The Vong line of novels went on waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too long. It should have only lasted 8-10 books.
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If SW was invading the ST galaxy force powers would not be possible. Seeing as the force resides within the SW galaxy exclusively. Qui-Gon himself says that the Force binds the "galaxy".
Half of the argument basic people have been using is that they'd have knowledge of each others technology. But in reality, there's not guarantee that either universe uses similar energy types in weaponry.
And going by peoples main arguments, it seems like either side - with prior knowledge of this epic "war" - would go for the element of surprise with the big guns, i.e. Krenim Time-Ship and Centerpoint Station etc.
Because their galaxy was all they know. It's like how we say "the whole world". There's more than ours. The Yuuzhan Vong existed within the Force in their own galaxy until their homeplanet decided to take it away from them. So no, it exists outside their galaxy.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
Warp and Hyperdrive are difficult to fathom. Warp is distance traveled in multiples of the speed of light. Hyperdrive is an alternative dimension that allows fast travel across large regions of space - using string theory and a tonne of other theoretical quantum principles.
Warp speed can differ depending on where in a region of space a ship is. Each region of space has a different "Cochrane Value", meaning warp speed can drastically change - despite light being a constant and regardless of actual warp factor.
Hyperdrive can take a ship anywhere in an uncertain amount of time again. It's been said hyperdrive can take anywhere between a couple of hours to a couple of weeks to traverse.
As I suspected, you didn't bother to actually refute my arguments.
Explain to me why you think that ST shields are superior when they can barely
stop flying debris while SW shields would be unhirt by our entire nuclear
payload.
Also explain to me how any species otherthan the Borg or species 8472 would even be a factor when their warp would take decades to get anywhere relevant.
Last edited by Freedom888 on Sep 18th, 2010 at 04:10 PM
Gender: Male Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
No. What killed him was Luke Skywalker and Leia interrupting his concentration with a force attack, seperating him from the control over his force storm. Sidious has used the storm to destroy the surface of Coruscant, teleport Luke Skywalker from Coruscant to Byss and destroy a nice amount of rebel ships before. That thing is far more relieable than you make it seem.
Who cares? This is the entirety of the SW history, which features 7,000 years filled with Sith Lords, some of them far closer to Sidious in terms of force mastery, than the few Dark Jedi that served him during his second rule (which is the era he utilized the force storms in).
Entirely irrelevant. The SW universe has more than enough Sith to do the job without needing one Jedi to participate in the action.
First it needs sufficient control over the force to make it happen, which most people apparently lack and then, we have never seen a force storm conjured accidentally. Just because a warp core can technically explode, you wouldn't call them unrelieable. Would you?
Since when is any of them dependable?
Red Matter is described as "highly unstable" and "dangerous" material and while we know, what it can do, we don't know how it's produced and how much of it actually exists. Yet when the giant blob of it that was on board of Spocks ship exploded, it didn't cause too much demage besides destroying the Narada.
The Multi-kinetic neutronic mines are totally overestimated here. I mean hey:
Math for beginners: You have a circle that is 120,000 lightyears wide. You use some weapon that can destroy 4 x 4 lightyears. Can you fill the area of the circle with 30,000 of them? Obviously not. Using 30,000 of those weapon would result in a 4 lightyear wide corridor spanning through the width of the circle. Self-proclaimed calculation genius jaden101 couldn't figure that out...
Since the SW Galaxy is 120,000 lightyears wide, it has a radius of 60,000 lightyears. The surface of a circles is defined as Pi * radiusē. That means the SW Galaxy has a surface of 11,309,733,552.9 square-lightyears. So even ignoring the fact that Galaxies aren't two-dimensional objects, it would take 282,743,380 MKNMs to destroy the SW Galaxy. Since one of that things requires 50 trillion nanoprobes to assemble ("VOY: Scorpion II"), which was beyond the performance of the Voyager-Borg-cooperation in a short period of time (hours? days?), I guess building that much mines (or even 12,000,000 - one for every inhabited star system) would take centuries or millenia.
And this is, by the way, following your completely false interpretation of the on screen evidence. Seven of Nine says such an devise would be enough to destribute nanoprobes over a radius of five lightyears, not to destroy anything in that area. And Tuvok actually stated that the yield of that weapon would "affect an entire sun-system", which, again, doesn't mean "destroy it completely".
On a sidenote: Given that I'm already dealing with your brilliant calculations, would you be so kind to explain how you managed to figure out the meaning of "isotons", a typical ST technobabble term that is used with a variety of meaning throughout the show(s)?
I mean, hey: In "VOY: Living Witness" a photon torpedo with a 25 isoton yield is enough to "destroy an entire city" (which would be compareable to a 25 kiloton Nuclear Bomb). Suddenly, in "VOY: The Omega Directive" a charge with a 54 isoton yield should be enough to destroy a small planet. Yet, somehow, they needed 80 isotons in the very same episode to destroy the harmonic resonance chamber (a possible room sized containment system for Omega monecules). Then in the episode "A time to stand" of DS9, a 90 isoton yield bomb hat a blast radius of 800 kilometers. Obviously, they toss that term into the show, without giving a flying ducky about establishing any kind of definition for that term - in the fictional universe as well as in the realm of reallife physics.
And, just to point it out: "Your" calculations seem to be taken from the ST: Technical Manual which contradicts the shows at several occassions and is, in general, a totally not canon issue. Are you so desperate to win this debate, jaden? Apparently yes, considering this gem of logic here:
Right. Lets take the single exception for the rule, ignore further evidence and argue from there. Do you know what "bias" means, jaden?
First: The Ysalamiri do not exist outside the force but use it to project a bubble in which force energy is neutralized. ("Heir to the Empire" and "New Jedi Order: Destiny's Way"). So while they seem to be unaffected by it, they actively use it? There goes your "argument".
Second: The Yuuzhan Vong came from another Galaxy and they once were force users, before their home planet servered their connection to it. They still had force users among their ranks (Omini) and also could be affected by the force ("New Jedi Order" series). Likewise, the Nagai, coming from another Galaxy also were able to use and affected by the force ("Star Wars: Legacy"). Even Waru, a trans-dimensional being from a parallel universe was affected by the force and able to use it ("The Crystal Star"). And, of course, we have "A new hope", in which Kenobi clearly states that the force "binds the universe together". I didn't hear "the Galaxy" there, which would obviously be a false limitation, provided the examples above. And since you happen to be keen to interprete characters sayings as absolute gospel, the force affects anything present in the universe (which, as the term "universe" suggests, is "everything").
So the only "logical" thing to do here, would be to assume that the force will affect beings from the ST universe as it does affect beings in the SW universe.
And even if you want to assume it wouldn't affect them directly - it would still kick their sorry asses in the form of force storms that consume entire fleets ("Dark Empire"), Sith magic that causes stars to go supernova ("Fall of the Sith Empire"), or Aing-Tii trained Jedi and Sith teleporting themselves into the ST vessels and cut down anybody they see with lightsabers ("Fate of the Jedi: Omen"). And considering that this is "the entire history" of the SW universe, you have 1000 generations of Jedi and 7,000 years worth of Sith and Dark Jedi (including three Sith Empires) to do the job.
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Sorry for the double posting, but this caught my attention:
Transwarp travel was said to typical happen at about 35.000c and an estimated maximum of about 60.000c, which is still laughable compared to common SW speeds.
See above. They are still slower than SW vessels.
Which doesn't help too much, provided that their dimension has a limited size compared to the normal Galaxy and they can't use faster than light travel inside fluidic space...
No limit fallacy.
Why should we assume that the Borg are even capable of assimilating a Star Destroyer, when they were totally incapable of assimilating Species 8472 or even Data ("First Contact"). And this is already ignoring that they would need to board a Star Destroyer to do the job, which might be impossible (shields) and even if they can do it, they would be confronted with a shitload of armed forces on such a vessel, ranging from normal soldiers over stormtroopers to battle droids or Jedi and Sith.
Then they would need to communicate the gathered information, which might be impossible, considering the fact that the SW forces usually utilize heavy jamming technology.
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All the ways you wish you could be, that's me. I look like you wanna look, I **** like you wanna ****, I am smart, capable, and most importantly, I am free in all the ways that you are not.
I forget which book it was, but I love the part where Luke and Mara are fighting the Vong back to back. Also Anakin Solo's first fight with them. Epic.
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Good God, Nai. I felt that ownage through the screen.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
The nanoprobes had nothing to do with the assembly of the MKNM...The mine was the delivery mechanism for the nanoprobes. So your argument utterly fails on that point.
Granted Isoton is a poor term used in ST because of it's variances but similar if not worse discrepancies exist in the SW figures compared to what is shown on screen. As I've already pointed out.
If we're using the force as some all encompassing and almost without limit power that can be applied to and used to destroy anything that I take it we can include beings with the same power and influence from the ST universe?...Therefor being such as Q and the Douwd would be valid and quite clearly would vastly over power the force. As stated previously, Kevin Uxbridge would merely "think" every force user out of existence. Game over.
I'm the one who stated the tech manual is neither canon and conflicts with the show and is also completely out of date...So best you revise your argument or actually read the threads in their entirety before making foolish comments like that.
Transwarp is merely a term that means faster than warp. Examples of it have shown ships travelling a quarter the way across the galaxy in a matter of seconds...How is this laughable compared to anything that SW has shown?
I could also bring in the examples of SW vessels flying at speeds which took them to the edge of the known universe in about a minute...
I don't recall the size of fluidic space ever being given.
I also don't recall it ever being said that they can't use warp tech in fluidic space. It certainly isn't ever mentioned in Scorpion pI or II.
How does a force storm affect something that doesn't exist within space or time?
Actually it's not. Nothing that a SD has is anything different from tech that we know the Borg have already assimilated. Species 8472 were considered "The apex of biological evolution". Comparing their tech to that of a SD is completely pointless.
I'd love to see the quote where I say i'm a "calculation genius".
As I said, I've not read the EU, so I had to go with what was posted.
What was posted, implied that Palpatine died to his overconfidence on the use of force Storms. Someone else already stated that others were the cause.
Since when are they not reliable? They're weapons and they tend to work they way they're designed. A drop of that "giant blob" created a singularity that destroyed a planet, not just the surface of one.
It created a super-massive black hole when it exploded. Stands to reason, if a drop can consume a planet, "the blob" could do much more if used correctly. Though it'd make more sense to use it in small amount and not one shot.
Hyperdrive does seem to be superior in ship travel.
Species 8472 lives in a universe of liquid space.
No, not a no limit fallacy; your comparisons here to imply that the Borg can't assimilate SW tech is faulty.
(feel like a broken record)Species 8472 was both from a different dimension and highly advanced from a biological standpoint. Though Borg nanaprobes eventually were able to defend/attack against Species 8472 bilo-tech. Data angle was PIS in the film, though the Queen grafting skin onto Data showed that his tech wasn't something they couldn't overcome.
What reason is there to believe a Star Destroyer's tech is beyond the Borg's ability to adapt and assimilate? It's tech and the personal on board are [mostly] human. Check and check, the Borg have adapted too many a time.
Borg have shown more often them not to bypass shields, given their ability to adapt. Storm Trooper's blasters, droid fire and whatnot would be adapted to after a couple Drone kills. Jedi likely prove difficult though. But there up to a few hundred thousand Drones on a single Cube, so they can afford loses, as they simultaneously add to their ranks by assimilating personal.
Jamming technology is still technology, the Borg adapt, this is their strength.
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Wow. Just wow. Do I have to point out that you ignored this information and turned the mine into a weapon capable of annihilating anything in a four lightyear wide radius? Nice way to gloss over your mistakes.
Or nice way to gloss over the total logic fail this weapon represents:
a) To distribute anything over an area of several lightyears would, you know, take years at sublight velocity. Obviously, they were looking for a weapon that could do the job faster.
b) If that thing was to generate an explosion to do the job: How would that not destroy the nanoprobes that should be distributed via that thing. And when it doesn't destroy nanoprobes, how is it going to damage massive, shielded starships?
Apparently, that thing is a special device constructed to destribute material at warp speeds.
And you don't want to tell me that the 50 trillion probes are the actual "load" of that weapon? You know...if you distribute that amount of probes over a four lightyear areal (assuming a sphere) you would get one nanoprobe (a microscopic robot) in a field of several square kilometers. What do they want to hit with that? A planet? A moon? Certainly not a space-ship.
No. What you've done is working with false assumptions, with the biggest one being that you have ever seen the heavy turbolasers of a Star Destroyer in action in the movies. You realize that the heavy guns are mounted to the sides of the Star Destroyers tower. Now give me a single scene in the movies, where they could have been used. You realize that the Millenium Falcon (ANH, ESB) and the Tantive IV (ANH) are both only attacked while flying relatively below the Star Destroyers pursuing them? So nobody did ever fire one heavy turbolaser at one of those ships or an asteroid.
So what you've pointed out is your lack of knowledge in terms of SW ship design, but certainly no discrepancy in the SW figures compared to what is shown on screen.
Your weapons-range argument was even better. Just a few thousand kilometers for SW, when we've seen in ESB, that Death Squadron did consider to bombard Hoth from a standard orbit (36,000 kilometers) when one of the ships was clearly hit by the ion cannon before even able to close in to the mentioned distance? Applause.
This kind of argument doesn't work because of two very clear facts:
a) Force users in the SW universe aren't omnipotent beings. They can be killed, sometimes even rather easily. They vunerable. Omnipotent beings are not.
b) The more deceissive fact is: You want to use those beings without giving a flying ducky about their character design. Uxbridge was horrified by his own action after he commited it. Yet, in your plot, he would just do it again - to an entire universe? Yeah. That sounds totally right. And the Q? They don't give a flying ducky about most mortals, but they will side with them in some war with other mortal beings? But of course. This explains why the Q helped the Federation to destroy the Borg long ago...oh...wait a second. That didn't happen? Guess why.
The force users, on the other hand side, are mortals and do have a lot of reasons to fight for their own lives or the governments they either rule or support. Much like the Jedi.
Nice words. And then you still use it to reach a conclusion for the 600+ Gigaton weapons. Did you really thought nobody would spot it? The only way to get there is to take the density of Antideuterium (which is just present in the total not canon tech manual) and use it for calculations. Because, otherwise, you'd have to accept that the maximum theoretical yield for a photon torpedo was 25 isotons which is defined as a 1.5 kilogram matter/antimatter reaction ("VOY: Living Witness"). But this would leave the most destructive common weapons in the ST universe with a yield of about 64 megatons. Not enough to win the debate, eh?
If that isn't the case, I'll happily read your explaination how you reached the "600+ gigaton" conclusion. You can either link it or repost it. Should be an easy thing to do.
Really? And what examples would that be? You know: Presenting proof does usually include...presenting proof, and not just stating that it exists somewhere. So give me your "examples".
I think you mean "ST" vessels, and I bet you can't do the job without mentioning an intervention of a nigh omnipotent being that made them archive those speeds. That doesn't help your case.
Gosh.
I'd love if you'd educate yourself on the topic you want to argue. It's said and demonstrated that warp tech can't be used in fluidic space. The Voyager and Borg move around in the realm with impulse speeds only and so do the Species 8472 bioships.
And you don't recall the size of fluidic space given, but know that it is as big as the galaxy or "an entire universe" a the same time? Interesting? The fact that Species 8472 seems to consist of far less individuals than, just for example, humanity and the fact that their operations are exclusively happen in the Delta Quadrant and the fact that the Borg were patrolling the boarders between the Galaxy and fluidic space ("VOY: Unimatrix Zero, Part II") seems to suggest that fludic space is far smaller than our Galaxy.
The force storm actually creates something like a black hole. The original source ("Dark Empire") describes the ability as "ravaging the fabric of space-time itself". And the Krenim time-ship does not exist within normal space-time. Obviously they have time passing on the ship (otherwise they would be "frozen") and obviously they also have "space" present, because they don't exists as transcendental beings. Dropping them into a black hole - or rather than that: dropping that thing on them - might still cause their instant death. At least it would make it quite hard for them to get anywhere else.
That besides the fact that your commiting the error of ignoring character design again using the Krenim time-ship. Why should I follow an argument that has the crew of a ship wiping out the Star Wars universe? You see: They don't have any information about the history of the SW universe. So they need to do research. Even equipped with that knowledge, they can't accurately predict what their changes to the timeline will cause (as seen in "VOY: Year of hell"). Even if they could do that, they would need millenia to gather information, millenia to reach their targets, millenia to carry out their plan and then the same time again, because the SW universe features beings from three Galaxies. And that should be done by the same crew that gave up after the original 200 year mission?
Sounds reasonable to me. Not...
No. What is pointless is comparing an SD to Borg technology.
I could start with the fact that SW vessels are made of raw and refined materials that aren't even present in the ST universe. The refined materials are produced using methods not known in the ST universe. How are the Borg going to even understand them or replicate them? Yet, you still assume that they can simply do the job. And that's a "no limit fallacy".
And thanks for ignoring my arguments regarding the other problems the Borg would encounter when trying to assimilate a Star Destroyer, without even mentioning the obvious ones presented above. Since when does ignorance win debates, jaden?
How often did you use the phrase: "My calculations prove..." in this very thread, jaden? Considering the above demonstrated math fail, your calculations might not be worth the virtual space they consume.
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As I already stated: We have no idea how that material is produced and how much they can produce of it in what amount of time. So we'd have to go with the stuff on board of Spocks ship, which could be destroyed by destroying Spock's ship. Which shouldn't be to hard to archive.
First: See above. There is no way the Borg would even comprehend SW technology in the first place, because it's entirely different from stuff in the SW universe.
Second: You're bolstering your already commited no limit fallacy with another no limit fallacy. "The Borg can adapt to anything." SW blasters don't have any "frequency" to adapt to. They fire a charge of ionized gas at their target which then explodes. There is no way that the Borg would adapt to it unless they can adapt to blunt kinetic energy, which they can't (demonstrated countless times). Fact.
Third: We've seen Jedi disabling entire armies of droids with a single force attack ("disable droid" in the KotoR games, Mace Windu at the Battle of Ryloth in the SW: The Clone Wars series). Jedi have also been seen to disable nanobots with the force and remove them from the blood-stream of a person attacked by "nanokillers" (Mon Mothma in the "Jedi Academy" trilogy). And we've also seen Jedi resisting the mind-controlling effects of something similar to assimilation (nanobots turning the victims into technological zombies).
So technically, the Jedi can destroy Borg by pointing their hands in their general direction and are probably able to reverse / resist assimilation. How would the Borg react to that? Run or die?
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"Dear God, what is it like in your funny little brains?"
How did I ignore the information?...You're the one that stated that the nanoprobes were necessary to build the weapon...They're not.
They were looking for a way to inflict the most damage as quickly as possible...Logical.
Which can bring us full circle to your initial incorrect point that it would somehow take a huge amount of time to build enough weapons to have any decent effect on the SW galaxy. You claimed that the Borg cube and Voyager's combined efforts took a while (can't remember the exact length of time...I'd need to watch the episode again)...Combine the Borg's entire collective "will" to create a weapon similar (Could be nanoprobes...Could be some other manner or disabling star destroyers).
That's millions of cubes, trillions of drones plus the combined efforts of all their planetary based drones....Logic dictates it wouldn't take a huge amount of time to create millions of MKNM's.
As for how they would affect SD's...Take your pick. It's not like the SD's have any type of technology that the Borg haven't already encountered similar versions of in the ST universe. The Borg have even assimilated non corporeal beings from other planes of existence. I hardly think energy shields are going to be of any great difficulty to adapt to given the multitude of times they are seen doing it on screen in Voyager and Next Generation.
In TNG: The Wounded, a photon torpedo was shown with a range of just below 300,000km
A class 6 torpedo in Voyager had an effective range of 8,000,000km
So what were you saying about my weapon range argument?
The Q, by their own admission, aren't omnipotent...Immortal, yes (Do Jedi that exist as force "ghosts" become effectively immortal?...serious question as i'm not sure)...capable of instantly travelling anywhere in the universe, yes...But not omnipotent.
But we're discussing which fictional universe would win...Not the moral implications of whether or not they would fight or use their powers. Logic would dictate that the likes of the Jedi would easily come to an understanding and peace with the Federation...Given both their apparently willingness and openness to such things. So arguing that a certain species wouldn't get involved is a bit pointless really and could end up a never ending debate of just who would fight and who wouldn't....regardless of who would win if they did fight....You could potentially get another entire thread as long as this and the other SW v ST threads.
It's not the theoretical maximum yield at all...In fact it was the type 2 photon torpedoes from the original series which used only 1.5kg of antimatter. Unless you're trying to claim that ST weapons haven't advanced at all since then.
This is stated where? Episodes please. I recall from Scorpion that a fleet of bioships converged on Voyager and were going to take about 3 hours before they arrived. It didn't state their distance or velocity.
Voyager endgame...Voyager uses transwarp to travel from the delta quadrant to the alpha quadrant in seconds.
TNG: Where noone has gone before. The traveller enabled the enterprise to travel to the edge of the known universe in about a minute.
Voyager: Threshold...The Cochrane achieved infinite velocity because of a rare form of dilithium that stayed stable at extremely high warp.
I do love how I have to present proof for my argument when you merely stated that SW was faster and ST speeds were "laughable" in comparison.
The traveller was a mortal humanoid.
Something like?...Elaborate.
Still not convinced that a black hole that ravages space and time would effect something that exists outside space and time though.
But yes, obviously time does pass on board the vessel but it has no effect on the crew or the ship...rendering them immortal.
Really don't think it would take anyone millenia to find out what are key planets and where they are. They also wouldn't have to accurately predict what would happen as they know it wouldn't affect themselves or any other ST species because their timelines have obviously never interacted.
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Sep 18th, 2010 08:17 AM
