That has nothing to do with what I said. You stated a few pages ago after a made the claim that SW has more numbers since we're using of their forces shown/mentioned in their history, which for SW is FAR larger, and you countered by saying that we're just discussing whose technology is better, which we actually are.
No, you're not getting it. What I'm asking you is if these phased weapons were made by people from an alternate timeline. I have yet to come to a conclusion about how SW counters phased weapons because I still need more information on them. With cloaked fields, I already explained how SW counters that, plus ST might not have the resources to put them on every major planet.
This is really getting annoying. Do you know what I said? I said that cloaking fields HAVE DISADVANTAGES that prevent them from being used on every ship, otherwise they would've been used on every ship (since most races have some form of cloaking). Technology can have drawbacks. This has NOTHING to do with whether or not they HAVE the technology.
They can SHARE the tech, but again the tech still has drawbacks that can be exploited. Don't you get it?
This is probably one of your most ignorant posts to date.
GEORGE LUCAS STATES THAT SW BOOKS ARE CANON!!!
ST STATES THAT ST BOOKS ARE NOT CANON!!!
However, since apparently you believe that referencing OFFICIAL sources is "desperation", I'll just use your logic (as you keep on claiming to use mine) from now on.
I've countered every one of your arguments, and you've just kept on coming up with excuses. Stop making yourself look like a fool.
You are suddenly bringing up stuff that you haven't brought up before (mainly because you thought that ST would win easily without such superweapons), ie weapons that are ST's trump cards. This quite clearly shows desperation.
And, since we're going by your logic, anything that is stated by the official companies to be not canon is now canon, so I imagine a fan fic where SW has the Ultimate Nullifier, so now it does. Sure, official sources say that fan fic isn't canon, but then again official sources say that ST books aren't canon and you bashed me for pointing that out, so yeah, SW erases ST from existence.
Oh, NOW you're specifying (although I don't think that it was a turbolaser). However, since we're going by your logic, I'll imagine a fan fic where that was because the weapon that was used was from ST that somehow got there through some dimensional portal, so it wasn't powerful enough to cause significant damage even that hanger bay had (in my now-canon-based-on-your-logic fan fic) been exposed point blank to a supermassive black hole and it's canon (to think otherwise would be "desperation" on your part).
How come you started claiming that my figures were false just a while ago? For most of the thread you admitted that it was correct but claimed that it's justified because the Enterprise isn't a war ship, but now after you've realized the stupidity of that argument you've changed it.
Also, I'm using CANON FIGURES (stardestroyer.net got them from a canon book).
I imagine a fan fic where SW has God on their side. SW stomps.
Star Wars EU is still from the same timeline.
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
Democracy is the very definition of awesome.
Last edited by Hewhoknowsall on Nov 18th, 2009 at 09:47 PM
I think I am beginning to see a pattern here. I think that the winner would be whomever fired first. A well placed shot can cripple an army.
But thats not what we're debating about. I would say that about 75% of this thread has been something like this: "You didn't counter my last comment!" or "That can't be proven." or "Thats a bad argument!" Now, over all, I like Star Wars better for its storyline. But, that doesn't make Star Wars win. Facts laid all out, in a universe to universe battle, Star Trek wins. Star Trek has more advanced technology than Star Wars and has (arguably) more resources to call upon.
__________________ Much to learn you still have.
-Yoda
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
Democracy is the very definition of awesome.
I'm not even going to try and guess what this is supposed to mean. Rephrase it and get back to me please
Although I presume that i has something to do with the SW timeline covering a longer period than ST and so it has more people to throw into the fight. Even though it's utterly irrelevant because all of the SW timeline still don't measure up to the sheer numbers of Borg and Dominion existing in 1 small part of the ST timeline. Not even mentioning the entirety of fluidic space to draw upon Species 8472 numbers.
The Krenim exist in the main timeline. It's the use of their temporal weapons that CREATE alternative timelines.
Have a read about the double episode called "Year of hell". What'd be even better is if you could find away to watch it. Not only will it show what the Krenim time ship can do but it's damn entertaining. (Not in half because the bad guy is Charles Boddicker from Robocop)
Other phased weapons exist within the standard timeline.
And my point is that if they can share 1 technology (the cloak) then they can share other technology that prevents them using cloaks in the 1st place (lack of power...although I have no idea where you got this as a reason why some races don't have cloaks) The only reason I can think of off hand for the federation doesn't have cloaks in the era of the Enterprise D is a treaty with the Romulans that mean the federation using them would be considered an act of war. This point would be moot if they were combining forces to take on SW though (as it was when they were fighting the Dominion)
See above.
So it's not desperation? Is that the same as you asking me whether phased weapons are part of an alternative timeline only in some thinly veiled attempt at disallowing them as well? You've already disallowed Q and the Douwd (for understandable reasons)...You tried to disallow Species 8472 by claiming they were part of a completely alternative universe (even though it was clear you had no idea whether they were or not)...Then you tried to limit the number of phased weapons based on how many you see in canon sources but at the same time trying to include thousands of galaxy guns despite there only being 1 in canon.
As for you using an official source. You haven't used one yet. You've used a blatently wrong (proven to be so) opinion of a SW fanboy from a SW fanboy website. How this equates to "official" is beyond me. And how this is more "official" than me directly quoting the shows and films is even more beyond me.
Continuing to claim that you need more information isn't a counter to a point (and that's all you've done regarding almost all the ST tech i've mentioned) Even when I do provide more, you don't even bother to read it or watch it.
So again. Where's your counter to the multikinetic neutronic mine?, The Krenim time weapon?, Transphasic torpedoes?, Ablative armour?, transporters that bypass shields?, Shield draining torpedoes?, Magnetometric guided charges?, Q-guns?, The Phoenix rift?, The Omega particle?,
The Krenim time weaponship exists outside of space and time. As such it is completely impervious to any weapon that doesn't exist on the same plane as it does as they simply pass through as if it wasn't even there. The ship itself can fire on a planet and completely erase an entire species completely from ever existing. It also fires torpedoes that exist outside of space and time and then reappear in space and time once inside shields or even inside enemy ships.
It's effectively indestructable unless someone on the ship disables the mechanism that allows it to exist outside of normal space and time but given that no enemy can transport onto the ship in the 1st place because it isn't on the same plane of existence as them then how would an enemy disable the mechanism anyway?..
Do your best to directly tackle that one piece of technology and I'll start showing you a bit more respect.
I've mentioned the Krenim ship numerous times on this thread already. Just because you didn't know that temporal meant time doesn't mean i'm mentioning it for the 1st time.
Or is this you now trying to disallow ST superweapons yet allow SW superweapons? More gimping to try and eek out a win?...They're not trump cards. They're simply pieces of tech that exist in ST that you have no counter for at all.
So your imagined fan fiction would be more legitimate than the SW films?...To be fair, that's probably the only way you're going to win this debate. To simply imagine that SW has things to beat ST tech. Given that you can't answer the points using real SW facts.
Consider this though. Canon is ST's case means extra events that aren't considered part of the same story ark as the shows. Does this mean that they aren't officially licensed by ST's creators?...No...Of course they have to license the products otherwise they wouldn't be allowed to bear the name Star Trek. Hence they're "official" and so applicable in this case.
True. However you claim that SW timeline covers millions of years. I'm aware of the fact that it's universe is supposed to be some 10,000,000,000 years old but what actual useful species could they put into the fight from way in the past? Take one you've already mentioned for example. The Rakatan "infinite" empire. It lasted about 10,000 years and at it's peak covered only 500 worlds. Compare that with the Borg, whom, as I stated before covered millions of worlds. Not only that but the entire Borg species is war capable. They don't have an army gaurding/policing a much larger civillian population as SW does in the form of the empire etc.
So how where do you get your numbers from that just because their timeline is longer that they automatically have more troops to put into the fight? State the official figures that match the Borg in terms of numbers.
Basically, you said that we're just discussing technology here. And we should be, since this debate started with you claiming that ST has superior weapons and technology than SW in a rebuttal to my claim that SW has superior weapons and technology.
Ok, I'll look at it later and then respond to it.
That doesn't make any sense...since the ships are cloaked then the Romulans never would've known if the Federation had cloaked ships.
How is not allowing stuff THAT ISN'T CANON desperation? SW books are considered by George Lucas to be canon. ST books are not considered by ST to be canon.
Since when have you proven it? In response to my Aclamator = billions of times greater than the Enterprise point you:
1. Said that it's because the Enterprise is just a science vessel, but I countered by saying that the Enterprise isn't billions of times weaker than a ST equivalent of the Aclamator (which you still haven't directly responded to yet, other than the below).
2. Then, you suddenly changed your mind and instead claimed that the Enterprise not only isn't billions of times weaker...but it would actually WIN!
Most of those I've already countered multiple times, but others you haven't actually brought to me yet.
gtg, I'll respond to the rest later (as in tomorrow probably)
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
Democracy is the very definition of awesome.
Last edited by Hewhoknowsall on Nov 19th, 2009 at 12:00 AM
There's the details of the treaty of Algeron. It is odd though because the Romulans had no contact with anyone for 53 years after the signing of the treaty so unless there was some espionage and spying on the Federation during that time then they wouldn't have known whether the federation were developing cloaks or not.
They are official though. Just not taken into consideration in the main timeline of ST. Especially given that many of the works have conflicting stories.
SW itself also has 4 levels of "canon" and a further 9 of "officiality". Much of which contradicts other parts of canon.
You made the original claim of billions of times more powerful. I knew it was bullshit but didn't have my figures on hand and I knew i'd already countered the point in another thread. I responded anyway and you didn't accept the argument so I then dug out the old figures (which are 1st level canon) and gave them to you. You then attempt to criticise me for changing my approach to the point despite asking me to do so on this any many other occasions in this thread. (Most of which I don't need to as I've clarified my points to a ridiculous extent and your refusal to acknowlege them is you just being obtuse and feigning a lack of understanding (i'm giving you the benefit of the doubt in that you may actually understand my points but just don't want to admit they destroy yours) is not a reason for anything i've posted being invalid.
Your asking for more information on them isn't a counter. I've provided more than enough canon information on the weapons. You simply don't want to acknowlege that I have so you can still insist that i haven't proven their effectiveness against SW and how SW has no counter for them.
So again I ask for the counter of one weapon...The Krenim timeship. How would SW weapons destroy a ship that exists outwith their own plane of existence and can fire weapons which materialise inside their plane of existence after bypassing their shields. How does SW prevent the timeship from going to any and all SW systems and simply erasing ever major technologically advanced species in the SW universe from existence so that they effectively get put back to the stone age?
I looked at the page, but I really don't see how this brings down SW. This one weapon was from a different timeline, and even if we allow it, the Federation was able to successfully develop shields that protect against it, and since SW is far superior to the Federation in terms of both technological might and industrial power, they should be able to too. Even if not, they could capture a ship loaded with them and reverse engineer them. Although this really doesn't matter since it's from a different timeline.
Which is my point, but oh well...even with that however, cloaks don't cloak gravitational fields either, and I highly doubt that ST would have the resources to cloak every single ship as well.
Really? I've checked multiple sources and they all say that ST books aren't considered to be canon.
"despite asking me to do so on this any many other occasions in this thread" what??? I asked if ST's equivalent of an Aclamator is billions of times more powerful than the Enterprise, and yet you suddenly changed your argument. Is it just a coincidence then that you got the figures on hand right after I asked you a question that you wouldn't be able to answer?
I've countered Q guns as they are part of the Q and therefore aren't allowed via the thread specifications.
I've countered solar system destroyers as SW has them too.
Some of the weapons aren't anything special, just more powerful than usual guns...hurray?
Your main point seems to be phased weapons, but none seemed to have been invented by the main timeline, and even then SW weapons would pretty much tear through ST shields as if they weren't there anyway, sort of like "phasing (in this case tearing)" through them. Also, wasn't the Enterprise able to survive several hits from these torpedos? This implies that the torpedos wouldn't have the firepower to take down a SD before the SD destroys the starship that's using it.
First of all, since SW spans quite a while of history, is there any evidence to suggest that this weapon can erase a million or so years of history?
Second of all, it only travels at warp 6, so it would take quite a while for it to go to each and every major SW planet and erase them all, as well as the SW fleets.
Third of all, as I mentioned earlier, SW could learn to develop temporal shields just like the less militaristic, less advanced and not as rich Federation did in a shorter amount of time than what SW would have (due to the vast number of planets to spare).
You're going through one of your nice phases again.
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
Democracy is the very definition of awesome.
Last edited by Hewhoknowsall on Nov 19th, 2009 at 11:47 PM
It's not from a different timeline. It's weapon CREATES a different timeline every time it's fired. Which is why it would decimate SW without affecting ST at the same time. Because none of the species from each have ever encountered each other. (Shame it may well wipe out ET's species though.)
Were also not going on what they might be able to do, are we? Were going on what's actually canon. SW doesn't have temporal shielding.
Again your applying conflicting parameters to the 2 factions in order to gain yourself an advantage. You're effectively proposing that resources and mixing of technology can be mixed and shared in regards to SW but disallowing the same thing to ST.
Either each species gets what they have on screen and in canon/officiality or they can share tech with one another and resources to build those pieces of tech in large quantities are unlimited. So which is it to be?
Sources please?
How is the enterprise ST's equivalent of an acclamator? It's not a frigate...It's not a Warship.
I can link to the post with those figures that I put in the other thread months and months ago seeing as you seem to be implying that i've just made them up to counter your argument.
From January 1st (Happy new year) It's about 2/3 the way down.
They were weapons weilded by humans to fight the Q.
The Borg weapons doesn't destroy solar systems...It destroys areas thousands of times bigger than solar systems. An area of 4 light years...In comparison, our solar system is some 20 light minutes big.
It's wiped entire species from ever existing so my guess would be yes.
Did you deliberately not read the part where the timeship exists outside of space and time and so can't be hit?
So no...The SD would be utterly incapable of destroying it.
You didn't even restrict other timelines anyway. I can only presume you're trying to do so now to further gimp ST in order to scrape a win. Regardless....Once again, the Krenim and the timeship exist in the main timeline. It's the use of the ship and the weapon that changes the timeline.
You obviously didn't watch the episode or read up on how the weapon works. It doesn't have to travel to every planet. Once it fires on one, a temporal wave travels through the galaxy and every related person or technology that was on the target planet is erased. Take for example if they fired on Corascant and stoppe it from ever being populated. Every person that was ever born and every technological advancement that was ever started on that planet would be erased from history. That means every decendant of any person ever born on that planet would be erased from history.
Given how so intertwined the species are on SW this would be utterly devastating to it's timeline.
What if it fired on Kamino?...The Clone troops would never have existed. Every piece of technology ever created by Kaminoans would vanish.
Again, we're not dealing in what they could do. We're dealing in what they have done. The only way this applies legitimately is actually in ST's favour...Not SW. In that the Borg, by what they do onscreen, assimilate other species technology. If they assimilated a single SD then they would automatically have all the knowledge about their armnaments and be able to adapt to them rendering them useless. Although up until now, I haven't played that card yet as there's been no need (still isn't)
Really? Memory Alpha says that the events transpired in an alternate timeline.
Neither did ST before they encountered the weapon and quite quickly adapted to it.
You don't get it. They can SHARE tech and resources, but they DON'T HAVE ENOUGH RESOURCES TO CLOAK EVERY SINGLE SHIP!!! Even if they share resources, they won't be able to get enough to cloak every ship: the more factions, the more resources that can be shared, but the more ships you'll have to cloak as well (as you'll have to cloak the ships from said faction). Therefore, they can share resources, but they'll all have to cloak their ships, which wouldn't be all that feasible.
Go to google and type in Star Trek canon. Seriously. Basically every page you read says that ST books =/= canon.
Um...yeah, you sort of misunderstood what I said. I asked if ST's equivalent of a SD is billions of times more powerful than the Enterprise, and of course I wasn't referring to the Enterprise when I said "ST's equivalent"; why would I ask if the Enterprise is billions of times more powerful than the Enterprise?
Weren't those quotes from more advanced Enterprises?
But they were invented by the Q continuum, right?
So it DESTROYED everything within 4 light years? If so, then that's cool and useful for ST...but doesn't amount to an automatic victory. Sure it could destroy a star system and everything within 4 light years, but since stars are generally located quite a while away, it is likely that the weapon wouldn't be able to engulf many star systems at once; maybe at most 2 or 3, which is really just a slight improvement to the Sun Crusher.
It's wiped out colonies from ever existing, but how long had those colonies existed?
Again, SW could develop temporal shields, or if not, the fact that the ship only travels at warp 6 would mean that by the time it had gotten a significant distance, SW would likely have won.
Plus, what about its fuel and such?
I said a few pages ago that we aren't allowing alternate timelines...and you didn't voice ANY complaint...until now, because including them really is the only way that ST stands a significant chance.
Really? Then how come it never tried firing on a key planet such as Earth, which would've wiped out all of humanity from ever being? Or Vulcan? Or any major planet? And no, since it only travels at warp 6 it would take ages to reach Coruscant, in which case by that time SW could've evacuated it or something (does that work? Does the weapon target the people or the planet itself?)
True...if it could actually reach one of the planets.
Kamino is a very seclusive world that most didn't even know existed, so how will ST even know about it?
Well then, let's just compromise:
Option 1: No adapting at all, but that's the same for the Borg.
Option 2: Yes adapting
Which one would you prefer?
And notice how I am suddenly being nice as well (even though my mood isn't necessarily good or bad)?
You are implying that you weren't being civil before.
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
Democracy is the very definition of awesome.
AFTER the weapon is used. It existed in the standard timeline until the ship erases itself and establishes a completely new and what can be considered the alternative timeline (bit of an odd paradox to think that all the events after "year of hell" are reall the alternative timeline)
Point is they did...On screen. SW have not.
What's your basis for presuming they don't have enough resources? A cloaking device is, after all, only a small piece of kit. You claimed that it might be due to the inability to generate enough energy but if they can share technology then they would also share the ability to generate energy more efficiently as well.
I would also argue that, canonically, there is more planets either named or given in numbers on ST than SW and so they would actually have MORE resources in terms of raw materials.
It can be looked on in 2 ways. Some argue that anything not written by Gene Roddenberry is not canon yet he, himself rubbished that idea by saying that he wanted ST to go on after his death. If it's not to be considered canon that that discounts 6 movies and 3 tv series. Clearly silly. He also considered his own novelisation of a movie (written by him) as non canon yet other publications as canon.
One thing related to both the above issues is that the new movie is considered canon yet is an alternative timeline.
I wouldn't want to hazard a guess as to what the equivalent would be.
The difference being that it can be deployed anywhere. The sun crushers has to be deployed in a solar system. If ST species decided to keep the bulk outside of solar systems in order to neutralise the sun crusher then they could but SW couldn't do the same with regards to the MKNM. Besides ST already has an equivalent of the sun crusher in the form of the trilithium torpedo which one man built several of on his own.
It generally wasn't colonies. It was homeworlds in order to destroy entire species. It's never stated how long those species existed but it's irrelevant if you deploy it against a homeworld anyway as it's where that species evolved in the 1st place.
Simple question. Does SW have any mention of temporal shields? The answer is obviously no. To argue that they might develop them is quite obviously not canon and a nonsense argument and I think you know that. It would descend into "Well ST might do this to counter that" and vice versa...With none of it based on what was actually in the respective films/shows etc.
You're also arguing FOR the sharing of technology. Thus I can argue that the Borg would share their transwarp tech with the Krenim and so it could be deployed anywhere in the galaxy within minutes.
The ship didn't need fuel as its temporal core existed outside of time and so, like the people on the ship, would effectively exist forever.
So you're admitting that you're trying to gimp ST so they don't have a chance. Sounds like an admission of defeat to me.
Again we come back to the "sharing technology" argument that you're fond of.
Well that's a bit of a transparent ruse isn't it? No subtlety at all. If I say adaptation should be allowed then you say that SW can adapt to temporal weapons (despite there being no evidence for them being able to) despite the fact that the Borg canonically adapt by assimilation on numerous occassions. Your proposed trade off is me allowing SW to do something they don't do onscreen in order to allow ST to do something they do do onscreen. Hardly fair is it?
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
Democracy is the very definition of awesome.
So by erasing something, it doesn't actually affect the main timeline? So how does it actually affect this battle in this timeline? Or am I misinterpreting something?
Fair enough...maybe
Species X will have to provide for themselves
Species Y will have to provide for themselves
etc.
Adding in more species into the coalition doesn't really do a terrible lot in cloaking all ships, because that species will also have to cloak their own ships as well. So the amount of resources available will increase with more civilizations, but so will the ships/planets that need to be cloaked.
Really...and how would you argue that?
Whether or not it's silly is not important, as canon is canon...and your opinion does not determine that.
What??? My point is that whatever the equivalent is wouldn't have as big of a power gap as there is between an Aclamator and the Enterprise.
But can't this weapon be destroyed (whereas the Sun Crusher is virtually indestructible)?
Problem is that it would take ages to actually reach Coruscant.
I guess.
But would the transwarp be compatible with the time ship? It may sound like a stupid question, but I really don't see how a civilization that can create a weapon capable of destroying space-time can't make transwarp.
Really...and what is your evidence for that? It exists outside of regular time space, but wherever it really is time must still pass in some way, or otherwise the crew wouldn't be able to do anything.
You didn't disagree with it until recently, when you dropped all other arguments and pulled out the time control trump card...even though you claimed before that ST's tech is far beyond what SW can imagine, which implies that their overall level is higher.
Didn't they get temporal shields simply by adjusting the shield frequency? Doesn't SW have shield fequencies?
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
Democracy is the very definition of awesome.
Last edited by Hewhoknowsall on Nov 24th, 2009 at 11:40 PM
Take, for example, if it was to attack Corascant. What this would mean is that every single person ever born on Corascant in all of it's existence would never have existed. This would also mean that any of their desendants would never have existed (even if they were born on another planet)
Not just the people but any technology that the effected people ever invented would cease to exist.
This would manifest itself as a temporal "wave" travelling through the galaxy which when it reaches a planet, people and technology would simply disapear.
There's no maybe about it. It's solid and undeniable fact.
That's fine then. But what that means for your argument is that you can't use the Star Forge to make countless galaxy guns.
The Borg are stated as having assimilated millions of inhabited worlds.
I there's over 1000 named worlds in ST compared with SW's 700.
I see HWKA has a fondness for stirring up star wars vs. topics. There's some factors that I'd like to bring up (i'm a fan of both fictions, but I am more knowledgeable about ST and prefer ST to SW as a result. That doesn't preclude me from using logic however).
1. First of all i dont think if it was ever clarified in what manner the battle was taking place....i.e. if the ST and SW galaxies suddenly become adjacent to each other, or if it takes place in 1 galaxy.
2. Secondly, from a purely field tactical standpoint, any discussions involving the capabilities (meaning, fleet size, weapon strength, shielding, etc. etc...this does NOT include tech, more on that issue later) of Starfleet, the Klingon Defence Forces, the Romulan Imperial Fleet, the Cardassian Fleet, etc. etc. are for the most part irrelevant. This is largely due to the huge majority of the vessels that comprise ST lore involved in this thread will come from 3 prolific entities: The Borg, The Dominion, and Species 8472. This is because the entire fleets of the Federation, the Klingons, the Romulans (the three main races of Trek) are dwarfed by the Dominion's fleet, which in turn is dwarfed by the Borg, which in turn is dwarfed by the universe-spanning species 8472 (stated to have conquered their entire native universe in "Scorpion"). The Feds, Romulans, and Klingons wold literally be perhaps 1 ship out of every 10,000 in this combined Trek Universe fleet, or even 1 out of 100,000.
3. Where the Feds and Roms and Klingons come in is tech. Feds as mentioned have transphasic torpedoes...Roms have thaloron radiation...and the Klingons have....the Sword of Kahless.
4. Regarding the Borg and Species 8472: It was mentioned that the Borg would fall proven a huge magnitude of power was brought to bear on them. This is partially true. Nothing in Star Trek lore has stood up to the Borg (excluding of course, Q-like beings) entirely due to the Borg's ability to assimilate technology. It wasn't so much that species 8472 had inordinately large power (they did, but that's not why the Borg lost) as the fact that the Borg nanoprobes could not assimilate Species 8472 at the cellular level. This is because Species 8472 is completely organic....their "tech" is organic and their state of biological evolution is so advanced that literally have a "healing factor" going on: borg weapons are useless against species 8472 because the immune system of 8472 defeats and destroys the nanoprobes, and their tissue regenerates at a level that outperforms shielding. This is the ONLY reason the Borg were defeated. The Empire has technology that can very EASILY be assimilated. This is simply seen by looking at the death star (high end imperial tech). The death star has wiring and control panels. But more tellingly..R2-D2 can access information from these computers. Borg technology>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>R2-D2. Borg tech uses nanites to convert alien (to them) technology at the cellular/microscopic level. Star Wars wont be assimilated if: they have a sufficiently robust organic immune systems on-par with species 8472. correct me if i'm wrong but the organic race of SW known as the yuhzan vong doesn't seem any where near as robust.
Another thing in ST's favor is that they have a very, very, very high margin of error thanks again to the Borg. A fleet of 20 super star destroyers can engage 30 Borg cubes and various swarms of Dominion attack fighters. The entire trek task force can be eliminated by the SSDs...but if just 1 Borg drone lands itself into any electrical panel inside any of the SW ships, and injects its nanoprobes into the circuitry (not looking for an information conduit like R2-D2, just directly into any panel that carries circuitry, which, for the Borg, makes this process far more proficient and *lethal*) is enough to give that drone technical schematics on frequencies for weapons/shields and other tactical data.. The problem is compounded further if the borg drone encounters a storm trooper or any other imperial officer or crew. They are instantly assimilated and made into a new borg drone. In the best case scenario, the 2 borg drones proceed to assimilate at a geometric rate until the entire crew are all borg...indeed the very ship itself belongs to the borg. In the worst case scenario, the 2 borg drones are killed by blaster fire. well the information pertaining to the death of 2 borg drones is instantly relayed to the collective, who then orders its trillions of drones to adapt accordingly, making that particular blaster, and all blaster identical to it, useless against all matter of Borg technology. This is made possible because of Borg assimilation. SW does not have an organic immune system to repel borg nanoprobes..the only thing that is capable of doing so. Again, all it takes is 1 drone for this to happen, which is why i said the margin for error for the borg is very, very, very large. The empire isn't exterminating the collective like species 8472 was simply because the empires technology can be assimilated; something the borg couldn't do against the entirely organic 8472.
Any technology employed by the Mandolorians would suffer a similar fate. Borg tech far outstrips mandolorian tech and it took some 10 years for the republic to contain just the mandolorians.
__________________
"It is unwise to battle the Power Cosmic." - Silver Surfer
5. Espionage: no one has brought this up yet and i'll be the first to state that ST has the clear and decisive advantage on espionage over SW. Unless jedi were to mind-probe every single living being they come into contact with, the clear advantage remains with ST. Tal-Shiar (Romulan intelligence) and the Obsidian Order (cardassian intelligence), along with Section 31 (Starfleet's CIA), would coordinate with the Founders (leaders of the Dominion), who make the perfect espionage agents (the Founders can shape-shift into any organic or inorganic (i.e., a rock or chair or a handbag) form, hold that form, and do everything that form can do. How many schematics (i.e., plans that show the exact specific weakness of certain imperial super weapons...like say, the Death Star) can be surreptitiously acquired in this manner? How many admirals, generals, grand moffs, clone trooper captains, imperial transport shuttle maintenance workers, etc., would the jedi be able to mind probe before a well-placed Dominion agent strikes? In star trek canon, dominion agents have replaced high-ranking starfleet admirals; replaced the highest ranking general in the klingon empire, while simultaneously creating misdirection that it was the klingon head-of-state who was apparently replaced, which caused doubt amongst allies and stirred up discord; conduced sabotage to assassinate high-profile targets, etc. etc. The Dominion have done this and are capable of doing this, and will be able to do it against SW. The federation developed countermeasures only because they actually had a member of the founders' race willingly aid them. That's it...that's the plot device which enabled the federation to counter such high level espionage.
6. Tech: As soon as I read the thread I knew SW wouldn't be able to countermeasure chronal technology used in ST (time travel). As mentioned the krenim wield this tech. There are actually several races in trek that use time travel...so many in fact that a "Temporal Accord" was created. Now you could argue that these races represent a possible future...but i could aslo argue that they represent star trek main timeline canon due to the simple existence of the "temporal accord." Namely, the accord is designed to insure that no one manipulates the past such that things develop differently than expected. This in effect is a "law" to "guarantee" that the future in which the law was created in the first place, will come to pass. This is convoluted but i'm using it to point out that it's by no means as black and white as "possible timeline/alternate timeline" and is a gray area a tthe least. In any case, the point is moot because the Borg possess time travel capabilities (Star Trek: First Contact). Also, the Vulcans/Starfleet also possess time travel technology. In fact, small ships funciton as time machines (from this year's Star Trek movie). This is cannon to star trek because the time machine is part of the "official timeline" and is used to create the "new timeline" with Spock, Kirk, etc.
7. The Borg, part II: The borg are so crucial to ST that i felt they merit a second entry. The borg possess transwarp hubs which allows them to literally project their power into the entire star trek galaxy. You may ask why haven't they taken over. THe answer is really quite simple...story. The borg is one of those characters/forces that if written to use their full capabilities...there wouldn't be any story to tell. Kind of like how every comic book with Flash as the main character should really last about 3 panels at most, if Flash were to be written to his full capabilities. Same with the Borg. They can use the transwarp hubs to enter any part of the galaxy at will. the travel time takes only a few minutes. This is obviously a huge technological disadvantage for the feds and everyone else, which again explains why the borg dont use them to its full potential: story. However this is aside the point as Voyager has used a borg transwarp hub to cross the galaxy. so the technology exists, it's been used, and it's been proven effective. as mentioned before, the borg also have time travel.
8. Species 8472, part II: Another entry for 8472. As mentioned, they hail from another *dimension* entirely, fluidic space. They have entirely conquered that dimension. their planet-busting capabilities dwarfs that of SW. SW has planet killers, yes. But they have nothing as versatile as a standard battleship that can combine firepower with 8 others and obliterate a planet in seconds...as opposed to the deathstar which must power up, fire, cool off, and travel with its immense bulk. War is determined by who can deploy their weapons faster for effective use. Here species 8472 trumps SW because their weapons are not space stations but rather highly mobile, small craft, which number in the millions. One other thing that gives 8472 an edge (even over the borg). They are able to create and open quantum singularities, which is sophisticated enough to grant them very fast inter-dimensional transportation. Needless to say they can do this, then they can strike anywhere in the SW galaxy at will. the actual species members themselves are the most proficient ground-combatants in the star trek universe...easily manhandling borg drones with 1 motion and telepathically communicate with each other...negating all communication issues. victims that they inject with their genetic material (like from a cut or open wound) wind up turning into another species member...kind of like the borg assimilated drones but on an organic scale. in this contest, the most ubiquitous combatant that SW would face in a close encounter would be species 8472, followed by the trillions of borg drones, then the manufactured jem hadar, with your occasional starfleet and klingong and romulan thrown in.
9. strategy: strategy is quite simple. You could invoke the star forge/galaxy gun scenario, but this would be irrelevant to the largest ST race (species 8472) because they reside in a different dimension than either trek or SW altogether. So that tactic will only affect the minority of the ST forces. The borg planets are all uniform in importance...there's no capital world like coruscant or earth or whathaveyou. what matters are the transwarp hubs and the unimatrix 0. if we are to assume that SW knows where these hubs are exactly (as well as the unimatrix) then it's just as fair for ST to know exactly where the star forge is and for the borg to transwarp in and assimilate the whole damn facility, or for species 8472 to open countless quantum singularities around the place and destroy it with multiple planet-buster attack formations before it got underway. so yeah...it's best to assume neither side knows where the important facilities of the other are. no one on St knows where kamino is, and no one in SW knows where the ketracyl white plants are, and so forth.
This brings us to espionage and intelligence gathering. As stated above, ST has the clear advantage, with multiple dedicated spy agencies and indeed a race that using shape-shifting for sabotage and assassination at its head.
to sum up. there are three tactics ST has which SW has no countermeasure for, which is what leads me to say ST wins.
1. Borg assimilation and transwarp capabilities. The only "tech" ever proven to beat the borg is their ally now.
2. Species 8472's sheer numbers and destructive power, and ability to near instantaneously appear anywhere due to advance inter-dimensional singulariies.
3. Dominion-led espionage. The dominion will also provide the "cannon fodder" for the ST side in the form of tens of thousands of jem hadar fighters and mass production of vessels that approach the SSD in size (the jem hadar super battleship)
4. if the above three should somehow fail, then either the federation or the borg can simply go back in time and kill anakin as a kid, or cause the sun that the star forge orbits to go supernova while the star forge is being buil, etc. etc. etc.
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"It is unwise to battle the Power Cosmic." - Silver Surfer
actually there is a significant role for BSG and LOTR. Cylon sleeper agents (they look human. some even think they are human/imperial/republic. There are many copies (clone troopers? uh oh).) would get around the jedi mind probe as they genuinely believe they are with the republic and what have you. when one dies another takes its place with memories intact. combined with the founders, this is an unbeatable espionage combination. It would be exactly like Order 66 but on a terrifically more devastating scale.
Final LOTR. well here is your counter to all the force adepts. while high end adepts like exar kun exist, ring wraiths would be more than a match for the average jedi. sauron with the ring of power should be able to take on an army of jedi on his own.
this doesn't even factor in the godlly (as in, similar to Thor, Hercules, etc.) beings depicted in the Silmarillion, which had such powerful beings that sauron was a mere lieutenant in the fields of battle. general kenobi and battalion of clone troopers against the witch king of agmar and a battalion of mixed species 8472/jem'hadar, elephants, battering rams, catapults, elves, and even an undead army (which theoretically should elminiate any SW opposition it comes across), and hell throw in some cylon centurions too!!!!! kenobi would tell grievous that he's shook lol.
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"It is unwise to battle the Power Cosmic." - Silver Surfer
Last edited by Power Cosmic II on Nov 27th, 2009 at 11:03 AM
Why choose those 2 ships though? Is it simply because you can't actually be bothered to find out any more information beyond that 1 page on stardestroyer.net that you keep referring to which also happens to have been proven factually wrong.
Clearly not indestructable though given that it was destroyed.
Wouldn't matter given that time is irrelevant to the ship and it's crew anyway.
In the episodes i linked to the crew had been travelling around in the Time ship for 200+ years and hadn't aged a day.
You keep adding more and more and more levels of gimping though. I mention a piece of tech or a species which you didn't know ST had (because your knowledge of ST is extremely limited) and THEN you say it isn't allowed....for no other reason that you don't want ST to win.
And ST's level of tech IS far superior. There is no transporters, no high level replicators, no time travel, no spacial or temporal weapons, nothing on par with the Dyson's sphere, no weapon as powerful as the MKNM or the omega particle, no type of propulsion as fast as transwarp.
If they failed to assimilate an organic race like species 8472 I fail to see how they would succeed in assimilating the Yuuzhan Vong which are also an organic race with organic ships and weapons with many of the same characteristics as Species 8472.
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Nov 18th, 2009 09:43 PM
