Before he came out of the boom tube, yes, he was going light speed but after that it was pretty obvious that he wasn't. Look at the people besides supes that is looking at him... even darkseid seen him. That's not a faster than light feat.
"We're approaching a never-ending instant. The ultimate stop sign! Have to reach superluminal velocity!"
Please stop.
Also, something just occurred to me... Aren't all those people enthralled by Darkseid at the moment with the Anti-Life Equation? Why WOULDN'T they be able to see him, since right now their eyes are basically Darkseid's, who can in fact perceive FTL speeds?
The Flashes outright claim that they are already running at c, and that they are going to reach faster than c.
For one thing, the second scene never happened in the manga. Second of all, tracking someone moving in a straight line at constant speed is much easier than tracking someone moving randomly in different directions. I can easily see a plane moving through the sky at 500 mph, but a small bug buzzing around is much more difficult to track. That doesn't mean the bug is anywhere near 500 mph.
Says the guy who uses FANFICTION to support his arguments.
He's punched them apart.
I'm not an expert on him.
But they have powerscaling with characters who do have feats on that level.
No one in DBZ has physical feats anywhere near that level. That is the difference.
He's punched Bizarro straight through the earth and out the other side.
He's punched apart asteroids much larger than anything any nuke could destroy.
BTW, no DBZ character has ever created "nuke-like explosions" with just a punch. They use their ki to do that.
He created shockwaves from his punches against Khyber that shook the earth while he was miles up in the atmosphere. And no DBZ character has ever "created shockwaves with his punches that were seen from miles away", either.
He punched so hard the entire planet was being destroyed while he was under a red sun. Also, no DBZ character has done that either. Closest was when Goku was fighting Vegeta and their ki auras (not physical strength) were causing the hills around them to shake (not be destroyed).
Correct. Punching power is stronger than lifting power. So Superman's lifting feats prove his punches are even stronger.
You want more punching feats?
Punching Wonder Woman to earth from the sun at FTL speeds
When fighting Doomsday, the shockwave of his punches created earthquakes that reached the earth's core and broke all the windows in Metropolis.
Why should Superman have to destroy one?
He has powerscaling with people who do have those kinds off feats. This is what you fail to understand.
1. Galactus has moved entire galaxies
2. Superman has moved planets.
Thanos destroyed a planet and its moon just as a side effect of physically clashing with Drax in his weaker form. Do you understand the concept of powerscaling?
Superman has speed feats way above Goku.
Doomsday is considered a legitimate threat to Superman, even when Superman was using super speed against him.
Therefore, Doomsday is faster than Goku.
Q.E.D.
Stop downplaying. That was a ****ing planet, what makes you think it was any smaller than earth?
With ki. Not physical strength.
Special pleading fallacy. Bizarro is just as canon as any other villain, and many of his stories feature serious plotlines. In a recent Supergirl storyline, a Bizarro Supergirl was ripping people's limbs off. "Comic relief for children?" Maybe if you have a twisted sense of humor. Superman's best feats are against Dominus, and in Superman Beyond 3d, and in OWAW, etc. Not in Bizarro comics.
This is called powerscaling. I might as well say to you "Android 18 never showed the ability to destroy a planet yet she easily beat Vegeta so SSJ Vegeta is nowhere near planet level". If you want to talk about Goku getting hurt by people with no feats, look at Uub.
Superman comic books aren't "revolved around lifting", either, genius. You're just trying to make excuses for why your feats don't match up to ours. Saying "well he could but he never wanted to" could be applied to anything. Going by that logic, Superman can destroy the universe with a fart but he never had a reason to.
LOL art syle. Try actually quantifying and calculating their speed, instead of just judging it based on how blurry the art is and how many afterimages it has.
A feat like that is meaningless because there are so many ways to appear invisible to human eyes it can't be used as a speed feat. In fact, a human - sized object only has to move at around 200 miles per hour to be invisible to human eyes. Not to mention that DBZ characters can be seen fighting by human eyes even at the end of the manga.
Here's a counter challenge: Show me any DBZ character, without using a teleportation technique, crossing a distance at a speed greater than the speed of light. Show me calculations to prove it. Then show me a DBZ character reacting to something moving at the speed of light or higher. Again, show your math.
If we assume 50%, then that's still at least planet moving for Superman, since Starbreaker was pulling the earth in the opposite direction, so they had to overwhelm his power as well as move the mass of the earth.
Of course Darkseid has lightspeed reactions. And the humans were being controlled by him, basically his cameras. So I don't see a problem here.
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Last edited by Endless Mike on Sep 18th, 2010 at 07:33 AM
1. The power used to create it was linked with magic
2. He was going at relativistic speed and could have had near infinite energy
3. He has better durability showings than that without getting knocked out.
Really carver, give it up. You have no grasp of logic, calculations, mathematics, or quantification. You rely on on cherry-picking low - end feats, ignoring powerscaling, and judging speed by nothing other than art style. You are one of the most laughable fanboys I have ever met.
Superman casually murders Goku with no effort. Deal with it.
What does that have to do with anything? The moon itself wasn't magical.
There's no such thing as near infinite.
Like surviving a yellow sun supernovae? That's not a feat of durability as Superman gains his powers from yellow sunlight. At the very least it would be unquantifiable due to his biology.
Not to mention that Superman has been knocked out by regular nukes, at least twice.
You're the last one who should be questioning anyones mathematical capacities and intuitional quantification. We've been over this already.
To be fair, I've never seen the slightest implication of that Superman is able to fight and react at the speed of light.
Last edited by Astner on Sep 18th, 2010 at 05:34 PM
So you are telling me that it is easy to track a ship that was going hundreds if not thousands the speed of light but it is much difficult to track a being that you claim that doesnt have the feats of moving 1% the speed of light moving in a zig zag? Is that what you are telling me? King Ki can track a ship moving at c+ but he cant track a target that is zig zagging less than 1% of the speed of light. WOW
That fight wasnt voted on, it was written by a company, Wizard that has much rights on the character than any of the dreams that you have on a Superman and Goku fight. Its much more canon than your words is what I am trying to say and again, it was shown to the world that Goku can stomp Superman with one punch.
Show me beta ray bill punching a planet apart. I seen him RAMB someone into a planetoid at high speeds destroying it but punching, never happened.
So we are using the power scaling argument? You know I can prove this statement as being wrong a thousand folds right? I can just use Colossus fighting Gladiator and doing good and lets not forget that Gladiator has punched planets to dust, etc...
I can use Gladiator matching Tyrants eye beam or Cap taking on Hulk physically or Venom fighting Juggernaut or Wolverine fighting Namor or... the list goes on. Who people has fought isnt a safe argument to use because Spiderman alone would be high herald.
Punching Wonder Woman IN SPACE at tremendous speeds isnt all that impressive. There isnt anything holding a persons back when regarding anything in space. I can get a house and put it in front of a human "in space" if that human has any way of controlling his momentum he could move that house or even push it a couple of feat since there really isnt any gravity stopping him from doing so.
That punch didnt do everything that you just said, the only thing that it did was shatter some windows. There were humans right beside Superman and Doomsday when they were fighting, if that punch was that powerful, none of them would have been alive. As for this statement that you are trying to use, I know where you got it from and that was a hyperbole statement, kind of like, Frieza being a universal threat which was stated numerous of times.
Maybe you should read this comic... it was made for children.
So you are using post crisis Superman feats? With that said, can I use this then?
Only in your dreams. Standard Superman fights fist to fist with Grundy, Kalibak, Konvikt, Darkseid, Shaggy man, and the list goes on. There is no evidence at all where Superman has EVER fought at blinding speed... NONE. Again, light is invisible to human and some Super human eyes, you cant even provide proof that none super humans are unable to see him during combat. Has anyone EVER commented on Supermans speed during combat... saying that they were unable to touch him or see him, etc...
Doomsday on his best day wouldnt TOUCH Goku. Luthor in his armor has also tagged Supes, now prove that Luthor is faster than Goku. By the way, Luthor just got stomped by Deathstroke and admitted that Deathstroke was fast. So again, prove that Luthor is faster than Goku in his suit since Luthor has went toe to toe with Superman.
Aaaahh, you want to use the KI argument. Prove that the shockwaves that Frieza was creating when he was punching Goku was KI. Prove that the hills that was being destroyed by frieza and Goku physical fight was KI and stop saying sh**.
Fail... Dragon ball Z is revovled around power levels... DC doesnt have this luxury and the powerscaling rule that you are trying to apply has been thrown out of the window a long time ago. Thor fighting Celestial and Galactus proves this.
Stop making excuses... Goku along with any DBZ fighter are truly disappearing and this has been proven on numeorous of occasions when people are asking "where are they, where did they go". Hell, Vegeta proved this when Goku first showed him the "instant transmission". Vegeta first words when Goku disappeared was "whats impressive about that? Its nothing but super speed." Now again, Goku fight at blinding, invisible speed since he was a child: prove that Superman can do the same thing or STFU and stop trying to throw out the art comment. The thing about it issssss... Superman doesnt have one showing proving that he can do this.
Show me Superman destroying a planet and you better not use that Zod and Superman fight and the Goku and Vegeta fight, PROVE that it was KI that was making thing explode around them when it was showing nothing but their fist. STOP THROWING EVERYTHING OFF OF KI. How about this, when superman lifts things the weight of it does not crumble under his hands, example... Superman lifted a pyramid... A pyramid would fall apart if it is lifted off the ground but the pyramid was still intact when Superman lifted it. So with that said, we all know Superman have tactile telekinesis so his lifting feats might not revolve around strength, it might revolve around his other power set (tactile telekinesis).
Here is where you fail...using real world caculations for a comic book. Caculate this for me. Hulk can lift trillions of tons... Wolverine has enhance flesh but its not that far above human flesh. Why when an Enraged hulk punch Wolverine, why doesnt all of his flesh fall off of his body?
Answer this for me... when Firelord and Thor fought and Firelord hit Thor continously with blast that were stated as being hotter than the sun, why didnt earth explode. Why was Black Bolt able to create black holes on earth without any destruction? Why was magneto able to create black holes on earth without any destruction caused to the planet. Caculate that for me and while doing that, show me that combat speed feat that I keep asking you for.
Now this is funny... I'm not even going to respond to the rest of your posts because I know you are joking with the rest of your comments... This is hilarious.
Okay I would like to ask a question for anyone debating on this excuse to flaunt power Goku doesn't really have.
First lets take Goku's best physical strength feats dating back from Dragonball all the way to the end of Dragonball Z: SSj4 doesn't count.
Now lets compare those to regualr Superman's (post-Crisis whatever) best strength feats and compare them with Goku's: Pre:Crisis, One Million, and Superboy prime are excluded.
After doing this, the winner should be clear. BTW Superman has at least taken on people who would solo the DBZ/DBGT verses and at "LEAST" held his own
What are you talking about? Everyone has taken on people far powerful than themselves... that's not a feat... its just part of being a hero. If we went by your standards... thor would be the most powerful high herald and people like supes and surfer won't be anything to him since thor hs out right defeated galctus twice on panel and also have wins against celestials. That's why we base our jugdment off of the norm and superman along with thor are in wonderwoman... captain marvel, etc league, a high herald.
By the way super saiyan or above goku would stomp superman easily 10 out of 10.
You know what I meant. Stop being so goddamn pedantic.
So let me feed you this hamburger then. Did I mention it's an exploding hamburger?
BTW he survived a supernova from a red sun-eater and many other examples.
PIS. He's shown to be pretty much immune to them even when sitting in Kryptonite.
Carver here has never even attempted any kind of calculation or quantification. And you just like to debate me on mathematical abstractions that have nothing to do with the subject in question, so don't hijack the thread.
Sacrifice arc, fights Wonder Woman to the sun and back in under 2 minutes. Why do I have to keep bringing this up over and over again?
Yes. Because it's on a straight path and easy to predict.
Of course the real point is that King Kai never couldn't follow Frieza and Goku in the manga. Someone just made that up.
It's fanfiction. The authors have no authority in anything. It no more than any retarded thing you say.
Punching, smashing, you know what I mean. Physical force.
And what's your point? If you don't have a set power for a character other than how he has fared against another character, we can assume his power from that.
In a flashback told by Spider-Man, the Cap fanboy.
If a character consistently matches strength against people with high-end strength feats, then they should be able to do those feats too. This is simple.
Oh, now we get the infamous "IN SPACE" argument. Being in space doesn't make someone magically a billion times stronger. Also, your lack of physics understanding is showing. Objects in space do not have weight, but they have mass. Pushing a house in space would not do much since you wouldn't have the strength to accelerate it at any significant speed. If you were in space and you punched another person in space, they would go slowly drifting away from you at maybe a foot per second. Not faster than the speed of light.
No, it was stated directly by narration and there is nothing to contradict it. Frieza was only stated to be the strongest in the universe because the people at that time didn't know about the beings that were stronger than him.
It's just as canon as any other comic and took place in his normal series. Stop making excuses.
Yes I am using Post-Crisis Superman feats, as that is the canon version. I assume you meant to say Pre-Crisis, but it wasn't Pre-Crisis, it was Post-Crisis. And that scan is really old, he couldn't go FTL at that time, but he managed to do so later and now can do it consistently. I can post a scan of Kid Goku failing to keep up with Bulma's motorcycle, that would be just as valid.
Considering you judge speed based on how many blur lines and afterimages are in the art, this statement is laughable.
Why would that matter, instead of quantifiable feats? Do you know what quantifiable means?
This whole line of inquiry is meaningless as that's no way to prove speed. I can show you the likes of Wolverine, Captain America, Spider-Man, etc. moving so fast people can't see them and don't know where they've gone. Human vision is dependent on many factors and can easily be fooled. The fact that you take this as any kind of reliable standard for speed proves the failure of your thinking methods.
BTW, you're going to come up with stupid excuses to dismiss these, but lookie here:
Besides, Superman always holds back against most enemies, he never wants to kill Luthor. He could have killed him basically anytime but he doesn't because he's not that kind of person.
First show me manga scans of these shockwaves.
Goku kicked Frieza through two small islands. I already mentioned this.
Special pleading fallacy. You can't use the argument one way and say it doesn't cont the other way. Besides, Thor drove away a weakened, hungry Galactus with power from Odin and only broke Exitar's armor by using up all of his power and it didn't hurt him at all. BTW, Toriyama dropped using power levels after the Frieza saga because they were too inconsistent.
Yeah, and then when Goku came back with Master Roshi's glasses Vegeta shit his pants, when Superman could have done that in the same amount of time without any need for instant transmission.
What you fail to realize is that doesn't actually mean anything. It's not quantifiable in most cases, and much slower characters than Superman or Goku can do the same thing. If you want to prove a superiority in speed, you have to use actual NUMBERS. I know the idea of using actual math probably scares you, but at least try.
Show me Goku destroying a planet first.
They were not exchanging punches at the time. They were grappling. Therefore, there were no kinetic shockwaves that could have caused such a phenomenon. Also, earlier you asked for Superman creating explosions with his punches:
Funny thing is, no DBZ character has ever done that either.
TTK just keeps things together while he's holding them. It can also be used to disrupt matter. It doesn't enhance physical strength. And even if it did, so what? The force applied to a target would still be the same, no matter what source it came from.
Why did you quote me twice?
And the answer is because Wolverine has an adamantium skeleton and in insane healing factor.
Your decrying the use of science and math is so pathetic since you know that if you play by the correct rules, you can't win. You judge speed based only on superficial, unquantifiable factors, THAT DON'T PROVE ANYTHING.
Speed = distance/time. If you deny that, then you are denying a fundamental logical principle and you might as well stop debating altogether because it would be impossible to ever prove anything under your standards.
"Hey, A is really fast, he disappears from this guy's sight"
"Okay, how fast is he then?"
"I don't know, but pretty fast"
See? That's all you can get. You can't prove anything. Not to mention you are contradicting your own arguments, earlier you said that Vegeta and Nappa's spaceships were moving faster than light. If you deny the very definition used to determine speed, how do you know that? They could have been moving as slow as mollases as far as you know, since you decry any use of math or actual science to determine speed.
Same reason the earth doesn't explode when DBZ characters fight on it.
When did he do this?
Magneto has never created black holes. He created a wormhole, which is completely different. You're blatantly lying now.
Speed feats are meaningless if you don't accept that they can be quantified. You judge them only on superficial appearance and art style.
I'll tell you what, you should read a manga called Rurouni Kenshin. It is actually a really good manga, you'll enjoy it. It's also easy to find. In it, the characters do all the stuff you're always going on about, they blur, they make afterimages, they disappear from people's vision, all of that stuff. But the fastest characters in that series are barely above the speed of sound, and they're basically just human swordsmen. All of that stuff is not proof of speed.
Superman has taken on people way more powerful than anyone Goku has taken on.
Once, and I already explained the mitigating circumstances.
No he doesn't.
Even though Superman is faster (based on actual quantifiable feats, not blurry art bullshit), stronger, more durable, more intelligent, more precise, can survive in space, and has more versatile powers?
Superman would flick Goku's head off with his pinky finger.
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Last edited by Endless Mike on Sep 20th, 2010 at 03:10 PM
No. Superman hasn't shown a consistent weakness to every item Mr. Mxyzptlk has conjured.
I still don't understand why you choose to use confusing and contradictory terminology. It only serves to prolong debates.
The sun doesn't nourish Superman in that manner. The more sunlight he's exposed to the more durable and resistant he becomes. There's a reason for why the supernova came from a yellow sun.
List the amount of times Superman (from earth 0) has survived supernovae , that you could reference.
Once again, how many occurrences could you reference?
The why would you assault his capabilities of said fields.
I was under the impression that this was an open forum, were you're allowed to respond and discuss to whatever is posted.
I responded to all of this before but my computer went down so I will respond to the rest of this later but its just one thing that I want to point out (that I already posted, damn I hate my computer).
The Wonder Woman and Superman fight.
Its not a light speed showing. Here we have Superman flying Wonder Woman to the sun, fighting her the entire way... look at the bottom right hand side... Max Lord states... "INITIATE tracking on Alpha one and Alpha two".
So basically the fight all the way to the sun, we really dont have a time on how long it took them to get there and how long that part of the fight lasted.
Then we have scene two, they are still fighting (for no telling how long) and then we have Max Lord yet again at the bottom right saying "Visual required, begin recording", in the next panel, Superman is punching Wonder Woman to the planet. With that said, the time of the fight started when Wonder Woman hit the planet.
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Sep 17th, 2010 07:28 AM
I'm not even going to respond to the rest of your posts because I know you are joking with the rest of your comments... This is hilarious.
