In the very fight we're talk about he makes board home in on Beta Ray Bill
It's already moving many thousands of times lightspeed on its current course, and using evasive maneuvers.
What are you even talking about? If you think you shouldn't use logic for one thing in Marvel but for other things what makes you the authority to decide that? Reacting FTL is hardly a new power, Surfer has been doing it practically since he was first introduced.
You think relativity doesn't apply at all in Marvel? If so the speed of light would just be another speed and hardly anything to even mention. In addition the universe would not even exist as we would imagine it....
BTW if you give me some time I'm pretty sure I will be able to find a reference to relativity in Marvel.
Learn the difference between a scientific theory and a hypothesis. A scientific theory is more than a law, it's a body of knowledge that explains how something works.
BTW another proof is that without relativity black holes wouldn't exist, yet they do in Marvel.
There's nothing indicating they slowed down, so the burden of proof is on you.
Considering the distance it is covering even in a small fraction of a second that is very impressive for Surfer to continue to track it.
Granted but the speed is already so high that even a minor turn will cause a vast change in position in a very small timeframe.
No, it's because of relativity, because of the warping of spacetime.
Actually I brought it up as a comparison to the ship.
I said before that keeping up with the ship is the same as following a bullet when it is fired and running circles around it while fighting another guy at the same time.
Exactly ... however what these people don't realize is that the two concepts are actually one in the same. The anti realist rules that allow writers to ignore the laws of physics also allow them to make up power levels, and ignore consistency. My point is getting worked up about the latter, while ignoring the former is really hypocritical !!!!!!!!
I already know he and Thor can make the hammer home. I thought we were referring to blasts. Doesn't matter how fast linearly it was moving. It was moving 0 speed in their reference. The moment it steers left SS could be right there with it. I never had anything to do with the writer throwing logic out of the window. I'm just saying that being able to move FTL doesn't mean that someone must have extra sensory abilities other than plain sight. If you disagree then you are not disagreeing with me but the writers. False. Relativity has nothing to do with the actual speed of light but that its speed is a constant, nothing more. And there are two theories of relativity, Special and the General. The Special is the one not widely accepted not the General one. Special relativity has nothing to do with the General theory which is accepted by all (if not most) physicists. Black holes can exist without the Special Theory of relativity being true. Also Theories can be and has been proven false. Today the Universal Law of Gravitation is being questioned. Nasa is right now testing whether it holds. The fact that they are a bunch of mines everywhere proves that they slowed down. What the heck are you talking about? It's logically impossible for a ship to dodge a cluster of mines with nearly no room between them faster than light. Surfer does have super human reflexes. I never denied this. He also has cosmic awareness too. This wasn't my argument. Only to a human. But someone who is capable of always catching up it isn't a big deal. Surfer has super reflexes so the first microsecond it starts to steer left SS would steer too. Thus it wouldn't get very far. And SS can easily catch up. Special relativity has nothing to do with the notion that light must have a maximum speed. It solely builds the notion that the speed of light is constant. Well then this makes that argument weak if not invalid. Circling something that is in the same reference frame as you doesn't imply one can fight at or above light speeds. Right now I can fight someone and keep up with the Earth. This is because it is standing still in my reference as is the bullet.
Except in less than a second it would be billions of kilometers away from where it would have been had it kept the same course.
So like I said, you are ignoring logic when it doesn't suit you and applying it when it does. You say their relative velocities are the only important thing when comic writers tend to ignore that too a lot of the time.
The point is that if there was no relativity why would people even talk about the speed of light any more than, say, the speed of an average asteroid or comet?
Both Special and General relativity are scientifically confirmed beyond the shadow of a doubt. In addition General Relativity was developed after Special Relativity, and was built on the previous work. You don't know what you are talking about.
This is the exact opposite of what you just said earlier.
General relativity is, in its most basic form, just special relativity modified to incorporate gravity. You can't have it without special relativity first.
Um, what? Newton formulated the Law of Universal Gravitation. It holds true in most cases but it was superceded by Einstein's theory of general relativity, which is the theory you are arguing against.
So basically what you're saying is:
"General relativity is unreliable, just because it's a scientific theory doesn't mean anything. After all, scientific theories can be proven wrong, just like Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation, which was proven wrong by Einstein's theory of General Relativity!"
See how you shot yourself in the foot there?
Yes it is, if the ship is fast and maneuverable enough. And it did. So it is. Surfer did too, BTW.
Combine those two and you get the capability to fight at FTL speeds. This isn't difficult.
Which means he is reacting at FTL speed.
Which is part of the essential nature of the universe. It's not, as you seem to be suggesting, that there is some strange force in space that slows things down, and if it were removed light could go at infinite speed.
So if two guys ran around a bullet and fought each other while it was in flight, they wouldn't be fighting at above sound speed?
A bullet would not be standing still from your reference point
Superman can make his fists home in on SS's face. It's an attack, it counts.
Also in less than a second it could be 10 feet away. 'Less than a second' is ambiguous. Like I said SS does have superhuman reflexes. But it takes more than that to fight at lightspeed or above. The actual speed of light has nothing to do with Special relativity. Special Relativity is built solely on the assumption that the speed of light is constant, not that the speed of light is what it is. Maybe I don't what I'm talking about but at least I know this: The speed of light being constant is not only nonsense but it runs into all sorts of contradictions. For example it would violate the 1st law of Thermodynamics. Energy could be created from nothing.
And I know this:
Verifying phenomenon with a theory doesn't prove the theory true. It is possible to get something right for the wrong reasons. For example, hundreds of years ago there well several theories developed and verified for many quantities. But now those theories were proven false by super computers finding exceptions (large numbers which make the theory false). If Relativity is not neglected in Marvel then it would take Thor infinite strength to swing his hammer exactly the speed of light. And if Thor has infinite strength then no one could be stronger. Yet we know of some who are stronger than Thor. Thus we reach a contradiction. So the assumption Relativity is not neglected in Marvel must be false.
You are most likely right about General Theory building on Special Theory though. I will ask my Physics professor if the General theory is built without the notion of the speed of light being constant in all frames of reference. If it is then I don't believe in it, as I won't accept that the speed of light is constant. Not really. I don't believe in Relativity. My point was that theories are not necessarily true. I'm not claiming that theories are necessarily false. Neither am I claiming that Relativity is unreliable for our practical purposes. For reliability as nothing to do with whether something is truth It is total speculation to assume so. So I play the role of the skeptic and say 'we don't really know'. That way I have no burden of proof. Not so. The other stipulations must be followed as well. Remember fighting at lightspeed or beyond doesn't just mean being able to fight while traveling lightspeed or beyond. No it means he is reacting very fast. Whether he is reacting FTL depends on how fast the ship was going and how far the ship moved away from Surfer when it turns. Remember the panel doesn't show everything. No. light could be slowed down but this doesn't make it constant. For example, scientists recently slowed light down to 50m/s yet time remained the same. If two fought on Earth while running around a pole then they are fighting above sound speed too. Remember the bullet's relative velocity is 0 so this isn't a big deal. If I'm moving with the bullet then it is, nearly the same as was SS with the ship.
That's a melee attack, not a ranged attack. Stormbreaker isn't connected to BRB's body when it homes in on a target.
But if we're using extremely small fractions of a second that already demonstrates really high speed and reaction times.
Right. It also takes enough movement speed, the ability to perceive things faster than light, and attacks that are fast enough to hit something at that speed. Surfer has all of that. So I don't see the problem.
You're missing my point. If it were not constant, then there would be no reason to refer to it so often since it would be changing based on the circumstances.
The speed of light in vacuum is constant. It can be slowed down by moving through certain types of material.
How so? BTW Quantum Mechanics already proves energy can be created from nothing but only on a very small scale and it disappears almost as soon as it appears.
Except he uses magic to get around that. Superman also punched at the speed of light yet you claim relativity exists in DC.
Let's try this: Why would Einstein be referenced in Marvel comics if there was no relativity? Einstein is famous mostly for his work on relativity.
I can smell the set-up of an appeal to authority fallacy here. Just be advised that if you come back and claim "my physics professor said I'm right" don't expect me to buy that. You would need to give his/her name, credentials, and some proof that he actually agrees with you.
It's obvious that our current theories of physics aren't 100% complete, otherwise there would be no point in further scientific research in the first place. But just because they aren't absolutely 100% perfect doesn't mean you can dismiss them whenever you want.
Except we can clearly see them avoiding the mines.
It does if the other guy is moving at comparable speeds and you are both dodging attacks.
I have a question for you, when Flash and Zoom were fighting around the earth and circled it dozens of times in less than a second, do you consider that FTL fighting?
It reached another star system in at most hours, likely minutes.
That doesn't mean you can just assume there are things it doesn't show that prove you right.
I don't see what this has to do with what I was saying. The speed of light in a vacuum is constant.
They have to catch up with it first. Just like Surfer did with BRB and his ship.
Who care's if it is a ranged attack. You said 'attack' thus it counts. Pick your words more carefully. Beyond human yes but lightspeed, maybe. One must be able to instantly move their torso and limbs at least light speed in which SS can't do. One must be able to defend against lightspeed attacks from 5 feet distance (mano a mano). The speed of light being constant means that it is the 'same' in all reference frames (which is nonsense). If I'm moving away from a beam of light at half of lightspeed then no way in hell would it go past me at lightspeed (but half of light speed). It is not constant in any frame or medium. No! This energy I'm referring to would not disappear. And I don't believe in most of quantum mechanics either.Well this is decent evidence but I still have my doubts since it is not found in the actual comics. I only dismiss them when they are built on nonsense. That part is true but how fast is open to opinion. Only the writer holds the key to the truth. Fighting at lightspeed or beyond implies:
1. Being able to achieve lightspeed 'within' battle normal distance.
2. Being able to move torso and limbs at least on par with light.
3. Being able to respond to light speed attacks launched within close range.
It is iffy if Surfer can do any of these. It is arguable whether he can do 1. He can't do 2. and he can most likely only do 3. from a distance greater than 10 feet. Well maybe he was. But from the scans it seems as if he wasn't, but merely moving in the same reference frame as the ship. In other words, the ship's relatively velocity to him was near 0. I'm playing the role of skeptic so I'm not making any claims. I'm just challenging claims that's all. Light in a vacuum has nothing to do with my reply to what you said. Please reread what you said and then what I said. Correct. But once you do then it's fine. As you accelerate from rest to the bullet it would appear to move slower and slower.
Remember, light travels around 30 centimeters in a nanosecond. He moved his arms more than that.
I can show you him flying in circles around Deathurge at faster than light speed.
So far experimental evidence confirms this though.
It would appear to move past you at lightspeed, due to the time dilation you would be experiencing from moving at such a high speed. That is the point of relativity.
Yes it is. You think you know better than Einstein and all of modern science?
Then publish a paper in a peer-reviewed journal and win a Nobel prize by refuting it.
Actually it is. Marvunapp.com simply collects information that is printed in the comics. It even gives the issue numbers where the information is taken from.
Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's nonsense.
There is no indication that they slowed down. Implying that they did when it was not shown violates Occam's Razor, as it adds an extra term when a simpler explanation without that term is available. So the burden of proof is on you to show that they slowed down.
Proven already.
Proven already.
Proven already. Although your third condition is rather strange, as if your first two conditions were met then the only way the third one could not be met is if the person was unable to perceive things at faster than light speed, so you should have just said that instead.
See the scan above.
Didn't we go over this already? They were performing evasive maneuvers.
Yes but your challenges take the form of "What if there was some other factor we didn't see that was affecting things?" That's an inherently meaningless question. You might as well say "What if invisible magical dwarves were helping them fight at lightspeed but normally they can't?". There is no evidence for such a thing.
I said that the reason lightspeed is the limit of speed in the universe is because of the way the laws of physics are arranged, not because of some mysterious retarding force in space. You responded by saying light could be slowed, and I pointed out I was talking about the speed of light in a vacuum, also known as c.
And you deny that doing this in the first place demonstrates significant reaction? To track the bullet and keep pace with it means you are moving and reacting faster than sound. Just like tracking and keeping pace with the ship means you are moving and reacting faster than light.
The way magic works is it bypasses the laws of physics. The fact that he has to use a spell to get around the laws of relativity indicates that they exist in the first place. Otherwise that spell would be pointless.
I disagree with character's words and regard it as hyperbole if they contradict other evidences. I've seen nearly all of Surfer's best feats, even the one you are claiming so there is no need to show me. Again that one has Surfer talking that he can exceed the speed of light. Doesn't mean that he was. But even so then how long did it take him to reach it from rest (1 sec?). Of course SS has light speed reflexes and can travel faster than light, but can he cover the first 10ft in the same time that light could?
No it hasn't. Light is too fast to even for current man to verify that is is constant in a moving frame. The fastest man has ever traveled was about 17000 miles per hour. This is unnoticeable when compared to light (far less than .01% of the speed of light). Man has no way to actually verifying it. (Unless they invent a manned object that can achieve at least 30% of the speed of light) Of course time dilation. Utter nonsense.I'm working on it now. Seriously! I didn't see where it quoted from the comic. It could have just given a summary in its own words. Sometimes. But in this case this is nonsense because we would reach a contradiction. And it is logically impossible for contradictions to exist in a well defined scenerio. There is no motion in comics. So one couldn't know when something slows down or not (unless it is stated). It is just a still picture. They could have slowed down or not. I'm not implying anything (so I have no burden). I'm merely saying we don't know the truth. Surfer wasn't ever shown to cover the first 10 ft from rest in the same time (or smaller) that light could. Thus it isn't proven. Maybe he can though. It's just not proven yet. Hyperbole. Needs more evidence (like from a narrator or against something that is known to move light speed or better). Also limbs are one thing and torso is another. One must also be able to move their torso (like twist) at light speed in addition to the limbs. Close range is under 6ft. I'm not giving reasons of how something is being achieved. I'm merely pointing out that it is unknown whether something is happening (or can happen). There is no reason to give as to why something is unknown. It's just is.The way the laws of physics are arranged limits the speed of light and thus there is a natural retarding force going on. If the permittivity of free space was smaller then what it is now then light would travel much faster than it already does. It is theorized that the permittivity of free space was smaller many many years ago than that light was faster then. No, humans can gain up to super sonic moving objects with their own reflexes. If X is moving 500m/s and you are accelerating to it then it will eventually appear to be only moving 50m/s from you and you (a mere human) can adjust accordingly (slow down).
He was less than 10 feet away from Deathurge and accelerated to beyond lightspeed in a circle around him. Really if you are just going to dismiss all of the evidence shown against you it's pointless to argue.
You deny the existence of time dilation? Then I don't really know what to say. You're pretty far removed from reality, I don't see the point of arguing with you anymore. Have you ever used a GPS device? They incorporate relativity and time dilation into their functions.
Until you're done with that perhaps we should suspend this discussion.
You could check for yourself. Old FF comics are collected in anthologies that are easy to find. I believe on this board that providing an issue number to reference is considered sufficient evidence.
There is no contradiction, using common sense there would appear to be but relativity and quantum mechanics require thinking in a different way than normal. Have you taken college courses on relativity? If not, I don't see how you have the necessary knowledge to attempt to criticize it. Granted I have no college education on relativity either but I'm not the one attempting to say the whole thing is bullshit.
We don't know the absolute truth but we know the likely truth. We know they were moving at FTL speeds, there is no indication they slowed down. Therefore, assuming they did is unparsimonious.
Here he moves from a stationary position to cover light-years in seconds:
Here he accelerates to FTL speed very close to Deathurge in a circle:
Why wouldn't he be able to? His speed doesn't extend only to certain parts of his body. You are just adding more and more conditions to try to dismiss the overwhelming evidence against you.
And you can just decide on this arbitrary number because you get to make the rules, right? It still doesn't change my point.
Missing the point, you are proposing extra factors for which there is no evidence, that is pointless.
No, this does not follow. The speed limit in the universe is c because the laws of physics are set up this way. If it were increased then radioactive decay rates of elements would greatly increase, pretty much killing all life on earth due to the heat being released, in addition to the extra heat from the sun.
Citation please. This doesn't make sense to me because the universe has been expanding since the Big Bang, the further back you go the more densely matter and energy were packed, which would create more obstacles to prevent light from moving freely.
So being able to do this to a bullet in flight in seconds is not sound speed reaction? You are simply splitting hairs and attempting to disqualify everything with the most ridiculous nitpicks.
No he wasn't. First of all he didn't start at rest but moving before he circled Deathhurge. Second, it is not know whether he achieved light speed before or after he finished his sentence.
You deny the existence of time dilation? Then I don't really know what to say. You're pretty far removed from reality, I don't see the point of arguing with you anymore. Have you ever used a GPS device? They incorporate relativity and time dilation into their functions.[/B][/QUOTE] That's right u should stop arguing. Because I believe time dilation is false and that man is both liar and neanderthal (for not understanding the nature of the universe). I've studied the michelson and morley experiment and find it the conclusion atrocious to the actual findings. There was an effect (I have the data here). It was just very small that they ruled it insignificant. But light moves that fast that one couldn't notice the effect in a very small setting. Also all modern books and current data have an Earth day at about 23hour and 56min. That means we are off by 4 min everyday according to our watches. That means in 3 months it would be night (dark outside) when it is day time. So maybe GPS is accounting for this instead of some relativity garbage. Or man is hiding something from us. Who's assuming anything but you. I'm not assuming but merely saying "I don't know". I've seen these scans. You misunderstand me. I didn't say that SS could cover a light year within a few seconds time. I'm saying that it isn't proven that he can travel the first 10ft from rest with at least an average speed of light speed. Actually after calculating the light year feat I found that it took Surfer more than 5 times as much time to cover the first 10ft than it would take light to do. This is assuming is acceleration is constant. Can you twist your waist or turn around as fast as you can swing your arms or kick out your legs? What i'm saying is very relevant. I'm referring to the range where h2h usually occurs. Thor, Thanos, and some others would definitely engage Surfer in close combat as he would need to be able to react to attacks thrown from less than 6ft away. The only factor I'm imposing is the null factor (that we don't know). Do you know? If so then prove why you know. Because I certainly don't know. What does this have to do with what I said? Who cares of the consequences. I'm saying that the permittivity of free space limits the speed of light, nothing more. Also many many years there wasn't any life on Earth so what you said doesn't defeat the theory that the speed of light in free space was greater back then.Read the book "Faster than light". You can find it at a bookstore for about $10. The physicist who wrote it is tenured at Oxford (or MIT I can't remember which one). Sound speed reaction is being able to react to something moving at the speed of sound relative to you within battle distance.
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Oct 27th, 2009 07:43 PM
