Gender: Male Location: The Fortress of Solitude in Venus
I haven't read all of your post in this topic, but I'm getting the impression that You are saying WW is almost as powerful as Superman or maybe even more.
I have seen this kind of arguments before and it actually gave me great respect for WW, though I still do not believe she is on par of SM on the long run.
Based on what I have seen, she is very powerful and I will guess between the 5 most powerful heroes below skyfather's in DC comics.
If I were to make an analogy out of this situation in physical raw strength I will say that Wonder Woman is a 9 or 10 out 10 in raw strength level, where Superman is an 11 out of 10.
And this is the same way I see Hulk's raw strength compared to that of Thor's.
I will advice you, to post your scans on a photobucket account. I have talked with a WW fan who seems to know a lot about WW and she created a respect thread on hero chat, but you are not allowed to see respect threads if you do not have an account in there, also she did tend to leave context out and some feats were a little but miss interpreted or exagerated a bit. but We all can make some mistakes, her name is fangirl101 I think.
I suppose that depends on how you quantify "power", which I really haven't been concerned with, up to OR including now.
"Power" is too big to address. If anything, I would probably say Superman is in possession of greater power, which would be COMPLETELY misleading were someone to take that as an answer of who I think is actually physically stronger between the two, as seems YOU want to know.
The overriding fact of Rucka's "Sacrifice", for example, is that Diana makes Max Lord stand down. Because she proves to HIM, at least, that, IF the fight does come down to her life or Kal's, it WILL be Kal's; she has been doing everything she can to stop Kal WITHOUT killing him to that point, but she can and will do that if absolutely necessary.
And ... then what?
What will happen to Max with his "champion" (Superman) dead facing the woman he forced into killing her own friend?
Once the fight is back on Earth, the battle is Wonder Woman's to lose in the absolute papers, scissors, rocks, sense. She has the resources to take Superman out at any time after the ear clap.
Actually, she has the power to take him out once she's gotten the opening FOR the ear clap. That tiara toss could have been used in place of it, and not to wound, but to kill.
But ... is that greater power?
The ability to win that fight at any point from then on?
A lot of fans would define that as such.
I'm not so sure I would.
I think Superman is inherently physically suited to respond to a wider array of challenges than Wonder Woman, even to relatively mundane ones like stopping bank robbers.
That much has perhaps always been true.
For instance, with the bank robbers, Superman has vision that enables him to see them from a distance and note their hiding places and any weaponry they may have. Can Wonder Woman do this?
If they open fire, could either hero simply stand and act as a shield for innocents? Or would one require other equipment?
Yet would bank robbers prove a true challenge for either outside of hostages?
How much time would either need to simply "divine wind" their way through the bank at superspeed, disarm and/or knockout and/or capture the robbers, and blithely proceed about their day?
I am not sure exactly what you mean by "skyfather", though I think I have some idea. Beings that would be worshipped as gods or goddesses in ancient times? And, in Marvel history or parallel world history actually were? I'm guessing, for instance, that you would have Odin as a skyfather. I'm not sure you would have Thor as one, though the case can be made, as he is historically considered a "thunder god" and rain-bringer, besides being a Kryptonian level strongman. Conversely, I'm certain you would NOT apply the term to Storm of the X-men, regardless of how much weather she controls; she is not physically capable of operating on Superman level and above.
You got the "11" from Superman's quote in JLA/Avengers, right?
Here I would sharply disagree.
Were I to make such a list, it would be SOMEWHAT as follows:
11. Superboy Prime, circa 2005
10. Kingdom Come Superman
9. Wonder Woman
8. Captain Marvel/Superman
7. DC Hercules
Note that there would be a bunch of ".3", ".5" or other decimal differences between the two, not necessarily whole number differences.
And corrections have to be made for Character Induced Limitations, too, of course. For instance, Captain Marvel sometimes "shares" the power of Shazam with his friend Freddy and/or his sister Mary.
I seem to remember him nearly stalemating Superman in an armwrestling match but Supes finally getting him because he was using "split" power all along, not his full power. If so, this implies that Captain Marvel is actually stronger than Superman under solo conditions. Interestingly, this would seem to be borne out if you consider that, Kingdom Come Superman, for quite a while, part of mainstream canon, and far stronger than our own Superman, circa 2005-2011, was matched BY Captain Marvel. How did THAT happen if he is "really" only the match of 2005-2011 Superman?
At any rate, there are numerous cases like this where things simply do not make much sense if going by where DC fans traditionally like to place characters, but make almost perfect sense using a ranking like mine above.
Are you saying you believe Thor is actually a little stronger than Hulk at standard "starting" levels,
but that Hulk gradually gets stronger than Thor in any given encounter, owing to his "anger=strength" power?
Don't know what standard you're using for your Superman/Wonder Woman comparison, either.
Mine is more or less this, in regards to physical strength: Unifying just about EVERY thing I know about either character, their background, how their powers work, their character limitations, plot limitations, overall performance in relatively objective tests such as lifting known weights, competitions against each other and other mutual foes and powerful beings, origins, and basic concepts, Wonder Woman 2003-2011 would win an armwrestling match against Superman, and nearly any other contest that involved pure physical strength.
Note that one primary reason for the dates are that I did not start forming a significant DC reading catalogue until around 2004.
Most of my experience of either Superman or Wonder Woman is from those dates or thereabouts. Wonder Woman pre-2003 or so may very well be a far less impressive being than the one we've had the past decade.
I don't mean to derail this convo, which I think should stay here as this seems to be going beyond a simple "who'd win" type scenario, but what instances are you using to justify Wonder Woman (circa 2003-2011) beating Superman in an arm wrestling match or any other contest involving physical strength?
I mean, I've read Wonder Woman since George Perez took over all the way up to the beginning of the DCnU reboot and I'm really not sure where this line of thought is coming from at all and its entirely possibly I missed a pertinent post on your point.
Gender: Male Location: The Fortress of Solitude in Venus
Before I even continue in here, let me inform you that English is not my primary language and this might be the cause of you having a hard time trying to understand my grammar.
Having said that, I also work a lot so there is not really too much time and effort I can put on debating, but I do it because it is a hobby that I enjoy very much.
Lastly and very important.
I will like to bring the Rucca example of Sacrifice
Please do explain to me why the sun moved out of the way when Clark was about to kill Diana in what it seems a fight that will have lasted under 1:20 sec
This to me is proof enough that Superman can defeat Diana in less than two minutes even in a handicapped match where his mind is getting clouded with visions of things that had never happened and will contribute on Superman's part for his lack of performance at the end of the fight, where a clouded mind cannot even see the right proportions of the enemy He is facing.
Besides naming the fact that Superman is called ALPHA ONE and Wonder Woman is called ALPHA TWO.
As to physically strong ranking of the heroes in "normal" levels of strength?
Well I base this on fights of common opponents and "physical" universe feats.
You see "physical" universe feats are very useful, why?
Let me explain this to you.
Captain America is more likely to survive a punch or a blast from Thanos with out having to explain to much.
If you were to have Captain America to survive inside the crushing force of a black hole, you will need to explain How such a feat can be accomplished by Captain America.
This is of course a an extreme example but it has it's uses.
At some points "physical" universe feats cannot be used specially in villains who has less feats than heroes.
So I try to take a balance approach between "physical" universe, vs fights and the occasional bios with out falling into the no limits fallacy to which so many people tend to fall into. Hence the tern "Superman level strength" does not really mean = to Superman.
For Example see how John , Orion and Wonder Woman fared against Doomsday and compare it to Superman
See How John fared against Titus and compare it to Superman
See how John, Orion, Superman and Wonder Woman fared against Synnar and you kind of get a clear picture that Superman level of strength is not equal for all those beings.
The same way I see Hulk's strength as I believe Hulk is potentially physically stronger than Thor, not Physically more durable, but physically stronger.
George Perez is prior to the 2003-2011 period.
1986 or thereabouts, right?
Wonder Woman is a very different character under him, from what I can tell. From everything I can gather, Wonder Woman would have died were George Perez Sacrifice's author, and I'm not being facetious when I say that, either.
With people like Abhilegend denying major elements even of well-known events like Sacrifice, it's fairly obvious some "derailing" HAS to take place in this thread, in order for outside material to be shown and prove even the points that make up the argument.
That will take some time; and what I can show and when will depend on my schedule in the period to come.
Don't feel you're being ignored if it takes awhile, though; I plan to illustrate every pertinent point I've suggested as a matter of course.
I believe Sacrifice shows that Superman can defeat Diana in less than 2 minutes, too! Handicaps and all.
The only thing is, the same argument applies in reverse:
Sacrifice ALSO shows Diana can put down CLARK in less than 2 minutes, in under 2 SECONDS, in fact, IF "kill or be killed by delusional augmented Clark and me in my standard uniform" are the parameters.
For that is precisely what Diana SHOWS to Max Lord and DC readers with that final, glancing, tiara shot to Clark's throat.
Neither Superman nor Wonder Woman are invincible characters in regard to each other.
There are several levels on which this needs to be addressed.
I'll start with your first point, which is the implied argument:
"Artwork isn't a safe guide".
To an extent, you're right. Artwork isn't always a safe guide.
But when we're told by Diana what Clark's plan is
("he's going to take me to the sun and throw me in it!"
and then we're shown no less than SIX panels of these 2 struggling right at or in the sun's corona,
and then we're shown an element that would be disparate WITHOUT Clark being right at the sun (i.e. having strength enough to knock Diana from the sun back to Earth WHILE exposed to kryptonite, an element that has historically stopped him in his tracks),
AND, finally, told in an issue that chronologically follows this by the same author, in the immediate follow up storyline in the same series (Wonder Woman #221), and said character says after she has literally been bathed in MOLTEN METAL,
"I've experienced WORSE heat recently"
then there'd better be solid evidence for contradicting that before any reasonable person should believe Abhi's "Venus" argument.
And, no, time checks aren't enough in an era where writers took turns making Superman literally faster than light in one issue, and limited by it in another.
I'm short on time this morning. More on this particular point of yours later.
I'm aware of that, but as I've read Wonder Woman from Perez all the way up to JMS, so I'm drawing blanks on what instances you'd cite on WW beating Superman.
So pardon me if I don't believe Diana can finish a fight under 2 seconds with out some mayor CIS
I believe Diana will be able to block most HV attacks from Clark, Don't get me wrong, but she will be occupied blocking all those HV attacks, I'm not even accounting the fact that He can move, hit and use cold breath.
So is really hard to believe Diana will win in under 2 seconds.
Even as the Tiara was thrown, Superman's jugular started to heal and mind this are Magical artifacts and Diana is basically a magical Golem, if any Diana always have an advantage over Superman, which Superman always compensate with raw power. Hence Alpha one.
One must really wonder why Maxwell decided to take Superman as Alpha One instead of Diana.
Also it will be really helpful to explain Why you consider Superman's "amp" but seem to forget the great disadvantage one must be when what You see is this
I guess basically the fact that You believe your opponent is 8'10" but in reality is 6'3" in heels, will also count as having some aiming off, don't you think?
And We also know Doomsday is fast but Wonder Woman fast? When You realize Doomsday is moving faster than normal at those speeds is too late. Don't you agree?
Some mayor disadvantages on Superman's part, even with the so called amp which was canceled by the K exposure btw.
I Neither Superman nor Wonder Woman are invincible characters in regard to each other. [/B][/QUOTE]
Gender: Male Location: The Fortress of Solitude in Venus
??? the implied argument was not that artwork isn't always a safe guide, not at least in this instance.
The implied argument is that The Sun moved out of Diana's way and it was replaced by earth! As a huge bad writing or PIS to make the plot interesting because "We cannot kill Diana in under 1:20 seconds, she needs to save the day"
The argument was that Clark wanted to kill Doomsday by tossing him into the sun but right at the killing blow the sun moved out of the way and Doomsday went back to earth, why??? Doomsday will have a huge disadvantage in space, but the sun moves out of the way and Superman stupidly decides to send Doomsday back to earth.
If that is not mayor PIS I do not know what it is.
I'm not sure what your point here is, but We know she was at the Sun's corona and We know she was about to be inside the sun, until the sun dodged Diana.
I have not read it and I should go back and read it.
OK, So this fight was stated to last 1 minute and 54 seconds and at this time Superman and Diana are particularly more powerful than at their Byrne and Perez era, So they are actually moving really fast.
I'm short of time a lot too, but I'll keep checking around
Gender: Male Location: The Fortress of Solitude in Venus
I think I finally get what You are trying to show.
That Wonder Woman is somehow overshadow by Superman even though You feel she is more powerful than Clark and that she does not get the respect she should.
Well I think that is WHY there is respect threads, so you can educate people about your favorite character.
I know She is to be respected but that is ME.
If you want to educate people about Diana, You have to do it yourself or teach other people about Diana.
As I told you, there is this WW fan "fangirl101" who I believe was banned from here for socking. I believe she knows what she is talking about when it comes to WW but sadly forgets about context.
but You won't achieve your goal until you give your knowledge to someone else as easy as that.
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Apr 7th, 2012 08:04 AM
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