^ Right. The Abraxas arc comics contradict the bio while the Cosmos in Collision arc comics don't contradict the bio. Yet, you've got it reversed, relying on the Abraxas bio and rejecting the Maelstrom bio. You're backwards. No, you're ignoring the bio and we saw on-panel that A.Maelstrom completely no-sold IG-Thanos' blast and operated outside his prescience.
And we saw Multi-Eternity in the actual comic, along with all the alternate universes melding together, and Reed nullifying him. That supports my case. Not some bio, most of which you reject, except here. Good job, hypocrite.
^ Bio states you are wrong. A.Maelstrom > IG-Thanos. Thanos has no matter manipulation. THOTU absorbed a universe. If you can accept all of that, I won't accuse you of being a hypocrite who subsists purely on classless denial and self-serving nonsense.
K, troll. Guess you can't read where A.Maelstrom compares the Infinity Gems to the Quantum Bands. Good job even refusing to read the scan. And how humorous that anything that's on-panel that goes against your desires says something different and how only certain bios are wrong.
And you think you have an argument? Cogent arguments with well-reasoned points don't foster changing your position three times over. This quanchiwaffle is forever your's. The only poster here I know that switched his position the the same exact issue, looking at the same exact evidence, simply because he couldn't control his butt-hurt. You are simply unmatched.
Largely because thats irrelevant to this debate. The answer to that question doesn't hold nearly as much significance as you seem to think it does.
Why this particular alteration of reality tore a dimensional wall resulting in the Chaos Wave and others haven't isn't answered on panel. We can only speculate given what we are told on panel, i.e Wanda's mental state and lack of experience resulted in a botched job.
Regardless of why the wall was torn, the fact remains that:
The Chaos Wave is said to be an after effect of Wanda's work
The Chaos Wave wasn't maintained or directed by Wanda, it leaked
through to Otherworld specifically because the Excalibur Lighthouse is a weakpoint in the dimensional brane as it is itself a doorway to Otherworld
The reason so much damage was caused was because Otherworld is connected to all realities, it is a multiversal intersection, a keystone, so when it was struck many other realities were affected.
The wave conclusively did NOT out of sheer might simultaneously reach out and directly collapse all of those realities itself.
Meggan of Excalibur a sub herald character single handedly stopped the wave by absorbing other dimensional energies and throwing them at the wave. A feat given her showings both before and after the event further support the idea that the wave in itself was not a big threat if confronted, however it caused havoc when left unchecked.
Thanos ftw.
__________________
Last edited by GalacticStorm on Aug 20th, 2010 at 11:56 PM
ANswer you're desperately trying to avoid: It was torn through and supremely messed up because Wanda's power is just that powerful. You're only trying to diminish Wanda's feat by deflecting. There's a reason Wanda's power did all that. And it wasn't mere coincidence. There have been dozens upon dozens of times where the 616 universe's reality/time is shifted and remade. None of them had these consequences following directly upon it of this magnitude. Associating the ability to claim the pans-dimensional power of the Beyond with the term, "sub-herald," was (and still is) a transparent ploy and does nothing to support your blanket assertions. What Meggan did was monumental. The Omniversal Guardian, Roma, couldn't do this. Dr. Strange couldn't do this with his artifacts. Photon Genis-Vell couldn't even do this. And using her as a proxy by which to diminish HOM Wanda's own power is folly.
Thats supposition i'm afraid. Pure opinion. The reason the barrier was eroded could just as easily be because as shown on panel Wanda wasn't in control of her power hence her need for Professor Xavier to co-ordinate her abilities and Pietro for emotional support. Equally a valid explanation. However we have no conclusive answer we are not given one so instead of clinging on to a point you can only speculate to because your whole argument on this topic has been decimated, just be a mature debater and concede until such times when future publications can bolster your assertions.
I'm not diminishing anything i'm afraid. It is what it is on panel as i have clearly highlighted to you in this thread. As stated the Chaos Wave was catalyzed by Wanda's reality warp, so any and all it did is not a feat of Wanda's. So by highlighting that point i'm not diminishing her feat, especially one that did not not belong to her in the first place. Accept your misinterpretation and move on.
No what Meggan did was not monumental. That is your supposition. Based on all she has done before the incident and after the incident she is not a great power in the scheme of things.
What you're doing is using your misinterpretation of the Chaos Wave and instead of looking at Meggans showings throughout continuity to correctly evaluate what she did, you're boosting her up to be some cosmic level character to coincide with your misguided perspective even though this cosmic Meggan has not been seen in continuity before or ever since. Irrational. Be objective please
To highlight the things you were quite incorrect about-
Wandas directly created and controlled the Chaos Wave(shown to be merely catalyzed by Wandas warping of 616)
Wanda must have controlled the Wave because why would it have gone directly to Otherworld of all places( the weakpoint that Wandas House of M warp eroded was located at the base of Excaliburs lighthouse, a doorway to Otherworld)
The Chaos Wave reached out and simultaneously collapsed the realities of the multiverse( a misinterpretation caused by superficial reading of the issue. What is stated is that Otherworld is an intersection whereby all realities are connected so by colliding with this keystone, the wave caused a domino effect, it compromised the structural integrity of the multiversal structure causing some not all realities to collapse.)
I'm sure there was more but right now i cant be bothered to go back through this thread because i'm quite bored of it to be honest.
Everything i have said is supported on panel and your misinterpretations are clear. Instead of clinging on to an irrelevant point for dear life as a means of deflecting attention away from all you stand correct on, just bow out with dignity.
I never argued that Wanda could control her power. It's her lack of control that makes her such a dangerous force, or in this thread, such a dangerous foe. In the future, when your arguments are defused by a simple question that you've avoided for dozens of pages, try and rethink your opinions before proceeding with discussion. Deflection again from the fact that no Omniversal Chaos Wave has ever resulted from simple reality manipulation of the 616 reality. You're not highlighting anything. You're just heaping statements on top of the simple truth. Wanda's power was responsible, because everything happened after Wanda applied her power. That is basically the theme of the entire climax to Uncanny X-Men #645. Just because you want to avoid her claiming the pan-dimensional powers of the Beyond and holding back the tide that neither the Omniversal Guardian, Roma, nor Dr. Strange with prep, nor Photon Genis-Vell could accomplish is your problem, not mine. Continuity? You mean where she was thought to be nothing more than a shapeshifter? Read comics please.
To highlight the things you are straw-manning me over-
I never said Wanda controlled the Chaos Wave. The Chaos Wave is a result of her power being applied. Because nothing on the magnitude of the Omniversal CHaos Wave has ever happened when warping 616.
Again, never said Wanda controlled the Wave. Good job deflecting... wait... you didn't get that past me... so never mind. Poor job deflecting. There's a reason the Chaos Wave reached Otherworld. Again... because dozens and dozens of 616 reality warps have not reached Otherworld in the past. The reason is: Wanda's reality warp is that different and that powerful.
You mean you can't find other statements to straw-man or deflect from? K. Trying to disassociate the omniversal upheaval caused by Wanda's power is ultimately pointless. Nothing has ever caused that omniversal upheaval in that way before. Nothing suggests that omniversal upheaval wouldn't happen again if she decided to let loose again uncontrollably. And your desire to reduce HOM Wanda below Phoenix is transparent. And attacking Meggan is just a by-product of that nonsense. What is it? Did you just hate how pitably involved Rachel was during that entire episode? Get over it.
I've already answered your quite irrelevant question ODG.
Your question does not have an answer on panel, therefore it is an exercise in supposition which unfortunately for you has no place here.
You can question why the wall was eroded until your blue in the face but that doesnt change the nature of the Chaos Wave something we're actually told on panel. It doesnt change how remarkably inferior the Chaso Wave is shown to be from your exaggerations and misinterpretation.
Once again, just to clarify, why the Chaos Wave managed to tear through the wall we are not told and have no definitive answer to so we can only guess.
What you can NOT do is assert as the gospel truth that it is just because she is that powerful when the answer could just as easily be because she had no control over her power. Your question with regards to why it tore through the wall has received a satisfactory response. Dont ask it again please. Acknowledge the weaknesses in your argument that i have brought to light and step to the side.
As for why Roma couldnt or didnt do anything, you could ask the same question about LT and all the cosmics during the many occasions that the heroes have saved reality without them getting involved.
Done and dusted.
__________________
Last edited by GalacticStorm on Aug 21st, 2010 at 08:50 PM
The answer is friggin obvious. All that omniversal upheaval was a result of the distinction between Wanda's reality warp and every other generic reality warp that has occurred in the entirety of Marvel history. The distinction being, her power just works that way when it's uncontrolled or it's just that damn powerful. I'm not questioning. I'm asking you a leading question to get you to recognize the answer. It's far better than trying to disassociate the feat from Wanda's power entirely. Which is just quite literally ass-backwards when you consider that she started the whole mess.
No. You could literally look at the narration stating outright that Roma couldn't do squat. Her impotence had nothing to do with her simply being ambivalent and not caring. She tried her best. She failed utterly. Because she didn't have the power:
(please log in to view the image)
And Meggan did succeed when she channeled the pan-dimensional energies of the Beyond. Keep deflecting. Indeed. Apt summary.
I thought better of you. Instead of acknowledging that the points you have been arguing throughout have been countered quite conclusively, not a statement with regards to them has been uttered. Instead you cling on to another wholly irrelevant question that we are never given an answer to on panel and you push that forward to me like the whole debate centers on it. Laughable last resort.
We base our arguments here on what facts we are given on panel, if we are not told why the reality warp managed to tear through the dimensional brane then we can only guess why. However guesswork has no weight or true credibility here. You need to accept that.
You have your ideas on why it did so, i have my own but theyre irrelevant to this debate in hand as our ideas are not confirmed on panel.
What is confirmed is that the Chaos Wave was triggered by Wandas actions, it was NOT a creation of Wandas therefore all this talk of Wandas feats when talking about the Chaos Wave are nonsensical. I dont want to hear to be honest. Stick to the facts.
Other characters have caused more damage to reality by tampering with the M'kraan crystal. They triggered multiversal destruction, multiversal destruction however is not a feat of theirs. There is a difference. Acknowledge it and lets end this farce of an exchange because this ended back in July to be honest. Right now you're running on fumes. Concede and take a break
Roma wasnt powerless against the Chaos Wave itself, the Chaos Wave has already struck and she's struggling against the after affects i.e the compromised multiversal structure as you can clearly see by everything collapsing around her.
Not the same. Good try
Roma gave the heroes a chance to save their reality and they did so by dealing with the Chaos Wave. Roma wouldve just destroyed 616. Meggan curbstomped the "all powerful" Chaos Wave and Excalibur no doubt dusted themselves off and went for a beer
Your assertion that Wanda's power really had nothing to do with the omniversal upheaval is wholly predicated on the assumption that the 616 reality is so connected with Otherworld and the omniverse that simply warping it caused a cascade, which built upon itself. Except... no simple 616 reality warp has EVER had these types of consequences. The difference? This time it was Wanda's power. Again, your desperate attempts to disassociate the two aren't working, nor are they supported by the entirety of Marvel history. You mean facts like Wanda's power directly caused omniversal upheaval? Or that Meggan can tap into teh pani-dimensional powers of the Beyond?
These aren't ideas. This is basic deduction: (i) Every other 616 reality warp = no omniversal upheaval; (ii) HOM Wanda's 616 reality warp = omniversal sh1tstorm. Gee. I wonder what the difference was that might have something to do with a character who dresses in scarlet? Hmmm. Tough question, really. And nothing stops it from having the same disastrous consequences if HOM Wanda decides to pull that crap again without guidance. Still trying to disassociate from HOM Wanda?
No. Not at all. On any of that. Stop trying to bring everything back to the Phoenix. Especially not through attempts that are sourced in your imagination.
She wasn't struggling with the Chaos Wave, only the damage caused by it? Are you inane? That page is literally the next one after when the Chaos Wave first rips through everything. Can't you even follow page progression? You're seriously trying to disassociate Roma struggling against the Chaos Wave here when it's a simple three pages, one after another after another:
If you're going to engage in attempts to confuse simple page progression and how that informs what is going on and who's dealing with what, then this debate is done. And not in a good way. Yeah. And Meggan personally stopped something that would otherwise would have required the complete destruction of an entire universe via plot device. That same something that would have destroyed the Marvel Omniverse if left unchecked. Still trying to deflect from Meggan's feat? Get over your non-Phoenix female character hatred.
ODG please properly read my arguments before quoting me and then misinterpreting me. Not once have i said Wanda has absolutely nothing to do with the Chaos Wave. NOT ONCE.
What i did say was that the Wave was triggered by her actions, what i did say was that it was a leakover of Wandas warped reality into the void and into Otherworld. What i did say was that it wasnt maintained or controlled by Wanda.
What i did do was show u that the Chaos Wave wasnt all powerful if confronted, it was just dangerous if left unchecked. What i did do was highlight your misinterpretation caused by superficial reading which clearly showeed that the Chaos Wave didnt reach out and collapse the multiverse directly as per your delusions, but instead it hit a weakpoint in reality causing a domino effect.
So not only have i highlighted how the wave was not a direct creation of wandas, but also that the wave in itself has been hyped up to ridiculous proportions and in the end was stopped by a character not paricularly powerful in the scheme of things.
What Meggan did was tap into other dimensional energies to halt the wave. Instead of looking through continuity at Meggans prowess and showings and sensibly and logically using that to see the wave as not all powerful in itself, in an effort to save face and support your decimated argument to the end youre using this instance to paint a picture of some Super Saiyan Meggan that unfortunately for you has never ever been shown to exist before or after the incident.
Quite ludicrous
This is pretty much over. Sit back and have a pint mate
Don't straw-man my rebuttal. We all know you're trying to suggest that it was the 616 reality warp that eventually led to everything. What you have to recognize and it's been staring you straight in the face -- is that no 616 reality warp ever had these disastrous consequences.
There is no explanation for the difference other than HOM Wanda's power to disrupt causality is that potent OR that HOM Wanda's power is just that gargantuan.
Next time, think. It affected the Marvel Omniverse simultaneously. On-panel. I don't even know how you're even justifying trying to downplay its power. Is this a surreptitious attempt to provide qualification for downplaying Meggan's power?
Yeah. I guess so. Keep trying to avoid what Meggan did. Your quaneuvers over low-balling Meggan as a sub-herald character were idiotic from the start.
Get over the fact that I threw it back in your face.
Thank you for clearly laying out those scans to support my point. As you can see by the order youve laid them out in, the wave hits otherworld and then you see realities collapsing into Otherworld. Roma is then shown fighting against the collapsing structure around her. Not against the wave itself.
That seems quite clear to me.
I have no hatred for non Phoenix female characters. My fave character is actually Storm and i've created a Respect She Hulk thread my friend. What i do not like is the hyping up of other characters due to misinterpretation of Marvel sources. A thorough unbiased read is all thats required
KMC Community Forums
Jul 9th, 2010 02:47 AM
