No, you just debate poorly, mainly because you know little to nothing of ST.
Do tell which SW races has an "entire history shown"?
You actually haven't, you just throw things out like "galaxy gun!" and "sun crusher!", like any one trick pony weapon is going to defeat ST or SW.
Even without this "entire history" shit, The Borg, Spieces 8472 and the Jem Hadar could stomp SW. As it's not about "millions of years of time", it's about overall power and superior technology.
...still ignoring my argument (and your superior tech claim is unsupported)...
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
Democracy is the very definition of awesome.
If you're referring to your 'the Enterprise D fires at this much power, while the Acclamator attack-ship has shields at this much power', it's been answered and countered over and over, you simply insist on ignoring it. You also have yet to counter 99% of Jaden's points, so you asking others to counter yours is dishonest, though it's been done, as stated.
Superior tech in ST has been shown repeatedly, Jaden has listed and explained them to your over and over and over, again, you refuse to read/listen.
Another thing ST has over SW, time-travel, which has been shown many a time. So if we're bringing everything in, then ST gets everything from the future (see Temporal Wars in ST Enterprise), which is exponentially more power than anything shown thus far.
By citing these examples I’ve show how general blasters are extremely capable I’ve just effectively demonstrated several instances of blaster firepower being far above that of the firepower of the one that hit Leia. Which is really the whole point. Establishing what blasters are generally capable of instead of nitpicking on a single instance where it doesn’t demonstrate that firepower.
And as for the scene with Leia being shot in the arm, it wasn’t a direct hit to the shoulders. If you watch the scene you’ll notice that when the bolt struck, sparks were flying everywhere and Leia didn’t react until a few frames later. You should also take notice that the Storm Troopers in question were attempting to capture Han and Leia as opposed to outright killing them.
Which is to say nothing about the time frame that the weapon was firing, which would after all, make a huge difference in firepower.
Not at all. It was in reference to the two borg ships being blown up while attempting to escape from the debris of the planet that 8472 had blown up. In the instance before that you also see the Borg ship that had Voyager in tow to have taken damage from the flying debris as well.
Imperial Heavy Repeaters, for the Galactic Empire. There are also good various number of other physical projectile weapons such as the adjudicator and the wookie slug thrower.
They were in a war with Species 8472 for months and had not even adapted a means of adapting a way to counter their melee attacks. Most of the time, physical attacks work very well against the Borg in most encounters. Especially when considering that Worf managed to successfully knife one in First Contact.
A kill setting does not necessarily guarantee actually killing the person to begin with. Modern day guns are built with the capacity to kill people, yet there is still are many occasions where such things are survivable.
I’ve already brought up Turbolasers, industrial capacity, blaster capabilities etc in a few previous post already. Most of those examples from SW, generally speaking are already a sufficient counter what Star Trek would normally deploy.
You haven’t. You have not demonstrated any instance where the Borg actually adapts to a situation where the victims they are attempting to assimilate has vastly superior firepower to their own.
Seeing how the issue has never even been brought up, that would be a moot point.
Which is not particularly helpful in Star Treks case when Star Wars has magnitudes of firepower even greater than the Tsar Bomba.
An advantage that was never seen in “Best of Both Worlds” and would never pop up after. How about some more recent instances?
It was a counter to your belief that the website in question didn’t take into account anything outside of the Federation.
It’s the search results of a database for the Borg in the Star Trek DB.
Adaption is not a no-limits fallacy and it certainly does have its limits as to what extent it can adapt. Hell First Contact demonstrates this as we see a Borg Cube getting destroyed under the stress of a sustained barrage from the Federation ships.
Its an analysis. He’s basically establishing the scope and range of the tractor beam. Again, this was just a database search to prove that the stardestroyer.net site also does cover Star Trek canon.
Hardly. It establishes the fact that Han Solo didn’t know what the hell he was talking about by the time that he had actually seen Alderaan in ruins. Especially considering that the Empire is fully well capable of destroying planets.
And why would fleet numbers be of any concern to a smuggler?
This doesn’t disprove that he’s still demonstrably wrong about the capabilities of the Empire. And even if there are that many bioships out there, they will still turn tail and retreat in the face of superior firepower.
When Thrawn recovered them.
Yes and that makes them infallible….. riiiggghhtt….. Well we know a few things for certain. Individual bioships with a glancing hit were only barely able to penetrate the shields of the voyager and that it is only capable of blowing chunks out of borg cubes, meaning that formations would be the only means of being able to sustain such firepower capacity. Something that could be solved in very short order with Turbolaser blast.
Vindicators, Acclamators, Gladiators, Interdictors classes are just a few ship classes within the Imperial fleet, and this isn’t even bringing up the different kind of frigate classes either.
You missed the part where Darth Vader gave the crew express orders to capture the ship.
And we’ve also seen instances of turbolasers vaporizing large asteroids and being able to slag worlds to the point where its uninhabited. If anything a turbolaser is not a one size fit all as it comes in many different categories. The ones that I refer to however are the heavy ones, that are usually mounted on starships.
Perhaps for the 1st death star I’ll concede that. But definitely not the case for the second death star. A monster they built in secret with the materials spend being worth damn near millions of ISDs. A testament to their monstrous industry really.
And my point is that the number of actual tanks that are used by the Dominion will have a whole lot to do with how many clones they would be able to produce. With Star Wars on the other hand, they have a sufficient number of cloning tanks (entire planet dedicated to it after all) to produce an actual sizable army.
Without even giving a time frame as to how long it took, and what kind of rocks it were.
Which has actually been mass produced for Starfleet? The TR-116 rifle with the micro-transporter modification was asserted by O’Brien to not have been part of the basic design of the rifle.
Said biological cloak was also detected with the right “flashlight” that was using a specific spectrum wavelength. Something that Clone Trooper Helmets can do easily enough.
And why wouldn’t any of this constitute specifics? With that logic then I really ought to dismiss what you say since its non-specific like you claim my arguments to be. You also omitted the part where I said “unless asked” which set up my intent to back up claims if specifically asked.
Burden of proof. If you are going to assert that thread, then you will bring in the relevant quotes that you feel is of interest directly in here.
Said transwarp is not demonstrably faster than Hyperdrives. Especially that belonging to the Borg where they still demonstrate taking weeks to months to cross the galaxy. Unlike in Star Wars where normal travel times takes days to cross the galaxy with normal technology across most civililzations.
They don’t need to. Turbolasers already provide firepower superior to the weapon that Voyager was using.
And of course said, phased weapon is likely dependent on being able to penetrate the frequency based shields that are usually built into trek ships. Unlike Trek ships, Star Wars doesn’t have any frequency built into any of their shields.
See above.
So are you honestly telling me that I could destroy the Borg with kiloton firepower if “magnitude” had nothing to do with it? That would just mean that they would be far easier to destroy.
We see an instance in Scorpion where the shields of the Voyager had (barely) survived a hit from a Bioship. Several other instances of it blowing out chunks of a Borg Cube, in all likelihood leaving it within a lower end magnitude of firepower that Trek is in(Scorpion again for references sake)
Ablative armor degrades with every hit. Which enforces my point about ablative armor not being a no-limits fallacy. With something like a turbolaser, it’s going to degrade really, really fast.
So it references canon and then completely misinterprets it (the examples about the Borg I've already given in this thread, for example)
He didn't know about the Death Star....What with it being...a SECRET weapon and all. His life/freedom and livelyhood depend on him knowing the empire's compliment.
Because much of what he does is against empire laws?
So what's the superior firepower? Given that, by canon, I've already proven it takes a stardestroyer days to action a Base Delta Zero which only melts the surface of a planet yet the bioships take seconds to completely obliterate a planet?
So he outfitted them several times in a short space of time before he was assassinated?...Nah...He didn't.
It wasn't even aiming at Voyager and never hit it with a glancing blow...It completely missed it (because it wasn't aiming for Voyager) and yet still sent it spinning completely out of control.
Not to mention a couple of minor shots completely obliterated 2 Borg cubes at the start of the episode "Scorpion"
It's canon that the Borg lost, IN A SINGLE BATTLE, 312 cubes and 8 planets. Species 8472 were projected to completely eliminate the Borg in a matter of weeks (that's hundreds of thousands of planets, billions of ships and trillions of drones)
I've already shown the top level canon weakness of a turbo laser blast...It can't even take out the weak millenium falcon in a single hit...A shot caused a minor explosion on an unshielded hanger deck...So how do you think it would destroy a Borg cube...Seriously...How can you actually propose that it could and still keep a straight face
And we've already seen small asteroids sheer off massive chunks of shielded SD's....Great defences...And we've also seen small bioships destroy entire planets. Not just an asteroid.
I'll agree with that. Although it was somewhat off being finished, they'd clearly threw a massive amount of resources at it.
Wtf? Dude, I did respond to it. Obviously you are incapable of reading it, so I'll rephrase it for you:
Based on the official canon stats, the Aclamator is MILLIONS of times more powerful than the Enterprise.
Jaden's main rebuttal is that the Enterprise is just a science/exploration vessel and thus it isn't fair to compare them.
But would an outdated assault/transport ship FROM STAR TREK be millions of times more powerful than the Enterprise?
The answer: no, of course not! The Enterprise has been shown to successfully defend itself from enemy combat ships, showing that ST ships are not millions of times > than the Enterprise.
So:
Outdated assault/transport ship from SW = millions of Enterprises
Outdated assault/transport ship from ST =/= anywhere near millions of Enterprises
Get it?
What do you mean? Have you actually read any of my posts? I've responded to all of them multiple times.
And Jaden has yet to explain how ST gets around their lack of armored vehicles, artillery or any form of ground combined arms tactics.
Temporal Wars are possible futures/alternate timelines, are they not?
@Jaden101
Phasers have shown to be continously stopped by envirnmental cover such as crates. They also have never been (as far as I know) fired at the ranges that SW hand weapons have.
And ST completely lacks armored vehicles, artillery, motars, machine guns and basically combined arms forces. A single AT-AT would waste a legion of ST troops quite easily.
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
Democracy is the very definition of awesome.
Last edited by Hewhoknowsall on Nov 13th, 2009 at 08:36 PM
Acclamator is an assault ship, sad that you can't even get SW facts correct, when you're a complete SW fanatic. So only thing you've proven is that an outdated SW assault ship has a larger power output than an outdated ST science-vessel, you know, the kind that carry along families and children. Luckily for the Enterprise-D, this is a war where it's NOT the only ship and the Federation is doing it solo.
No, you've side-stepped his points or you dismiss then. Mainly about the phased weapons, cloaking and whatnot, you know, the ones that SW has ZERO defense against.
Yes and no. ST ships from the future have come back in time, ergo, they'd exist and they'd be included in this fight. The Enterprise-J as an example.
Please take this as friendly advice, but educate yourself on what you're debating first, then debate. At least that Doan dude knows about SW and ST.
And are outdated ST assault ships millions of times more powerful than the Enterprise like how outdated SW assault ships are?
I have asked for additional info on phased weapons. He sent me a bunch of links about "phased" weapons, but out of them all only one of them was said to actually phase through space.
Star Wars has cloaking devices too, so that point is moot.
Then in that case, only those that actually came back in time to the regular timeline "exist" for this thread.
Friendly advice? I'm a pretty reasonable person, and listen to rational advice, but your posts haven't been anywhere near calm or rational.
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
Democracy is the very definition of awesome.
Also, I was calmly arguing until Jaden suddenly got hostile. Read over our posts again in chronological order and our tone. You'll see that my tone is reactive to you guys. Once Jaden suddenly became nice and all, and I was nice too. In the few other debates that I've had with you, I was nice whenever you were nice. I more or less NEVER bash someone first.
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
Democracy is the very definition of awesome.
Edit: Sorry, I was wrong, the shields of an Aclamator are inded BILLIONS of times more powerful than that of the Enterprise.
It's true that the Enterprise isn't a war ship, and it would be acceptable if it were only a few times, even a few hundreds times less powerful/durable. However, BILLIONS of times less durable clearly shows the big tech gap: even if it is a science vessel, if tech is equal then it shouldn't be billions of times less durable; a car isn't billions of times less durable than an Abrams tank. Is the Enterprise billions of times less durable than an outdated assault ship from Star TREK? I think not, otherwise it would've gotten one shotted by pretty much every enemy it ever faced. However, it is indeed billions of times less durable than a Star WARS outdated assault ship.
This means that the Aclamator could one shot the Enterprise, and it could probably one shot practically any other average ship, unless of course if they're heat dissipation > Aclamator's several hundred million gigabite power turbolasers. And since the Enterprise's shield heat dissipation is only slightly above 3000, you'd have to make the claim that an average ST ship is MILLIONS of times more durable than the Enterprise in order for them to take even a single hit from an OUTDATED Star Wars assault ship. If so, then how does the Enterprise even scratch any enemy ship it comes in contact with?
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
Democracy is the very definition of awesome.
Last edited by Hewhoknowsall on Nov 13th, 2009 at 11:38 PM
I can hardly see how considering that most of the canon that does get referenced in there shows instance that are very much in line with how Darth Wong would interpret it. Can't see how that really contest what I said about him not knowing about the Empires capabilities. Immediate weapons capabilties? Sure. Fleet presence and patrols? Sure? Where they are sniffing around? Why not. Fleet Numbers? Why should he? Its of no immediate concern to him. Hell its a direct contradiction against canon sources that put the numbers of the fleet far above that. See above. And i've proven that it takes much less time then that as per the Imperial Sourcebook. less than one hour for a fleet and several hours for a single ship with standard weaponry. Only if within the proper formation. Planet killing capabilities are not universal throughout each bioship. Besides, said 8472 planet killing weapons was not a direct energy transfer weapon, considering the delay between when the ship fired and when the planet blew up and also considering the fluctuations in visible energy. Hyperdrive upgrades and a hanger conversion to support TIE/e fighters don't count? Hardly. We see the bioship fire two shots. The first shot completely missed it with the Voyager still maintaining its velocity well enough. The second shot on the other hand scores a direct hit on the ship with the shields visibly having taken the hit and have sent Voyager flying wildly out of control.
Well considering how flimsy a Borg cube would be in the face of Star Wars weaponry this is nothing special.
And if that was indeed a single battles worth(which I believe mind you) of casualties then this is certainly indicative the limitations of the borg to be far under the trillions. After all, a few dozen attacks, with one of them having losses of 8 planets and 312 cubes, a projection of being wiped out in weeks, doesn't look to favorably on the Borg.
And what makes you think it wasn't any of the lighter turbolasers? Again, one size does not fit all in the Star Wars universe. Especially considering that Turbolasers are also used as defensive turrets on ground based battles. Again, we already know that they were wanted alive(Reference: the Bounty hunter scene on the SSD where Vader specifies that there will be no disintegrations and that they are wanted alive)
Because we see instances of it completely vaping asteroids, visual evidence(from ages back) of it slagging worlds and technical evidence that also supports it.
One of my previous remarks accidentally got embedded in a quote tag. I'll get it back out:
And that was while it was being constantly bombarded by debris to the point where its shields would end up really stressed. As per “The Empire Strikes Back” novelization this was described as a “steady rain” of asteroids, each one described as a multi-megaton compression bomb whenever it actually hit the ship. Obviously the ships shields were put under a severe strain of constant bombardment before finally having caved.
Its massive relative to whats normally built in Star Wars, but it wasn't particularly a massive drain to the abundant materials that are usually available.
Just to say, it would be appreciated if you were to respond to both my posts AND doan m's posts. Thanks
Then how come in firefights in ST they don't just power up to full settings and blast through those crates?
And when exactly have they ever penetrated armor on an AT-AT's caliber before?
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
Democracy is the very definition of awesome.
Nobody has yet to respond to my points...should we consider this debate a victory for me then?
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
Democracy is the very definition of awesome.
Come back when you've actually countered the points levied against your argument.
I have to say, though. This is genuinely the funniest thing i've read all week and i've been reading Danny Wallace's "The Yes Man" and it's pretty damn funny but you've stole the show with this absolute cracker.
I genuinely didn't know it was possible to be that delusional.
WTF? You haven't even come close to winning this debate. Answer this:
I've tried to rebuttal your rebuttal to my argument that the Aclamator is millions (now, I realize, BILLIONS) of times more powerful than the Enterprise, and you have ignored my rebuttal.
And at your so called "argument" involving "omg Star Trek has phased weapons!!!" I've already responded to that. Now respond to the above.
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
Democracy is the very definition of awesome.
Last edited by Hewhoknowsall on Nov 15th, 2009 at 11:08 PM
because they're not trying to vaporise the entire corridor and bring whatever building they're in down around them. plus, starfleet officers rarely want to kill their enemies.
even the kill setting is one of the lower ones on the scale.
you make it sound like the at-at armour is that powerful. a fully powered phaser can blast through much more than the standard star wars blasters by a long way.
rick berman (i think it was) actually said in an interview that they had to make the phasers look less impressive, because if they were shown as powerful as they were, firefights would be impossible.
KMC Community Forums
Nov 12th, 2009 11:28 PM
