That being said, I'm ruling it illegal under the "Constructs/Summoning: No summoning and only constructs similar to a Green Lantern's are allowable" clause for this match, and thus Team Id/Kandy do not have Anti-Psi armor under their silver coating to begin the match.
I'd also like to point out my observation that, while I might be convinced of Id/Kandy's cloaking being undetectable to Team Galanidas in and of itself, they chose to overlap each other with shielding during their prep and for their assault. If it's Genis' shielding, that's photonic energy shields. If its Surfer, its Power Cosmic shielding, and if Onslaught, psionic energy in nature. Any three ways you cut it, that's energy which isn't going to be cloaked from Nate [1] and BRB/Thor [2]. Meaning Galanidas would in fact be able to follow you and/or absorb such shielding.
Regarding the strength of Genis' shielding and surviving 'galaxy destroying explosions', I'm skeptical to say the least. The evidence presented [1-4] flatly states that Genis had spatial apertures open at the time, so how much energy did Genis take as opposed to how much was released into the negative zone? Genis' shield has been busted by a Mjolnir throw from King Thor, afterall.
As for Onslaught's EMP at the outset of the match, the meaning of the acronym - electromagnetic pulse - should make it pretty clear that Mjolnir and/or Stormbreaker will be capable of absorbing it, especially since it has already absorbed Magneto's electromagnetics before [see below.] Even if they chose not to absorb it, the combination of psi-armor and shielding [1-3, MODT showing very impressive] would be enough to overcome it.
Which brings me to the Godblast argument and Mjolnir breaking. I don't think Galanidas ever argued that "the Exitar Godblast is the exact same one we are going to use on Onslaught!" Especially considering that they showed more than just that incident. Like his Godblast chasing off Galactus, and pushing back Juggernaut (they could've also went with his one-shotting the Dark Gods amalgam, but hey, no one's perfect.) That being said, it strains credulity to think the Godblast will break Mjolnir when they presented more than one example of the Godblast not breaking Mjolnir.
All of this is just a longwinded way of agreeing with Team Galanidas when they said that Onslaught dies at the virtual outset of the match. Id/Kandy's shields allow them to be tracked even if not visible, and they are probably in the process of being absorbed [1]. The Godblast does have enough power to kill Onslaught (at least for the purposes of this tournament under Batdude's rules), and thus Id/Kandy is down 2 players to Galanidas' 3 players.
As for the psi-hurricane and astral interference, I don't see anything illegal about it. I do question it's effectiveness, however. In Id/Kandy's astral interference scan [1] it specifically states that Nate overcame it 'with an ease that borders on frightening'. This was a weaker version than the Shaman Team Galanidas is using, and furthermore, Shaman is prepared and ready during this battle.
Additionally (and I admit somewhat sarcastically), I'm wondering even if Id/Kandy wins this, how much of a universe will be left to enjoy their victory [1]. I mean, they posted two separate versions of the way his power works: pre-Zemo tampering and post-Zemo tampering. Post-Zemo tampering is Photon, which is apparently who they are using. Given that his every breath was killing Eternity, I have to wonder what this battle would do given the excessive amount of power he'd be using and/or sharing.
Gender: Male Location: Drinking gasoline. Pissing napalm.
Enyalus' Evaluation on the Finals:Continued...
I know it seems like I've been completely against Id/Kandy during this analysis, but there were points in Galanidas' arguments that I'm not buying, either. Silver Surfer being drained through his skin, for example. While I am aware that it has happened before, against Rulk and Quasar most noticeably without assistance from tech, Id/Kandy defended themselves well with multiple instances where SS has fought it off, including the Enslavers incident [1]. That holds a lot of weight with me personally due to it being written by Silver Surfer's creator, Stan Lee. It doesn't get more canonical than that.
I also wasn't sold on Shaman being able to mindrape either SS or Genis, even without anti-psi armor as I've ruled here. The Power Cosmic gives SS phenomenal resistance to telepathic assault, as evidenced by him being the first one to shake off the Goddess's mental influence as well as besting Thanos on the astral plane, for example. And Genis is an omniversal telepath, afterall. What was posted to suggest Shaman could turn off Genis' power [1] doesn't take into account that Genis wasn't aware of Purple Man being his enemy/opponent nor that he [Purple Man] was even near the battlefield at that time, plus that Purple Man's abilities were being amplified by Baron Zemo with his moonstones. In the case of this conflict, of course, Photon knows who he is fighting.
I toss this in almost as an afterthought, but the illusions which Galanidas have Shaman project are also useless in my opinion, as Id/Kandy have shown [1-2]. And by his statement Genis has given regarding the definition of his Cosmic Awareness to Moondragon (posted somewhere in the mess, probably.)
This being said, Id/Kandy's offensive gameplan was very seriously lacking. Blasting was really one of the only viable things I read, and I am unconvinced Genis can attack behind his cloaking field. Even if he did, such an energy discharge could be tracked back to the source. Given that, I'd give the newly downsized Id/Kandy team of SS and Genis one free shot each before the cloaking tactic would be rendered useless. And one-shot isn't enough to drop either of the three. If they persisted in attacking via blasts, I see the following as a very real possibility:
Now, Id/Kandy brought up the fact that, as energy manipulators themselves, they could possibility drain BRB and Thor (citing two previous examples.) However, that's all they did. "Possibly." "Maybe." "If we choose." "What's stopping us from..." They never once put that forward as a viable tactic and expanded upon it. Which is disappointing, because who knows, it could have very well worked. Then they argued for using the Power Cosmic to snatch the hammers out of BRB and Thor's hands, but the scan they posted of a Loki-amped Surfer attempting to do that very same thing failed [1]. Ergo, I'm unconvinced of that route, by their own evidence.
One of the only other (viable) tactics they "suggested" was encasing the hammers in grade A adamantium. That is, to me, a violation of the construct/summoning clause, as I cited it at the beginning of my evaluation. I stress the word 'suggested' because that's what it seemed like Id/Kandy did for the most part. They suggested possible offenses, without actually arguing for them or stating that they would attempt them. And I have 'viable' in parenthesis because one of the 'possible' attacks suggested by Id/Kandy was mindrape by Genis...but when Galanidas' team is protected by the Watcher's favorite [1] that seems exceedingly unlikely.
Overall, Team Galanidas had a great defense and beautiful anticipation of Team Id/Kandy's tactics. They also kept their offense simple and effective as well as doing things that were well within their means to do. Id/Kandy was very inventive and, before the match started, I believe they had the more powerful characters. That being said, for all of their inventiveness and novelty, they showed a lack of imagination for the offensive side of the battle. Lacking Anti-Psi armor, having Onslaught taken out at the outset of the match, and using primarily energy blasts as the main offense against a team whose special is absorbing and redirecting that energy bodes incredibly unfortunate for Id/Kandy. Even with their speed advantage, the omnidirectional blasts of Thor and BRB and the fact that Mjolnir/Stormbreaker can draw those blasts to the hammers for absorption render it almost entirely ineffectual.
Based on the arguments set forth, the rules of the tourny, and to an extent, the powersets of the combatants involved even...My vote for winning Batdude's Tourney Final goes to Team Galanidas!
Both sides made some great points, but Leo and Galan, yours had me hooked more so than your opponents. Well done.
Due to work and a social engagement (wedding) that I'm about to head to in a about 20 minutes, my time is limited for the next week or so, so I'm going to have to make my judgment now, and very, very brief. I've been following this match since the onset and it was very well played. Though normally I'm a bit verbose, this is gonna be quick.
I have to give the win to id/Kandy. I felt they covered all bases very well and, given the unwitting blind Thor/Godblast kamikaze attack coupled with Nate being disabled out the gate (which I considered fair play on Onslaught's part), it put Leo and Galan in a hole I don't think they had the tools to pull themselves out of.
This being the Finals point allotments and the like are unnecessary, so, as stated above, and as much as it pains me to say because Leo is the real, real homie,
As I usually do, my judgement will first be a series of observations as I read through the thread, with no rhyme or reason to the order.
- My first thought is that I was curious what was to be done with two seemingly redundant power sets in BRB and Thor. But obviously I know better than to underestimate leo in tourneys, and he and Galan didn't disappoint. Genuine creativity points for A. Believably granting Bill full knowledge of hammer-use, and B. Giving Nate Thor's physical attributes. I didn't know that scan existed with Masterson, and that's saying something.
- Godblast, eh? While you could have thrown yourselves a bone by cropping the scan to where it didn't shown Mjolnir being broken, leo and Galan seemed to leave themselves open to that possibility. Still, even at the cost of Mjolnir, a Godblast is a Godblast. It might be an even trade in terms of fight usefulness. There's also the GB scan where it doesn't break and he isn't physically drained, so I'll throw those two outcomes into quantum superposition temporarily until I decide which I think is more likely.
- I remain convinced that Onslaught's psi is better than Nate's, and the trap for Nate is a clever one. Galanidas threw the whole astral pwnage thing into some question, but it doesn't change my estimation of psi skill in this fight. The Godblast is being unleashed as soon as the battle starts however, and I believe it would provide sufficient distraction to place the various psi-strats for both teams on the backburner. Nate wouldn't be psi-pwned in fractions of a second. A longer battle favors Onslaught, however, provided both are still standing after some time.
- No less than 4 separate instances posted means I'm going to believe Surfer can be drained. The infinite-source anti-drainage Photon scan, however, makes me believe he'd be immune to such tactics. The Mrrungo-Mu scan where he can't drain Surfer is a fun rebuttal, but a panel after saying the silver coating blocks him, he cracks the silver coating with a single energy blast. Weird showing for Surfer. I'll grant that a skin-coating block is possible, but even in the Mu scan they seemed to leave the possibility not too hard to attain.
- I let Kandy break the GB hammer-break tie. He posted a 3rd instance of it where it doesn't break. Sorry bud. A fluky showing that's outweighed by a larger body of contradicting evidence isn't enough for me to pull the trigger on such an assumption.
- Kandy backed the Surfer-can't-be-drained argument with a few more scans. One involves a far-different soul suck and another is just an attack from Mephisto, not an energy drain. There's the Mu incident and one involving Rogue that seem credible to the point. He can resist some drains but not all, is the conclusion I came to. Because when you have multiple scans on either side, neither side can simply be thrown out (as, of course, both teams wanted to do). The draining scans that I can count as credible outnumber the non-draining scans though, and the hammers are basically comics' Alpha Male of absorption.
- Id finally brought some offense to the forefront. I haven't seen a bad scan for Genis yet.
- Galan's "our characters know the limitations of the hammers" was enough for me to shunt aside the idea that the hammer would break. Yeah, it broke during the Exitar thing, but there's more than 1 refuting scan as well as the general battle awareness that Thor would undoubtedly have about mjolnir's limits and his own life-binding to the hammer.
- What was the controversy about, the psi-blockers in the current Dark X-Men series? If that's it, I'm not sure what the fuss was about. In any case, I believed from the start that Kandy/Id's team was psi-blocked sufficiently against Nate, even before those scans. I always figured Nate's primary function was some basic defenses against Kandy/Id's superior psi, and the psi-armor to amp the Hammer Bros.
- Lots of "Point A" "Well point B" "Well sure, but Point A" "Which is refuted by Point B".....you guys ran out of things to say after a little while. The Leo/Kandy back and forth became particularly tiresome. Make a point, establish that you believe what you do and why, then ignore the same point being made again. Not a match comment, just a debating one. I lol'd once or twice though.
- Surfer beat Bill, yes. Both teams are amped though. I can't glean much from that fight.
- Surfer sharing some of his power cosmic means that he himself is slightly under-powered. There's only 100% of his power to go around. Other amps were in place, yes, but the Surfer feats/rebuttals had to take that into consideration.
- Illusions, as they have ALWAYS been, are useless. Thanks for the lulz though.
....
I think Surfer can be drained, I think Thor and Mjolnir will survive the Godblast. I think the EMP will be absorbed. I think Kandy/Id didn't have enough offense. I don't know what to make of Photon, who had the best defenses of anyone here, but I'd have to believe he's far beyond the tourney limit to overcome his team's shortcomings. I was honestly somewhat rooting for the underdogs here....leo's got enough titles. But I have to be fair, and Galan and leo cleaned this one up. Good job both sides, and excellent creativity with making great use of what essentially became 2 Thors.
Team ID/KK Prep:
I believed most of their prep. Mind links, memory tranfers, power sharing, EMP, PSI hurricane, PSI shunt, anti PSI shields, forcefields, recharging, refueling, etc.
Team Leo/Galan Prep:
I believed most of their prep. Mind links, memory transfers, PSI armor, Nate's boost, GB charging, shieldingreadied power draining, shield draining, hammer tracking, illusions, etc.
The battle:
To me, this match was mostly won/lost in the prep.
The illusions were almost a moot point for me. Didn't really see them playing much more than a mild distraction.
Mjolnir won't break.
Onslaught>>>Nate, imo.
I thought any speed advantage was there for Team ID/KK .
I was a bit skeptical on the whole cloaking while scouting and sniping.
I also wasn't totally convinced of Team Leo/Galan mind raping SS & Photon, at least with Onslaught around.
Onslaught gets GBed at the get go. That would take away from the PSI hurricane, which I believe Team Leo/Galan could handle.
A weakened/KOed Onslaight leaves Photon & SS much more vulnerable than Thor, BRB & Nate.
Spatial apertures, "in one door, out the other" seems teetering on self BFR.
I also believe that Photon and SS would be open to power draining attacks.
These comments were clinchers for me:
I believe team Leo/Galan was prepared for what Team ID/KK and countered almost everything in the prep round. Team ID/KK fought hard but never were able to counter team Leo/Galan's prep.
Onslaught get stunned/KOed via GB. That takes away the PSI hurricane and leaves Photon & SS open for Nate's PSI attacks. While I don't think it would be a mind raping, it sure would be enough of a distraction to open up other attacks from Thor & BRB.
With Onslaught incapacitated, Thor & BRB can focus on finding the PSI distracted Photon & SS.
Photon & SS eventually fall due to simultaneous PSI attacks, power draining and offensive attacks.
Congrats to both sides. Kandy, Id, I can relate to 1-vote losses better than most. Even though I was part of the reason you lost, you guys did great, and congrats on making it this far. Kandy in particular, whose tourney skill and success has steadily improved.
Leo, you didn't need another tourney win ( ) but you earned it as always. Galan, was this your debut? Either way, good job.
Then as of right now you're 1 of 3 people in tourney history to be completely undefeated. The other two (TheKahn and Jinzin) won the only tourney they ever entered.
Gender: Male Location: Drinking gasoline. Pissing napalm.
That's pretty surprising to me, since I consider you and ODG the two best debaters in the vs. currently. And certainly near the top in comics knowledge.
KMC Community Forums
Feb 27th, 2010 07:16 AM
Official pimp of Steverules 
) but you earned it as always. Galan, was this your debut? Either way, good job.
