Oh so you're trying to argue she's stronger because she overcame his strength enough to move a few feet, despite his strength is greater than Superman AND Wonder Woman's combined? How is that not making an argument that comes-out as Wonder Woman>Wonder Woman+Superman+More in strength?
Yet, you ignore this.
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Power Girl(who by Diana's own admission is AT LEAST as strong as Wonder Woman), Martian Manhunter, Kilowog and several others attempt to restrain Superman. He still breaks-out. Superman has more examples of several trying to restrain him and struggling or failing than MAN OF TOMORROW #13. Which, by the way, I should add you've failed to admit you made a false claim about the JLA saying Superman was stronger than normal.
Just show the actual examples and quit making-up rules that you don't even adhere to so you can dismiss examples proving you wrong.
And what the Hell are you talking about? And I hope you don't come back without actual examples, instead of the BS you've been using.
And that's relevant to Salsa showing fights Superman's had with Wonder Woman Pre-CRISIS, HOW exactly? This is either another strawman, or another reading comprehension fail.
STRAWMAN SO HARD YA FAIL AGAIN SALSA!!! Being blown away and KOed has nothing to do with strength. And the fact that you were simply covering the Pre-CRISIS fights tally is irrelevant.
You're illustrating one of the reasons I originally decided to respond to this thread. Everybody makes excuses for Superman if HE loses a fight.
Few, if any, stop to examine why Wonder Woman wins or loses.
Has anyone YET from the Superman side let Sacrifice go as a Wonder Woman win WITHOUT commentary?
"A win is a win"?
Then why the continual chorus of "He thought he was fighting Doomsday", if people truly felt secure with that premise?
Why should only Superman fans, including the moderator, be allowed to give reasons for a performance success or failure for Superman but no one be allowed to give one for Diana?
Why should it be thought strange if some one points out that Diana had some significant performance-affecting issues, too?
Wonder Woman does not get "true" comicbook flight, at least as most readers understand and/or envision it today, until George Perez begins writing her.
At best, she periodically possesses the ability to "glide" on air currents.
Periodically.
Oftentimes, she can't even do that.
The first "Justice League of America" adventure illustrates this quite well:
Wonder Woman and Superman. La Brea Tar Pits Parallel.
Image 1 of 4.
Diana is shown climbing by cutting handholds in the cliff face instead of simply leaping up to the top.
She demonstrates the strength to hurl a boulder halfway around the world yet shrinks from beasts who would not require half that level of strength to deal with.
Superman drops within meters of kryptonite.
Superman retains his invulnerability even AS he is being affected by kryptonite.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Justice League of America #1, Volume 1
Writer: Gardner Fox
Penciller: Mike Sekowsky
Date: November 1960
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Justice_Le...America_Vol_1_1
OK, let's take a look at the context for Superman's wins.
A LEAGUE OF ONE: hm What exactly would be handicapping Diana here? Her not wanting to fight her team mates? Doesn't really seem like a legitimate excuse, because she put all but Superman in danger. And she admits she knew she couldn't beat him. That coupled with the fact that he didn't put-up much effort in their fight pretty much proves that he's superior to her. Not to mention that I don't even SEE anything that should truly hinder her performance considering she was willing to risk the lives of her team mates.
JLA #96: You mean how she was outnumbered and didn't want to hurt her team mate so she'd hold back? Well, those vampires other than Crucifer clearly weren't a major threat to her considering how Batman handled one. Unless you're willing to say her fighting skills are so sub-par compared to Batman's that even with her much greater strength, speed and durability she's in trouble with a couple of vampires. Superman was handicapped as well. He was likely weakened by lack of sunlight and possibly the vampire feeding on him, he was being controlled by someone who was less effective with his powers, AND it was shown he was actually fighting the control so despite Crucifer making him fight her, he still held back. Plus, Diana did temporarily get some help from Nudge(I think that was her name) that did cause Crucifer to lose control long enough for her to get in her best hit. I think the circumstances hindering Superman do balance-out her situation, especially since the vampires were little more than a distraction.
The FOR TOMORROW FIGHT? You mean her conflicting emotions? uhhhh She was still willing to try and KILL him. Sure didn't look like it was handicapping her as much as you wish. Yeah, the end had her really getting emotional, that could've been the reason she decided to give-up. But considering her previous efforts and him treating her like she wasn't a threat, I think it's grasping at straws to be doing this. He knew how powerful she was and her capabilities from previous fights and being her team mate. Yet he still didn't feel she was a threat. That says a lot more than anything you can come-up with.
SUPERMAN/BATMAN #15? That time was being messed with so she didn't have any power-ups? Hey, guess what? Same goes for Superman. She was trying to reason with him? Yeah, she was. AFTER she had KILLED BATMAN just a bit ago. Clearly she had no qualms about harming Superman. It's quite obvious the only reason she was trying to reason with him was a last-ditch effort NOT TO DIE. Not because she was reluctant to hurt him. She was blind-sided? Maybe. But that says more about her inadequacy compared to him than a justification for her losing. He overwhelmed her. Despite the statement you Wonder Woman fanboys and fangirls cling to from JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA, Superman is faster than her. He showed it in FOR TOMORROW. He showed it in A LEAGUE OF ONE. He even arguably showed it in INFINITE CRISIS #1 when she tried to kill Mongul with her sword, but he stopped her AFTER she had already gone to attempt the coupe de grace. And his speed showings are simply more impressive. More numerous too? Yeah, but that's on TOP of being better, so it's no excuse. If she was faster than him ON TOP of being such a better fighter, then she'd do a whole lot better even if she's less durable AND not as strong, let alone stronger like you so desperately claim.
FINAL CRISIS? Well I don't know the exact circumstances, I know she was under some sort of control. But considering how he took her down, and HE WASN'T ACTUALLY GOING AFTER HER, but she was downed as a SIDE-EFFECT of him going to breach a force-field, I don't see any performance hindering issues being relevant here.
Now, you're not one to accuse the Superman side of making justifications. Diana CLEARLY only won because of the handicaps Superman had from his mental state in WONDER WOMAN #175 and #219. If his mind weren't so primitive, he wouldn't have been distracted giving Diana the chance to end Circe's spell with the lasso. If he actually knew the tiara was coming, he'd have avoided it. You tried to justify this point by saying Superman doesn't normally dodge things, and used Konvict hitting Superman to back your argument. Pr already pointed-out Superman generally lets himself be attacked by new opponents to gauge them. This is something you failed to acknowledge. Do you HONESTLY think Superman would've let himself be hit by her tiara considering he's been cut by enchanted edged weapons before? Do you have the balls to answer this question? I have a feeling you won't, but hey, you could surprise me. But anyways, yeah, if you actually look at how poorly Diana generally did, and we can SEE the mistakes Superman made in his mental state, then how is giving the context making excuses for Superman? Clearly Superman is much more powerful, too much for Diana to handle when he goes all-out and has his wits about him. The other fights pretty much back this.
Now, back to you're not one to accuse others of justifying things. What about all the times YOU have made excuses, invalid excuses in fact, to dismiss when Superman's blatantly overpowered Diana? MAN OF TOMORROW? You'd have a valid point, if it were not for the fact that Superman looked no better against Orion there compared to their previous fight that can't be explained by Superman already having a power-up. You tried to justify it as Orion's even more durable than Superman, and had helped. I proved you wrong about durability, and pointed-out that the "help" Orion had consisted entirely of Green Lantern restraining Superman with chain constructs for exactly as long as Superman didn't try to break them, and Barda snuck-in and blasted him before Orion threw his final punch. Then after this being hammered at you for so long and you finally acknowledge it, then you try to justify it as Orion's a great warrior. He is a pretty skilled fighter. Problem is, he showed no great skill in his fight with Superman, so that's not a justification. All you do is keep saying how Superman's powers work, he was Sun-Amped, blah blah blah blah BLAAAAAH. No matter how many times you're proven wrong, you fail to admit Superman showed no NOTICEABLE boost in power. And "noticeable" is the keyword. I admitted Superman could've been a little stronger than normal, but the reality is, it wasn't enough that it would make much of a difference. And this is corroborated by the previous issue in the storyline that Superman's MUCH stronger than Wonder Woman. She tried to use the lasso to restrain his arm, he tossed her like a ragdoll. And it wasn't like the example you gave for her fighting an Omac, that she grabbed it's body and threw it. No, she was actually trying to restrain him, and got tossed casually for her troubles. This was AFTER Superman had been fighting Green Lantern and Batman had exposed Superman to some synthetic Kryptonite. Which, while it had little effect, is worth mentioning. What about the him restraining her at the beginning of WW #219? Well, you gave a decent justification. I admitted that. But after seeing what had happened in the previous issue of the storyline, that obliterates your justification. He forced her down, and she did indeed struggle and resist. But she failed. And then when he grabs her by the throat and she fails to break his grip? Yeah, every justification you made was just pathetic. She failed to break his grip using a technique that allows you to break the grip of a STRONGER attacker, but she still failed. The examples in FOR TOMORROW? Her reluctance to fight him? If this was a rare example, you'd have a point. But there's at LEAST 3 other examples of him overpowering her or otherwise showing to be stronger than her than this, FROM the 2003-2011 time period you claim she's stronger than him in. And what about INFINITE CRISIS #1? You never even ACKNOWLEDGED that example. And there's no way you can legitimately justify it. She was trying to kill Mongul, she had already gone for the skill strike to Mongul when Superman was AWAY from her, and he stopped her before she could connect. She wasn't even thinking about him until AFTER he already stopped her.
So, yeah. You make even more justifications, and most of your justifications are NOT legitimate, are merely excuses. Actually, I'd have to say that ALL of them are, considering how you continue to cling to them after being shown they're worthless.
By the way, Blue. I'll pass that message along to the kettle. But what was it again? "You're black?" Yeah, I think that was it.
Gender: Male Location: The Fortress of Solitude in Venus
There is a reason for that. Superman is the one who gets the strength feats somewhat often for some reason.
Because this is important to the context of the fight. I have not seen a Superman win where He is doing weakness exploitation to Diana, Maybe because Superman does not need extenuating circumstances to defeat Diana? but Diana does?
I don't think being unable to fly is not = to being fighting under hallucinations.
You think is the same?
So far what I have seen for Wonder Woman it tells me that to think she is STRONGER or as STRONG as Superman is an assumption that is proven wrong by the mountain of evidence presented.
Based on all the evidence provided in favor of Superman it seems that believing that Superman is Stronger than Wonder Woman is a justified conclusion and not an assumption.
This thread needs a "Route56" page.
Page 32 has URL stock for a linkdirectory.
And page56, which we're nearly at, should prove perfect for the task.
Salsa, in answer to your question, in the context of the first fight of Justice League of America v1 #63, where the engagement is won by simply and suddenly moving a relatively light 150 pound unanchored woman from point A to point B,
the answer is "yes".
Being unable to fly means Diana has about as much chance of effectively resisting sudden superbreath as she would have of making an express elevator stop taking her to the 2nd floor of a building with the car 6 inches from being there.
He did create the circumstances that had Superman require to sneeze, but Mxy didn't do it himself. It was Superman's sneeze.
So, prove Wonder Woman having true flight would've made a difference.
By the way, Superman throwing the upper floors of the Lexcorp building(a lot more weight than, well, ANYBODY Superman fights) into orbit isn't even his most impressive feat, but how often do you see people being knocked away when he punches them? So, yeah, I don't think your excuse really matters.
By the way, you didn't seem to have a problem with small weight when you brought-up an Omac example to argue Wonder Woman's strength, even though she was basically just throwing the weight of a normal person.
She was willing to risk them because she was calculating to do just enough to slow Superman down so that HE'D be able to rescue them, but without enough time left over for him or anyone else to interfere with her and the battle against the sure-death of DragonFlame.
If Diana does too much damage to Supes or even forces him too battle her too long, her friends die, because he's not well enough to save them in time. But her friends face CERTAIN death if she takes no action against them and lets them fight together against the dragon.
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Jun 13th, 2012 02:27 AM
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