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In the grand scheme of things, how important is speed and reflexes?
You do not have permission to vote on this poll.
Not at all important 1 3.85%
Not very important 1 3.85%
A little important 1 3.85%
Important 3 11.54%
Quite important 7 26.92%
Very important 9 34.62%
The most important asset available 4 15.38%
Total: 26 votes 100%
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How important are speed and reflexes
Started by: JakeTheBank

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JakeTheBank
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Starscream M
name one herald level character who WOULD be speedblitzed by superman


erm

What the hell would that prove? That the speedblitz is the beginning and end of forum fights?

Mongul for one.


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Old Post Feb 24th, 2010 06:26 AM
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Starscream M
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by kgkg
Ok lets say you are correct. This would mean that Thor should lose to all the Superman like characters who have say faster than speed of sound reflex which is hardly the case.

Which is what I said very relevant that many factors are simply ignored or dumbed down in comics.
many on KMC would say hulk should lose to majority of flying herald characters, but he doesn't in comics.

so does the fact that hulk does so well against much more mobile heralds in comics mean he would have the same success on KMC?


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Old Post Feb 24th, 2010 06:26 AM
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Starscream M
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
erm

What the hell would that prove? That the speedblitz is the beginning and end of forum fights?

Mongul for one.
no, my point was that I think you believe speed to be a very small factor, irregardless of the characters being discussed.

and the fact is, Mongul prob has just as many if not more speed feats than thor when you account for their respective number of comic book appearances...so the fact that you think he can be speedblitzed but thor cannot would seem inconsistent.


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Old Post Feb 24th, 2010 06:29 AM
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JakeTheBank
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Starscream M
no, my point was that I think you believe speed to be a very small factor, irregardless of the characters being discussed.

and the fact is, Mongul prob has just as many if not more speed feats than thor when you account for their respective number of comic book appearances...so the fact that you think he can be speedblitzed but thor cannot would seem inconsistent.


Your point is wrong as I said it depends on the characters being used, something you even quoted me saying.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
It depends on who and who, obviously. erm


And the fact is, Mongul already got his ass kicked by Superman, and a Superman using his speed. And what are these great speed feats of Mongul? Enlighten me.

Having speed, even great speed, doesn't translate into a auto-win or even a huge advantage when the other character has a variety of powers/skills/abilities to use to counter or negate said advantage.

Or do you not understand that?


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Old Post Feb 24th, 2010 06:34 AM
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Starscream M
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Your point is wrong as I said it depends on the characters being used, something you even quoted me saying.



And the fact is, Mongul already got his ass kicked by Superman, and a Superman using his speed. And what are these great speed feats of Mongul? Enlighten me.

Having speed, even great speed, doesn't translate into a auto-win or even a huge advantage when the other character has a variety of powers/skills/abilities to use to counter or negate said advantage.

Or do you not understand that?
what use is abilities if you don't have speed?

anyways, we're going to have to agree to differ on this.


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Old Post Feb 24th, 2010 06:37 AM
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Placidity
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank

Having speed, even great speed, doesn't translate into a auto-win or even a huge advantage when the other character has a variety of powers/skills/abilities to use to counter or negate said advantage.

Or do you not understand that?


No one said it was auto-win, rather he was trying to make an argument that speed has a greater significance then people want to admit.

In regards to Superman vs Thor, what powers does Thor have that will allow him to nullify the speedblitz when the fight starts? On KMC, standard starting distance apart is 500m, which is like virtually nothing for someone with Superman's speed. How will he counter the Combo-to-KO?


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Old Post Feb 24th, 2010 06:39 AM
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JakeTheBank
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Placidity
No one said it was auto-win, rather he was trying to make an argument that speed has a greater significance then people want to admit.

In regards to Superman vs Thor, what powers does Thor have that will allow him to nullify the speedblitz when the fight starts? On KMC, standard starting distance apart is 500m, which is like virtually nothing for someone with Superman's speed. How will he counter the Combo-to-KO?


This scenario requires Superman speedblitz's Thor at the beginning of the match at maximum speed and assumes that Thor won't be able to defend himself against someone in his weight class striking him multiple times to do anything noteworthy, which in essence, ignores his feats and showings - old or not. It also ignores the fact that his durability is up to par to guarentee he doesn't all of sudden get "stunned" to the point he can't do anything to defend himself mid-barrage including using Mjolnir in a defensive arc, his powers, etc.

In short, it assumes too many variables to ensure that it's a unbeatable strategy for Superman to rely on.

The fact that you are, in a way, humoring the combo-to-ko is sad.


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Old Post Feb 24th, 2010 06:47 AM
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Placidity
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank

The fact that you are, in a way, humoring the combo-to-ko is sad.


I've already posted my thoughts on the Combo-to-KO theory a few posts back which you may or may not have read.

If you feel there is something wrong with the analysis, please respond to that directly.


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Old Post Feb 24th, 2010 07:02 AM
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JakeTheBank
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Placidity
I've already posted my thoughts on the Combo-to-KO theory a few posts back which you may or may not have read.

If you feel there is something wrong with the analysis, please respond to that directly.


The thing that's wrong with Combo-to-KO, besides the fact that the person who coined the term is viewed as a joke by most posters is the following.

You're basically assuming several specific things in order for this to pan out successfully.

1.) The "combo-er" possesses sufficient speed to completely overwhelm the "combo-ee".
2.) The combo-er immeadiately uses full speed and power from the onset of the match dashing toward the combo-ee, who has next to no relevant speed showings or reflex showings to warrant he can defend from the upcoming onslaught.
3.) Once the first strike connects, it causes a massive stun effect which not only makes the target too stunned to react/adequately defend themselves, but leaves them open to subsequent attacks.
4.) The process is repeated numerous times.
5.) The "combo-to-ko" is even in character enough for the person using it to validate it as a strategy likely enough to happen for a majority, thereby giving the person intiating it the majority.

It's a faulty line of reasoning simply because it hinges too much on (in this case) Superman using this method of attack - which, if he's in character - I have yet to see him do a majority of times against a target while at the same time lowballing Thor's defenses and showings of speed and reflexes to ensure Superman does hit first, and continuously strikes Thor, who is far too slow and staggered to defend himself.

It's a farce.


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Old Post Feb 24th, 2010 07:11 AM
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Placidity
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank

You're basically assuming several specific things in order for this to pan out successfully.


I did say its a case by case basis did I not?

Here you do make a good list of requirements for Combo-to-KO to work, good job.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank

1.) The "combo-er" possesses sufficient speed to completely overwhelm the "combo-ee".


Agree. IMO, Superman is sufficiently faster than Thor to carry out the Combo-to-KO. You may disagree and say Thor is fast enough for Superman, but that does not discredit the Combo-to-KO theory in anyway.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank

2.) The combo-er immeadiately uses full speed and power from the onset of the match dashing toward the combo-ee, who has next to no relevant speed showings or reflex showings to warrant he can defend from the upcoming onslaught.


Combo-er using full speed is a given in MY VIEW of KMC fights. I'm sick of characters holding back and not using one of their main attributes for NO REASON. Only reason anyone who has that level of immense speed and NOT use it is quite frankly really stupid. How you interpret that is up to you.

As for the second part of the statement, Starscream has sufficiently covered his view on that, and I agree with it.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank

3.) Once the first strike connects, it causes a massive stun effect which not only makes the target too stunned to react/adequately defend themselves, but leaves them open to subsequent attacks.


Correct. Why would you assume otherwise if the two characters are of comparable strength and durability unless the character receiving the blitz had other relevant powers to aid his situation?

Lets go with Superman vs Thor again. Superman launches a barrage of attacks on Thor. Now Superman is not as fast as Flash, but even punching at half Flash's speed would quickly knock anyone out. Now lets go with your assumption - that Thor can withstand the blows and quickly hits Superman back. How does that help Thor if you use this kind of logic? By your logic, Superman would recover just as quickly and continue his speed pummeling of Thor. In the end its Superman punching Thor many times while Thor manages to hit him back a few times.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank

4.) The process is repeated numerous times.


No different to your point above, neither is my response.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank

5.) The "combo-to-ko" is even in character enough for the person using it to validate it as a strategy likely enough to happen for a majority, thereby giving the person intiating it the majority.


Combo-to-KO is as likely as a speed blitz. Some people argue Superman doesn't really speed blitz a lot. I say its due to PIS. If you have the speed to punch someone hundreds or thousands of times a second why would you not and instead use human speed punches?

I call PIS, you can disagree, thats fine.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank

It's a faulty line of reasoning simply because it hinges too much on (in this case) Superman using this method of attack - which, if he's in character - I have yet to see him do a majority of times against a target while at the same time lowballing Thor's defenses and showings of speed and reflexes to ensure Superman does hit first, and continuously strikes Thor, who is far too slow and staggered to defend himself.


Okay I get it - for the Combo-to-KO theory to apply, it needs to meet some requirements. How does that invalidate the theory at all? It doesn't.
You may disagree that it might not work in Superman vs Thor specifically because you think Superman isn't fast enough, but the theory could be in play in many other matchups.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank

It's a farce.


Nope. What you are disagreeing with are the the requirements don't match regarding Superman vs Thor, not that the actually theory is not sound.


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Last edited by Placidity on Feb 24th, 2010 at 07:37 AM

Old Post Feb 24th, 2010 07:35 AM
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Mshinu
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I voted quite important. How effective combat super speed is seem to vary more than say strength or skill. It is a big factor but less so in comics than it would be in the real world. Many are who are slower are able to deal with it trough skill, hand speed, enhanced senses or combination thereof.


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JakeTheBank
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Placidity
I did say its a case by case basis did I not?

Here you do make a good list of requirements for Combo-to-KO to work, good job.




Agree. IMO, Superman is sufficiently faster than Thor to carry out the Combo-to-KO. You may disagree and say Thor is fast enough for Superman, but that does not discredit the Combo-to-KO theory in anyway.



Combo-er using full speed is a given in MY VIEW of KMC fights. I'm sick of characters holding back and not using one of their main attributes for NO REASON. Only reason anyone who has that level of immense speed and NOT use it is quite frankly really stupid. How you interpret that is up to you.

As for the second part of the statement, Starscream has sufficiently covered his view on that, and I agree with it.



Correct. Why would you assume otherwise if the two characters are of comparable strength and durability unless the character receiving the blitz had other relevant powers to aid his situation?

Lets go with Superman vs Thor again. Superman launches a barrage of attacks on Thor. Now Superman is not as far as Flash, but even punching at half Flash's speed would quickly knock anyone out. Now lets go with your assumption - that Thor can withstand the blows and quickly hits Superman back. How does that help Thor if you use this kind of logic? By your logic, Superman would recover just as quickly and continue his speed pummeling of Thor. In the end its Superman punching Thor many times while Thor manages to hit him back a few times.




No different to your point above, neither is my response.



Combo-to-KO is as likely as a speed blitz. Some people argue Superman doesn't really speed blitz a lot. I say its due to PIS. If you have the speed to punch someone hundreds or thousands of times a second why would you not and instead use human speed punches?

I call PIS, you can disagree, thats fine.



Okay I get it - for the Combo-to-KO theory to apply, it needs to meet some requirements. How does that invalidate the theory at all? It doesn't.
You may disagree that it might not work in Superman vs Thor specifically because you think Superman isn't fast enough, but the theory could be in play in many other matchups.



Nope. What you are disagreeing with are the the requirements don't match regarding Superman vs Thor, not that the actually theory is not sound.


I guess the main thing we're disagreeing on is the fact that Superman and his usage of speed being PIS or CIS. Personally, I see as it CIS. He has the tools to do them, but he just doesn't. Nothing plot influenced about it because he has done it before, just not often enough to claim "Hey, he does that every match". Same principal with the Godblast. Thor could, in theory, unleash a Godblast whenever he feels like it. Problem is, he doesn't feel like it all the time. Whether you like it or not and whether I like it or not, characters fight in character. A lot of posters essentially debate powersets against each other, instead of the character using them. And a good amount attribute seldom used powers or techniques as a surefire advantage or reasoning for winning a match.

So, yeah, in a nutshell in order for combo-to-ko to work, you basically have to assume a lot for it to be viable for Character A against Character B. In the case of Thor versus Superman, you essentially have to have Superman use something he seldom does (ie. out of character), ignore Thor's relevant speed/reflex showings (which you really can't dispute as ODG did a good job of cataloging a large number and variety of them) and assume that Thor, once stunned, can't find it within himself to react/do anything while stunned.

Can combo-to-ko work? Sure, it can, but in this specific example of Thor and Superman, it's not a feasible method of winning for Superman.


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Old Post Feb 24th, 2010 07:45 AM
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rotiart
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Superman v hulk? Supes speed is way too high
Thor v superman... That's arguable...

Do we have scans of superman punching ftl? Or are they just... A lit of punches with no measurable quantity?

And lemme throw in an argument some will find arguable irrelevant... But ares is up Thor with Thor.. And ares showed that he had normal reaction times even in "planck time"...


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Old Post Feb 24th, 2010 07:53 AM
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Placidity
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I guess the main thing we're disagreeing on is the fact that Superman and his usage of speed being PIS or CIS. Personally, I see as it CIS. He has the tools to do them, but he just doesn't. Nothing plot influenced about it because he has done it before, just not often enough to claim "Hey, he does that every match". Same principal with the Godblast. Thor could, in theory, unleash a Godblast whenever he feels like it. Problem is, he doesn't feel like it all the time. Whether you like it or not and whether I like it or not, characters fight in character.


Good observation. I like it since it really narrows down the debate to the crucial points, otherwise it kinda gets messy.

However, once you've simplified it down to this, there really isn't room for debate, just a "agree to disagree" situation which isn't all bad, but I like debating lol.

There is something that bugs me about your reasoning though. You said Thor doesn't use his Godblast most of the time because he doesn't "feel" like it. When you put it that way, I would say you are actually saying its more PIS than CIS... because neither Superman nor Thor is stupid. The real question is, why would he not use it if he wanted to win a fight, most of the time with great stakes on the line and he KNOWS that if uses it, he would almost certainly win the fight?


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Old Post Feb 24th, 2010 07:55 AM
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JakeTheBank
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Placidity
Good observation. I like it since it really narrows down the debate to the crucial points, otherwise it kinda gets messy.

However, once you've simplified it down to this, there really isn't room for debate, just a "agree to disagree" situation which isn't all bad, but I like debating lol.

There is something that bugs me about your reasoning though. You said Thor doesn't use his Godblast most of the time because he doesn't "feel" like it. When you put it that way, I would say you are actually saying its more PIS than CIS... because neither Superman nor Thor is stupid. The real question is, why would he not use it if he wanted to win a fight, most of the time with great stakes on the line and he KNOWS that if uses it, he would almost certainly win the fight?


Yeah, I can understand where you are coming from, certainly, and are using reasonable methods to back up your claims, which I respect.

As far as the not "feeling" like it, I admit it was probably a bad choice of words on my part. The main reason why Thor doesn't use the Godblast often is because it takes a moment or two to be released (something that he really can't afford to do against some opponents, especially at the very beginning of the fight) and the fact it takes significant energy from him to do so. IMO, it's far better to save the Godblast for a situation when things are most dire and everything else has failed; why bust our your most powerful attack at the expense of stamina and vigor when you could use much less energy and exertion just beating the crap out of something with your bare hands. It's essentially a judgment call for him.


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Old Post Feb 24th, 2010 08:01 AM
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Placidity
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by rotiart
Superman v hulk? Supes speed is way too high
Thor v superman... That's arguable...


Okay, this brings up another argument I've been trying to get out recently. Not quite on-topic, but anyway...

If Thor can react to Superman's immense speed in a reasonable manner, why did he struggle with Hulk H2H?

My answer is PIS against Thor. My intention is to show that Hulk beating Thor in any form is the biggest PIS feat ever, and that people should not use his fights to hype up Hulk. Truth is, Hulk is tiers below the likes of Thor not only in Speed, but Strength and Durability. Thats right folks, I'm here to crush any delusions surrounding Hulk.


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JakeTheBank
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Placidity
Okay, this brings up another argument I've been trying to get out recently. Not quite on-topic, but anyway...

If Thor can react to Superman's immense speed in a reasonable manner, why did he struggle with Hulk H2H?

My answer is PIS against Thor. My intention is to show that Hulk beating Thor in any form is the biggest PIS feat ever, and that people should not use his fights to hype up Hulk. Truth is, Hulk is tiers below the likes of Thor not only in Speed, but Strength and Durability. Thats right folks, I'm here to crush any delusions surrounding Hulk.


Honestly, and it's not a very popular view point, but Thor's showings against Hulk are pretty much written to be in favor of Hulk as much as possible. Thor has the tools, powers, and abilities to drop Hulk pretty much whenever he wants to, only...he doesn't. I think it's because Hulk somehow affects Thor's pride to want to fight him on as even terms as possible and come out the victor so he can, without a doubt, be dubbed Hulk's superior. I guess that's as much PIS as it is CIS, because generally speaking, whenever Thor fights Hulk, all of sudden he insists on brawling with a creature whose main advantage is brawling and back and forth slugfests.

I personally don't cite Thor's vs. battles with Hulk as a method for winning against people like Superman aside from the fact that Hulk amps like crazy while he gets mad - as it's his core powerset - and Thor's base strength is able to match Hulk while still fighting down to his level.

You could say Hulk makes pretty much everybody that fights him job out to him (WWH is clear evidence of that and I think Hulk even says to Trauma, who took the shape of Juggernaut, "Didn't I job you out last week?") or that Marvel desperately wants their strong brick dude to look good against anyone who fights him. Personally, given Thor's high end and repeated feats, provided he actually fights Hulk outside of Hulk's terms, he'd beat him pretty much every single time.

Again, it's not a popular view (as I'm sure some Hulk fan will call me out on it or something), but it's definetly something to think about.


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Old Post Feb 24th, 2010 08:13 AM
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Juk3n
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Re: How important are speed and reflexes

quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Just how much does speed and reflexes effect a match up when compared to things such as power, strength, durability, intellect, versatility, etc?


Batman would be dead without them, that makes them pretty frickin' important dontcherthink?


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Old Post Feb 24th, 2010 08:28 AM
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janus77
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depends on the level of disparity. if it's Spiderman vs Juggernaut or say Nova (w/Worldmind) vs Hulk, then I'd say pretty important, because it would guarantee a low hit-connection rate for Juggernaut and Hulk respectively.

but if its characters broadly within the same class, then it can become marginal, say between Flash and Surfer, and other factors trump (durability, power, blast range and radius ... etc).

I think the classifying of characters in speed/reflex terms is vital though. for instance, Nova seems to be an FTL character but, when he came up against Surfer, he literally could not see Surfer at all, because Surfer is so many orders faster. yet Juggernaut will never have that problem with Spiderman or The Hulk, he'll be able to see them both, just not able to react to them at such a speed as to put them on the defensive.

so ... complicated question yes


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Old Post Feb 24th, 2010 11:17 AM
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Starscream M
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Thor could, in theory, unleash a Godblast whenever he feels like it.
thor's godblast is useless in fights against mobile fighters...he has to charge it and aim it....virtually anyone with any speed would avoid it


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