grargh, i gotta judge, huh? I want to give this the respect it deserves, so Thursday. Wednesday I'm too busy. hopefully that doesn't inconvenience anyone.
After reading through the battle a few times I found some key issues with both plans. Once the exchange over capabilities began it seemed like an attention to detail was completely tossed out the window by both teams. For starters, taking both plans into account, both teams came to the battlefield magically and technologically cloaked and shielded. Neither team would be able to pinpoint the other instantaneously or effect a quick strike attack, but that became the basis of argument. Moreover, a spell is cast by Mungi that keeps both teams grounded, and Beta Ray Bill has unleashed a supernatural deluge and storm (which was never rescinded) that will flood the planet. This was at the onset of battle and never accounted for in practically any of the subsequent posts and tactics. Due to this point and oversight I have to give low marks to both sides in effectiveness and debating. Debating isn't just about making points, it's also about making sense and not tripping over your previous comments in subsequent posts.
Next issue is the "my magician is more powerful than yours" stalemate. Comparing feats is in of itself futile because neither character has a common reference point. Saying "my character takes down elder gods" while the other says "well my character defended against a powerful demon" isn't going to settle anything. Similar situation with the level of evolution of Captain Comet vs. Harvey. Far too many strawmen met their fate in these exchanges, and too many scans were taken out of their context, and nothing was really resolved.
Then lightning struck (and this pun is intended):
Kris presented a tactic which actually seemed somewhat viable.
He claimed that Stormbreaker could absorb the energy and magic of the oppositions shielding and presented proof which was never refuted. I didn't buy the ploy that since Odin created Stormbreaker to give it's bearer the abilities of Thor that Bill would do everything Thor would. I'd need feats to follow that line of logic, and frankly the hammer apparently "speaking" to Bill (stated by Bill during narration) and giving him info on Earth, Thor, and Odin's experiences with Galactus doesn't in my opinion mean that the hammer would bestow all of Thor's instincts, experiences, and battle tactics into Bill. At this juncture in the battle it's not really necessary. Given the battle tactics presented and the feasibility thereof, in my opinion, the use of Stormbreaker's energy absorption abilities proved to be the trump card that swayed the battle in KM/Kris's favor, and I give them the victory.
As for the point system allotments:
Originality:
Charlotte/Gundam 1/5
Mungi/Kris 1/5
Coming into battle shielded/cloaked and blasting from behind said shielding is so 2004. Step ya'll game up.
IMO, both teams spent too much time in circular arguments, and hedged their bets on obvious plans. Luckily Kris pulled a trump card in the end to sway things in their favor, but it started out lackluster (and flooded).
Mungi is always supremely organized. I always enjoy reading his posts. It makes his lines of logic easy to follow. Kris helped by staying on message and not taking away from the established plan. I was surprised at the lack of attention to detail though. Particularly in their own plan of attack. It was exacerbated by being baited into the "my character can do this and yours can't" exchange that ate up most of the posts.
As for Charlotte and Gundam, it appeared like they had scheduling/communication issues or something. Didn't seem like a coordinated attack. Gundam needs to refine his style for tourneys. Mainly just inexperience. It's more about presenting info and tactics than going for cheap pops. Let the plan make your opponent look stupid homie.
- Don't use imagehost please. It kept trying to give me a virus. Serious as I take these things, my PC's security is more important. This is the last match I'll click on imagehost links. Imageshack or photobucket, please.
- I've seen Thor feats used for Bill before. As a general rule, I dislike it. The amount of "talking" the hammer does to Bill seemed like information and physical abilities, not advanced battle tactics or new strategies. You guys dressed it up prettier than I've seen before, but pigs, lipstick, that schtick. Be careful what you try to impart to Bill via those couple scans, because I'm not the only judge who will ignore Thor's more exotic feats being used for Bill.
- The energy soak of hammers has long been a plague upon GLs in tourneys. That much isn't in question. The trend continues.
- BN #6 made ring duplication the rage, but there's a lot of caveats about "in times of great distress" and "being sanctioned by the Guardians" etc. etc. in regards to their newfound powers. Is there rock solid proof that duplication is always possible, not just at specific times? I actually didn't discount the duplication, because I don't think it has any bearing on the match. People forget how extremely hard it is to wield a ring. Telepathic link or not, a GL ring in the hands of anyone who hasn't been a GL would be akin to giving a 2-year-old a monster truck.
- Charlotte/gundam's team has more raw power, imo. Talisman's thing is versatility, and I've never been supremely impressed with Comet. Fact is, though, that Kris and Mungi did a better job providing effective counters for the other team. Since tourneys are about repping your own team, not providing a completely unbiased view, it often comes down to not who might actually win in, say, the vs. forum but who does the better job in the 4-5 posts given to them. And by the end I was pretty convinced that, for example, Shaman had a distinct edge on Zee, Comet had enough of an edge against GL's to make some noise, etc. etc.
- Lol at comparing telepathic cock sizes..."This is a galaxy-wide feat!" "Oh yeah, well this guy heard him from another universe, bub!" You guys have telepathy. Noted. Now stfu next time please, and stay relevant.
- And despite the admirable and already-mentioned clarity of Mungi's posts, I will say that a quote from the other team more often wouldn't hurt. Was occasionally hard to know exactly what you were responding to.
- As a clerical matter, what was decided on Scuttlebutt?
Digi was the only one who got the debate score right
Thanks for all your votes Judges. For those of you who don't know, this was actually my very first tourney/battlezone match ever. It feels really good to pull home a victory in my first one. Especially when it involved such weathered debaters such as Charlotte, Psycho and KM. Hat off to all of you, and also to our respected opponents. You put up a fight at least, and that's more than most people are able to against the powerful Team Social Healthcare. Awesome judges and a great opposing team, I could not have hoped for a better first tourney experience.
Sorry for being late, I intended to be more active here but I barely could given that I'm in vacations traveling and stuff, I'm here though so lets see...
I guess my vote is not needed anymore, but I was going to vote Blaze and KM anyways, so there is that.
My reasons for those who care:
After so much messing around with the rules (whats with KM saying he controls Zatanna each post, I thought mind control was banned?), and so much circular debating (I literally thought I was rereading a post at some point), my choice came mostly to which strategy was more likely. I wouldnt accept Bill using Thor's feats most of the time but Mundi and Blaze kept it simple. I guess that keeping things simply when things were a mess was the best way to sound believable.
I didnt love the strategy of mind sharing Kyle's experience in order to have his experience as a green lantern, I didnt see any scan suggesting that TS could do that, and in my book phsychic power doesnt equal finesse nor matching other telepaths that have actual feats doing this kind of stuff. I still ran with it, but for other posters running psychics I would not let this kind of thing ruin your strategy in case you try it.
The rest was said by the other judges. This ain't about having the strongest character, but to blend their feats into a coherent and original debate. I hope to have the chance to read further matches.
Originality
Blaze/KM - 2/5
Gundam/Charlotte - 2/5
Not much to say here. Skip the go-blast strategies and squeeze your characters.
Gotta say that I expected a lot more countering, more weird interactions between power and less straight go-blast strategies. Overpowering is in my opinion, not a good debate to have, since here rules arent those of the VS forums.
It seems hypocritical to allow voodoesque stuff (mind control via soul control) and ban telepathy (how is magic better in the SAME stuff).
Cause what Mungi attempted is not some Spirit Test-like bending of spirits of nature. That's attempt to apply voodoesque manipulations on the soul of fellow sorcerers.
He's Spirit Binder, not soul\astral projection binder.
Anyways, congrats to you guys. I wasn't interested in winning that match... or to say better, I didn't care whether I win or lose.
But I'm going to make sure judges sort out the differences between voodoesque mind control via soul control and plain old telepathic mind control. "We take the souls of opposing teams under our control and make them kill themselves"=good FTW strategy. It's legality=doubtful.
Its not, as the spirits still have their mind they are just compelled to oblidge to help the Talisman. Its not mind control far from it, they even show this in Alpha Flight.
It's not telepathy *facepalm*
Actually its the same thing as he has controlled astral projections before, hence why I said it was a bad mistake to do that. Shouldn't have picked a character so obscure as I have to explain every little detail .
Talisman can't do that, the only reason I could do it here is you attacked me in spirit form directly. If you didn't, you would have been safe from spirit control. I highly doubt anyone else is going to try to go astral form against Talisman to be honest, nor was it a key stragedy in our plan you just made the mistake of going astral form which was to our advantage.
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Last edited by -K-M- on Jan 10th, 2010 at 05:02 PM
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Jan 5th, 2010 03:18 PM
still waiting on that reasonable explanation posted in my pm box......
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