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Strongest foce user
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Master Han
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yeah, I consider it overpowered. I consider many of the major Force feats in the EU to be overpowered. What of it?


Your specific example is an extremely poor one. That some Jedi can pull off a feat by inadvertently sacrificing one of their own and channeling the powers of Yavin's temples is hardly overpowered.

Wankatine's Force storms might be "overpowered", but then again, he's supposed to be the most powerful sith lord in history.



quote:

You read "laws of motion isn't something that Star Wars seems overly concerned about" as "science doesn't work in Star Wars!" How did you make that huge leap in wording? And I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but in a fictional universe of hyperspace, robots, spaceships, magical force fields, gravity generators, energy shields, and laser beams... the laws of physics as we know them are... how to put it... not in existence. Star Wars is fiction, buddy, it doesn't actually take place a long time ago. Their laws of physics aren't ours, that should be sort of evident given the magical, unreal, unfeasible, and fantastical nature of their technology and mental force fields. But as a part-time fan of this fiction, I consider certain parts to be... overpowered in their power.


OK, let me ask you this then:

If Newton's laws of motion don't apply to the Star Wars universe...why do we observe it all the time in the films, and in every single EU source?

  • Objects colliding with one another rebound with accelerations inversely proportional to their masses
  • planets perpetually orbit stars due to the centripetal acceleration caused by their gravitational fields
  • asteroids and other celestial bodies do not mysteriously stop or arbitrarily change direction...unless operated by an external force
  • SW thrusters include ion drives, which rely on Newton's third law by accelerating ions in the opposite direction of the vessel
  • objects thrown in a significant gravitational field appear to follow parabolic trajectories


You correctly point out that certain parts of SW technology do not conform with our understanding of physics, but, it is fallacious logic to assume that, aside from these explicitly described instances, the SW universe in general does not obey Newton's laws.

For example, take "inertial dampeners". They don't make any scientific sense, but the fact that their existence is even needed suggests that Newton's laws exist.

--------------

Oh, a quick google search found that all my attempts to get this through your thick skull were irrelevant:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Laws_of_Motion

Huh.

Also, read Saxton's (canon) ICS's.

Last edited by Master Han on Aug 14th, 2013 at 10:02 PM

Old Post Aug 14th, 2013 09:53 PM
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Nephthys
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Its an incredibly overpowered feat. Under similar circumstances, we've still not seen that kind of power from others.

Its only in the realms of believability because Dorsk 81 pushed himself well passed the limit to do it and there was a group of them channeling Yavin's power. Even then its an absurd feat.


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Old Post Aug 14th, 2013 10:44 PM
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Lord Lucien
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Master Han
Your specific example is an extremely poor one. That some Jedi can pull off a feat by inadvertently sacrificing one of their own and channeling the powers of Yavin's temples is hardly overpowered.

Wankatine's Force storms might be "overpowered", but then again, he's supposed to be the most powerful sith lord in history.





OK, let me ask you this then:

If Newton's laws of motion don't apply to the Star Wars universe...why do we observe it all the time in the films, and in every single EU source?

  • Objects colliding with one another rebound with accelerations inversely proportional to their masses
  • planets perpetually orbit stars due to the centripetal acceleration caused by their gravitational fields
  • asteroids and other celestial bodies do not mysteriously stop or arbitrarily change direction...unless operated by an external force
  • SW thrusters include ion drives, which rely on Newton's third law by accelerating ions in the opposite direction of the vessel
  • objects thrown in a significant gravitational field appear to follow parabolic trajectories


You correctly point out that certain parts of SW technology do not conform with our understanding of physics, but, it is fallacious logic to assume that, aside from these explicitly described instances, the SW universe in general does not obey Newton's laws.

For example, take "inertial dampeners". They don't make any scientific sense, but the fact that their existence is even needed suggests that Newton's laws exist.

--------------

Oh, a quick google search found that all my attempts to get this through your thick skull were irrelevant:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Laws_of_Motion

Huh.

Also, read Saxton's (canon) ICS's.
Jesus Christ, you insipid pedant. I said they weren't overly concerned as a glib remark on the fantastical nature of the Star Wars universe' physics. It wasn't an attack on their specific existence or application. That this stems from the use of a magical energy field of fictional nature should have been clue enough of that.


The Jedi pushed 17 mile-long capital ships clear out of a star system in an incredibly short amount of time. If the ships had been traveling at light speed it would have taken them till next year, but they were pushed out almost immediately:


He felt it strike the seventeen Star Destroyers, and they slammed backward like twigs in a typhoon. The Shockwave flung the entire fleet far out, cast them helplessly beyond the fringes of the Yavin System, their computers fried, their propulsion systems wrecked, still accelerating from the storm of the Force. Pellaeon's fleet of Star Destroyers went... away.

"He was here, sir," the tactical officer said. "The jammer satellite net is in place. The Jedi Knights have not sent any signals, as far as we can tell, and I do detect some ground activity. Heavy weapons fire in the jungles. Ground assault troops have been deployed-but the Star Destroyers are no longer here."

The sensor chief checked and rechecked her readings, shaking her head. She looked up at Daala. "There's no sign, sir. I've run a sweep all the way to the outer planets and I find no ships. No wreckage either. Vice Admiral Pellaeon was here at the jungle moon-but now he's gone."
"


Lightyears in Star Wars are dissimilar, but comparable to ours. It takes about half an hour for light to get from here to Jupiter. If these ships were blasted at the speed of light (breaking relativity), and were hurdled not to the outer planets, but out of the entire freaking system, then it would still take many hours, even days, depending on your definition of system of boundaries. The battle didn't last that long. That Force Push sent those ships out well beyond lightspeed. By our standard, it was so powerful that it broke physics.


Of course I don't give two shits about that. What I care about is that Anderson has inserted permanently in to canon a notion that the Force is an unimaginable weapon of mass destruction. I don't care who was involved in the attack or what sacrifice was made, I care that it is now canonically possible to do such a thing. I care about the subtle, downplayed, localized Force of the OT, where the greatest extent was lifting an X-Wing and having a foggy premonition. Now it's a lightspeed-breaking projectile cannon. Or in KotOR II, a world eater. Or in Dark Empire, a wormhole. Or in LotF, a time travel machine. Or in TFU, a Kamehameha. Or in The Clone Wars a substitute for Harry Potter magic. Etc., etc.


Do you f*cking get what I'm saying yet, or does your egotistical pedantry still have more to say?


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Old Post Aug 15th, 2013 01:49 AM
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Master Han
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Jesus Christ, you insipid pedant. I said they weren't overly concerned as a glib remark on the fantastical nature of the Star Wars universe' physics. It wasn't an attack on their specific existence or application. That this stems from the use of a magical energy field of fictional nature should have been clue enough of that.


For someone who, upon a quick post search, appears to have the habit of carrying every post with a ridiculously smug and condescending sneer, you seem to have deluded yourself with the notion that your public posts are confidential in some form:

quote:

Thirdly, laws of motion aren't something Star Wars seems overly concerned about,


quote:
You read "laws of motion isn't something that Star Wars seems overly concerned about" as "science doesn't work in Star Wars!" How did you make that huge leap in wording? And I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but in a fictional universe of hyperspace, robots, spaceships, magical force fields, gravity generators, energy shields, and laser beams... the laws of physics as we know them are... how to put it... not in existence. Star Wars is fiction, buddy, it doesn't actually take place a long time ago. Their laws of physics aren't ours, that should be sort of evident given the magical, unreal, unfeasible, and fantastical nature of their technology and mental force fields. But as a part-time fan of this fiction, I consider certain parts to be... overpowered in their power.


So don't try to lie to me. You attempted to support what was just a simple misunderstanding of an EU incident, which you could have conceded without any ill will, by falsely suggesting that the laws of motion don't exist in the Star Wars universe.

Not only does a quick wookieepedia search prove otherwise, but you clearly lack the scientific knowledge to realize that the laws of motion don't just apply to esoteric scientific experiments - they apply everywhere, and without them, reality would look fundamentally different, and we would not even exist. The SW universe would literally appear utterly alien and bugs-bunny esque without them.

-----

At the worst, you can correctly point out that I may have concentrated a little too much on a relatively unimportant part of the point, acting on a pet peeve of mine, but that doesn't mean that your primary contention was wrong.

And it's ridiculous that you're still arguing this point, when I just linked you to a wookieepedia page disproving it.


quote:

The Jedi pushed 17 mile-long capital ships clear out of a star system in an incredibly short amount of time. If the ships had been traveling at light speed it would have taken them till next year, but they were pushed out almost immediately:


Only in very formal papers is the "multiple-light years" diameter of a star system used, whereas in more informal dialogue, and even in other formal discussions, the furthest orbiting point of Pluto is used instead, and that certainly would not take light a year to reach.

So we have two possible star system sizes: the furthest planetary orbit, or the furthest orbit of any remotely detectable body.

Using the former requires no violation of physics and no haxed revelation of Force telekinesis abilities that have never been suggested in the mythos. The latter requires all of the above. Ergo, occam's razor demands that we use the former explanation.

Hence, the feat is not nearly as impressive as you think it is.

EDIT:

Jesus, look what happens when you actually do the research,
it appears that the Yavin System only has three planets in it. So IDK why you're assuming it's just as large as the Sol system.


quote:

He felt it strike the seventeen Star Destroyers, and they slammed backward like twigs in a typhoon. The Shockwave flung the entire fleet far out, cast them helplessly beyond the fringes of the Yavin System, their computers fried, their propulsion systems wrecked, still accelerating from the storm of the Force. Pellaeon's fleet of Star Destroyers went... away.

"He was here, sir," the tactical officer said. "The jammer satellite net is in place. The Jedi Knights have not sent any signals, as far as we can tell, and I do detect some ground activity. Heavy weapons fire in the jungles. Ground assault troops have been deployed-but the Star Destroyers are no longer here."

The sensor chief checked and rechecked her readings, shaking her head. She looked up at Daala. "There's no sign, sir. I've run a sweep all the way to the outer planets and I find no ships. No wreckage either. Vice Admiral Pellaeon was here at the jungle moon-but now he's gone."
"


...yeah, you really haven't thought this argument through, have you?

Have you considered the fact that we have no idea how close Pellaeon's fleet already was from "edge" of the star system?

EDIT: Because apparently, Yavin IV is one of the celestial bodies furthest away from the system's star.

Have you considered the fact that the attack clearly did not kill Pellaeon with the massive acceleration, or presumably any of his crew?


quote:

Lightyears in Star Wars are dissimilar, but comparable to ours. It takes about half an hour for light to get from here to Jupiter. If these ships were blasted at the speed of light (breaking relativity), and were hurdled not to the outer planets, but out of the entire freaking system, then it would still take many hours, even days, depending on your definition of system of boundaries. The battle didn't last that long. That Force Push sent those ships out well beyond lightspeed. By our standard, it was so powerful that it broke physics.


And how do you know how long the battle lasted? How do you know how much delay there is between their being cast beyond the star system, and the tactical officer noticing that they are no longer orbiting Yavin IV? Particularly given that their communications presumably weren't operational.

-----------

And yet again, even if your interpretation of events is correct, we still have the fact that the attack required a dangerous ritual that killed one of the Jedi while siphoning energies from Yavin's temples.

quote:

Of course I don't give two shits about that. What I care about is that Anderson has inserted permanently in to canon a notion that the Force is an unimaginable weapon of mass destruction.


Why Anderson? He's not the one who created I-can-destroy-fleets Wankatine.

KJA is actually a Star Wars minimalist, if anything.

quote:
I don't care who was involved in the attack or what sacrifice was made, I care that it is now canonically possible to do such a thing. I care about the subtle, downplayed, localized Force of the OT, where the greatest extent was lifting an X-Wing and having a foggy premonition.


Then perhaps you should blame Lucas, and his Jedi invisibility powers inserted into TPM.

quote:

Do you f*cking get what I'm saying yet, or does your egotistical pedantry still have more to say? [/B]


Given that I never solidly disagreed with your overall assertion that the Force has become significantly more overt throughout the course of the franchise's history, and that I was merely nitpicking a specific incident, because I hate it when people take shit out of context...you're severely overreacting here.

And while some of your laundry list holds merit, you clearly haven't thought some of your complaints through.

For example, if you were to do the math, Satele Shan's "Kamehameha" is massively less energetic and powerful than Yoda's lifting of the X wing from the swamp, or Qui Gon and Obi Wan's magical super-speed. All it did was fling a sith against a tree. Ooohhhh.

Last edited by Master Han on Aug 15th, 2013 at 04:24 PM

Old Post Aug 15th, 2013 04:12 PM
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Master Han
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Its an incredibly overpowered feat. Under similar circumstances, we've still not seen that kind of power from others.

Its only in the realms of believability because Dorsk 81 pushed himself well passed the limit to do it and there was a group of them channeling Yavin's power. Even then its an absurd feat.


How so?

You need to have a haxxed area of Force reserves (the Yavin IV temples) and several Force users, and there's a chance that some of them may die in the process. Even then, the result, a massive Force push capable of knocking star destroyers out of the star system - and maybe, maybe, accelerating them past lightspeed (but mysteriously harming nobody), is actually less powerful than many of Star Wars technology's capabilities, such as being able to blow up planets or travel at tens of millions of times the speed of light.

And from a narrative perspective, since your typical protagonists are not going to be channeling power from Yavin IV's temples in fatal rituals...it doesn't really break the plot.

Old Post Aug 15th, 2013 04:16 PM
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Lord Lucien
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The short answer was 'no', by the way.


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Old Post Aug 15th, 2013 08:54 PM
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Nephthys
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Master Han
How so?

You need to have a haxxed area of Force reserves (the Yavin IV temples) and several Force users, and there's a chance that some of them may die in the process. Even then, the result, a massive Force push capable of knocking star destroyers out of the star system - and maybe, maybe, accelerating them past lightspeed (but mysteriously harming nobody), is actually less powerful than many of Star Wars technology's capabilities, such as being able to blow up planets or travel at tens of millions of times the speed of light.

And from a narrative perspective, since your typical protagonists are not going to be channeling power from Yavin IV's temples in fatal rituals...it doesn't really break the plot.



Its overpowered in regards to it being absurdly above practically all other uses of the Force and the fact that it was done by a group of noobs.


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Old Post Aug 15th, 2013 08:58 PM
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Master Han
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Lucien, I've been debating people long enough to see through the "I'll vaguely point towards my opponent's argument being crap without actually addressing it" bluffing tactic.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The short answer was 'no', by the way.


roll eyes (sarcastic) Is that your only attempt to cover up your backtracking from "Newton's laws don't work in Star Wars!" [I give canon source stating otherwise] "um, I only meant that they don't work in this specific context!", rather than just cordially conceding the point?

As to why you think Satele Shan's Kamehameha is "overpowered" while Yoda's lifting the X wing out of the swamp isn't, when the latter would require the application of VASTLY greater force, beats me. Maybe you should have thought this through a little? Or did you just see the fancy blue special effects and just assume that it must mean mega-pwnage?

I'm well aware of, and even partially agree with, the overarching point that some of the EU lists wildly inconsistent and perhaps overpowered Force abilities. It's just that you're really horrible at debating it, and it makes for a good laugh.

-------

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Its overpowered in regards to it being absurdly above practically all other uses of the Force and the fact that it was done by a group of noobs.


...a group of noobs inadvertently sacrificing one of their own, and needing to channel energies from Yavin temples?

From an in-universe standpoint, replicating what SW technology can already perform casually isn't nearly as overpowered as being able to violate causality through precognition and foresight.

From an out-of-universe narrative and thematic angle, the very special circumstances of the event, and short memory spans of most EU authors, prevent the protagonists from abusing it.

Last edited by Master Han on Aug 15th, 2013 at 09:02 PM

Old Post Aug 15th, 2013 08:58 PM
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Lord Lucien
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If you don't get it, you don't get it. It happens. I know people who defend the "inherent quality" of the prequels. I can't change their minds or yours.


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Old Post Aug 15th, 2013 09:03 PM
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Nephthys
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Master Han
...a group of noobs inadvertently sacrificing one of their own, and needing to channel energies from Yavin temples?

From an in-universe standpoint, replicating what SW technology can already perform casually isn't nearly as overpowered as being able to violate causality through precognition and foresight.

From an out-of-universe narrative and thematic angle, the very special circumstances of the event, and short memory spans of most EU authors, prevent the protagonists from abusing it.


Yes, even then. It is one of the most stupid and absurd feats in star wars.

Who... the... hell... cares? SW tech can do that becuase they're machines and can do that stuff through science. Dorsk 81 and co were channeling enough energy to throw 17 star destroyers clear out of the solar system at whats obviously above lightspeed. Thats ****ing stupid insane and above every single TK feat in the mythos, and just about everything else barring full planetary destruction and above.

I don't care about that. I'm just saying the feat is dumb and overpowered.


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Palpatine is the most powerful force user so far.

Old Post Aug 15th, 2013 09:09 PM
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Master Han
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
If you don't get it, you don't get it. It happens. I know people who defend the "inherent quality" of the prequels. I can't change their minds or yours.


Since your argument is not axiomatic but rather a contention that requires actual explanation, you can drop the "I work in mysterious ways" religious doublespeak.

But go ahead thinking that lifting an X wing is less "overpowered" than a Kamehameha.

That wouldn't really be necessary either way, given that I actually agree, to an extent, with your overarching contention. I'm just puzzled by your stubbornness in clinging to silly examples.

Old Post Aug 15th, 2013 09:11 PM
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Lord Lucien
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, even then. It is one of the most stupid and absurd feats in star wars.

Who... the... hell... cares? SW tech can do that becuase they're machines and can do that stuff through science. Dorsk 81 and co were channeling enough energy to throw 17 star destroyers clear out of the solar system at whats obviously above lightspeed. Thats ****ing stupid insane and above every single TK feat in the mythos, and just about everything else barring full planetary destruction and above.

I don't care about that. I'm just saying the feat is dumb and overpowered.
No, it's not overpowered. Let me cite the laws of physics to prove to you why it's not. F*cking duh!


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Old Post Aug 15th, 2013 09:11 PM
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Master Han
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
No, it's not overpowered. Let me cite the laws of physics to prove to you why it's not. F*cking duh!


Since the laws of motion canonically exist in the SW canon, both based on observation and official statements...

You seem to think that the Force operates independent of physical laws. Whilst this is partially true, like all non-broken magical systems in fiction, it's still limited by its own set of rules and limitations.

For example, despite Yoda's "size matters not" snippet (straight from the OT: I suppose this justifies overpowered TK feats now?), Force users clearly struggle with objects relative to their mass.

...or, more specifically, their weight, indicating that telekinesis involves the application of a force, hence why your quote describes the star destroyers' being "accelerated".

Old Post Aug 15th, 2013 09:16 PM
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Nephthys
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Lifting an X wing is less overpowered than a Kamehameha btw.


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Old Post Aug 15th, 2013 09:18 PM
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Master Han
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nephthys
Lifting an X wing is less overpowered than a Kamehameha btw.


If you compare the force and work needed to do both...not really, no.

A Kamehameha looks more overpowered, because it's flashier. But it's actually a less impressive feat.

Old Post Aug 15th, 2013 09:24 PM
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Lord Lucien
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Master Han
Since your argument is not axiomatic but rather a contention that requires actual explanation, you can drop the "I work in mysterious ways" religious doublespeak.

But go ahead thinking that lifting an X wing is less "overpowered" than a Kamehameha.

That wouldn't really be necessary either way, given that I actually agree, to an extent, with your overarching contention. I'm just puzzled by your stubbornness in clinging to silly examples.
Imma give this one last shot.


You know how Jacen Solo was able to use the Force somehow to temporarily go back in time (flow walk) and witness Vader's storming of the Jedi Temple? That's overpowered.

You know how Sion was able to hold together his thousand-fracture body with pure hate? That was overpowered.

You know how Palpatine and Vitiate were able to leech the life out of billions of people to strengthen their own essence (or whatever)? That was overpowered.

You know how Mother Talzin was able to raise the zombies of dead Nightsisters to fight for her? Or summon a goblet from thin air? Or transmogrify Maul's legs and Oppress' body? That was overpowered.


Typically when we talk about the Force being "overpowered", we're not talking about this power:

(please log in to view the image)


We're talking about this power:

(please log in to view the image)


So how you managed to read this:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And a bunch of nigh-untrained neophytes focus-pushed an entire fleet of Star Destroyers perhaps upward of a lightyear away in what is probably one of the first examples of overpowered feats in the EU.


And decided this was the appropriate response:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Master Han
Um, firstly you're referring to the Jedi who drew power from the temples on Yavin IV to unleash energies so great, one of their members die as a side effect.

Secondly, IIRC it wasn't a lightyear, but "merely" out of the solar system.

Thirdly, given that any arbitrary impetus would carry an object in space "away" from the solar system so long as it reaches the star's escape velocity (or less, if we don't take the condition as permanent), the feat is really only impressive if:

a) the ship was close to the star or some significant gravitational field
b) the star destroyer's engines were operational, and the push was so great, it overpowered its multi-thousand G thrust capabilities, rather than disabling it ESB ion cannon style.


EDIT: Or this:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Master Han
If you compare the force and work needed to do both...not really, no.

A Kamehameha looks more overpowered, because it's flashier. But it's actually a less impressive feat.
Is a matter of some head-scratching.

Aside from not understanding what "upward of" connotes, you also made the (very strange) assumption that physical "power" was the topic of discussion. It was only ever the stated capabilities of a fantastical magical element that was in contention. Not the work load of said.



Do you, in all your contentious, pedantic, know-it-all, need-to-prove-I'm-right, holier-than-thou wisdom... get it yet?


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Last edited by Lord Lucien on Aug 15th, 2013 at 09:29 PM

Old Post Aug 15th, 2013 09:26 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You know how Jacen Solo was able to use the Force somehow to temporarily go back in time (flow walk) and witness Vader's storming of the Jedi Temple? That's overpowered.


Is going backwards in time and explicitly not being able to alter it more overpowered than having visions of the future, which we see as early as ESB?

quote:

You know how Sion was able to hold together his thousand-fracture body with pure hate? That was overpowered.


And Qbi Wan's literally cheating death isn't? This happens in the first film in the saga.

As much as I agree with SW purists on some levels, their whole "criticize everything new with silly double standards" gig just ignores the shit out of me.


quote:

You know how Palpatine and Vitiate were able to leech the life out of billions of people to strengthen their own essence (or whatever)? That was overpowered.


Agreed.

quote:

You know how Mother Talzin was able to raise the zombies of dead Nightsisters to fight for her? Or summon a goblet from thin air? Or transmogrify Maul's legs and Oppress' body? That was overpowered.


Agreed, again. It's ridiculous that you're trying to establish a contention that I already support, but still use miserably stupid examples.

quote:

Aside from not understanding what "upward of" connotes, you also made the (very strange) assumption that physical "power" was the topic of discussion. It was only ever the stated capabilities of a fantastical magical element that was in contention. Not the work load of said.



This is where the magic of the internet comes in, called "fact checking".

Looking back on your initial response to my rebuttal, you did argue the point on my terms, that is, just how powerful and energetic the relevant example was.

You denied applying the laws of motion not because you were arguing something different, but because you (falsely) didn't think they existed in the SW lore. Notice the arguing of facts, not the nature of our debate or whatever.

Somewhere down the line, you came to some sort of epiphany regarding your own mindset, and then decided to put on a smug "lol you don't understand me!" bullshit attitude.

------------

It's also interesting that you think your using "power" in an informal, rather than scientific sense, somehow justifies the fact that the "overpowered" feats you mention are largely not as applicable or useful as, say, precognition and Force visions, both of which appear in the original trilogy.

--------------

So I'm going to conclude that your whole "wah overpowered!" angle was based more on a superficial and shallow analysis of just how "flashy" the technique appears in your mind. That's the only way I can understand your considering a Force Kamehameha to be more impressive than lifting an X wing, when the latter is both literally more powerful and possessing of greater combative applications.

Last edited by Master Han on Aug 15th, 2013 at 09:44 PM

Old Post Aug 15th, 2013 09:36 PM
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Lord Lucien
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Literal time travel>>>uncertain visions.

Obi-Wan didn't cheat death. He lingered after death incorporeally. Sion literally lived inside a zombie body. One's more WTF than the other. One keeps in line with the more subdued, subtle, spiritual nature of the Force. The other keeps in line with WTF.


I argued the point on your terms because you bothered to bring it up. You wanted science in there, I obliged. But once it became clear that was the crux of your argument, and you had misconstrued "magical power" for "physical power" in a fictional universe with only limited relevance to our own physics, and had argued so pretentiously and pedantically, you raised my ire.


And damn right it's based on how flashy it is. The powers of the OT aren't flashy. The overbearing WMDs of the EU are. That X-Wing wasn't moved in an instant and with ease. But those Stormtroopers that Starkiller incinerated, were. Seriously, what more do you need before you get it?


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Old Post Aug 15th, 2013 10:02 PM
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Master Han
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Literal time travel>>>uncertain visions.


Jesus Christ, it's not literal grandfather paradox time travel. Troy Denning makes this clear in Invincible. Maybe you should try actually reading the literature before crying about it.

quote:

Obi-Wan didn't cheat death. He lingered after death incorporeally. Sion literally lived inside a zombie body. One's more WTF than the other. One keeps in line with the more subdued, subtle, spiritual nature of the Force. The other keeps in line with WTF.


I don't see how reappearing as a primitive special-effects blue ghost that can apparently go anywhere at will is more "subdued" than living inside a zombie body. Obi Wan's power is more potent, more mystical and more impossible.

If anything, if you had to bet between one or the either being possible in RL...you'd pick reanimating a corpse over magic space ghosts.

quote:

But once it became clear that was the crux of your argument,


I already admitted more than once that it wasn't, and that I was just nitpicking your point.

That doesn't mean my nitpick wasn't right, yet you stubbornly insisted on backing it.

quote:
and you had misconstrued "magical power" for "physical power"


Bullshit logic.

Magical power is quantified by its ability to influence stuff, the same way that physical and political power are ultimately defined by their respective spheres of influence.

Being able to accelerate an object with an X force is the central point of telekinesis, and ergo in evaluating TK feats, we judge it on its [magical] ability to affect the [physical] universe.

We don't judge it on how flashy it looks.

quote:

in a fictional universe with only limited relevance to our own physics,


Again, bullshit. If the laws of motion did not apply universally to Star Wars in all but the most exclusive circumstances, it would literally bear no resemblance whatsoever to what we see in the Canon.

Physics don't only apply to esoteric science experiments and case studies, Lucien.

quote:

And damn right it's based on how flashy it is.


LOL, wut?

So if Yoda lifts a teacup with a blue aura of energy, it's overpowered, but if Yoda lifts an entire X wing without fancy special effects, it's just fine?

Maybe you should substitute "overpowered" with "aesthetically incompatible with the Force's original theme and style", and I might actually agree with you.

quote:
That X-Wing wasn't moved in an instant and with ease. But those Stormtroopers that Starkiller incinerated, were. Seriously, what more do you need before you get it?


You do realize that slowly moving an X wing is more powerful than rapidly blasting stormtroopers, right?

Your entire argument is predicated on looking at feats from only the most possible superficial lenses.

Last edited by Master Han on Aug 15th, 2013 at 10:20 PM

Old Post Aug 15th, 2013 10:13 PM
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