So I checked TotJ and it certainly doesn't seem that Exar Kun used the force to lift the ship off Yavin 4. When he first finds it he says, "If it still operates I won't be stranded on this moon" and afterwards we see him flying it and he says "Naga Sadow's ship was perfectly preserved."
Odd how one as objective and possessing of single standards as you never thought to bring this up in a debate as evidence of Yoda's telekinetic limits.
Um, firstly, obviously. "A bunch of nigh-untrained neophytes" doesn't describe anyone else, does it?
Secondly, "out of a solar system" is a vague description, as no set boundary of a system is described and no exact distance is given. Given that our own solar system has no "boundary" of its own, and the Oort cloud is roughly a light year out, I'd say yeah "perhaps upward of a lightyear."
Thirdly, laws of motion aren't something Star Wars seems overly concerned about, and given that the 17 very large capital ships were blasted head-over-heel countless tens, if not hundreds of billions of miles in a very short time span, this means the ships broke the speed of light. If you want to argue the application of physics in this instance, go gripe to Kevin J Anderson.
Fourthly, counting like this is f*cking pretentious.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
It doesn't makes sense to make a list like this; you need to consider ground realities behind feats/capabilities of these characters.
1. Sidious and Sith Emperor leeched energies from countless beings to fuel their power; their power so immense that they could inflict destruction on planetary-scale with their talents, should they fully concentrate. These two should rank very high in any list.
2. Luke should be above UnuThul
3. Revan; Satele; Malgus; should be above Vader
4. Their are more characters who have amazing telekinetic feats but these are not so well-known.
5. Revan is not properly explored in the context of his Force abilities in existing literature/works involving him, though Mr. Karpyshyn claims that Revan is capable of very impressive feats.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Aug 14th, 2013 at 08:28 AM
1. they harness energies from Yavin's temples
2. one of their members dies in the process
what is essentially a Force ritual isn't nearly as "overpowered" as you insinuate.
A lightyear is a rather arbitrary number to set a limit on how far the star destroyer travels, and IDK why you think bringing in astronomical phenomena specific to the area around our sol system is supposed to set any sort of limit, unless if you think Yavin IV resides in the sol system.
And Newton's first law sort of defeats the purpose of quantifying just how far out the star destroyer was pushed a certain "distance", unless if you factor in the star's (unknown) gravitational field.
You do realize that, if the laws of motion did not exist in SW, everything would look fundamentally different, right? Basic astronomical constants, such as planets not randomly stopping in the middle of space, and collisions appearing even remotely familiar, would be replaced by an irrational, bugs-bunny type of shit that we clearly don't see in G canon.
Secondly...er, also, Star Wars characters obviously believe that physics exist in their universe, since we hear about scientists, engineers and even theoretical physicists who still have jobs, and since Star Wars: Crucible suggests that Einstein's General Theory of Relativity is common knowledge; exactly how do you expect a technological society to function in a universe where there are no basic physical laws?
You see, physics existing in Star Wars is a logical necessity for the plot to work, and if you don't wish to apply logic to Star Wars...then all discussion becomes meaningless. It's called suspension of disbelief.
What makes you think they were blasted out of the star system "in a very short time span", and how did you perform the math to prove that said time span was such that the event exceeded light speed?
At the worst, you simply establish that the Jedi were using a Force technique other than telekinesis, which involves application of physical force and couldn't possibly accelerate something past lightspeed, and instead were possibly replicating Wankatine's wormhole move, or even hijacking the star destroyer's hyperdrive.
Well, my bad. That wasn't my intention (actually not sarcasm). Would it be less pretentious if I listed movie feats of similar levels of "wank" in standard number form?
1. Qui Gon Jinn and Obi Wan's ridiculous invisibility-speed feat in TPM. Michael Wong did a great analysis a while back:
Basically, they magically turn translucent, and then accelerate in the upwards of dozens of G's.
2. Qui Gon's melting the blast door in the same scene, and suffering no apparent burns, yet the melted metal should have melted his face (exaggeration).
3. Anakin's falling hundreds of meters and hitting a moving airspeeder with perfect timing, and suffering no apparent injuries or discomfort, despite having fallen at terminal velocity (IW:AotC confirms he is in free fall for 600 meters) and accelerated upon impact within the timespan of a fraction of a second, both vertically and horizontally. Obi Wan just rolls his eyes and suggests that he does this frequently.
4. Anakin and Obi Wan fighting meters from molten hot lava without bursting into flames. What's interesting is that Lucas apparently realized that that should have happened, because as soon as Anakin tries his leeroy jenkins move and loses his limbs, he bursts into flames, presumably losing his Force barriers.
------------
Perhaps I'm being a hypocrite for calling you out on this, but it's quite arbitrary to rank Abeloth above the son and the daughter.
Uh, no. Luke Skywalker and Yoda should be here.
Why is Luke two tiers below Sidious/Vitiate?
Why is Luke three tiers below an entity whose ass he routinely kicks?
Plagueis should move up. Yoda should be in the same tier as Palpatine and Luke, or possibly one lesser.
Aside from getting his ass kicked by holograms of ancient sith lords (one of which was Bane), what has Krayt done to put him on Bane's level?
In terms of raw Force power, I'd put Vader above Krayt and possibly Bane. He's 80% of OT Palpatine, and has ridiculous feats in TFU.
Also, you're forgetting Satele Shan, Malgus and Caedus, all of whom are possibly at or above Bane's level.
That's...not a very fair comparison to Jedi such as Skywalker that wouldn't unleash such levels of raw power even if he wanted to.
Also, the Sith Emperor drains Nathema using a rituals involving hundreds of sith lords - Nihilus's feat is arguably more impressive, as he appears to be able to drain planets without any prep time.
But in terms of raw power, Wankatine is massively above them both, and even above what we've seen from Abeloth (although she is probably capable of far worse), with his "destroy a NR fleet" Force storms.
It's suggested that UnuThul is actually more powerful than Luke, but that Skywalker was simply the more skilled combatant.
Satele and Revan, possibly. Malgus is implied to be less powerful in the Force than Shan.
"very impressive feats" doesn't mean much in the way of qualifying him. His almost-dies-to-six-mandalorians sort of dropped him down in my book.
Last edited by Master Han on Aug 14th, 2013 at 01:51 PM
It's been a while since I've seen someone miss the point by so wide a margin. Congratulations, I guess.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
Your original contention was that the feat in question was vastly "overpowered" because it involved knocking a star destroyer out of a system, and yet further analysis reveals that you ignore a plethora of extenuating circumstances, such as, you know, channeling power through Yavin's temples, and one of their Jedi dying in the process, as well as the highly unquantifiable nature of the feat due to the ambiguity of exactly what knocking a star destroyer out of a system really entails, that it isn't inconsistent with the feats seen in G canon at all, especially some of those upper end ones (such as Qui Gon and Obi Wan turning invisible and accelerating at 60 G's in TPM).
Run on sentence aside, your "trololol science doesn't work in Star Wars!" debacle was a good laugh.
Yeah, I consider it overpowered. I consider many of the major Force feats in the EU to be overpowered. What of it?
You read "laws of motion isn't something that Star Wars seems overly concerned about" as "science doesn't work in Star Wars!" How did you make that huge leap in wording? And I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but in a fictional universe of hyperspace, robots, spaceships, magical force fields, gravity generators, energy shields, and laser beams... the laws of physics as we know them are... how to put it... not in existence. Star Wars is fiction, buddy, it doesn't actually take place a long time ago. Their laws of physics aren't ours, that should be sort of evident given the magical, unreal, unfeasible, and fantastical nature of their technology and mental force fields. But as a part-time fan of this fiction, I consider certain parts to be... overpowered in their power.
Do you-- and I ask this hesitantly-- do you hit the point yet?
EDIT: And it wasn't a Star Destroyer. It was 17 Star Destroyers. In orbit above the planet. And they were blasted "out of the system". System is always meant as "star system". That was a focused Force push from veritable noobs that launched 17, mile-long capital ships hundreds of miles up--sagans upon sagans of miles away. If that's not an overpowered Force feat, I don't know what is.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
Last edited by Lord Lucien on Aug 14th, 2013 at 09:46 PM
Aug 13th, 2013 09:15 PM
Your original contention was that the feat in question was vastly "overpowered" because it involved knocking a star destroyer out of a system, and yet further analysis reveals that you ignore a plethora of extenuating circumstances, such as, you know, channeling power through Yavin's temples, and one of their Jedi dying in the process, as well as the highly unquantifiable nature of the feat due to the ambiguity of exactly what knocking a star destroyer out of a system really entails, that it isn't inconsistent with the feats seen in G canon at all, especially some of those upper end ones (such as Qui Gon and Obi Wan turning invisible and accelerating at 60 G's in TPM).
