As the poster above stated even if the UN is Multiversal in scope (I'm not arguing against that) just because an (admittedly incomplete) IG beat it doesn't immediately make the IG Multiversal/Omniversal. As far as I can tell the IG is a Universal artifact with other versions in other universes.
I repeat my stance above. Show me any proof that Reed using the UN would've made a bit of difference when confronting something with the scale and versatility as the IG. As i said above... What is stopping an IG from mind raping Reed or any of its other exotic abilities with time, space, reality just as it did with Quasar. Show me this stated or implied. That is your guys assumption and extrapolation from things. However, what was shown on panel is the IG beat the UN with their respected users. I see zero proof or evidence that suggest anybody else using the UN would've made a conclusive difference and beat the an IG user. So, please show me this proof of that I ask for by addressing this above and my own I quoted above.
Last edited by KuRuPT Thanosi on Nov 17th, 2009 at 09:54 PM
Hyperbolic attenutation whose only support comes from off-handed remarks, purple prose and just runs counter to the themes of the story.
Unsupported speculation that the order came down from TOAA himself. And even if you could prove that TOAA got involved, it doesn't make the IG "multiversal" by proxy. The Fantastic Four met TOAA and got him to fix Reed's face. Reed's facial complexion isn't multiversally relevant.
Nothing suggested that the 616 IG could surpass the Living Tribunal's power. Living Tribunal's completely discretionary power to simply turn the Infinity Gauntlet "on" or "off" is proof of that. The plain reading of Infinity Watch #1 shows that any confrontation between LT and Adam Warlock would lay waste to the 616 Universe.
No. Magus using his incomplete IG > Quasar using the UN. You're conflating the artifact with the user.
The fallacy of this sort of reasoning is inherent when you extrapolate it and apply it equally onto the IG. Using your faulty logic, the only way the UN could be superior in scope to the incomplete IG would have been if Quasar was completely unaffected by Magus while holding the UN. That in itself is ludicrous since the UN doesn't even grant it's user some sort of powerup/protection. But it's even more ludicrous when you apply that logic on the IG itself: Maelstrom was completely unaffected by Thanos w/ full IG. Outright mocked Thanos for his impotency and operated completely outside of the awareness granted by the full IG. Do we now conclude that Maelstrom > IG? No. We don't. Because we recognize that the IG has feats greater in scope than Maelstrom's.
Using your faulty logic, perfectly extrapolated, we've now arrived in an untenable position resulting in some absurd cosmological hierarchy wherein: Maelstrom (multiversal++ for being immune to IG) > IG (multiversal+ for stomping Quasar) > UN (plain resetting Marvel Multiverse).
Ignoring the absurdity of this faulty logic as applied to the IG itself is a double standard and too convenient. At the same time, going through this exercise in deductive reasoning (as conclusive though it is) shouldn't overshadow the plain application of common sense. We know that a rocket launcher has a greater proven destructive capability than a handgun (just like we know the UN has a greater proven scope of power than the IG). Killing the rocket launcher user with a handgun doesn't reverse-project some sort of rocket launcher+ destructive capability onto the handgun, especially since the handgun has never shown such destructive capability on its own (just like Magus stomping Quasar doesn't reverse-project some sort of multiversal+ scope of power onto the IG, especially since the IG has never shown such scope of power on its own). The premise is absurd. It's just common sense.
You're confusing the issue being debated here or you're just straw-manning. The issue is whether you can rightly use Magus stomping Quasar to project some multiversal relevance onto the IG when the IG has no multiversal feats. Your queries have nothing to do with this issue.
The simple answer to your question though is between an adept UN user and an adept IG user, it's whoever acts first. It's analogous to pitting a .44 caliber handgun user and a .22 caliber handgun user against each other with the pistols to their heads. Whoever gets to pull the trigger first wins. And still, such results do not reflect on each handgun's respective scope of power. At all.
Hey my friend good to see you back around these days. I will have to disagree that what I addressed wasn't mentioned. I saw numerous people addressing the events of the confrontation between the IG and the UN. Even some people saying that it was Quasar who was the problem and it would've been different had Reed or Galactus been using it. So, my queries certainly weren't a straw-man fallacy and actually addressed people comments. Furthermore, in my post I did very clearly talk about the IG and state some things that imo make it clear it's beyond one universe and in fact multiversal. So, my friend.. Do you feel that the 615 universe in the Prime universe in Marvel and destroying it and tampering with it cause multiversal effects? Its been stated on panel IIRC that destroying the 616 universe thus in essence destroys all of marvel. What is your stance on the relevance of the 616 Universe and if these on panel narrations are true? Further to that point.. Would you agree that Eternity is Multiversal in power? So, when you beat Eternity which is the embodiment of everything.. that is in essence a multiversal feat. As again that would have repercussion throughout all of Marvel correct? Unless of course you believe in the whole that was a m-body thing which was never stated nor implied in the arc in question. To ask another question... Do you believe merging to universes together, especially one being the prime 616 universe is going be on the scope of just a universal power? Multiverse IIRC was mentioned numerous times in the arcs in question was it not? So, I'm just really unclear on how people are arguing that the IG isn't multiversal.
That being said, I agree that in terms of scale.. the IG hasn't done something along the lines of what the UN did. I completely agree with that statement. The resetting of the Multiverse was a damn impressive feat and the higher of what either did on panel. However, I would say the scope of the IG is greater than the UN. I'm not sure how that is debatable considering the wide variety of things on panel the IG has done compared to the UN. Anyways, the point is.. I did address things that were brought up in the course of various discussions. Whether the IG was multiversal.... and that having Reed controlling the UN would've made a difference when confronted with the scope and scale of the IG. As far as what you believe the argument to be.. I agree with you in terms of the scale of what the UN did compared to the IG. I also agree that the IG beating the Un with their respective users doesn't equate to the IG thus being able to do the UN highest feat. Have a good one buddy.
So you believe a multiversal threat is more powerful than a universal threat no matter what their powers are?
The ig can see your actions before they happen. Galactus also opposed the ig. I guess a feat ten years later somehow proves the un can beat the ig despite the ig's capabilities.
No, because the ig always will know the enemies first move because of the input gathered from the gems.
You are raising a stink about the un affecting the mulitverse while the ig can pose a threat to the Lt who is the multiversal judge of all reality. That doesn't mean he can phase the Lt in any said reality but he can pose a threat in the ig's very own reality which is what I have been arguing the entire time.
Ig always shows up the un based on this badboy. Knows it opponents move always beforehand. Highest feats and capabilities, right?
Not really.
No relevance at all. 616 Galactus' death can cause the destruction of the entire Marvel Multiverse. That doesn't imbue 616 Galactus with a level of multiversal power. 616 may be the foundational pillar. But while taking out the single foundational pillar of a house with a sledgehammer might bring a whole house down, it doesn't mean that the sledgehammer has the destructive force of a wrecking ball.
Multi-Eternity is multiversal in power. No. Especially when the CCU's created that alternate dimension and the effects of the merger are completely contained within that single 616 universe. To my recollection, the term, "multiverse," and derivations thereof, was not used to describe the IG's power.However, I also think it's fair to point out that the scope of power demonstrated by variety of the things that the IG has done < the scope of power demonstrated by the few things that the UN has done.
Nope.
Impy had one IG(alternative reality)and threatend to destroy an entire galaxy if Galactus didn't help him recreate hes planet. Galaxt was said like it was the most the IG could destroy. And earth heroes were trying to get the IG from impy before Eternity showed up to give him the beating of his lifetime.
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Nov 17th, 2009 09:22 PM
