Not too mention just cancelling out his force-field would not put him down even if the major part of his durability was tied to it. His healing factor is greater than Hulks, and can't be exhausted. It might be because that writer didn't know of the healing factor and/or it wasn't touched on much, but those punches alone shouldn't/couldn't take him down due to his HF. He has had his power drained and still stood as a skeleton to fight his enemy.
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Defalco wrote one of the most powerful Juggernauts, so I doubt it can be chalked up to ignorance, I think it was just lazy writing. Kind of like the days when writers would tie the source of his power to his helmet.
Should someone below Cyttorak be able to physically harm Juggernaut?
Juggernaut is already weak to mind attacks once his helmet is removed, seems to weaken him too much if his powers can be removed by magic by someone below Cyttorak
I think in my Marvel Universe I would make it this way
It was just lazy writing. Juggernaut has physically slugged it out with Thor without his FF in other instances and Thor has never come close to duplicating that same feat.
which actually lends credence to him wanting to finally end him after a already knowing his capabilities from experience, and the fact that he enslaved a planet has to add some sort of animosity
but about the field business, imo (and iirc this was addressed in the issue), thor negated mystical energy that was coming to juggernaut and he was left with what he had previously absorbed, but i assume the field takes a lot of magic to utilize so his previously absorbed energies couldn't erect it while cut off.
i'm pretty sure hat's what the writer was going for
the force field seemed to always be optional anyway, it wasn't an automatic power
Juggs has taken a god blast full on and strugged it off, Thor is always sending Juggernaut away instead of knocking him out because hes not powerful enough to do that.
Odin Force Thor isn't beating without having to resort to trickery and that Force field negation is just dumb because even without hes still pretty nigh invulnerable.
Last edited by SasuOna on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 07:55 AM
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Thor didn't negate the FF he negated the enchantment . Heck when Juggs fought WWH the first tme he powers were reduced. So juggs still can be effect the same way. Hell Thor wouldn't have to use mjolnir to effect the enchament he could use the Odinpower and then beat Juggs head in via mjolnir.
Under DeFalco, Juggernaut's invulnerability came from his force field and rightfully so. Without it, his not invulnerable.
On his own, characters like Thor, Hulk, Superman and other high end beings can and have hurt him (You don't have to count Clark because I don't remember if it was in the actual crossover or the tie-ins).
I remember having this debate a while back and listing a number of showings where he was affected by physical damage without it. I can probably find that list again.
Cain's durability is not unlimited or whatever bullshit some members spout. He can be hurt, and once you reach high heralds, I'd heavily argue he will be.
I will say this, it's probably a power that most writers have forgotten about and there are contradictions (I can't get into detail because it's been a while since I did research on this topic. I'm going purely off of memory here). On the other hand, when was the last time Juggernaut was invulnerable to high herald level force? Merged Hulk, Onslaught, War Hulk, and World War Hulk are the last times I can recall Cain going up against higher end level forces.
In conclusion, I think Juggernaut's a ***** to hurt, and more durable than most beings under Trans, but once he faces forces like a pissed off high herald, his not invulnerable. His not falling down like a stack of cards or anything, but his going to have to rely on something else other than his durability to win him the fight.
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Last edited by Rage.Of.Olympus on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 11:52 AM
Most of the time if Cain has been hurt it has been through irregular circumstances.
Thor has never hurt Cain without the aid of magic.
Hulk has never hurt Cain unless he was using Celestial Technology.
Onslaught was weird and showed a number on inconsistencies with Cain and took some liberties with him, but hey every character has awkward moments. Thor ahs them, Superman has them why make them anymore than they need be.
And yes you may find random panels throughout Cain's history where he does says things like Ahh or OOmph all classic sounds of pain if you actually look at the effect these attacks have on him they are zero.
As for taking on High Heralds the guy has his showings why deny them. The guy has been stated many times to be a serious threat for any hero and Marvel wants him to be a serious threat to any hero. At least there was a time where this was so.
The one time Cain took on Thor without his force field (At least a healthy one although he had it up half way in their first fight) was during the 8th day thing where Jurgens had him significantly amped (Probably because his a writer that doesn't think Cain can go toe to toe with a pissed off Thor level character without his field). And even then, 8th day Juggernaut was not invulnerable and I'd argue he started feeling Thor's hits in the end.
Merged Hulk definitely affected Cain with his attacks. PAD I'd wager also thought Cain wasn't invulnerable to higher end forces (Which is why he had Cain dodge the one time Hulk throw a punch in the earlier encounter). World War Hulk also hurt him with a punch IIRC.
The biggest problem with the onslaught thing IIRC is that the Gem was supposed to be in space. Cain's probably most akward scene is when Beast depowers him by removing his helmet. I don't know what was up with that one.
I think somewhere down the line writers just attributed his invulnerability to his force field when he faced high heralds. Guess that made more sense. Shrug. I for one don't think his higher end durability was tied to his force field in his first fight with Hulk. I don't remember if he was completely invulnerable though.
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Last edited by Rage.Of.Olympus on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 12:04 PM
In the 8th Day Saga Cain showed no signs of Thor's attacks having any effect on him.
And my account still stands Thor has never hurt Cain without having to effect Cain's enchantment.
Are you talking about Proff. Hulk? The one where he sucker punched Cain and took him to a knee and Cain was getting right back up showing no ill signs from the attack.
WWH Hulk only hurt Cain after he had just went through the portal and was still not at full power.
And I used Onslaught because he was a character you mentioned, but yes the Beast was also very awkward.
And there has been times Cain ahs faced High Heralds or Higher without resorting to his Forcefield so there hasn't always been a precedent for it. The main one that comes to mind is Nightmare who fought to a standstale without using his FF.
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