I read over it, and some of it look pretty impressive, but not enough to constitute a win.
Galaxy Gun destroys Earth/other major planets of ST.
The end.
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
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All you've done was just basically described them as fighters who have little need of food and sleep and can continue fighting. You haven't actually described there actual capacity to fight in battle. Something that bears a lot of relevance
For one thing. It doesn't. Second here is the real quote itself:
For one thing, he does not say Star Destroyers. Meaning that the official numbers cannot be established by someone who is demonstrably wrong about the capacities of the Empire. The thousand ships figure could also mean damn near any ship of any kind, especially when considering that he sets the implication that the ships would have to possess a higher caliber of firepower.
The Dreadnought class ship in question recieved several refits during the course of time when they have been obtained by Thrawn
And an ISD is weak against a Borg cube.... how exactly? If species 8472 has demonstrated anything, its that a sufficient magnitude of firepower beyond the realms of Borg adaptation is enough to overcome the Borg. Something in extreme ample supply for SW.
Again, you are assuming that Star Destroyers are the only ship that consist of the Imperial Fleet. Although the numbers of the Borg would hardly matter as the ISD has enough of a massive firepower disparity that a few of them can sufficiently slaughter the Borg en mass.
All those many species, don't even amount to terribly huge numbers either. The Cardassians for instance can only field about 15 warships, 63 cruisers, 352 fighters, 188 frieghters and 443 ships on a per year basis. On the other hand the galactic empire was capable of producing 1250 Star Destroyers per year and 2 death stars within 5 years.
Which is to say nothing about how many they actually produce, merely the speed of which they are produced. Star Wars on the other hand, have the sufficient means of production that allows them to field a large number relatively quickly.
Ketracel White. They still do need some form of nourishment otherwise they go insane >_>. And while clones do require the need for rest, food, sleep and water, it still does not necessarily make them inferior to the Jem'Hadar in terms of combat and technological performance. Which is really going to be THE huge determinant factor as to who would win in any given battle.
Do they need to be? Considering their equipment, its hardly a necessity for their basic biology to be above that of a human. Hell a chimpanzee is the physical superior to the human being but a well placed gunshot will bring it down.
So the presence of a force that has a high volume of blaster weaponry(the same capable of blowing out chunks from ferrocrete and blasting droidekas in half) isn't superior? And this is of course, not counting the land based military vehicles that would be deployed.
It would give them a sufficient advantage. Had it not been for the fact that storm troopers helmet can actually detect cloaked units.
Fleets do it less than one hour. A single one, takes several hours as per the Imperial Sourcebook. And this is conventional turbolasers mind you. The same that is usually shooting back at enemy spaceships.
This is where I direct you to the Voyager episode: Scorpion Part II. Where 13 bio-ships were destroyed and as a result, retreated back to their own universe despite having a superior advantage and practically having their enemies by the throat.
X-wings are capable of traversing a 400,000km distance within 5 minutes. Hell the Death Star was capable of velocities of 2.4 million km/h.
In terms of engagement ranges, as per the star wars: complete cross sections :
The reason you don’t see these kind of engagement range in the movies is mainly because its better to fight at point blank range so that the enemy is denied the ability to mobilize all their guns to bear upon the enemy.
And when did I mention Star Fleet in that post? I’m asking for pretty much the whole of trek. Again, how standardized is transwarp that it is sufficiently distributed throughout the fleet(or any fleet for that matter) to actually be able to respond quick enough to any Star Wars offensive that would simply FTL deep into enemy territory, bombard a planet and BDZ out of there fast enough for Trek to respond?
Actually it’s still all on you. After all you made this claim without even providing any immediate specifics:
You did however, continue to bring up that source as if it was the golden means of disproving my point so naturally of course, I would ask for specifics.
Last I check they were described as a direct energy weapon
Yeah. Shields. And ones that aren’t frequency based either like the ones in Trek.
Power magnitudes had a lot to do with it. Otherwise, species 8472 wouldn’t have rolled over the Borg so easily when it did. And Trek Sheilds are still highly prone to being weared down under stress of sufficient firepower even with shields on. Really now the only real relevance of frequencies is figuring out how to bypass the shielding.
Not well enough if 6 months of fighting 8472 has made them suffer heavy casualties. Something I’d also expect to happen when going up against Star Wars.
Its ok. Turbolasers are quite sufficient enough considering pure raw power can well enough screw over the Borg well enough.
Theres also an instance of planetary debris hitting a Borg ship and destroying it well enough. Picards Tommy Gun is quite very applicable enough as well considering that the holodeck merely imitates the physical property of the gun in question.
Considering that in AOTC, a Clone trooper’s rifle was able to blast a Droideka in half, it is certainly consistent. There is also the instance in ANH where the Crawlers tracks were blown out by Imperial Blasters.
I know damn well enough that it’s not above Hyperion or Culture….. Unless of course you’d actually want to debate otherwise… >_>
Care to cite examples?
I’ve cited official manuals and episodes to back up my claims and given specific movie examples. Hell I’ve even given other EU examples as a means of argument. If for some reason that doesn’t constitute an argument even by the standard of reasonable people, then that’s merely your shortcoming.
Again, you're betting all your chips on a one-trick pony. That weapon isn't indestructible, the ST universe has potentially hundreds of thousands of worlds.
The Scimitar mentioned above could come at it cloaked, uncloak behind it and kill everyone inside in seconds, with it's radiation weapon.
Destroying planets doesn't affect the ST universes battle capabilities because most of it is in space anyway. Besides how to you aim for and hit a planet you can't see givin that ST has the ability to cloak entire planets?
Strawman argument. Besides industrial sized replicators have been seen anyway. Used specifically for making large engine components etc. So yes, weapons can be replicated.
So a clone's rifle is the same as Han's blaster now? How do you explain Leia taking a direct hit and receiving nothing but a graze on her arm?
A low power federation phaser (the small hand units as opposed to the larger, more powerful rifle) can blast through 10 feet of solid rock...Bit more impressive than a few inches of metal
I take it you're referring to the incident with species 8472? Bit of an odd argument given that the ship that was destroyed had already taken massive damage in an attack from a species 8472 bioship and was left without shields or propulsion.
Do SW employ projectile based hand held weaponry? Is it known that the Borg suffer losses from most weapons before analysing and adapting and is it therefor reasonable to assume that had Picard tried that trick again, the Borg would have adapted
I wouldn't be taking the ST manual as an infallible source of information. It states that Breen hand held weapons have only kill settings but several times in DS9, people take direct hits from them and survive.
I've cited tons of examples of ST weapons that you've had no counter argument against. Start showing me what SW would do to counter those weapons and perhaps you'll be onto a more plausible argument. I've already PROVEN that the Borg can adapt to weapons by frequency regardless of power. Have you shown how SW would prevent being hit by phased weapons? Have you countered the fact that weakest federation torpedo (the photon) is more powerful than the most powerful nuclear weapon ever.
Certainly. In Q-who (next generation) the Borg used transporters that passed straight through the shields of the enterprise.
In DS9 episode "the Jem'Hadar" the Dominion had transporters that passed straight through shielding.
Bit of a silly argument, most of them eh?
Yes, we all know the Borg consist of assimilated Species that had males and females. Are these genders utilised within the species or are they bypassed by cybornetic implants. Well we know they use birthing chambers and not natural pregnancies. Regardless...What actually is the argument he's trying to make on that point anyway?
He then argues that the Borg can't adapt to any weapon despite the fact that they clearly assimilated Hirogen, Klingon and many other species (clearly indicating that they've easily adapted to their weapons in order to assimilate them). Not to mention the fact that it's mentioned countless time that they can adapt to any weapon.
The point about the tractor beam? So what if it can only be used at short range. The whole point of it's use isn't as a weapon but as a means to stop and allow for the assimilation of ships. Not to destroy them (Pretty self explanatory why it wouldn't be used IN A BATTLE then isn't it)
The vast majority of the rest of the points are completely irrelevant to this debate.
Makes my point stand even more doesn't it?
I'd say someone who makes his living smuggling things across the galaxy and avoiding the empire would know them well enough.
Lets go back to the quote "The entire star fleet couldn'f destroy the whole planet"...Yet 9 small species 8472 bioships could. And there's an entire universe of them to put into the fight.
They were made before the clone wars and were lost in hyperspace on their 1st voyage. So how it could have been outfitted? Oh and my mistake. It wasn't 500 ships...It was 200.
There's no mention of the mechanism that species 8472 employ in their weapons so making baseless assumptions is silly.
You have zero proof of this. We've seen an imperial star destroyer being incapable of destroying the millenium falcon, which is effectively a piece of junk.
We've seen areas of ships take direct impacts from turbolasers which have only caused minor explosions in hanger decks etc.
We've also seen a fully armed SD take an impact from a small asteroid that has sheered of and destroyed a huge chunk of the ship.
The 1st death star was already well into construction when Luke and Leia were born but wasn't operational until they were fully grown up. Your time lines are WAY OFF.
Evidently nowhere near as quickly as the Dominion. Which was my point.
No...seeing as i've already shown a minor phaser shot is far more powerful than SW rifles. I've not even mentioned the transporter rifle which fires a projectile and then transports it to either inside an enemy target or just outside ready for impact...in other words, unstoppable. And this is just the federation weapons.
Biological cloaks? Don't think they've even sniffed that kind of technology before.
You were the one who said "i won't go into specifics". In regards to countering my points, you still haven't done so...Please do.
Also read the thread. You'll like it.
The federation, the Borg and the Voth all have transwarp drive, The Borg also have the transwarp hubs. Transwarp isn't a specific technology but merely a piece of terminology to indicate in advance beyond warp technology. The entire Borg fleet utilises it. Only a small number of Federation ships had utilised it (including one that reached infinite velocity). Unsure about the Voth though.
You do realise BDZ is the bombardment of a planet and can take an entire fleet days to do it? In many cases people have escaped planets under BDZ bombardment. Can you see them doing the same to an attack by species 8472?
By a weapon that SW can manufacture?
You're thinking of a "phaser"...Not a "phased" weapon...Difference....Idiot.
Are you deliberately being obtuse? Shields don't work on weapons that phase out of space/time because the weapons don't exist on the same plane of existence as the shields until they rematerialse at their target. It's not difficult to grasp.
The relevance of frequencies is how the Borg adapt to direct energy weapons. It's mentioned countless times in ST and it's why the Federation alternate phaser frequency to make them (slightly) more effective. So no. It has nothing to do with bypassing shields. The Borg have several other weapons for doing that.
Again, you have no evidence for what it is about species 8472 weapons that makes the Borg succeptible to them. It may have nothing to do with magnitude. Even if it does, it's quite clear that the magnitude of their weapons far outstrips anything the SW universe has and so they would win on their own.
Raw power is completely ineffective against ablative armour. Still haven't answered that point (or any of the others i've made)
Jaden101, you are ignoring the fact that an old Aclamator ship has BILLIONS of times the shielding and hundreds of thousands of times the firepower of the Enterprise D.
And first of all, prove that ST will be able to cloak every major planet in time, and even then SW will still be able to use life detecting sensors to find the planets.
Also, the book Star Wars: Death Star at one point mentions replicators, which suggests that Star Wars has them too.
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
Democracy is the very definition of awesome.
I'm ignoring the fact that you keep trying to use the enterprise D as somehow the best that ST has to offer.
Big deal. It has projectile weapons. They're still useless against Borg shields. Given that we know Borg ship shields adapt to projectile weapons then it's safe to assume Borg personal shields do too.
If you can use hyperbole arguments with no basis in canon such as that star forge can produce thousands of galaxy guns then I can just as easily say that every planet in the ST universe can have a cloak (which hides life signs...one of the actual points of having a cloak in the 1st place)
Well done, they have replicators...Care to elaborate on what they're used for?
Do they have transporters that can be used for tactical deployment of weapons or troops
?
Do they have time and space warping weapons?
Do they have weapons that can destroy everything in a radius of 5 light years?
Do they have fleets of ships that can destroy planets in seconds?
1 ST race would wreak havoc on the SW universe. The Krenim with their time ship. They could simply go back to when each and every deadly weapon that the SW univserse has to put into battle and change the events so it never exists in the 1st place.
I'm not, but the Aclamator isn't either. They are both rather low level ships, and the Aclamator is MILLIONS of times more powerful.
Prove that the Borg can adapt to anything. If Galactus were to come, could they adapt to his Power Cosmic?
wtf? How is that a hyperbole argument? It's true that the Star Forge can use raw resources from the Sun to produce a nearly unlimited amount of items, so why not apply that to the Galaxy Gun?
It is never specified.
No. Does Star Trek have blasters that can blow a half meter hole in solid (forgot material) from 10 KILOMETERS away? Besides, transporters are easily messed up by stuff.
No. Does Star Trek have the Force?
No, but with the Star Forge they can make a fleet of Galaxy Guns.
Wait...they had a fleet of World Devastators, which not only destroys planets but drains their energy/resources so that they can be used for stuff, so yes, they do.
Does Star Trek have a ship with guns that have the energy of millions of gigawatts?
Getting desperate, aren't you?
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
Democracy is the very definition of awesome.
The Acclamator is a war ship. The enterpise is a science and exploration ship. Bit silly to even compare them in the 1st place.
Even then the enterprise would still win because it can hit the acclamator at 10 times distance meaning it would never get touched in the 1st place.
(please log in to view the image)
That's an image of 1st class canon ranges of the OLD enterprise against a new star destroyer.
And i'm the one getting desperate?
Did it churn out galaxy guns? No
So it's a hyperbolic argument. You're asking me if certain weapons were prolific within the ST universe...Was the galaxy gun?...No. Hence if I was to apply the same logic then as you are saying there could be thousands of galaxy guns then I can counter that with the same logic and say that the ST universe can cloak every planet.
Hahahahahaa..."messed up by stuff"?...Do you care to elaborate on your rock solid argument?
And yes. Star trek has phasers than have realigned tectonic plates and burrowed to the cores of planets from orbit. It has hand held weapons that have burrowed through 10's of feet of solid rock (low powered weapons at that)
Wait..I positive I asked if they had fleets of ships that could destroy a world IN SECONDS.
From the world devastators wooki page.
So...uuuhhh...Your real answer is "no".
Evidently it does given that it has ships which destroy planets in seconds (which takes fleets of star destroyers days just to melt the surface of a planet and not completely obliterate it)
I do love how you get your figures from stardestroyer.net which makes some utterly baseless and contradictory claims of the power of turbolasers based on a star destroyer shooting some asteroids. Saying they must be made of iron because of their "rusty red" appearance, not taking into the fact that iron requires oxygen to rust and there isn't any oxygen in space.
The accuracy and range of these guns are not on par though.
It makes up for that with the fact that it drains resources that can be used by SW.
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
Democracy is the very definition of awesome.
Last edited by Hewhoknowsall on Nov 12th, 2009 at 07:57 PM
So it doesn't matter how powerful the shields are because the weapons exist outside the shields space and time until they are INSIDE THE SHIELDS.
All the Enterprise would have to do is stay outside the SD's firing range and launch a couple of phased torpedos and it's bye-bye star destroyer.
The figures are from both stated and shown in the films/tv shows.
And you're the one trying to disprove the point by introducing a God like being (something you disallowed in your OP) from an entirely different franchise into the argument. Shall we stick to SW v ST and bring in God like being...ala Q and the Douwd?
So every star trek planet can't have cloaks because they weren't all shown to?
See how your argument works?
And vice versa. If you want to employ your idiot logic.
Care to use a non biased website or do you still insist on using a reference i've already proven to blatently lie?
So what makes up for the fact that in the (say 3) months it takes to destroy a single planet, that species 8472 could destroy (by my simple calculations based on based on 10 seconds per destruction of planet)...some 762,000 planets
What also makes up for the fact that in the months it's taking to destroy a planet, the world devastator itself would be easily destroyed?
I have a strange feeling that you are not telling the complete truth. Wouldn't have these phased torpedos have rendered armor and shielding obsolete?
My point is that the Borg's assimilation/adaption abilities have limits.
I never said that they don't. I ASKED you if they were capable of cloaking every major planet before SW can detect them.
And no, the examples are different. If they could easily cloak every planet, then why didn't they do that when an enemy force was coming every time? On the other hand, the Star Forge was destroyed quite a while before the Galaxy Gun was invented, so they couldn't have done that.
I was using YOUR logic.
Stop trying to discredit a website simply because it's biased. You're biased too, so does that mean that everything that you say is wrong?
If you assume that they can magically travel to, appear in front of and fire at a planet instantly and continuously to this without being fired upon, yes.
No, world devastators are very well protected.
And what were the responses/rebuttals to those quotes?
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
Democracy is the very definition of awesome.
So far the only species they've been unable to assimilate is species 8472.
I don't believe there's anything to suggest anything in SW in on their level. Biologically, the Borg consider them the apex of evolution.
Which was my point. We're either using the technology from all eras of each universe (meaning that technology from all the timelines can be combined in theoretical applications and uses) or we're using only the way these technologies were applied and shown in canon...i.e one galaxy gun...1 star forge making whatever ships it made. the canon number of ships mentioned...etc.
How am I biased? I've already blatently admitted I actually prefer STAR WARS over star trek. I just recognise that ST has far more advanced and powerful technology and weapons.
Even if they were fired upon, what's going to damage them? Nothing SW has shown could even hope to scratch one of their bioships.
Is this just another random statement that you hope is fact and that I won't know about?
They were destroyed by a simple computer virus (something that ST have employed a number of times) Stands to reason they'd manage to do it to them without having to use weapons.
So, can you show me a source that talks about these phased weapons?
I've already showed you a link that talks about this, it's not that long, you can just skim over it.
Well, I don't think that we should allow in alternate timelines, aren't there an infinite amount of them?
And Michael Wong stated that he liked both SW and ST. He simply likes SW a little more and recognizes that they're superior in war tech.
And you get this from...
By a computer virus yes, but ST will have to have a powerful enough computer virus and figure out a way to download it into the world devastators without getting blown to bits.
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
Democracy is the very definition of awesome.
I'm not talking about using alternative timelines. I'm talking about using technology from all throughout each respective universes time span at once and combining the tech abilities. (Which is what you were doing by saying to use the star forge to make galaxy guns). I simply employed the same type of argument to the ST universe in saying that if you could do that then ST should be allowed to have all planets cloaked (because the tech exists to cloak planets)
And he's wrong. Just because he has a website doesn't mean it's full of facts and credible information.
Onscreen feats. I've seen a turbolaser hit an unshielded hanger deck and cause a minor explosion. How this equates to millions of gigawatts or gigatons of whatever other nonsense you wish to try and employ is beyond me.
Which brings up another point. You only need to look at the battle of corascant to see what ranges the SW ships fight at. ST ships fight at warp over far longer distances.
Read first, never says anything about phasing through space-time, infact in the first sentence it says that it fires beams...
Read second, apparently only 20 were ever used, and why weren't they used again?
Read third, were delivered by alternate timeline and we aren't allowing those, plus it doesn't really talk about its destructive power.
I don't ignore your links. I just didn't like it that you expected me to scroll through 23 pages. I don't expect you to scroll through 23 pages.
What is actually shown, yes.
Well I'm trying to prove that it is.
You are making a statement without taking into account the durability of such hanger decks when no shielded.
??? And so do SW ships
Overall, Star Wars wins.
Industrial might: Star Wars has a million years worth of resources from a galaxy. Star Trek has a few thousand solar systems.
Numbers: Star Wars spans almost a million years. ST spans just a few hundred.
Ships shielding: Already discussed
Ships firepower: Already discussed
Fighters: ST rarely uses fighters
Blasters vs Phasers: Have phasers ever punched holes through durasteel-level materials from 10 kilometers away before?
Armor: ST rarely ever uses armor.
Artillery: ST never uses artillery
Armored vehicles: ST never uses armored vehicles
Superweapons: Star Forge + Galaxy Guns = victory for SW
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
Democracy is the very definition of awesome.
Last edited by Hewhoknowsall on Nov 12th, 2009 at 10:03 PM
You really shouldn't make such an a statement considering you have no idea what you're talking about.
What does "millions of years worth of resources" even mean? Star Trek spans across four galactic quadrants, ie a galaxy. At least learn the basics, before you make judgements.
That is irrelevant, considering the advancements (which you continually ignore from Jaden's spost) ST has over SW. By that rational, the Roman Empire could beat the United States, they existed for about 500 years, US is under 240.
I'm saying a turbolaser battery struggles to damage an unshielded hanger deck...Let alone a shielded (in some cases multi-regenerative shielded) starship.
You really are THAT THICK aren't you?
Time span has NOTHING to do with it. It's tech level.
Yes you've discussed shields and weapons. Unfortunately you were beaten in those discussions. You failed to address any of the weapons I talked about.
So again...Counter them point for point.
Weapons that can pass through shields because they don't exist in the same space/time
bioships that number in their thousands and potentially billions given that they have an entire universe and can destroy Borg shielded planets in seconds.
Weapons that completely dwarf in power, anything the SW has shown...namely the multikinetic neutronic mine....that can destroy an area thousands of times bigger than a solar system.
Do you have an answer for any of them? Do you have a SW equivalent for any of them that even remotely measures up to their destructive capabilities?
If not (and we both know you don't) then how can you claim that SW has superior weapons?
Yes...ST has basic phasers that have punched to the core of planets from orbit.
ST rarely uses armour? In what sense? The Borg have both ablative armour on their ships and personal shielding on the drones.
And, as someone already said in the other thread, ST EU has huge amounts of ground forces within it's EU canon.
Superweapons.
Multikinetic neutronic mine...far more powerful than anything in SW
Xindi superweapon...planet buster
species 8472 bioships...planet buster (and potentially billions of them)
Reman Scimitar's thaleron radiation weapon (can destroy all life on a planet)...The ship itself has a perfect and undetectable cloak...52 disruptor banks and large numbers of torpedo bays.
Krenim time weapon...Could wipe out all timelines that led to SW superweapons.
Are you still not going to counter these points with anything other than your blind love for SW?
Because SW exists over a million years, then, based on the parameters for this debate (which take into account ALL of each universe's history) SW has every soldier, weapon and ship over a million years.
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
Democracy is the very definition of awesome.
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