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Superman Vs Wonderwoman
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Delta1938
True King of House of El

Gender: Unspecified
Location: United States

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Other thoughts in mind:

6 blind men and elephant.
All convinced they are right.
All right to some extent.
All wrong to some extent.
Would benefit greatly from being able to share what they are experiencing with each other, but have to be willing to listen and take the time to do that ...

-------------------------------------------------------------------


That might be true to a degree. But considering that you've failed to account for proof in some of your arguments, such as the fact that Superman's had a power-up between ACTION COMICS #586 and SUPERMAN: THE MAN OF TOMORROW #13, and had a power-up(technically multiple power-ups) between SUPERMAN: THE MAN OF STEEL #13 and WONDER WOMAN #219, and have failed to provide any ACTUAL showings for Wonder Woman being stronger, you would be blind, deaf AND dumb(note, I'm referring to you can't speak, not insulting your intelligence. But I REFUSE to be Politically Correct and say "mute" instead, just like I refuse to refer to autistic people with a genius-skill as "savants" instead of the previously used "idiot-savant" and refuse to refer to midgets as "Little People" because F being Politically Correct!! It's stupid and is causing problems that shouldn't be happening; but I'm clarifying because even in this context "dumb" can indeed be confused).

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
"bouncing around eras charge" is a catch-22

It's what I SAID I would do almost from the beginning.

And it's really not bouncing around. Scan through the thread from the beginning and you will find it going in chronological order, slowly but surely, 1940s and William Marston, 1950s and Kanigher, JLA and Gardner Fox, 1960s ...

The older comics are useful for making analogies and illustrations.
Simpler with less complex stories, but often more extreme situations.
So you can often illustrate principles and concepts a lot easier and then demonstrate how they are at work in more contemporary stories.


This coming from the guy who dismisses examples from before 2003 as they "don't count" because they "are really different characters" and refusing to concede when proven wrong multiple times.

Now, I understand what you're trying to argue. Too bad though that it's all a strawman argument, and thus is irrelevant. Stick to the actual showings of feats, direct contests of strength, and comparative performances against common opponents. Superman beats her in those categories all through-out 1986-2011. Of course we don't need to include everything between 1986 and 2003 to prove it, but using those examples just strengthens the point.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It's also the only real way to address an argument that may or may not have been said here, but ALWAYS comes up on other board discussions of Superman and Wonder Woman and whether or not it is "legitimate" to have her ranked with him. Does Wonder Woman have a HISTORY to justify people's regard?

Again, our friend Suprememan provides 3rd party illustration:



suprememan

Posts: 21
Registered: 6/1/07


Re: How MUCH stronger than Superman is Diana?
Posted: Sep 14, 2010 5:18 PM in response to: guest2

Conceptually or not though, Superman has a history of doing things like moving planets. It's fine to add that to her abilities but it is something new although it is justifiable under her concept.




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Supreme was then shown some instances of Wonder Woman moving the heavy stuff then, though, much as you can see in this thread and have probably seen elsewhere by now, and note the response ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




suprememan


Posts: 21
Registered: 6/1/07


Re: How MUCH stronger than Superman is Diana?
Posted: Sep 16, 2010 7:51 PM in response to: guest2


Well, color me amazed. Obviously Superman doing stuff like that (and I'm sure some other characters did such things too though not necessarily by strength) is simply more remembered and hyped.

Strangely enough, I am quite happy to lose this argument. I have felt that Wonder Woman *should be* portrayed as on Superman's level though I can see arguments both ways on that one and have ocasionally gone the other way but I never really thought she had been portrayed as being on his strength level which was the primary issue for me. But clearly there were events where she was.


So, this stuff DOES affect how people think about the characters.
And it DOES matter to people.

The very fact that this thread got more than 10,000 views added to it since I started posting here should tell you that, and I actually took one or two screen captures of the KMC viewcounts FOR this thread and posted THAT earlier IN this very thread if you want to prove that to yourself.


The problem with using Supermeman's response is he's ignorant of Superman's history, is effected by the "Shock-And-Awe" effect of learning Wonder Woman's feats, or some combination of both, to miss that, even though you've proven she's pretty strong even in the past, she's still inferior to Superman. Superman creating a star still beats Wonder Woman towing one. As I pointed-out, a more accurate analogy than your "what's more impressive? Moving a house or building it with bricks?" is my "what's more impressive? Moving a doghouse made of titanium or molding a mass of titanium into a doghouse with your bare hands?"

Old Post Jun 17th, 2012 01:29 PM
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ankur29
ankur

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Delta1938
And here we have Superman WEAKENED--

http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums...
xposure/


--still showing to be stronger than Captain Marvel, catching his punch.

(please log in to view the image)



...sidenote...

thats a really bad example.
the punch grab and the following toss here looks more like a MA move. Redirecting momentum where you need not be as strong as your opponent.

very tai chi ish.
Thus It does not look like Kal is stronger than CM. In every appearance they have been in together CM has been stated to be just as strong as SM.

Also there is only one example where CM is powerstacking hercules and Atlas's strength. I think this is a writers mistake imho.

Having read most of Shazam appearances , i do not remember him ever doing this aside from that instant and therefore should be discounted, he has never needed to do that to match SM's strength before.

There is another example where SM transfers in CM's body and at the end the two shake hands and CM says something along the lines of 'feel that,strength of hercules' ...i.e not herc and atlas.

(please log in to view the image)


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Last edited by ankur29 on Jun 18th, 2012 at 12:10 PM

Old Post Jun 18th, 2012 12:03 PM
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Delta1938
True King of House of El

Gender: Unspecified
Location: United States

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ankur29
...sidenote...

thats a really bad example.
the punch grab and the following toss here looks more like a MA move. Redirecting momentum where you need not be as strong as your opponent.

very tai chi ish.
Thus It does not look like Kal is stronger than CM. In every appearance they have been in together CM has been stated to be just as strong as SM.


Not really. I've seen that argument before, and it doesn't hold water. Superman is standing there and we see the punch hit his palm before he throws Cap. Not Superman side-step it and redirect the momentum. The move you're claiming what Superman did does not involve catching someone, but moving to the side so the can redirect it. This is Superman meeting it head-on BEFORE a Judo-style throw.

Also, you're thinking of Akido, not Tai Chi.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ankur29
Also there is only one example where CM is powerstacking hercules and Atlas's strength. I think this is a writers mistake imho.

Having read most of Shazam appearances , i do not remember him ever doing this aside from that instant and therefore should be discounted, he has never needed to do that to match SM's strength before.


Perhaps it is the only other example, but clearly the writer intended Cap to be stronger than normal. And I pointed-out, Superman's been powered-up since that instance, meaning even if we ignore the Atlas strength stack, he's still stronger after this example.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ankur29
There is another example where SM transfers in CM's body and at the end the two shake hands and CM says something along the lines of 'feel that,strength of hercules' ...i.e not herc and atlas.

[b](please log in to view the image)


I've seen this, I have the issue, and honestly I can't see why anybody would take this seriously as some example of equal strength, aside from a strong desire for Cap not to be inferior.

Last edited by Delta1938 on Jun 18th, 2012 at 01:26 PM

Old Post Jun 18th, 2012 01:14 PM
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ankur29
ankur

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Delta1938
Not really. I've seen that argument before, and it doesn't hold water. Superman is standing there and we see the punch hit his palm before he throws Cap. Not Superman side-step it and redirect the momentum. The move you're claiming what Superman did does not involve catching someone, but moving to the side so the can redirect it. This is Superman meeting it head-on BEFORE a Judo-style throw.

Also, you're thinking of Akido, not Tai Chi.



Perhaps it is the only other example, but clearly the writer intended Cap to be stronger than normal. And I pointed-out, Superman's been powered-up since that instance, meaning even if we ignore the Atlas strength stack, he's still stronger after this example.



I've seen this, I have the issue, and honestly I can't see why anybody would take this seriously as some example of equal strength, aside from a strong desire for Cap not to be inferior.


believe what you will, i don't mean to sound mean but i would much rather see an unbiased opinion on the matters

1) the block looks martial arty imo, does anyone else agree. the fact that he judo tosses him immediately after is why i think this. Therefore it can't be conlcuded that SM is physically through strength stopping the punch.

2)in the arm wrestling issue,that the writer actually intended cap to be stronger than usual for him to match clark when decades of history suggest he doesn't need to resort to atlas's strength(i didn't even know atlas provided him any strength tbh, atlas only ever provided stamina and has been maintained in the rest of his history).Who knows, i know it says strength of herc + atlas, but come on really?? cap needs to amp to that level to match him when direct battles between the two have suggested they were equally strong. Clark when transferred in CM's body even stated once that he felt as strong as ever.

CM has always been SM's physical equal through the decades and through SM's various power ups and will hopefully still be in the DCnU. I think CM strength and durability has varied to allow him to match SM's. It's the status Quo


3)i only referenced that issue to show CM doesn't say strength of herc and atlas... it's always been strength of herc that = power of zeus that allowed him to match SM.


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Old Post Jun 18th, 2012 04:38 PM
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Delta1938
True King of House of El

Gender: Unspecified
Location: United States

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ankur29
believe what you will, i don't mean to sound mean but i would much rather see an unbiased opinion on the matters

1) the block looks martial arty imo, does anyone else agree. the fact that he judo tosses him immediately after is why i think this. Therefore it can't be conlcuded that SM is physically through strength stopping the punch.


You might think I'm biased, but I'm also clearly more knowledgeable and experienced on the issue than you. That isn't a block. A block would either be deflecting the punch to the other side, or using your forearms(below the wrists) to shield yourself. What Superman is doing is catching the punch. What you described to try and argue he wasn't would be more like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2Ou...;feature=relmfu

Perhaps the writer did intend it to be what you think it is, but I saw nothing in the dialogue suggesting that, and we do not see a redirection of Cap's momentum. We see him meeting the punch, THEN throwing him.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ankur29
2)in the arm wrestling issue,that the writer actually intended cap to be stronger than usual for him to match clark when decades of history suggest he doesn't need to resort to atlas's strength(i didn't even know atlas provided him any strength tbh, atlas only ever provided stamina and has been maintained in the rest of his history).Who knows, i know it says strength of herc + atlas, but come on really?? cap needs to amp to that level to match him when direct battles between the two have suggested they were equally strong. Clark when transferred in CM's body even stated once that he felt as strong as ever.


If the writer didn't intend Cap to be stronger than normal, he wouldn't have brought-up Atlas at all. And whatever your opinion on it, it does NOT change the fact that Superman has had direct power-ups since.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ankur29
CM has always been SM's physical equal through the decades and through SM's various power ups and will hopefully still be in the DCnU. I think CM strength and durability has varied to allow him to match SM's. It's the status Quo


Not really. Superman has looked superior against other opponents than Cap. Like take Ace. Ace OWNED Cap. Superman, though, has done much better on 4 separate occasions. It's possible two of them were against a human Ace in a powered exoskeleton instead of an android like Cap faced(and I don't know what the power difference between the android Cap faced and the exoskeletons are), but the other two, one of them was a far more advanced model, and the other instance was actually against 3 different Ace models, one of them the same that owned Cap. And Superman did better each time. And this isn't the only comparison.


3)i only referenced that issue to show CM doesn't say strength of herc and atlas... it's always been strength of herc that = power of zeus that allowed him to match SM. [/B][/QUOTE]

Well, it's still a poor example, something I honestly think is a joke to use.

Old Post Jun 18th, 2012 05:51 PM
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