Gender: Male Location: Following the Source of Light.
Having been unable to discuss this around the Christmas holiday, when it was relevant to the Wily vs Eggman battle on Screw Attack.com, I bring it up nearly six months later to address some points I missed in my absence as well as new information brought to light by the recently released Sonic 4: Episode 2.
... by shooting a Wily Robot decoy, which explodes in his face. Victory to Wily.
Except that the majority of the time, Robotnik's best relies on the Chaos Emeralds rather than his own tech to work. The rest he's stolen from his predecessor, ancients, GUN, and so forth.
Wily has his own fleets (seen in MM8 and MMV) and has built his own planet threatening space station, the Wily Star, which relies on his own technology and not mystical artifacts. Wily simply has better tech most of the time. He has mobile fortresses that operate like giant mechs equipped with their own weapons (MMIV, MMPF)
You may doubt if you wish, but that is the stated power output given for Metal Sonic by official sources (Japanese Sonic Channel website). As for Metal Overlord, his power increased due to Metal Sonic's ability to scan and mimic the abilities of others. After copying Sonic, Shadow, Froggy and Chocola, he was able to increase his powers far beyond that of Metal Sonic, but you'll note that this had nothing to do with Eggman's tech. He was unable to shape shift on his own.
[SPOILER - highlight to read]: Now, in Sonic 4 Metal Sonic receives an upgrade from a mystical artifact that apparently permanently increases his power, but again, this is from a mystical source and not Eggman's technology.
The Death Egg's only impressive showing was in Sonic Battle. I'll deal with this later. ARK wasn't Eggman's tech and needed the Chaos Emeralds to function. Wily has built the Wily Star and its planet-busting superweapon purely with his own tech and resources. No mystic items needed.
It certainly is more destructive, but does "a bigger gun" really represent higher technology? Wily has created tech that can stop time, control the weather, and rearrange matter and energy (X5's Zero Space and X6's Nightmare Phenomena). That piece of tech, of course, was named Zero and centuries after his construction, the world's top minds couldn't fully analyze him. Eggman has nothing like that.
Wily has also created technology capable of wresting control of tech he hasn't built. This is one reason he would overcome things like Eggman's MKII Death Egg. Stealing tech is Wily's MO and there really isn't any defense Eggman might mount against such an attack.
Last edited by Acrosurge on Jun 13th, 2012 at 02:13 AM
Gender: Male Location: Following the Source of Light.
Apologies for the double-post, but I forgot two important points.
1) The Death Egg featured in Sonic Battle is (according to the timeline introduced in Sonic 4) the Death Egg MkII, which was constructed by Eggman around the Little Planet to harness its energies. The Little Planet is a natural, Earth satellite that contains the potential to manipulate and travel through time. Its no surprise, then, that Eggman could use the Little Planet's power to cause several stars to vanish. Its also no surprise that this tech relied on a mystical planetoid rather than Eggman's skills from scratch.
2) The durability of Eggman's robots does not appear to be that great. Woodland creatures can destroy them pretty easily by colliding with them. Many of these creatures do not have super speed, durability, nor super strength. This should be cause to doubt the hardiness of Eggman's designs.
As I recall, the Chaos Emeralds are a power source more often than not. Most of Robotnik's designs do not explicitly require the emeralds, but do get a boost from them. I won't argue that he hasn't stolen things, but that seems to imply, at least in my view, that Robotnik is able to reverse engineer quite a few things for his own use. Including mystical sources, of course.
I'm not sure I saw anything like that in either of those games. The closest thing MM8 had was Tenguman's stage, with flying whale and snake robots. Those don't exactly seem to stack up to Robotnik'sships, many of which are hundreds of meters long and very heavily armed. As for MMV, the only possible reference to a fleet I could find was the space stations near each planet; however, those, much like the Stardroids themselves, are likely ancient technology Wily simply found. I'm not sure they were even armed? With the Wily Star, I'm afraid its only real showing is this, where its laser is not much larger than Megaman himself. There weren't any references I could find to planet threatening potential save for the super weapon Sunstar, who is a Stardroid Wily also found somewhere.
Wily's space fortress, eh. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX49so4XSqE#t=5m5s
Yeah, it seems decently well armed with some turrets and what appears to be a large cannon, but it's pretty severely outnumbered and doesn't have much indication of its actual power. Maybe I'm missing some things, but I don't see the better tech, at least not fleetwise. It appears to me that Robotnik has the advantage in a battle due to air and space superiority, that Wily's one or two space ships can do little about.
I doubt simply because it directly conflicts with quite a few of his appearances, usually related to Sonic. Since Sonic is often stated to, as well as shown to, be able to move at the speed of sound, Metal Sonic having "all of his abilities, and more" does not mesh well with a "mere" 55 horsepower. That being in addition to his shown abilities like breaking through walls and spikes that Sonic can't. Metal Madness I would still call an ability of his, not unlike Megaman taking the weapons of others. Yes, he was only able to shapeshift into Metal Overlord because he copied the power of Chaos through Chocola and Froggy, but that still means that Robotnik's tech can copy and use Chaos' abilities without needing an actual Chaos Emerald. There is no reason Metal Sonic could not do the same to Wily's tech.
I suppose, but again it seems Robotnik's tech can merge pretty well with nearly anything.
Again, I'm not sure where the Wily Star's planet busting superweapon is, as the only thing in Megaman V referred to as a superweapon was Sunstar, an ancient alien Stardroid that Wily simply found and reactivated.
Well, Robotnik has a non-Chaos Emerald powered time machine. Again, the designs are all there, the Chaos Emeralds are typically just the power source if he's not using live animals. Metal Sonic, too, is fairly impressive if only for his copy ability.
Isn't the Megaman Zero version a full copy of Zero's body that was more powerful than the original? That was Omega's whole thing; he was the original body of Zero, completely controlled by Wiel, but was defeated by a "mere" copy. Though, Zero was destroyed and rebuilt a few times in the X series, so it's hard to even tell how much of him was left for Omega. Further, I'm fairly certain the Nightmare Phenomena was due to Gate messing around with Zero's parts and changing the virus, as it was never physical before that game and stopped doing it immediately afterwards. Not sure Wily should get total credit for that one.
I'm less sure. Wasn't the Maverick Virus only really a threat to Reploids, and that mostly due to Dr. Cain being unable to fully copy Megaman X? It gets complicated quickly, but it's typically just Reploids and Mechaniloids that go Maverick, and most of the rest of the series is based on the Sigma virus or other variations or mutations, which aren't really Wily's original design anymore. Since the original Maverick Virus simply makes things go berserk, but only later versions exert any control over the infected, it's not as if Wily would really be able to control Robtnik's forces. And, if Wily's MO is stealing tech, I'm not sure why Robotnik should be faulted for using other sources, specifically mystical ones, when most of Wily's designs are explicitly ripped off of or stolen from Dr. Light or other scientists.
It's not as though he was actually using the Time Stones to make stars vanish, though. He used the Final Egg Blaster to destroy them, again only using a mystical artifact as a power source. He designed it, he built it, and the only real problem he ever seems to have is acquiring power sources. All of it is still his own original tech.
That depends entirely on the robots and creatures in question. Sonic and his friends are legitimately quite powerful and many of them do have super strength or similar powers. Who are you talking about specifically? As for the robots, I would agree that the mooks aren't as durable as, say, a robot master, but they don't seem any worse than Wily's weaker robots.
On the OP, which I just remembered:
1. Robotnik should win a good fist fight.
2. Pure chance, assuming they're forced to play fair. Still a toss up otherwise.
3. Wily tends to have better elite style robots. Robotnik has a Mega Man in Metal Sonic, but he's not exactly as reliable or numerous. (Nor is Zero for Wily, both effectively being traitors.) Things like Egg Pawns or the E-100 series are on par with the Joes, in my opinion.
4. Again, Wily seems better on the robot front, whereas Robotnik is better in the "other machines" category. The Wily Machines/Capsules are roughly equivalent to Robotnik's mechs, if less numerous.
in the Japanese verison Sonic Generations both Eggman and Robotnik are called Eggman by Tails. basically Tails says There's two Eggmen in the Japanese verison. the Japanese script is diffrent then the american script, the american script has word changes. pretty much the american script isn't a exact translation of the japanese script and has things changed for the american gamer.
so in Japan Eggman has always been know as Eggman , while in American he had been know as Robotnik , then got changed to Eggman.
Gender: Male Location: Following the Source of Light.
Semantics, I suppose. The way I see it, Eggman relies on mystical sources to make his truly exotic and advanced machinery operate (Death Egg, Little Planet, Metal Sonic, Chaos Energy Cannon). Wily accomplishes many of the same effects without these sources.
The Stardroids and Sunstar were definitely discovered by Wily. They are the only tech mentioned in MMV to belong to that ancient civilization. The stations that followed were constructed by Wily. I'm unaware of any material that states otherwise.
If it comes down to tech in battle, then you must consider the real ace that Wily holds that makes air superiority less of an issue. Teleportation. With it he can teleport any of his robots to a specific destination anywhere in the Solar System (observed in MM3 and MMV). This tech is not limited to relatively small items and humanoids. Larger robots, such as the Escaroo and Kabatoncue have been teleported in MM4. Problem with an Eggman station? Teleport Robot Masters to its core to blow it up the same way Sonic and his friends always do.
Well to be fair, his secondary power source, Tesla Power Coil, could output 256kW. Now, we don't know how many kW it could output per second. It could very well supply his estimated 275 lb frame past Mach 1. I see no contradiction between these statistics and his Sonic CD performance. Remember that after this in Sonic 4 (and pre Sonic Heroes) that he gets his mystic upgrade to increase his power.
Chaos's powers are mystic in nature. Could Metal Sonic have even copied the data of more than one person without them? After Sonic Heroes, Metal Sonic has not been capable of holding more than one person's ability at a time. This is why I cannot attribute Metal Madness as an innate ability of Metal. He needed mystical help to get there.
That machine needed a Chaos Emerald to operate, did it not? Afterall, Eggman later mentions that he needs Elise's power all 7 Chaos Emeralds in order for the device to be complete. No surprise there.
If that's true, then why all the hooplah over the supposed Ultimate Lifeform and Chaos Control? And why use animals for a power source at all? Surely this is vastly inferior to Metal Sonic's power source. If Eggman has the tech, why doesn't he use it?
This copy body was created centuries after Zero's original activation, yet still contained the heart and soul of the real Zero. This was the reason he could triumph over the bestial Omega. But Zero's copy body was created using the original as a guide, but without the dangerous integration of the Maverick Virus into his DNA.
Zero's body was totally intact during his sealing, prior to the process of transferring his spirit into his new copy body. After his first destruction, he was rebuilt as per Dr. Wily's finished specification seen in Power Fighters by a reploid named Serges, who was heavily hinted at actually being Dr. Wily (MMX2). Much of Zero's body was destroyed by Sigma in X5, at which point Wily again stepped in to repair him (MMX6). Wily's handiwork seems to follow Zero around wherever he goes.
Gate experimented with Zero's DNA and his virus, but he didn't do it alone. Isoc was actually the one tasked with running these experiments and he was possessed by none other than... wait for it... Dr. Wily. All this brings up another important point. Zero, Dr. Wily's masterwork, utilizes DNA. Eggman, again, has nothing to match this level of complexity.
The Maverick Virus has been stated to affect reploids (machines with souls) and mechaniloids (machines without them).
The Zero Virus was, again, created with Wily's direct input. Likewise the Nightmare Phenomenon. Why wouldn't we attribute this to Wily?
I suppose the difference, in my mind, is that while Wily can control the best technology of others, the stuff he's built from scratch is no less impressive, whereas almost all of Eggman's impressive stuff must rely on mystical sources or the work of others.
Then why use the Little Planet for the Final Egg Blaster? Why not just use the Chaos Emeralds as usual? It would appear that Eggman needed the distinct properties of LP to make his Final Egg Blaster work; as if the LP was the actual gun and bullet and the FEB was the barrel.
Tails has no super strength, durability, nor speed on Sonic's level. He has no problem's damaging even Eggman's bigger mechs. Likewise, Espio, Amy, Charmy, and even Cream have no problems scrapping Eggman's robots just by bouncing on them, this calls the reliability of Eggman's designs into question.
Based on? Wily's robots get destroyed by focused, energy weapons. We've never seen them fall apart because a bee tackled them. The materials of the Classic era have some pretty clearly marked durability feats. Ceramic Titanium, for example has an impressive resume of heat, electricity, and cold resisting feats. Neither Eggman's badniks nor his mechs have true, quantifiable durability feats as such. In that light, most of Wily's materials and weapons seem superior.
Last edited by Acrosurge on Jun 18th, 2012 at 03:00 PM
Gender: Male Location: Following the Source of Light.
Do Eggman's mechs have durability feats? What leads you to believe they are sturdy? And why would you start with the assumption that anything that damages a mech must have super stats?
Why should we start with the assumption that Eggman's robots are durable, especially when impacts delivered by Tails, Charmy, Rouge, or Cream can cause significant damage? Again, these characters have never been stated in canon to have super strength or durability.
Occam's Razor tells us that they are at least as durable as any ordinary, construction used metal in the least.
Its like with any other random character doing collateral damage. Say this guy punches a normal looking wall and his fist breaks through it. Oh hey...that wall has no durability feats whatsoever. It must be that the wall is weak.
No. The point is that the character is super human.
---Besides this, his robots DO have durability feats, simply from being able to handle their own weight and move around, that is a durability feat, and shows that they are sturdy enough for that.
Wily uses designs based off of Dr. Light and many others, though. The very concept of the Robot Master was Dr. Light's, and the original 6 were all stolen from Dr. Light, as were the ones from MM9, as well as Break/Protoman. Even after all this time, that Wily has not deviated far from the Robot Master indicates he doesn't have a great deal of original designs. Heck, the Maverick Virus can easily be traced back to Roboenza or the Evil Energy of MM8. Bass was created by accident while Wily was trying to copy Megaman, and that accident led almost directly to Zero's creation.
I just don't think it's difficult to find reasons to dismiss accomplishments if you go looking for them, is all.
I see. Is there any material that states they're armed in any way?
If there was an indication that the planet was destroyed, I'd gladly accept it. As it stands, though, Megaman teleports away before we see what the blast would do. Further, the blasts themselves are relatively small, being 8-12 feet tall if Megaman is 4 feet tall. That's roughly on par with the blast size of the Egg Carrier of Sonic Adventure, and since that's all we have there isn't much to say it's planet threatening.
Ah, okay. Still, it seems to be one ship, and most of it's weapon are devoted to being difficult to board as opposed to actual combat.
To a specific destination, yes. I'm not sure I recall Wily having that great teleportation tech. The ones in his base are usually two-way and require a pad at either destination, and his Wily Capsules appear to be extremely short range. I didn't see large robots being teleported in MM4, either, and I believe they're Dr. Cossack's designs anyway. Bass can teleport like Megaman, not surprising since he's an attempted copy, but I haven't seen other Robot Masters teleport.
The specific model in Sonic Heroes is Neo Metal Sonic, and it turns out he's able to shapeshift before copying anyone. In fact, he disguises himself as Sonic in order to capture Chocola and Froggy, and does not seem to have copied Chaos' data until after Team Rose's playthrough, and even then it's only a fraction of the data he used for Metal Madness/Overlord. It's an ability of Neo Metal Sonic, at least, but Robotnik reprogrammed him after Sonic Heroes for obvious reasons, so the Neo form hasn't reappeared.
It didn't appear to. He was using Elise as a hostage to get the Chaos Emerald, but it's not as if the platform Sonic put it on was the engine. Robotnik built the thing without using an Emerald, and even if it was incomplete he still achieved time travel.
He uses animals because he's a jerk that turned Sonic's animal friends into robots. Metal Sonic, most of his mechs, and nearly all of his other robots do use conventional power sources. Very few, if any, of his machines actually use chaos control in favor of just having a nigh-infinite energy source. He does have the tech, and he does use it. Mystical sources are just better at producing energy more often than not.
Though it does seem they understood him well enough to make a body so similar the heart and soul could not tell he was in a different body, no? Still, it's not as if his advanced technology was dramatically greater than things available in the X series, given Vile, Sigma, and others than were capable of greatly harming him.
I thought Zero "hid [himself] to repair [himself]" in X6. I can't comment on Serges or Isoc, being fairly speculative, but okay. As for DNA, Robotnik is no stranger to it, having created several hundred clones/copies of Shadow and, again, turning living creatures into robots. That is assuming DNA data and DNA are the same or at least similar. Though, other reploids and mechaniloids are said to have this DNA data as well.
Wasn't the Zero Virus mostly Sigma's plan, after infecting the Eurasia colony and crashing it to combine it with a different form of the virus? It was two mutated strains of the same virus combining, as opposed to something actually created with intent. It's hard to tell how much Wily actually does given the focus on Sigma and vagueness of possible hints.
I disagree, though, that mystical sources somehow diminish Robotnik's accomplishments. I don't see a huge difference between using magic energy and reprogramming other people's robots or basing designs off of them.
I don't think the Death Egg of Sonic Battle even uses the Little Planet as a power source. The end of Sonic 4 seems to indicate that the Death Egg MkII and the Little Planet separated, so it's doubtful that the Sonic Battle version still uses it, even if it was rebuilt.
Tails had similar stats to Sonic since Sonic 2, I don't see a reason to think he's much less than that. Espio is a highly trained Ninja, Amy uses a massive hammer, Charmy has a powerful stinger, and Cream typically relies on Cheese for attacks. Aside from that, Tails, Amy, and Espio can achieve speeds similar to Sonic, while Charmy and Cream are capable of carrying and throwing Vector (+Espio) and Big (+Amy), respectively, which implies a great deal of strength from either of them.