Meh, it's just stats. If Kubo wrote it himself, I'd see little reason to doubt it.
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"To all visitors from Transylvania looking for the head of Voivode Dracula: Yes, we have it. Yes, he's dead. No, you cannot see it. No, he will not return and invade you again. It has been over thirty years, please stop pestering us."
That (Aizen stopping the sword with one finger) has more to do with Reiatsu/Reiryoku and not physical strength afaik.
__________________
"To all visitors from Transylvania looking for the head of Voivode Dracula: Yes, we have it. Yes, he's dead. No, you cannot see it. No, he will not return and invade you again. It has been over thirty years, please stop pestering us."
Last edited by Demonic Phoenix on Sep 29th, 2009 at 09:32 PM
1. PIS? How is it PIS? Grimmjow before that had not ONE showing under his belt, yet Ichigo losing to him was PIS? You have no idea what the **** PIS is, stop throwing the term around, classic case of "I don't like it, it didn't happen." The PIS is how all the Captains somehow magically became strong enough to take on the Arrancar.
Um, Byakuya had trouble with the seventh Espada, so we know he is not above Grimmjow, if he is on his level at all. Also, Vizard form is overrated. Srsly.
Personally? I think Kubo has no idea what the **** he is doing and cannot keep powers consistent, Grimmjow beating Ichigo was not PIS, but alot of other crap is, I would agree with that.
And then Kenpachi became strong enough to fight two captains, simultaneously, sealed. And then he beat Nnoitra. Fact is, newer feats take precedent over old ones, Kenny losing to Ichigo was the PIS, it is the low feat, whereas his general level of power is being able to beat Nnoitra, Tousen, etc.
Stop being a condescending ass.
The only PIS is Kenpachi ever losing to Ichigo, because every other feat is MUCH HIGHER.
...A technique? You mean holding your sword with two hands? The same technique which cut through all of Nnoitra's Zanpakuto and nearly killed him, all in one slash? Yeah...Dude no. If Kenny didn't constantly weaken himself in fights, he could have killed Nnoitra from the start.
Szazel was only "weak" because Kubo is an idiot and does not realise that there is more to combat than "T3H PURE POWA!!!" Szazel's powers were broken as hell, being able to damage your opponent's internal organs and the like.
He has proven to be one of the strongest captains.
"I don't like it, it didn't happen." Dude, it gets old. Kenpachi never goes all out against his opponents until he is critically injured, and this is Bleach. No one goes for a fatal blow right off the bat...Well actually that is not true, he pierced Kenny's chest, which did not detriment him in the slightest. I also assume you quickly forgot about Kenny being able to dodge the brunt of Tousen's sword strikes by feeling it touch his Haori?
Sajin was going to DESTROY Kenny? Lol, right, because his showings when he actually fought him definately prove that, amirite!? Like being slammed to the ground? Kenny was taken on both of them while sealed and they had their Shikai, and Sajin had some trouble with a friggin Fraccion, Kenny would destroy him by showings.
Right, because he was REALLY showing how in peril he was, right? Tousen's attacks did not slow him at all, not even the straight stab to the midsection. After that, Kenny destroyed Tousen.
So did near every Captain. Due to PIS for most of them, granted, but Kenny's showing against Nnoitra is more consistent than the one against Ichigo.
I said for plot purposes they were.
Who are you talking about getting injured now? Surely not Ichigo, who was nowhere near that injured.
Of course he has gotten stronger, nowhere did I say he didn't get ****ing stronger. Stop condescending, especially when you are in the wrong.
My point was that the amp was temporary, which evidence dictates it was.
He did not have to adapt to Ichigo's Reitsu to cut him, he had to against Nnoitra. There lies the difference, he was able to focus his Reitsu to cut the strongest Hierro of the Espada (Allegedly).
Because the feats that are more consistent are obviously PIS, right?
Gin has never really shown what he can do when he fights seriously. imo he was fooling around against Toshiro.
Toshiro is strong though, and he has the potential to become stronger than Kyoraku.
__________________
"To all visitors from Transylvania looking for the head of Voivode Dracula: Yes, we have it. Yes, he's dead. No, you cannot see it. No, he will not return and invade you again. It has been over thirty years, please stop pestering us."
Seems correct to me. What has Aizen done that shows his physical strength? We know Kenpachi is absurdly strong, physically. He said he doesn't use Shunpu because his legs are so strong that he can just move fast. That's absurd. No one in all of bleach can claim that cept Bankai ichigo.
In addition to what Demonic Phoenix just said, Ichigo just gone done getting a beat down and could barely stand.
Also, Kenpachi was at less than half his power. He powers up, with the patch still on, shortly after that. Then, he removes the patch. Powers up more. Then, he powers up again right before they clash swords at the end.
Ichigo, shortly after that fight and before he began his training with Yuroichi, was said to have captain level Reiatsu. Hardly a weakling.
Toshiro has the most powerful ice zanpakutou. Toshiro also damaged Gin in their little fight, whereas, Gin, did not damage Toshiro.
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Last edited by dadudemon on Sep 30th, 2009 at 05:00 AM
Good god, man. You didn't read anything I said before post this comment, didn't you? I explained exactly how it was PIS. *facepalm*
Um, Byakuya has the same as if not higher reiryoku as Kenpachi. On top of that, he fights smarter, is much faster, and is an expert on Kido. He's better in every way except probably physical attack strength. Hell, his skin was even hard for Renji, the same as Kenpachis. (lol) When Renji lunged forward at the very last bit, his sword broke on Byakuya.
So now you agree with my main point? Dude, make up your mind so I don't have to pwn you.
No, that's incorrect. Kenpachi's zanpakutou is in a constant release state, just like Ichigo's. NOT sealed.
And, to your second sentence:
You're joking, right? Logic and power continuity be damned, huh? No. That's not how I'm going to do it. My whole damn point is the PIS of the power continuity.
I will, as soon as you stop being an illogical fanboy.
You've gone back and forth between agreeing and disagreeing with me. Make up your mind.
Uh. No.
Tousen not killing Kenpachi is PIS.
And the fight ended before Sajin was about to utterly destroy Kenpachi. Please, stop this fanboyism of Kenpachi. He's my favorite character, but at least I'm realistic about it.
Kendo technique. Deal with it. And the fact that he was even able to keep up with #5 proves it was PIS, as I explained earlier. So, you sort of agreed with me there, as well.
That's why he ended up as an Esapda.
Against any captains Bankai, including Tousen's, he's weak as hell. He doesn't even stand a chance.
You assume incorrectly because I've referenced that no less than twice in this thread. He did his dodging well after Tousen made a few slashes on him.
Duh.
Not only is he rated higher, overall, in the databook, for the simple reason he has a Bankai and Kenpachi doesn't, Kenpachi would lose.
And, show me this MASSIVE "taking on both of them" fight you are talking about. I read the same thing you did, and he didn't really take on both of them...really, it was almost completely Tousen.
How is this comment even remotely a counter to this:
"All Tousen had to do was cut his head off at the very beginning of his Bankai technique. Instead, he slashed his back and then slashed him several more times just for what? To torture Kenpachi?"
You have that exactly backwards.
Ichigo improved greatly in his 2.5 days. Absurd amounts of progress, to be exact. He was barely able to fight to beat Byakuya. Now, all of a sudden, Kenpachi, who LOST to Ichigo when both were going all out, is able to keep up and even defeat an Espada that is stronger than an Espada Ichigo barely beat?
No, it's the exact opposite. You have in your head, incorrectly so, that Kenpachi took on two captains at once. He really didn't. It was Tousen almost the whole time.
What's horribly inconstant is Kenpachi or any captain keeping up with any of the Espada's...you clearly already admitted this. I don't understand why you keep arguing.
I have no idea what this refers to.
I have no idea what you're referring to. (I do, it's just so retarded that it can't possibly be a rebuttal to all of the injuries Ichigo sustained.)
This is your rebuttal to a strawman argument that I didn't even originally make a point for you to counter to begin with?
My point was that Ichigo got stronger. Then you used a very specific example as a rebuttal by saying his amp was temp. and his wound was closed up by zangetsu and that was the only time old man zangetsu has done that. My point was that you're really missing the point and it was by far, not a temp amp and that your extremely unrelated comment about the sealing of the wound wouldn't fly as a rebuttal. Now, try to keep up.
To say that was a temp amp is to be a retard. Every damn opponent Ichigo fights, he get stronger.
1. Ichigo was barely captain level during their fight. He was also scared, and had never fought a captain before. He was trying his best not to piss himself, much less, concentrate his reietsu enough to actually damage a reietsu beast like Kenpachi.
2. He DID get warmed up with Ichigo, as well. he amped himself when Ichigo finally cut him. I don't understand how that isn't getting more serious, just the same as he did with #5.
3. He amped himself up and was finally able to cut #5's hierro.
Only in your incorrect recollection are they consistent. In fact, you can't even keep yourself straight.
Feats that are consistent? pffft.
You self pwned right there. You forgot just a few sentences into one post what you had already said.
Remember posting this?
And very shortly thereafter:
Indeed. Forgot about that.
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Last edited by dadudemon on Sep 30th, 2009 at 05:42 AM
Blahblahblahblahblah... Oy you guys are all over the place here.
Okay time for me to blab about.
First off, Kenpachi IS NOT one of the weakest captains of the Soul Society.... Unless you're talking about his lack of variable skill-sets or those handbook stats.
I mean I've read this garbage downplaying his fight with Tosen and Kamamora... Just stupid really... Fact is both captains attacked him together with released Shikais while he hadn't even removed his eyepatch and the guy literally laughed at them for their trouble before handling them in a h2h fight at once, THAT is insane!
I'll readily admit that Tousen could have killed Kenpachi with that first strike after releasing his Bonkai, but that was the ONLY attack that he had during the fight which would have given him any advantage, from then on and before then it was all Kenpachi, who once again STILL had yet to remove his eyepatch.
We've seen Kenpachi hurt Myori's wrist with a nonchalont grab, who has also shown a bit of timidity towards Kenpachi, and we know that Kenpachi wasted the last squad 11 captain with one blow while the captain was using Bonkai... Weakest of the captains? You're out of your damned mind if you truly believe that.
And when it comes to Ichigo..... The guy is THEE WORST EXAMPLE of any character in Bleach to EVER use as a standard of evidence, period.
Any arguments for using Ichigo as such were tossed right out the damned window the moment, Ulq confirmed something for us that we had been seeing from Ichigo the entire damned series... That his powers bounce up and down all over the place, sure he may have gotten stronger since the start of the series but it's been pretty evident that he has no consistency with his overall growth rate.
The guy stopped a cero but got curbed by Renji who was only using 1/5 of his power, then he curbed Renji 3 seconds later. He was able to beat Ikkaku who was already a master of Bonkai and who Renji STILL literally bowed down to when it came time to find new captains to replace the missing ones, then he got to Renji and barely held his own up to the point his eyes hollowed out white.
C'mon guys even Yuroichi was having a hard time dealing with the fact that Ichigo's Bonkai training wasn't actually making him stronger. Which we later found wasn't his Bonkai's ability anyways.
His strength isn't consistent, so of course his performances are not consistent.
When it comes to the battle that he and Kenpachi already had.
Pretty simple, Kenpachi hadn't fought a worthy opponent in some time as he readily admitted, so his muscles weren't at their peak as they came to be during his duel with Noitra. And, by the time he took his eyepatch off he had already taken literally more than a dozen blows from Zangetsu which regardless of his ability to ignore the pain likely contributed to knocking him out later.
Fact is, Ichigo was working in tandem with his Hollow AND his Zanpakto during that fight.
Zangetsu flat out told Ichigo that he was giving Ichi all the power he had (which is the point of a bonkai release as it is).
Ichi's spiritual pressure took the form of a hollow mask, his eyes hollowed out white and his mask manifested on his body to protect him from the final blow... which Kenpachi met... with one hand....
To say Kenpachi holding back there is a "baseless argument" is just ridiculous, the only way you could draw yourself to that conclusion is if you knew nothing about Kenny's Kendo training... Think about it, using Kendo Kenpachi went from barely being able to keep up with the 5 Espada, to quickly one-shotting him. That's a VAST difference in power that really has no place being ignored.
Now quite frankly when it comes to baseless speculation the only thing I see fitting that category is this assumption that Noitra's rank wasn't befitting his power level when that was stated to be the whole point to their ranking system. Ichigo couldn't match Noitra in a confrontation and there's little to no evidencce whatsoever to indicate otherwise at that time.
At the end of the day you simply can't use Ichigo as a good guarge for other characters.
All that said... Against the form of Hollow Ichigo that Byakuya met in battle and the bounts etc, Kenny would probably get crushed. When Ichi's hollow is in control of his powers he clearly far more powerful than Ichigo himself has been able to display in combat. Both in the way he easily drew an advantage over Byakuya and when he choked out Hyori's hollowfied form.
Against Hollow Ichgio when Ichigo's in control, who fought with Grimmjow, Kenny would likely win.
And against the fully transformed hollow Ichigo he would also likely lose.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Last edited by jinzin on Sep 30th, 2009 at 06:42 AM
Not sure how you came to that conclusion when consistency says otherwise. Hanataro and Ganju were able to approach Byakuya from a few yards away while he was flexing his spiritual pressure, while both characters were knocked unconscious just from being within the same block as Kenpachi.
They both fight intelligently. Both are able to determine their enemies attributes and make accurate assessments in how to beat them. Kenny's quite perceptive as he's the only one to note Tosen and Gin's commonality.
Much faster? I dunno about that, maybe a bit, but Kenny's obviously been shown capable of dealing with Sonido and flash step (going by thread perameters)
And iirc it seemed as though Renji's sword broke before it hit Byakuya and he hit him with a stump...
I think he was talking about the eyepatch..
anyways.. as far as we know... In his captain's credit ending during season 2 his sword takes on the form of a water based release for a split second... It has no baring on the story obviously, but it should be noted every other captain ending had a bit about them to reveal before they had come into play for the plot, and every other one has come to fruition in one way or another.
No, it's CIS, character induced stupidity.
The PIS is Kenny being hit with that primary attack when it's immediately displayed afterwards that he can consistently react to Tousen's attacks and counter them too.
And just what in the blue hell makes you think this? Him getting handled by Kenpachi in a 2vs1 h2h or him having a mass issue dealing with fracion?
ORLY? Is this why he BEAT Tousen using Bankai? Or why he killed the previous Captain of the 11th squad using Bankai with one stroke? Why he beat the 5th espada using his Ressurection release? Or why Ikkaku regards Kenny as "an impossible goal" inspite of mastering Bankai? Because he "doesn't even stand a chance"?
For god sakes, anyone else would have to seriously try to be as arrogant as you and still be this ignorant... It seems to come naturally from you though, nicely done.
Which is why Tousen lost to him in spite of using it?
Or the previous Captain of squad 11?
Why Myori's afraid of him?
I mean we all know Renji and Ikkaku would utterly DESTROY Kenpachi "for the simple reason" that they have "a Bankai and Kenpachi doesn't, Kenpachi would lose".....
Seriously if you believe that then there must be an unopened bottle of subscription pills in your closet your doctor should know about.
This would be the same fight where he literally laughed off taking both of their full on Shikai attacks? The one where he parried both of their assualts at once and then batted them both away like children? That one?
Yeah, pull your head out of your ass.
K, how about this? All Kenny had to do was do what he did the entire fight and dodge Tousen's attack easily in response.
Consistency and ability dictates Tousen's first strike was CIS at play on both sides, it's an argument that works both ways.
No it was clearly not temporary which is why Ichigo was able to manifest Zangetsu during his Kenpachi fight and didn't need help to do so later on when he began his Bankai train---doh wait yes he did!
That's why Zangetsu has been able to manifest in every fight with Ichigo and help direct his actions and stop his wounds from blee--- wait no he hasn't.
They why Ichigo's pressure ALWAYS takes the form of a hollow mask when he's about to atta---- wait no it doesn't....
That's why Ichigo's hollow mask is always able to protect Ichigo from taking on serious woun--- wait that isn't right.
That's why Ichigo casually keeps fighting after his pulse has ceased to---wait didn't Inoue have to heal him last time that happened?
So every time Ichigo fights an opponent the opponent is stronger? Like when he fought Ikkaku and then fought Renji afterwards who hadn't yet mastered Bankai?... You mean like that?
Pffft.. how is that even a justification to assume that wasn't a temporary amp? Wanna talk about keeping up.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Last edited by jinzin on Sep 30th, 2009 at 08:43 PM
It is true the Kenpachi held back against Ichigo UNTIL he took his patch off and put everything he had into their final strike. Ichigo had a mortal wound. From what we could see, Kenpachi did not have any mortal wounds. He had some nice Gashes and a deep wound on his left upper body, but nothing mortal like Ichigo's wound.
If you want to argue the two handed sword strike, that's cool. Kenpachi didn't think of that until his fight with #5. Had he done that, he would have cut Ichigo in half.
No, Kenpachi did not fight Sajin and Tousen at once. He really fought Tousen 98% of the time with Sajin only preventing the killing blow. If you want to go by Anime feats, cool. That just makes it even more PIS. If you want to say that Kenpachi is physically stronger than Sajin, then I call BS on feats alone. Sajin was about to destroy Kenpachi with his Bankai. Tousen could have easily killed Kenpachi with his Bankai. Kenpachi certainly could not beat either of those two captains, even with his PIS win against #5.
Your claim that Ichigo used his hallow powers against Kenpachi are not completely unfounded as Yuroichi did find his mask on him after she rescued him. Fact is, both Ichigo and Kenpachi would have died without aid. Both passed out and both could not stand.
Kenpachi is very badass. Not as fast as some of the other captains, not as strong as Sajin by feats, etc. But he has one of the best combat ratings.
Thank God SOMEBODY else knows what I am saying, Jesus...
1. No you didn't. Just gave your own "I don't like it, it didn't happen" views. Grimmjow being much stronger than Ichigo is not PIS, everyone else get boosted to that level is.
2. Lol, and where did you get this ignorant conclusion? Byakuya's Reiryoku higher than Kenny's my ass. As Jinzin so generously pointed out, Ganju and Hanataro were fine under Byakuya's pressure, Kenny's sealed pressure was too much to even bare. Also, lol at Renji's sword breaking on Byakuya. Because it was not like Renji at this point was almost devoid of spiritual power, and severely injured, amirite!? Although really, it did not even touch his skin, his petals defended where Renji slashed. Byakuya fights smarter? Not by much, if at all...Kenny was the one to discover the flaw in Tousen's Bankai, and then won with little to no trouble. Byakuya is faster in movement, but Kenny's attack and reflex speed have shown to be extremely impressive. Kenny hits much harder. To emphasize on this, Kenpachi is the only Shinigami to cut through an Espada's Hierro without using Bankai (Except Renji cutting Szazel, but Szazel has shit Hierro). While sealed nontheless.
3. I agree there is PIS, it is what qualifies as PIS where our opinions differ.
4. Dude, if you are going to insult anyone's ability to read another's posts, make sure you are able to, it was so blatantly obvious I was talking about his ****ing eyepatch, Jesus Christ...
We are not talking about the entire Bleach power continuity, which is indeed ****ed. We are talking about one character, Kenpachi. Whose feat of beating Nnoitra was more consistent than the fight with Ichigo.
5. No, you're just nowhere near as intelligent as your arrogance forces you to believe and are unable to even see my point.
6. No, him not killing him from the get-go is CIS, I grant you...Kind of like how Kenpachi did not just cut Ichigo's head off at the start of the fight with his power released...In fact, every Kenpachi fight has CIS that only detriments Kenny. So yeah.
...Sajin was going to destroy Kenpachi? What feats of Sajin do you base this on exactly? Him being manhandled by Kenpachi when they fought, or him having to use his Bankai to handle a mere Fraccion? Yeah, you're talking out of your ass, Sajin is the weakest captain by showings.
7. Kendo technique amounted to holding the sword with two hands, nothing more. It wasn't PIS, because it is more consistent with his previous showing. You ***** about PIS, but all it really amounts to is you denying what happened for what you would have WANTED to happen.
8. Lol, I guess that is why he beat Tousen with his Bankai, amirite? Sealed nontheless. Tousen should have decapitated him with the first hit, true...But using what characters should do, Kenny should have just released and killed Tousen from the start. CIS works both ways.
9. Dude, if you ***** about that, you may as well ***** about every Bleach fight. Kenny could have killed Tousen start of the fight, FACT.
10. O RLY? So I guess that Ikkaku and Renji could beat Kenny too, huh? Despite the fact that Ikkaku sees Kenny as invincible, and impossible for him to beat? And stop referencing the ****ing databook as if it is worth a damn thing. Hitsugaya's overall stats are higher than Ukitake's, yet we know for a FACT that Ukitake is stronger. Kenny's are lower than both Tousen and Mayuri, but we know that Tousen lost to him and Mayuri is afraid of him.
Because Kenny clearly did not, effortlessly, and with one hand, block both of their blades, right? He clearly did not grab Komamura and manhandle him, right? Lol gtfo.
12. And Kenny could have killed both Tousen and Komamura at the start of the fight with his unsealed power, point?
13. Ichigo had a temp amp when he beat Kenny, and his fight with Ichigo is less consistent than the one where he beat Nnoitra.
Only he did, as I just showed you. He fought them both, was manhandling both, hell, he took Tousen's Shikai with no trouble at all.
When they got boosted to that level, it was inconsistent and PIS. When they stayed at that level, inconsistency stopped. You may not like it, but it happened and that is how it is.
14. All the "injuries" he sustained? So a little cut on his palm, a flesh wound on his cheek, a small cut on his forearm, and only one lethal stab to the chest, equal the large gash under Kenny's eye, and the two large cuts on Kenny's mid-section? Not to mention unlike Ichigo, Kenny's wounds were not closed up.
15. Okay now, I know you're kind of slow, but try to bear with me, okay?
Ichigo had a few things happen for him during that amp, that have never happened again. Zangetsu was able to block his wounds is the first one, and that is before he received even more power from Zangetsu and was something he has never done again, Zangetsu was fighting totally in tandem with him, holding his sword with him, something that does not happen in every fight, if ever at all, and his aura manifested itself into his Hollow Mask. All of these never happened again. But...We have to assume this amp was permanent, right?
The evidence is in my favor, to deny this is to be a butthurt fanboy.
16. 1. Granted.
2. No, no he did not. I just read the whole fight, this never ****ing happened. He never adapted his Reitsu to Ichigo. Shut up with that shit.
3. Yeah, kinda like what I just said.
17. And you once again miss my point again. For someone who is apparently so intelligent and awesome, you sure are slow, huh?
Also, I forgot to mention on my last post: you said something about hallow ichigo being part of that fight based on the energy face seen behind ichigo.
By that faulty logic, then Kenpachi was using his hallow powers too.
I posted the scan where it was said "as high as or higher" than Kenpachi. You can claim whatever you want, I'm sticking to the manga.
If you want to argue about something that you're clearly wrong about, that's fine. I wont' continue it. The mere fact that he goes on to say that Byakuya being the strongest head of the four noble families, EVER, should be evidence enough of his strength.
A berserker does not fight intelligently. You are also using Wiki too much.
We have slight intelligence from him: Using his reflexes to prevent himself from getting a mortal wound, and remembering his kendo training in a fight that he was about to get killed in. Other than that, nothing he has done in a fight was anymore intelligent than just using his reiryoku, reietsu, and strength that seems to be natural to him. He said that he didn't like to use tricks like that kendo one. He shies away from tricks.
No, I'd say absurdly faster. Much much faster.
But, get this, Kenpachi was able to keep up with #5 because he's so strong that he doesn't HAVE to use shunpu. His legs are able to make him go fast. This is another reason Kenpachi is my fave...he's just a f***ing hoss.
No, that's incorrect. Reread chapter 144. It broke ON him. Byakuya's spiritual pressure was so great and Renji so debilitated that Renji lost that ability to even cut Byakuya anymore.
Since we know for a fact that Byakuya's spiritual power is as large as or greater than Kenpachi's, we know that this is really what happened, not your botched up bastard interpretation.
His zanpakutou is already in it's released state. Regardless of what stuff was made up in the anime, it was stated in the manga that Ichigo and Kenpachi both have constantly released zanpakutou. That's the end of that.
His CIS, as you put it, is the cause of PIS, which is Tousen swearing he was going to kill Kenpachi, then not doing it in the first strike. How is that not utterly retarded? That was fully within his capability. Just as I asked before, was Tousen just trying to torture Kenpachi? That's not like Tousen's character to do that. It's just plain jane PIS.
Again, it wasn't really a 2 versus 1 match. Tousen pretty much did the whole thing solo.
And he handed that Fraccion his ass. That Fraccion also beat a character that is approaching captain level. (Ikkaku)
PIS (or CIS, as you put it) certainly cannot account for the logical fact that IF Tousen was really trying to kill Kenpachi and not dick around, he would have chopped his head off, first thing. That was my point. Kenpachi doesn't stand a chance against any Bankai, if there is no sort of CIS involved. (I like this CIS. CIS is the cause of PIS, sometimes, but I think I'll start using the two initialisms. hehe!)
Now now. Watch the personal insults.
For someone to willfully over look the point I made and then say what you just did above is ignorance. However, you DIDN'T miss my point, you commented on it, and later you said what you did just above. That's worse than ignorance.
If you think for an instant that Kenpachi stands a chance against any captain's bankai, CIS aside, you're just another blind fanboy.
They aren't captains, though. If they were to become captains, I'd say that they both would lose to Kenpachi. Well, depends. Renji may destroy Kenpachi with that blast thingie. But I don't see them beating Kenpachi, even with their bankais. Hell, some captains could beat Kenpachi with their Shikais. Byakuya(duh), Aizen(duh), Soi Fon(she's much faster than Kenpachi. Two strikes, he's gone), Mayuri(Mayuri was as fast as or faster than the genius level quincy. Plus, his shikai paralyzes upon contact. I don't see Kenpachi keeping up with a very fast captain AND using the quincy puppet technique that Ishida used), Yamamoto (duh), Ukitake(duh), and Sunshui(duh). Hell, that's most captains that could beat him in just Shikai form.
Now do you see why I said this?
Seriously. Most of your points have either been in direct contradiction to the manga, willfully missing my point about shit being PIS (CIS), or you making non sequitor arguments. Now you're making baseless ad hominem fallacies. This is not how you debate.
Correct.
And Tousen made the vast majority of attacks.
Sajin made 2 attacks.
Once he did his shikai attack with that huge giant arm. Then, he did a regular sword strike at the same time with Tousen. Sajin's reiatesu was destroying the ground around him as he flexed it. That's on par with Kenpachi. On top of that, the databook puts them, correctly so, as equal offensive and strength. Sajin has better strength feats, though. (He didn't and probably couldn't knock away Sajin's sword. Instead, he flipped Sajin over like some sort of ninja. That's why Kenpachi is badass...not your lame fanboy reasons.)
Also, are you trying to indirectly imply that Ichigo was stronger than both Tousen and Sajin put together? (At that time.)
Doesn't work that way since Kenpachi had no idea about the ability yet tousen did. We know for a fact that Tousen had to train at least 10 years with his bankai to get it right, per Yoruichi's comment to Ichigo.
Sorry, doesn't work that way. Kenpachi had no idea what it was. Tousen did. Tousen said he was going to kill Kenpachi. The fact that he didn't slice off Kenpachi's head was PIS. (Yes, PIS.)
It is definitely not an argument that works both ways. You're making a very invalid non sequitor argument.
None of those are counters to my point:
Ichigo gets stronger every fight. Ever last one of your points was a strawman argument and commits the same exact logical fallacy that I just got done explaining to Nemebro.
I wouldn't say "every", but, pretty much.
We've got that Guard outside seireitei. Then Ikkaku, then Renji, then Kenpachi, then Byukuya, then Grimmjow, them Grimmjoww again (cept Ichigo is vizard form and grimmjow is released), then Ulq. That's how it works. Every one he fought was stronger than the last. I am not including those he tried to fight right after almost dying such as against Aizen and against #5 espada.
So, what this amounts to is you throwing a fit. If you want to get pedentic, sure, Ichigo doesn't get stronger EVERY fight. I was referring to his major fights. Try to keep up. Don't argue semantics just to be right. Actually argue the point.
If you think Ichigo is relatively the same strength he was against Kenpachi as he was against Byakuya, you're a retard.
I wouldn't be grateful for his help, if I were you. He did a very poor job. You're doing 10 times better.
Cept, no. I don't like the fact that everyone was illogical boosted, not the boost itself. You yourself admitted that everyone got a PIS boost. I don't see what we are arguing about.
Fail. Contradicts the manga. Your entire point can and will be thrown out. Any logic you apply is the result of PIS from the author.
So, yeah, you agree with me. Cool.
Not really. Especially since your point #1 agrees with what I've pretty much been saying the whole damn time.
With all of the mistakes you've made, I'm allowed an understandable misinterpretation. I don't think of it as "sealed" or "unsealed". I think of it is "off" or "on" when it comes to the eye patch. In Bleach, sealed refers to zanpakutou. Forgive me for being logical?
I am. And in that continuity problem occurs a retardedly massive power amp for Kenpachi. He's a prime example of the PIS that I'm referring to.
Again with the personal insults? Ugh. Just take your licks like a man instead of getting personal about this shit.
Ummmmm. No.
Kenpachi's character enjoys fights. You can argue CIS semantics, but him not cutting off Ichigo's head from the begining was definitely not in within Kenpachi's character. He likes to enjoy his fights as much as possible. The bells and the eye patch are examples of this.
CIS, however, would greatly apply to a Tousen that failed to cut off Kenpachi's head, especially after giving us speeches about how disgusting Kenpachi was, how he wanted to kill him, etc.
Simple: Sajin's bankai is between 5-10 times stronger than his Shikai. Kenpachi dodged the shikai attack. What makes you think he even stands a chance against the bankai if you doesn't want to get hit by the bankai samurai?
There's also the fact that the databook says they are equal in strength. Kenpachi is more agile, I'll give you that.
And it was a fraccion that defeated ikkaku. Ikkaku is almost captain level.
Your favorite espada's fraccion were stronger than some of the Espada themselves.
Hey, you can downplay the feat as much as you want. It was still a kendo technique that Kenpachi hated to use. You can take up the idiocy of it with Kubo.
And, the opposite appears true. You're the one b*tching about things you want to happen and I'm just stating what was PIS.
It does not work both ways. *facepalm*
Cept, no. Not taking off his eye patch is within Kenpachi's character. However, tousen is a cold and swift acting character. He cut grimmjow's arm off with out warning, which, btw, was also a PIS move.
"Ummmmm. No.
Kenpachi's character enjoys fights. You can argue CIS semantics, but him not cutting off Ichigo's head from the begining was definitely not in within Kenpachi's character. He likes to enjoy his fights as much as possible. The bells and the eye patch are examples of this."
As I said earlier, "They aren't captains, though."
And, you can throw the official databook out. That's fine. More fanboyism?
"are you trying to say that Ichigo was (at the time) stronger than both Tousen and Sajin put together?"
And, Kenpachi used Sajin's strength and stance against him by throwing him. You'd have a point if he just knocked Sajin back, like he did to Ichigo. lol, your point fails. It only strengthened mine.
1. He probably could not have killed either of them. I seem to recall Tousen getting the first strike against Kenpachi. Tousen drew first blood. And, Sajin did his huge shikai attack thing as a diversion for Tousen to quickly end the fight against Kenpachi. They didn't realize that Kenpachi was so durable.
2. That's not in his character. To put it in your words, "all it really amounts to is you denying what happened for what you would have WANTED to happen."
See, I don't get this. Kenpachi gradually added power to his fight with Espda #5, just the same as he did against Ichigo. If anything, that version of Ichigo should have been able to keep up with #5 just as well as Kenpachi up to #5's release. (Cept, I don't see that version of ichigo cutting #5 at all...agreed?)
Getting stabbed by several blades is hardly "no trouble at all." Those blades went in several inches. This is the difference between my fanboyism and yours: I like Kenpachi for tanking obviously bad wounds that would kill most people or greatly debilitate others.
I agree with the first part, not the second part, and I agree with that last part. 2/3 ain't bad.
KMC Community Forums
Sep 29th, 2009 08:02 PM
The same technique which cut through all of Nnoitra's Zanpakuto and nearly killed him, all in one slash? Yeah...Dude no. If Kenny didn't constantly weaken himself in fights, he could have killed Nnoitra from the start.
"damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
