Wow I'm going to hand it to you, you're getting really good with your ability to track down obscure showings. For those of us who weren't regular Superman readers back in 1995 how about you post the scans of this battle.
Also the Superman has lost fights so Goku can beat him is such a weak argument. Goku's hardly the king of winning fights.
Also a bit of non Carver related confusion:
How on Earth was Superman in Final crisis weak? He lifted infinite mass, caught a 70km long spaceship traveling at relativistic speeds, one shotted a shield that had held off all Earths remaining heroes, memorized the construction of the miracle machine with a glance and killed a multiverse destroying entity with his voice.
You could construct a solid argument against Goku from the showings just from main book and Superman beyond.
Broly was destroyed by the Sun. Superman can take sunbaths in the sun.
Superman > Broly > SS1 Goku.
This kind of logic is funneh!
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In Doomsday Wars, a Doomsday possessed by Brainiac caught a fleeing Superman with a running tackle, before he could make any headway.
To be fair, Superman was carrying a baby at the time, but I believe it was contained in a device designed to protect it.
But as to Goku's speed, here's one I just realized:
Kaio Sama was able to pick out the Saiyon pods in deep space, correct? And we can infer the ships would need to be going multiples of light to reach Earth within a year, right?
Yet, Kaio Sama could not see Goku and Freeza on Namek. A being who could pick out two ships traveling at interstellar speeds, lost track of two beings on a single planet because they were moving faster then he could perceive.
I'll point out an important difference: The space ship was following a strait line and thus easy to track, while Goku and Freeza were zig-zagging, jinking around, and largely moving in a haphazard fashion. Much harder to get a lock.
It should also be easier to find two people on one planet then two pods in the vastness of space, yet Kaio did find the pods easily, so we know he can find objects with ease.
But presumably, Kaio was looking right at them (And it's not like he's locked at looking directly at their faces.. He could see the entire battlefield, if he wanted to), and simply couldn't see them. It's similar to when Kami on Earth was looking at Goku vs Piccolo, and Kami commented even him, with his godly eyes, couldn't see Goku anymore, despite everything happening in a small, contained arena.. (And Kami is also a speedster, so it means more then the general population losing track of him).
The pods in the vastness of space are the only things putting out chi to lock onto and going on a highly predictable course. Once you know their velocity, speed alone doesn't make something hard to track because you can match the viewing to the speed of the target.
When something is changing direction a lot, you can't do that so easily.
Its kind of different though; King Ki spotted the ship immediately and the ship was going far faster than the speed of light but he was still unable to even view Goku and Frieza fight the entire time.
I never thought about that.... HMMM, good point CD.
The thing about it is, it should have been much easier for him to follow Goku and Frieza due to him feeling their power levels vs the ship not giving off a power level but he was still unable to detect them.
You are the worst debator I have seen in my life... Just plain out BOO BOO.
Beta Ray Bill never pulled a planet but I know his fist would hurt Superman. Hyperion do not have one lifting feat under his belt but I know for a fact that he will hurt Superman. Juggernaut doesnt have a lifting feat under his belt, Doomsday, Titus, I can go on for DAYS on the people that can physically knock Superman out and do not have not ONE lifting feat under their belts.
Has Superman even punched someone through mountains? Has Superman ever created Nuke like explosions during punches? Has Superman ever created shock waves with his punches that was seen from miles away? Has Superman even punched so hard that it destroyed smaill hills around him? NO... Lifting feats isnt the same as punching power.
Why would Goku need to move a planet? Why would Goku need to hold a black hold or move a mag wheel... thats not Anime like so your feats dont mean sh** to me. Do you think that King Hyperion can physically hurt Superman because guess what, Hype doesnt have a lifting feat under his belt.
Galactus never moved a planet (even though Superman has never moved a planet) so I guess Superman can beat him as well. Thanos never lifted anything the size of a car... I guess Superman can defeat him as well.
Prove that Doomsday is faster than Goku, show me some speed feats besides "he tagged Superman" because we dont even know what Superman combat speed is.
He did destroy one while fighting stardust though. With physical blows.
Neither has Goku. I swear one day when I'm rich and famous I'm going take a big group of Dragonball Z fans mountain climbing. Mountains are really big. Also I believe Bizzaro has punched Superman through the planet. I will go scan hunting.
Hyperbolic on your part. I assume you don't actually mean city busting as a side effect of punching someone. If you mean creat big blasts due to physical blows, try the Superman versus Doomsday fight in the New Krypton arc. Goku has never done nuke level punches.
Has Superman even punched so hard that it destroyed smaill hills around him?
Ah yes hills... the most durable substance known to man. And besides if environmental damage determined power levels Nappa would be stronger than Majin Vegeta.
Superman has punched people into space, across Solar systems, he's warped reality with the force of his punches and shaken the entire planet with his blows.
Superman has also claimed his punches are planet busting and if we take away claims the best we can say is that Goku is a planet buster using actual feats. You don't think Goku is just a planet buster do you?
Plenty of anime characters have quantifiable lifting feats. Plenty of Anime characters have planet moving feats. You lack feats for Goku so your claiming strength doesn't matter, despite the fact most of Goku's training was strength based.
So we've quantified goku's speed now?
You admit Superman has superspeed. He has proven lightspeed and above reactions. How is he suddenly slower than Goku?
ok, so yeah, if superman really does move light speed like you say, and even though it was superman AND green lantern pulling the earth, superman pwns goku. I always thought goku was stronger than superman, but man, i didn't realize he could do such things
Superman is able to perceive both flash's who are at the very least moving at lightspeed if not beyond. Note that Barry Allen has been dead since 1985 so its not just Superman guessing. Superman had no idea Barry was alive at this point.
The Bizzaro planet feat was from Superman v2 #181. I'm having trouble acquiring a copy.
He destroyed a planetoid, that wasnt a planet and he rammed Star Dust into it, he didnt physically punch the planet to dust.
Goku and Frieza both destroyed mountains while fighting and stop using a bizarro comic as evidence when majority if not ALL of bizarro comics are comic relief and made for children. Superman highest showings are in bizarro comics and I already know why.
Again, show me Superman hardest punch and stop using what he lift as evidence because I can name numerous of people that do not have a lifting feat that would DESTROY Superman. Konvikt didnt have not one lifting feat under his belt and he one shotted Supes along with Titus. Hell, Titus failed to bust out of a GL construct that had the weight of 100 tons.
Again, why would Goku need to lift anything when DBZ wasnt a anime revolved around lifting. I know for a fact that Goku is stronger than Colossus and Thing but again, regarding lifting feats, Colossus have him beat because Goku never had any reason to lift anything.
Superman does have super speed and honestly, I think in a fight against people like Thor, Surfer, etc... he would land the first four hits but when fighting DBZ characters, he is getting F***** up because he isnt fast enough. I dont know why this is an argument when it is pretty much plain and clear that Goku is much faster. How about this, its pretty obvious that if a character is visible to the eyes during combat, that mean that he is moving MUCH slower than someone that is completely invisible to the necked eye (even super human eyes). Now if you can prove this then all of this debate that we have had is meaningless. Can you show me Superman fighting so fast that he is completely invisible? I dont want to guess that he is invisible, I want you to show me Superman fighting at a speed that makes him completely invisible to the necked eye; even human eyes. Light moves so fast that its pretty much invisible to the necked eye so if Superman is as fast as light (like you say) this shouldnt be hard for you to find.
In regards to the Star Breaker comment, how much of the planet was Green Lantern moving? Was it 50%, 60, 10... when you answer this, PROVE IT.
So what I am asking for is a punching feat from Superman... a combat speed feat from Superman... and the star breaker feat that you like to bring up and again, why would Goku need to pull a planet?
LOLOLOHAHAHAHAHAHALOLOLOL... Look at the humans in that scan, they seen Flash as well. Darkseid also seen flash and had his beams follow him. So with that said, Darkseid along with the humans in the scan have light speed reaction.
I love how you all nit pick... its ridiculous. First you use people hitting flash as evidence that they can go light speed when we have everyone in DC including their grandmama tagging flash and then you use people seeing flash as evidence when again we have on panel proof that the humans were looking at them as well.
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Sep 9th, 2010 11:46 PM
