I'm being honest; You're being insulting with your argumentation and you know it.. or at least, you should know it.
ON 2 feats compounded by hundreds of others based on a system. If you feel comfortable writing that off for PIS instances... well then you're not engaging in a fair debate and that's all there is to it.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
What's the system? You seem to think they were ftl as soon as they were able to dodge ki blasts. Do you have any instances of them talking about ki blasts getting faster? Do you have any quantifiable instances of their speeds being close to c besides those 2 feats?
What's the system? The power level system? Seriously, are you keen on DBZ? Do you NOT lend credence to the system established via power levels? Because if you don't then you're not arguing against characters that exist.
There doesn't need to be any mention of ki blasts being faster coinciding with the strength of the fighter, it's basic reasoning... which again, only doesn't apply if you don't rely on the system.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Wow, I can't believe I just read 43 pages of this debate for the last couple of hours.
I think what this post is missing are more simulated scenarios of fights between Thor and Vegeta. I know there was at least one simulated scenario, in which Vegeta would be too arrogant and that would cost him in the end.
What I believe though is that Vegeta will get the first punch and maybe the first 100. I don't believe though that Thor will be taken out without reacting. I think once Thor reacts, Vegeta will be spending the majority of the fight trying to evade Mjöllnir. Then, Vegeta will eventually run out of energy and succumb. This is assuming Vegeta even knows what the capabilities of Mjöllnir are and he does not resort to any energy attacks.
Thor is a tank. I can see him taking a lot of punishment from Vegeta. I mean even in wikipedia they gave 3 different sources showing how Thor "possesses high resistance to physical injury."
Coming from the guy who just said Thor can tank 100 of Vegetas punches and still pull off a W?
In any case that wasn't called for.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Basically, we're to lend credence to a system which doesn't specifically break down how much a Power Level rating allocates towards strength class or speed. Does someone with a Power Level of 5000 boast exactly x2 strength, speed, durability, energy projection of someone with a Power Level of 2500? What's the minimum Power Level required for 100 ton class strength? FTL speed? It's all guess work, and at times, shitty guess work at that.
I know you read my large post in regards to this... or at least.. I think you did. Either way read it again because it covers pretty much everything you just asked about.
In any case; You should know the answer to this already. Yes, if not more, and it's actually harder to prove that someone of 2500 is ONLY half as weak as someone of 5000 in every regard.
So we ignore the qunatifiable stuff for regards to PIS AND on top of that ignore the whole use of the guage system we were given? Yeah, that's not debating, that's willful ignorance or wishful thinking.
Though I do love how we toss out two quantifiable feats of Ki speed and reaction but have to address Thor's handful of ambiguous speed feats as FTL anyways... lulz
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
We're to use a system, a numerical "point" based system that Toriyama himself discarded? The only thing we know for certain is that if Person A's power level is > than Person B's than Person A is overall more powerful. How much more stronger, faster, durable? We don't know that and it's ridiculous to try to assign quantifiable feats based on what one person did and then roll it fowards to apply that same feat but >>>> to someone later in the saga.
Toriyama did not discard his own system, he discarded the credibility of scouters. That's not the same thing.
We know for a fact that more PL equals more strength, durability, power output, speed, reflexes. Goku proved it and it's supported multiple times throughout the series.
Again, you CAN discard that, but that isn't a legitimate meathod of debate and certainly discards the integrity of the entire series. You're not arguing against DBZ characters the way in which they were managed to us, you're engaging in a lowballing fest of wishful thinking.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
How much more stronger, faster, etc? You. Can't. Prove. How. Much. You can make assumptions, even educated ones, but you can't prove how fast Goku moves during combat or flight. Feel free to throw random unsupported numbers but it won't mean anything without concrete evidence.
And explain how it's lowballing when I'm holding the same standard to which I'm holding Thor? If Thor didn't have quantifiable feats of strength or speed, I wouldn't claim he can lift x amount or fly x fast. But he does. Lowballing is disregading the high end feats, feats Thor can and will use in a fight on a forum setting (ie. Best to His Ability). If I used an example of Goku getting knocked out by Chi-Chi during one of his antics or hurting his head in comedic fashion as him having shit durability, yeah, I'm lowballing the holy hell out of him. But I'm not. I'm using what's shown in comics and in the canon manga as evidence.
Basically, because DBZ has set itself up in this way, we're supposed to just say "Whatever, that's how DBZ works so we don't need much in the form of quantifiable proof." is absurd. And DBZ's ABC logic would be viable if Thor was...y'know.
As the whole point of Kaio-ken proved? twice as much PL = AT LEAST twice the stats across the board. You have to understand how generous I'm being here given that a difference in a few thousand PL points has made characters in the 20-30000 range completely outclass eachother.
That's how, by using the same standard on two completely different types of characters. We HAVE to use concrete evidence with Thor because there's no use of a PL system at play where his overall strength is constantly increasing.
DBZ DOES use a system like that though and it HAS to be implemented in order to make accurate assessments of the characters' abilities. If it's NOT implemented in these debates, then you are not debating accurately.
Uh... yeah... pretty much..
As I stated before it's not a case of ABC logic. that's something completely different than the 1-2-3 system DBZ uses.
It's "absurd" to treat DBZ characters like they are regular comics characters while ignoring the rules described in their world. IN DBZ the PL system matters and it means that every actual quantifiable feat is one that can be treated to the guess work set up by that system.
That most comic readers don't understand this simple fact is why most of these DBZ debates have been so derailed in the past.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
So, essentially, DBZ supporters have free reign to pull numbers out of their ass regarding feats of strength and speed based on probable Power Levels and how they rank up against one another without quantifiable feats? They can just "guess" and make assumptions and that flies as their proof? That's phucking awesome.
Not at all.... DBZ supporters have reign to regard and apply a system that is ever present in the series to compound on actual quantifiable proof that does exist.. because again, that's how the series works.
Guessing and educated estimations aren't exactly the same thing, and calculated estimations are definitely far from excusable as proof.
Alternatively..... So essentially Thor supporters have free reign to cherry pick through examples of PIS and deem them legitimate while ignoring the quantifiable feats DBZ does have as well as an established system the entire series bases itself around for power guaging? They can just "ignore" entire plotlines of the series at a whim and that flies as their argument? That's phucking awesome.
Retarded, yet awesome.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
I like how you took what I said at the end of my post and applied it your own. It made me chuckle and say "Hey, that's what I said!"
Are you really going to deem all of the feats supporting what people are saying Thor can do as PIS? Especially when said feats are far from one time occurrences? Cherry picking works both ways. Using Thor getting attacked by Iron Patriot, the DA, and U-Foes as reasoning why a DBZ character energy blast would ruin his day is pretty funny after all. Almost as lulz worthy as:
-Thor having a hard time with Nappa, the mid herald
-Janemba being a Universal Reality Warper
-Majin Buu as a Sub Skyfather
-Mystic Gohan beating Superman, Thor, Flash, and Wonder Woman all at once.
-Vegeta being able to planet bust with his physical strength.
-Vegeta's ego and pride being less detrimental than Thor's.
-Thor not being able to absorb Vegeta's ki and making him eat it.
-Claiming that Thor would be unable to tag Vegeta.
-Etc, etc. etc.
__________________
Last edited by JakeTheBank on Jun 22nd, 2010 at 05:55 AM
Well I don't support such opinions so I really don't have to worry about it. My opinion that energy blasts would be a set-back on thor stem more from the fact that these guys are moon and planet busters on a bad day using less than .25% of their power, and that Thor doesn't tank that kind of punishment with a smile on his face.
In any case I haven't even argued about energy blasts reaching Thor since I've already made my case on this fight, and Vegeta winning via blasts wasn't one of them.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Deny what? That the whole post about "Well, yes, we can guess in favor of feats based on what we think is valid" wasn't retarded and phucking awesome?
Less than .25% of their power? Can you prove th-
Nevermind.
I guess you're going to claim that every energy attack used in DBZ at a certain point is a moon/planet busting attack, despite the fact that when these attacks are deflected, avoided, or tanked, said moon/planet doesn't....well, bust? That's like saying because Thor endured Odin's attacks, he casually can endure galaxy busting power. It's a Super Saiyan level farce at best.
And no, Vegeta isn't going to win this strictly on melee because he will use energy attacks which will be absorbed by Mjolnir, if not his ki reserves in general. I have yet to see anything showing Vegeta enduring one good swing/throw with Mjolnir without being royally phucked up, let alone a prolonged battle with a guy with vastly superior stamina than him.
That you necessarily have to ignore the entire premise of the DBZ world in regards to PL to ignore their feats.
And yeah... I already did.
The only way you can argue otherwise is under the premise that EVERY fighter as strong as Freeza or stronger after the second season is holding back less than .25% of their power in EVERY fight...
Pretty sure we're supposed to believe that the blasts have such energy but explode in a condensed fashion via control of the user which would be why when they sail off into space they end up planet busting ala Vegeta vs. Frieza.
Again, reading into plotholes and trying to use that to lowball DBZ characters is no way to debate. How is anyone supposed to take that type of argumentation seriously? How are we supposed to believe that Piccolo who blew up a moon has more destructive power than characters who are literally thousands of times stronger than him later in the series because their blasts don't do the same amount of damage on the planets they're fighting on? There's a massive amount of disconnect there.
IF Vegeta opens up with melee, and Thor doesn't immediately resort to Mjolnir's energy manipulating abilities.. he'll get decimated.
Again re-read that long post of mine because you're misrepresenting my argument AGAIN, when I've already clearly laid it out.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Last edited by jinzin on Jun 22nd, 2010 at 06:23 AM
Comics are a medium, not a genre. 'Movies' is not a genre, nor 'Books'. Why would comics be? Do you even know what a genre is?
I like how you completely disregarded everything in my post.
Also, what fundamental rules? That's complete bullshit. Please direct me to these fundamental rules.
If I draw a character running across a flat plane, and narrate that he's running just short of the speed of light, he's running just below C, "fundamental rules" be damned.
While I actually agree with the DBZ side somewhat, I've never been convinced of Thor's speed. I thought this line was worth looking at.
If someone's actually said this... My god. Nova a low herald has blown up suns. Nappa hangs out in the zone between High Meta and low herald that Marvel like to ignore.
KMC Community Forums
"damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Jun 22nd, 2010 04:30 AM
