I'm talking about the two going head to head, Thrawn's fleet against Kirk's. Thrawn would wipe his ass with Kirk.
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Thrawn was annoyingly talented. I get Zahn was making him out to be a tactical genius, but... absolutely destroying the enemy just by looking at a piece of their culture's art? Overkill.
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Agreed. Heck he come off as omniscient in Outbound Flight when he managed to get everyone at one place at the same time by guess work... It was rather annoying and I couldn't help but wonder how he knew Jorj was going to betray the Chiss and how long it would take for Outbound Flight and the Vaagri would arrive.
That was the point I think, to show how absurdly ahead of the curve he was.
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Absurdly being the key word. They really overdid with him.
Ah well, he got stabbed in the back in the end. Didn't see that coming.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
Well, his downfall was that of many "villians", his overconfidence. He thought he had Rukh fully in control.
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Uh-hu. What you "explained" is, that they might be able to assemble many of that devices. What you have ignored is the fact that it was never said it would destroy anything in a 4 lightyear radius, just distribute nanoprobes over that area in space. And since it wouldn't destroy the probes, the destructive ability can be questioned.
Your point?
The Borg have assimilated non corporeal beings? Nice way of interpreting information. You're talking about Species 259. The compiled information we have on that are those sentences from Seven of Nine ("VOY: The Gift"):
"Beyond your comprehension"
"Galactic Cluster 3 is a transmaterial energy plane intersecting 22 billion omnicordial lifeforms."
Gosh. You concluded that the beings where non-corporeal from what part of this huge pile of information? Oh. Let me guess. Your own imagination? In which you may also have an answer how one does assimilate non-corporal beings (ghost nanoprobes?) and how said beings would use technology (the autonomous regeneration sequencers the Borg got from them).
It doesn't matter how many species the Borg have assimilated. Technology in the ST universe is universal, with all technologies in one category, no matter how "alien", follow the same working principles. Propulsion for example: You have the warp drive, the Borg use a modified warp drive (+deflector shields and navigational deflectors) to archive transwarp speed. The Voth did also use warp technology, albeit a more refined one. The quantum slipstream drive was also based on a narrowly-focused directed warp field. The basis for all of that is the warp drive.
Same with weapons: Almost all weapons we see on screen are directed energy weapons (phasers, disruptors) while the explosives are matter/antimatter warheads.
The point is: At the two occassions when the Borg encountered technology that was completely out of that design patterns (Data, Species 8472) their attempt to assimilate it utterly failed. In the latter part, even with the modified nanoprobes, they could just kill but not assimilate Species 8472. So why should we assume that they can simply assimilate SW tech, which would just be as alien to them? "Because they assimilated anything else before". This is not only ignoring the two exceptions but also commiting the usual no limit fallacy. "They can assimilate anything" (despite the fact that the on-screen evidence shows the can't.)...
In addition to what I've said on the issue above: Prove to me what techniques they assimilated and what techniques they invented themselves. Obviously they did invent technology on their own, unless you want to tell me that they used the assimilation technique to assimilate said technique.
They obviously invented interplanetary means of travel on their own, which means the warp drive. Again, no other propulsion techniques is really "unfamiliar" from there on. There are just some more advanced technologies based upon the principles of the Warp drive. Which also serves as basis for time-travel and creating quantum singularities. Your point?
Yes. I've listed them. That doesn't change the fact that non of that yields does fit another description.
Again: See above. It's neither logical nor safe to use the assumption above to determine the Borgs ability in assimilating completely alien technlogy. SW tech compared to that of Species 8472? The usual SW tech is totally different from ST tech, starting with fundamental principles, ending with procedures to assemble the raw materials for it. In addition the SW universe features completely bio-engineered technology (Yuuzhan Vong) and force based technology (Aing-Tii, Rakatan, Sith Empire).
The Bedlam spirits do have complete control of space, time and matter which constitutes to being omnipotent. They are by far more powerful than the Douwd (Uxbridge was inable to protect his wife, time-travel to save her or undo his own action of wiping a species from existance) and the Q also have their limitations.
Oh. Is that an allusion to the calculations you don't want to link me to, fearing that I'd prove them wrong, which is likely, given the amount of incompetence in the realm of math and physics you have demonstrated?
Huh? What kind of hyperdrive have you seen? The Millenium Falcon uses a class 0.5 hyperdrive, which is twice as fast as class 1, four times as fast as class 2 (common tech in present day SW universe) while class 3 hyperdrives have been used in the past 4000 years. So the slowest modern ship would need 28 hours for 40,000 lightyears, with totally outdated ships needing 56 hours.
The example you sited needs a previously established transwarp hub, which is quite obvious considering the fact that the Borg travel far slower usually and needed one year from Borg space to earth ("TNG: The Best of both worlds"). And comparing that to Federation tech: A SW space ship could perform the seven year journey of the Voyager in seven days...
Oh yes. We know. But not from the episode. The Voyager started it's way back home from a point 70,000 lightyears away from Earth, which was said to be a 75 year journey - 933 lightyears per year. They did cut off 10,000 lightyears when Kes did speed up the Voyager ("VOY: The Gift"), in "Timeless" they do another 10,000 year jump using the quantum slipstream drive. 20,000 years were crossed using a Borg transwarp coil ("Dark Frontier") and another 2,500 via a wormhole in "The Night" and another 3,000 utilizing graviton catapult ("The Voyager Conspiracy"). Given the original estimations of time needed to return home, they would have crossed additional 6,500 lightyears, using the ships own propulsion system.
That would leave 18,000 lightyears to cross in "Endgame". Given that the future Janeway shortened the journey by 16 years, that would be 15,000 lightyears.
And for the time factor: It didn't take hours? The Federation is alarmed of the transwarp portal opening and has enough time to sent ships from Earth to the portal which is one lightyear away. Using Voyagers listed cruising speed (Warp 9.975), such a trip would take 10 hours of time for Federation ships. So it's entirely possible that the journey of the Voyager through the transwarp tunnel did take several hours which they - obviously - couldn't show on screen.
Which is entirely irrelevant anyway. Such travel speeds would require a previously existing transwarp network (the first Borg to travel to Earth needed almost a year for that journey - as seen in "TNG: The Best of Both Worlds"). So this kind of speed can't be archived in context of this VS fight...
Who could control space and time via his will. Clearly not your average human being.
Yeah. From their homeplanet to a location within this limited radius. Why do you mention that? The Aing-Tii monks can teleport themselves and starships anywhere they want using the force ("Fate of the Jedi: Omen").
If by "beaten" you mean "ignored", then yes. Usual no limit fallacy. "Oh my god. They can't be touched by phasers. That certainly means they can't be touched by black holes or the power of God either!". Convincing argument.
Besides presenting another red herring, your thoughts don't mean too much when the contradict the facts. The Krenim ship's speed was limited to Warp 6. That means, if I'm not totally mistaken, 392.5c. That's one century for one single travel from the Galactic Core to the Outer Rim. The Journey into the Vong Galaxy would take about 6000 years. You were saying?
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That his tech wasn't beyond their ability is based on what? That they were able to put some skin on his cyborg ass. Good god. That I could pull somebodies teeth doesn't turn me into a dentist, does it? They've tried to assimilate him but utterly failed, meaning he is beyond them. The same is true for Species 8472, even after having modified nanoprobes ready. They can destroy them but not assimilate them.
Lmao.
Really, Robtard. Provided you've admitted your lack of knowledge considering the SW universe, why do you even try to argue? The force doesn't work everywhere in the SW universe? Where is that idea coming from? I've disproven all allusions into that direction already. The Force is present everywhere in the SW universe, in all life forms and even affects extra-galactical entities (Yuuzhan Vong) and life forms from other universes (Waru, "The Crystal Star").
So what? Do you want to argue me with ipsedixitism? That doesn't fly. Neither does defending your no limit fallacy. "The Borg just failed once" is incorrect. They failed twice. On screen. And failing once already contradicts the "they can assimilate anything" line of thought. Accept it, move on.
Says the guy that did admit to have next to zero knowledge about the Star Wars Expanded Universe and is talking out of ignorance through-out the entire debate for this single reason? Hilarious.
Really? You got that information from where in the ST canon? Sources please. This is a debate and not a game of "Robtard says".
That aside: ST weapons either shoot plasma or use plasma to trigger the directed energy effect. In SW weapons, the plasma is compressed first, charged with more energy after that and then fired at high velocities. That damage caused is a mixture of a pure energy discharge (explosion) and kinetic energy. Two things that the Borg have not adapted to and against which their usual meaning to adapt "modify shields to frequence X" would utterly fail.
And where have the Borg ever encountered plasma weapons or adapted to them? Any source?
Apparently you still haven't figured out that the Force doesn't have to be used against a target directly in order to cause damage. We've seen Yoda force pushing starships around. We've seen Dooku throwing a pretty huge metal construction at Obi-Wan and Anakin ("Attack of the Clones". We've seen Yoda and Sidious throwing Senate pods around in their duel ("Revenge of the Sith"). Tahiri Veila has compressed the air to kill Yuuzhan Vong, who had a high resistance against force powers directed at them ("New Jedi Order" series).
Do you want to tell me that the Borg would adapt to blunt force of having all kind of heavy items thrown at them? Or do you want to tell me that they could adapt to the effects generated by a force storm? This when they utterly failed to protect themselves against all kinds of physical attacks (fists, cutting devices, bullets) before? That doesn't seem to be reasonable.
Right. Since you've failed to provide any proof for the "limits of the force", this isn't a statement that has to be considered at all.
The "canon argument" has already been solved by officials from the responsible companies. Star Wars canon: Movies, TV shows, entirety of the EU with exception of things declared not canon. ST canon = movies, TV shows. End of story.
Numbers game is senseless against SW.
"The Empire's standard Sector Group strength was only twenty-four Star Destroyers. They were able to exercise control over an entire system with a single Imperial-class ship. They were able to overwhelm anything up to a Class Four planetary defense with one-third of a Sector Group." (Etahn A'baht, "Before the Storm")
The Star Wars Galaxy (more precisely: former Republic space) was devided into 1024 sectors ("The Essential Atlas"). As stated above 24 Star Destroyers were assigned to one sector, with the rest of the sector group consisting of 2,400 additional capital battle-ships (frigates, carriers, destroyers, interdictor ships and so on) and another 1600 support ships ("The Imperial Sourcebook"). That means we have 25,000 Star Destroyers and 2.4 million additional capital warships, 1.6 million support ships with 10s or 100s of millions of starfighters. And this is still just the Galactic Empire at times of "Return of the Jedi".
Before that you have 25,000 years of Republic history. You have the Infinite Empire, the Ancient Sith Empire, Revan's Sith Empire, the "The Old Republic" Sith Empire, the Mandalorian Crusaders, the Yuuzhan Vong and the CIS droid armies. Each of that factions was either controlling a nice part of the Galaxy or fighting for control over such a large territory. And this is just listing some of the largest fighting forces. There are enough private organizations like the Bounty Hunters Guild, the Exchange, the Black Sun, the Hutts, the Zann Consortium or the GenoHaradan that have considerable military forces. Not even mentioning planet-based police and military forces.
Sorry. That wouldn't even be a contest, provided that the SW universe forces are designed for nothing else but waging war, while most of ST happens to be rather pacifistic. As far as I see, only the speculative numerial strength of the Borg or a total overuse of time-travel devices (ignoring their weaknesses) could pose a threat to the SW side. Only using convential warfare, this would be a landslide victory for the SW universe.
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Not sure if you didn't watch the film or forgot what happened, but your statement is ignoring key elements:
A) The skin graft wasn't just cosmetic, they interfaced(adapted it to) it with his systems/technology and Data could feel pleasure, pain, cold etc., as it became a living part of him.
B) The Queen was turning him into a Borg to be her male counterpart.
Considering that. Data's technology obviously wasn't beyond the Borg and your teeth/dentist comparison is just silly. Yes, we've established that Species 8472 couldn't be assimilated; the modified nanites do show the Borg's adaptivity when faced with a threat, assess and counter.
Expect that your "the Force has no limits" stance is still wrong, dude. It can't do anything and everything. EG The Vong are disconnected from it and it can't be used to create Obi Won a sandwich. If it had "no limits", nothing would be beyond its reach/capabilities. I'd also be like an omnipotence and thereby disqualified from this thread, if it was so.
No, the Borg failed once in their assimilation (see above) process, repeating this won't change what happened in ST:FC. While they did fail once, trying to ram-rod the notion that since they failed with Species 8472, they'd then just fail with a Stardestroyer/SW-Tech is rubbish. Repeat: Species 8472 was from a different dimension, their tech was biological and their biology was incredibly advanced/complex. Comparing the two in nonsense.
Said I've not read the EU books, not that I didn't know anything, I SW fan, so I do read up on online info.
Correct it's not. You are trying to turn it into a "Borbarad insist" game though.
Plasma-based weapon exist in ST; the Borg have and have faced them.
As I agreed, the Force would be a great advantage. But your "throw stuff at them" approach relies on the Borg (who have millions of ships and billion of Drones) getting into constant ground battles with the Jedi. Just not logical.
Common sense dictates that the Force has limits and can't do everything and anything as you claim (see above) . I shouldn't have to disprove your no-limit-fallacy of The Force on those grounds. Probably best if you just abandon the "no limit" stance, it's fanboy-esque; you seem above that, imo.
Really would depend on which ships were in a liked sized fleet, now wouldn't it. Quite a few of the major ST players are far from pacifist. The Borg, The Dominion, The Klingons, The Romulans, The Cardasians, The Breen.
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Apparently, I do have to site the ST:FC script:
DATA (to Borg): "Your efforts to assimilate me will be unsuccessful."
The Borg ignores him, activates a console... and the cabling connected to Data's head LIGHTS UP with power. They're trying to connect him to the Collective.
Data thinks for a moment, tilts his head slightly...and then suddenly there's a SHOWER of SPARKS from the cabling he's been connected to. The lights on the cable go out. Data has thwarted their attempts.
DATA (to Borg): "It would appear that resistance is not always futile."
As you can see, they are completely unable to assimilate Data's brain. Fact. They even try it again after this first attempting, drilling into his head. Yet they just fail again. The result is this:
BORG QUEEN (to Data): "It's unfortunate we will have to destroy you to obtain the information we need."
So they do have to destroy him in order to maybe figure out how he works? And Data, even though designed by a genius, is still technology that originated from their universe, utilizing processing of materials they have most likely encountered before. If that's how they could "use" Data, how are they supposed to deal with far more alien SW technology? Destroy it in order to figure out some working principles which would require even more of that action to happen? Before they have delved into SW tech enough to utilize it or counter it, they would probably be exterminated by the Empire.
How are nanites modified by the Voyager crew a prove of the Borg's adaptivity? The Borg were about to get wiped from the face of the universe, because they didn't find any counter fast enough. This was done by a compartible low number of ships (there weren't more than 150 bioships in action). The Empire would attack them with millions of vessels.
Apparently, you totally fail to destinquish "the Force" as the omnipotent energy field that it is, from the force users which are obviously not omnipotent, because their abilities to use the Force are limited. Then you keep arguing from ignorance. The entire Vong species did consist of force users, before their sentient homeworld used the force in order to cut their connection to it off. They were still affected by force abilities and even had two force users among their ranks. You were saying? And given that the Force has been used to summon armies out of nowhere (by Sith Lord Naga Sadow in "The Fall of the Sith Empire") one could probably utilize it to create a sandwich.
And thanks for repeating already defeated points like a broken record. "The Force" itself isn't used in this debate, because it doesn't have limits when you view it as an entity equiped with a will. People that just use a part of that energy are far from being omnipotent. Hence they aren't excluded.
Did the Borg fail to find a defense against their weapons? Yes. Over the time span of weeks or months. Did the Borg utterly fail to cope with Species 8472 biology and find a way to fight them? Yes, completely.
SW tech is far ahead of anything seen in the ST universe. Fact. ST tech works on entirely different principles than anything in the ST universe. Fact. SW tech features technology that is based of the Force or completely bio-engineered. Are we simply ignoring that, just to allow the Borg to assimilate it? This when they have failed on screen with technology that is far more common to them (Data).
And then you chose to ignore anything and stick to common missinterpretations found online like "the Vong do exist outside the force"?
Thanks for ignoring what I typed up twice now to just insert the same things again, that totally ignore the fundamental working principles of both ST and SW weapons. I would be blessed if you'd be so kind to get the following fact into your head: Instead of a coherent beam of laser-heated plasma (ST plasma weapons) or firing light through a plama medium to launch some particles from it (phasers, disruptors), blasters fire a highly compressed, focused high-energy particle beam usually dissipating in a small, but violent explosion of extreme heat and force.
My point: Borg haven't adapted to extreme heat and especially not blunt force flying in their general direction, which can be observed throughout the entire show. They would adapt to blasters how exactly? As far as we've seen, they usually "adapt" by modifying their (personal) shields in order to block a certain kind of energy frequence. That's rather useless against blunt kinetic force and heat.
Which is already leaving the "no limit fallacy" out of the question: Their shields do have limits that are likely exceeded by the mere power-output of conventional SW weaponary. So even if they could adapt to it, they still wouldn't survive the onslaught.
Nope. It doesn't. Because "spaceships" do also fall into the category of "stuff" that Jedi could toss around, at least the more powerful among them. That aside from the fact that the "Clone Wars" series shows about half a dozen of occassion which show force users boarding space ships (even in outer space) and run rampant through them. And I've mentioned the Aing-Tii monks multiple times now, who can teleport themselves and others where-ever they like. So the Jedi and Sith do have the option to board enemy vessels rather easily.
The point is that every common used warship in the SW universe carries enough firepower to devastate an entire planet. They are called "Star Destroyers" for a reason. Following the usual technical commentaries (e.g. "Incredible Cross-Section books") and even some normal novels, some civil yacht class space ships in the SW universe have a power output compareable to the Enterprise-D. Scaling that up, the Star Destroyers or ships being able to match them would put out hundreds or thousands of times more energy than that. And this would mean a single Star Destroyer could possible take out the entire Federation fleet (akin to what happened at Wolf 359).
And the Enterprise-D has been seen to combat the metioned species successfully (Borg excepted) and has been noted as "the most powerful ship of the the Federation" on several occassions. So I don't think there is much that the ST side has to offer for that, with the exception of Borg Cubes. But even those would probably be overpowered by SW weaponary.
Well. One shot from Han Solo's blaster was causing this:
(please log in to view the image)
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And I finally discovered some of jaden's calculations
In case you perceived a clapping sound right there, jaden101: It's not the applaus for this brilliant point, but everybody reading it and not suffering from a severe lack of common sense hammering their hand against their foreheads in a facepalm unison.
What does "watt" mean to jaden? For anybody not being totally incapable of grasping basic physics, "watt" is defined as "joulesper second". Apparently, I do have to put the emphasis there, because jaden seems to think, that one can simply assign any time frame wanted to that unit which is - gosh - not the case. When somebody says "watt" then he always is talking about energy used or created in the timeframe of one second. If he's refering to a longer time-span, he will make use of terms like "watthours" or "kilowatthours" or possible even "wattyears" (which is sometimes used to express the energy-consumption of certain nation in one year). But if it's just "watt" then it's always per second.
Even without any actual knowledge in the physics department: How completely senseless would be a figure of energy output (or consumption) given for the "lifespan" of a generator or electrical consumer? Is "lifetime" a constant where jaden lives? Because otherwise nobody would be able to figure out how much power would be used or generated with the object in question as "lifetime" is not defined. And, surprise, there isn't a single product that has it's energy consumption or output defined like that.
That aside: Given jadens fondness for calculations he should have noticed the following fact: If the energy production was given for the entire life-time of the ship (at least 3 years, following the fact that certain ships were used through the Clone Wars and beyond), the energy production per second would boil down to 2,113,986 Watt or 2 megawatt. Can somebody please tell the audience, how they do fly an 800 meter long starship through space with less power than it would need to fly two P-51 Mustang fighters, while operating guns that - even following the lowest estimations by Trek fans I've seen so far - have a higher energy output than the entire ship? So, may I ask: Is jaden just plain dense or is he that desperate to win this debate?
Following the above mentioned figures and not playing stupid like jaden did, we can establish it as fact that a single Star Destroyer produces more than 15,000 times the energy the Enterprise-D puts out. In ship to ship battles, Star Trek gets royally screwed, steamrolled and defeated. It's not even a contest.
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The Borg would obviously never have suggested it in the 1st place if it meant the probes were going to be destroyed. It was never stated in the episode that it would be a futile tactic because the probes would be destroyed. So your utterly desperate assumption that they would is extremely sad and equally pathetic.
Saying they're similar technologies based on the fact that they use the same terminology of "Warp drive" (which is effectively what you're doing here) is a bit stupid given that in the original series the alternative name for it was hyperdrive.
The Romulans quantum singularity warp drive is significantly different than the matter/antimatter reaction of federation warp tech.
If I remember correctly there's also been FTL drives based on tachyons and experiments done on soliton wave based propulsion.
Yet very little of it is sufficiently different from ST tech for you to automatically and logically argue that the Borg wouldn't be able to assimilate it. They don't even have to assimilate it directly. They can either download the data that will allow them to assimilate it or assimilate a person with knowledge of the technology. We've seen them do this on screen in the next generation. Given that they can transport straight through shields.
Your logic is entirely wrong here...You're the one stating they invent technologies then you're the one who has to provide proof for those technologies.
So you argue one minute that the Douwd is non aggresive and so wouldn't get involved and then say that because of that he was unable to protect his wife?
Make up your mind eh.
So what's the Q's limitations then? The main Q (as portrayed by John De Lancie) was able to instantly transport himself (and others) anywhere in the universe. He took Picard back to the beginning of life on Earth. Create objects out of thin air...Make Geordi see again...Give Data emotion...Other members of the continuum managed to transport Voyager back to the big bang...Have the ship hanging on a Christmas tree...All a bit more impressive than turning Leia's heart in to a diamond.
Which, again, is completely and utterly irrelevant given that once they'd reached and fired on their target then even if SW were powerful enough to destroy the rest of the ST universe (which they're obviously not) then all that damage would be reversed once the temporal distortion had travelled back over the ST galaxy.
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Are you really this dense, jaden? Do I need to paint you a nice picture to allow you to understand the point?
Because the probes would not be destroyed, the mine obviously doesn't have any noticeable destructive abilities. If it had, it would certainly destroy some nanobot caught in the middle of the explosion. Did you get it now?
Oh my god.
I didn't base it on the terms used but on the working principle, which is projecting a field around a space ship that seperates it from "real space" in which FTL travel is possible. Fact. That is the basis for any common propulsion technology in the ST universe.
SW hyperdrives create ripples in space-time through which the vessel is propelled into hyperspace (which is a higher dimension), in which the distances to be crossed a far shorter than in real space. Any common means of propulsion seen in the ST universe? Not as far as I know.
I'm getting tired of refuting the same beaten arguments again and again.
a) SW tech is far different and superior to ST tech. That you want to ignore this fact is, quite frankly, not my problem. Feel free to ignore the truth but don't bother to continue this debate from your ignorance.
b) The Borg will simply download data from military vessels? Right. It's not that military data is likely encrypted, and it's also not that they failed to access even Data's data, even when having the opportunity to apply physical brute force against him.
c) They will assimilate persons with the knowledge? Given what is present in my last posting, the Empire would reduce them into tiny bits before of them even has a chance to assimilate anything.
Are you dense?
They left their original home planet without building space ships how exactly? They reached other civilizations to assimilite without interplanetary travel how exactly? They started to assimilate things without having a technology to assimilate things how exactly?
And it was your argument that they "assimilated all those technologies", so it would be your burden to proof that they did, without inventing any of it on their own - which is a illogical premise anyway.
Gosh. Given your inability to follow even the most simple arguments, I'd suggest that you make up your mind and leave debating to the people equiped with the mental faculities needed to do the job, instead of making a fool out of yourself. This is pathetic.
What in "complete control over time, matter and space" was it, you didn't understand? The Bedlam Spirits could do all of this. They also resurrected already dead individuals (which no Q ever managed to pull of), transported some of them back in time and other through space. That the Q, with vastly more on screen time, have more feats which "look more impressive" doesn't counter my argument. But thanks for trying.
And last time I checked, the thread-started defined "no omnipotents and no nigh omnipotents" as rule for this thread, turning this into pointless waste of words anyway.
Apparently, you failed to get the argument again.
I was saying that the crew of the time ship was fed up with a task that took them 200 years. Now you assume that they will contribute millenia to the rather futile task of wiping the entire life of two Galaxies out. This ignoring the various problems that time travel causes, which have been explained in depth in the various time travel episodes in ST fiction. Just to for example:
You erase the Jedi Order from existance. This will lead to other force using groups to gain far more influence than they originally had, because they won't be fought by the Jedi or because the Jedi won't recruit them for their order. Then you would have to exterminate that groups, which will in turn have just the same effects.
In other words: This task would require an nigh infinite amount of time from people that didn't have any will to go after 200 years in the original series. Yet, even then, you wouldn't be done, because eterminating the Yuuzhang Vong would lead to the machine species that they fought a war against in prehistoric times becoming more powerful. Then you would just need to perform this task once again.
I get your argument...You clearly don't get the fact that you're wrong though.
You've not beaten anything. You haven't even addressed half of the arguments. You ask me to provide proof for mine while all the while making utterly baseless and idiotic comments such as Bedlam spirits being far more powerful than Q or the Douwd.
No....Clearly you are...I named specific technologies and you implied that some of them were made by the Borg rather than assimilated. It's those technologies you have to prove were created by the Borg...Capiche?
Certainly doesn't include you does it?
Looks more impressive?...Nah...Actually IS more impressive...By a massive degree.
So the Q didn't resurrect people on screen thus makes them incapable of doing so?...Bit idiotic logic that.
Do I need to repeat the Q's feats again?
We're not debating whether people would get fed up or not though are we?...We're debating which tech is superior and which would win a battle...SW has absolutely no answer to the Krenim time ship....Therefor it solos the SW forces on its own.
I'm well aware of what it would do...I'm saying that it would erase certain technologies which you claim make SW superior. What you're suggesting is then just making up new technologies dependent upon which species would come to the fore if other dominant species were wiped from existance...Which is effectively making stuff up and thus not canon and not included in this debate.
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Oh. You get my argument? Let's have a look.
Your initial claim: "The Mine will destroy anything in a four lightyear radius."
My reply: "Wrong. It will just destribute nanoprobes over that distance, as stated on screen. And they probably can assemble enough of that stuff in any realistic time frame to blow the SW universe up."
Your reaction: "Yes. They can assemble enough of that things" (ignoring your initial failure, not presenting anything but speculations)
My reaction: "Maybe. Doesn't matter, as you were exeggerating it's destructive abilities. Besides: If it doesn't destroy the nanoprobes, how will it damage anything else?"
You: "Obviously it wouldn't destroy the nanoprobes, otherwise the Borg would have never suggested to use the device that way" (ignoring your initial error and my second argument).
But you understood the argument so far? You certainly don't even remotely act as if you did. So answer this simple questions or conceed the argument: How is a device that doesn't damage nanoprobes going to deal any damage to shielded capital starships?
Why do you still ignore your initial error and claim it would affect four lightyears?
Before even daring to answer "I've already explained that", quote the passage where you explained it. Anything else will be accepted as concession.
Red herring. Any discussion including omnipotent or nigh omnipotent beings is rendered void by the thread-starter. End of story.
No, Sir.
"They've assimilated transwarp, time travel, transdimensional travel, technology create quantum singularities...the list goes on and on and on."
This is your claim, so it's your task to present proof for said claim. If you can't do that, it's not my problem.
My claim was, that they had to come with the basics of the above mentioned technologies on their own in order to go anywhere from their homeplanet in order to assimilate new technologies. This is logical. So what?
Lmao.
"So the Bedlam spirits didn't turn the universe into a christmas special thus makes them incapable of doing so, despite it has been stated that they have complete control over space, time and matter? Bit idiotic logic that."
Not idiotic enough to not be used by your first, and then you attempt to call me out on it. Gosh. No. The inability of the Q to ressurect death individuals is demonstrated by the Q civil war. The reason for it was that one of them died and they weren't able to change that, and some of them were killed during the war, which wouldn't make any sense, if somebody could just snap their fingers to ressurect them again. You were saying?
This argument is still a total waste of time considering the premise of this thread: no omnipotent, near omnipotent beings...
Welcome to the realm of the (already beaten to death) "no limit fallacy". Shall I sum it up again: "Because conventional ST weapons can't damage the Krenim time ship, it can't be touched by any means", spoke Jaden. His proof? Oh, sorry. He hasn't understood the concept of "presenting proof", yet. He still assumes that, even if Q or another godlike being pops up to destroy the ship (just as example) it would resist even omnipotent beings, because it can't be hit with a phaser!
a)
Present proof that the Krenim time ship is entirely unaffected by phenomena that do alter space-time (force storm). Existing in a different dimension of space-time doesn't constitute being completely out of it.
b)
Present proof that the Krenim time ship would be capable of fulfill his mission without any support (fuel?) and can go on for several thousand years, because the rest of ST would be gone.
Oh. Wait. Actually, you don't have to do that. If the ship can't be damaged and can destroy the entirety of SW on it's own, it falls under the "no (nigh) omnipotent" qualifier of this thread and thus is ruled out by the thread starter. You've beaten yourself once again.
Really?
Following your own rules, you have to argue without the Krenim time-ship, because it erased itself from existance, meaning that it never appeared in the timeline and thusly, everything that happened in the episode featuring the ship is technically erased, thus not canon.
That aside: Stop attempting to strawman me. I said that, erasing one dominant species, they would alter the initial timeline to such an extend, that they would have to start their work again. In case that's too complex for you, their mission would look like that:
-> figure out the homeworld of the humans
-> go there to destroy homeworld of the humans
-> look at the new timeline which species is dominating the Galaxy now that the humans are gone
-> figure out the homeworld of that species
-> go there to destroy homeworld of that species
-> ....
From there on, it's going to repeat itself again and again and again. Ad nauseam. And when they are done with that in one Galaxy, they have to traverse into that of the Yuuzhan Vong and use a nigh infinite amount of time again to repeat the task there.
This is speculation outside the established canon, yes. But operating outside of the established canon is the entire basis for your argument. You assume that the ship didn't destroy itself (already out of canon), you ignore the personalities of the crew (more out of canon). You ignore the further limitations of the ship, which have to be there (out of canon, logical fallacious). And then you try to call me out, because I pointed out that their actions will have consequences that will force them to repeat their actions, which is actually part of the episode in which the ship appears (where they constantly have to alter their mission objectives, without archiving anything)? Ingenious.
Especially since you're operating under the false premise, that the SW universe doesn't have access to time-travel. The Darkstaff ("Echoes of the Jedi") can be used to summon a force storm to go to any desired time period. The Orb of Passage ("The Secret of Tet-Ami") was implied to control the flow of time itself and the Eternity Crystal ("Dark Knight's Devilry") in possession of the Jerni can be used to rewind time to a certain negative incident and correct the changes. This give the SW universe the means to destroy the Krenim before they construct the ship or simply undo the changes they made using it, rendering their task futile.
I leave it to you to clear up the resulting temporal mess. Have fun.
Feel free to answer THIS instead of tossing red herrings at me like a fish-selling pitchman.
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Sep 21st, 2010 12:54 AM
