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A Stupid Argument
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Tzeentch
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
Punisher isn't a hero; he's an anti-hero. there's a massive gilf between the two imo.


I feel like you're kinda dodging there lol. There's no such thing as an actual anti-hero. It's a literary term used to describe a relationship between different characters, not something that can be found in real life. You're either a hero, or you're not.


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Old Post Aug 16th, 2010 04:26 PM
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roughrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by BUSTER1
Castle doesn't kill people because he enjoys it. Taking out criminals is a mission for him, to stop them hurting innocents-like his family.


And yet for all the thousands of criminals he's killed, thousands more pop up to replace them. There's no proof that Frank's method is any better than a hero who doesn't kill to get the job done.


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Old Post Aug 16th, 2010 06:51 PM
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Scythe
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Deadline
Thats a pretty terrible comparison anyway. As far as I can remember that android was never part of the FF.


While true, I suppose I'm used to movies crapping all over established continuity.


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Old Post Aug 16th, 2010 10:32 PM
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GGS
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Some of the situations are unrealistic though, like how two people fall off a building but bats always manages to save them both and also without terminal velocity kicking in.

He is only human supposedly.......

Last edited by GGS on Aug 18th, 2010 at 10:44 PM

Old Post Aug 18th, 2010 10:39 PM
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-Pr-
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I feel like you're kinda dodging there lol. There's no such thing as an actual anti-hero. It's a literary term used to describe a relationship between different characters, not something that can be found in real life. You're either a hero, or you're not.


I disagree, but for the sake of argument, if Batman killed, he wouldn't technically be a superhero.


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Old Post Aug 18th, 2010 10:50 PM
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Omega Vision
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I'm not really following the jump in logic there. Are police officers villains for killing people? Just because there is no government patting you on the back every time you kill someone who was in the process of trying to kill other people him/herself doesn't make you a villain.

Yes. Police officers who kill when a non-lethal alternative can be reached are villains. How many policemen do you know who have actually killed someone? Odds are that less than one in ten have and of those most probably don't feel terribly good about it.


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Last edited by Omega Vision on Aug 18th, 2010 at 11:27 PM

Old Post Aug 18th, 2010 11:25 PM
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spidermanrocks
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Re: Re: A Stupid Argument

quote: (post)
Originally posted by WanderingDroid
The gun use by Batman in the early stories is a dead beaten horse already. The gun argument is for n00bs. If you want Batman to kill then just stick to Watchmen and you'll love Rorschach


I don't want him to kill. In my post, I was explaining why the first year of Batman's publication history is NOT a valid excuse for him to kill. Were you paying attention while reading my post?

Old Post Aug 19th, 2010 01:57 AM
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Deadline
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
I disagree, but for the sake of argument, if Batman killed, he wouldn't technically be a superhero.


Wolverine isn't a superhero? Moon Knight isn't a superhero?


quote: (post)
Originally posted by spidermanrocks
I don't want him to kill. In my post, I was explaining why the first year of Batman's publication history is NOT a valid excuse for him to kill. Were you paying attention while reading my post?


Yea we were and android torch was never part of the FF anyway.


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Old Post Aug 19th, 2010 02:05 PM
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-Pr-
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Deadline
Wolverine isn't a superhero? Moon Knight isn't a superhero?




Yea we were and android torch was never part of the FF anyway.


i meant to say "murder" not "kill" as there's a difference imo.

and Wolverine again would be an "anti-hero" imo.


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Old Post Aug 20th, 2010 10:12 PM
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Ridley_Prime
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Or just a rebel without a cause.


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Old Post Aug 20th, 2010 10:32 PM
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Deadline
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
i meant to say "murder" not "kill" as there's a difference imo.

and Wolverine again would be an "anti-hero" imo.


Yea that pretty much sums it up if. If Wolverine is an anti-hero to you thats fine but hes a superhero to a whole load of people and is described as one.


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Old Post Aug 21st, 2010 09:59 AM
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Tzeentch
#gottem

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Yes. Police officers who kill when a non-lethal alternative can be reached are villains. How many policemen do you know who have actually killed someone? Odds are that less than one in ten have and of those most probably don't feel terribly good about it.


That's not even fully true. A police officer is expected to shoot a murderer that is fleeing a crime, not attacking anybody, if he possesses the means to kill someone again. But what does that have to do with what I said? I said a police officer who kills someone who is in the process of trying to kill someone else is not a villain. Hell, I am a security guard, but legally if someone pulls out a gun I can draw my own and blow their head off without a second thought and I'm fine. Would doing so make me a villain because instead of fist fighting them and taking them to jail I just shot them?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
I disagree, but for the sake of argument, if Batman killed, he wouldn't technically be a superhero.


Okay. So in your mind, if someone kills people they are not a hero. Is that correct, or am I over-generalizing your statement?


EDIT- I've realized that this is ultimately an act futility, because when it comes down to it the question is "What contitutes as a hero and what constitues as a villain". If something thinks that killing is always wrong unless it's a last resort, then yeah to them Batman killing the Joker to prevent him from killing other people would still be wrong. To someone like myself who thinks murder can be justified, Batman killing the joker to save lives is heroic. To me, I think allowing the Joker to go to jail knowing that he's going to break out and kill people, some times even acknowledging it out loud, is villainous and cowardly in itself. The only way I could kind of forgive Batman is if he went to the families of every single guard Joker has ever killed whilst escaping from Arkham, and ask the family for their forgiveness, and to explain to them that he could have ultimately prevented the Joker from killing their father/husband/wife/daughter/son, but didn't because it "is against his moral code". Unfortunately, he doesn't do that, so in my eyes he's a villain and a coward. However morality isn't something that you can really argue as if it were a fact.


__________________

"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."

Last edited by Tzeentch on Aug 21st, 2010 at 10:33 AM

Old Post Aug 21st, 2010 10:20 AM
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Tzeentch
#gottem

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Location: Morgan's Maxim

edit


__________________

"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."

Last edited by Tzeentch on Aug 21st, 2010 at 10:28 AM

Old Post Aug 21st, 2010 10:21 AM
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Deadline
Senior Member

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican

Okay. So in your mind, if someone kills people they are not a hero. Is that correct, or am I over-generalizing your statement?


Yea thats what it sounded like to me.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican

EDIT- I've realized that this is ultimately an act futility, because when it comes down to it the question is "What contitutes as a hero and what constitues as a villain". If something thinks that killing is always wrong unless it's a last resort, then yeah to them Batman killing the Joker to prevent him from killing other people would still be wrong. To someone like myself who thinks murder can be justified, Batman killing the joker to save lives is heroic. To me, I think allowing the Joker to go to jail knowing that he's going to break out and kill people, some times even acknowledging it out loud, is villainous and cowardly in itself. The only way I could kind of forgive Batman is if he went to the families of every single guard Joker has ever killed whilst escaping from Arkham, and ask the family for their forgiveness, and to explain to them that he could have ultimately prevented the Joker from killing their father/husband/wife/daughter/son, but didn't because it "is against his moral code". Unfortunately, he doesn't do that, so in my eyes he's a villain and a coward. However morality isn't something that you can really argue as if it were a fact.


A lot of people don't actually understand is that the reason why he does that is because its a comicbook and writers have to invent reasons for keeping villains alive. The problem is people start taking comicbook logic as real and don't understand its a plot device.


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Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
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Old Post Aug 21st, 2010 12:54 PM
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Tzeentch
#gottem

Gender: Male
Location: Morgan's Maxim

Yeah I've noticed it a lot as well. Like, will people will try to justify the things that happen. There's no shame in admitting that it's just fail comic book logic for why they do the things they do.

I don't necessarily think that that's what happening in this discussion, plus talking about comic book logic is like telling a Wrestling fan that pro-wrestling is fake, lol. Kind of comes off condescending, lol.


__________________

"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."

Old Post Aug 21st, 2010 01:31 PM
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-Pr-
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Deadline
Yea that pretty much sums it up if. If Wolverine is an anti-hero to you thats fine but hes a superhero to a whole load of people and is described as one.


i wonder what he would say himself if you asked him.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Okay. So in your mind, if someone kills people they are not a hero. Is that correct, or am I over-generalizing your statement?


the latter. even superman has killed people.

quote:
EDIT- I've realized that this is ultimately an act futility, because when it comes down to it the question is "What contitutes as a hero and what constitues as a villain". If something thinks that killing is always wrong unless it's a last resort, then yeah to them Batman killing the Joker to prevent him from killing other people would still be wrong. To someone like myself who thinks murder can be justified, Batman killing the joker to save lives is heroic. To me, I think allowing the Joker to go to jail knowing that he's going to break out and kill people, some times even acknowledging it out loud, is villainous and cowardly in itself. The only way I could kind of forgive Batman is if he went to the families of every single guard Joker has ever killed whilst escaping from Arkham, and ask the family for their forgiveness, and to explain to them that he could have ultimately prevented the Joker from killing their father/husband/wife/daughter/son, but didn't because it "is against his moral code". Unfortunately, he doesn't do that, so in my eyes he's a villain and a coward. However morality isn't something that you can really argue as if it were a fact.


batman has been called on it before, and he's explained why he doesn't kill.

and the fact of the matter is that for all the people joker has killed, batman has saved more people being on the streets and in the JLA than the Joker has killled.


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Old Post Aug 21st, 2010 07:08 PM
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Deadline
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
i wonder what he would say himself if you asked him.


I wonder what the writers would say or marvel would say if you asked them. No he probably wouldn't describe himself as a super hero but that doesn't change anything.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-


batman has been called on it before, and he's explained why he doesn't kill.



Its a comicbook. The only argument that makes sense is that if he kills he will go nuts.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-

and the fact of the matter is that for all the people joker has killed, batman has saved more people being on the streets and in the JLA than the Joker has killled.


Don't know how you worked that out more people have been killed because Batman won't take Joker out. He kills non-humans, like I said before vampire are sentinet. According to your logic its ok to kill sentient beings but not humans.


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Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr

Old Post Aug 21st, 2010 08:13 PM
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-Pr-
...

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Deadline
I wonder what the writers would say or marvel would say if you asked them. No he probably wouldn't describe himself as a super hero but that doesn't change anything.


yes, i wonder what the writers would say.

quote:
Its a comicbook. The only argument that makes sense is that if he kills he will go nuts.


to you.

quote:
Don't know how you worked that out more people have been killed because Batman won't take Joker out. He kills non-humans, like I said before vampire are sentinet. According to your logic its ok to kill sentient beings but not humans.


eh, no. it's actual fact. batman was a key party of saving the multiverse. batman with the jla has saved millions of people both directly and indirectly.

him killing joker removes any chance of doing it in the fuiture.


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Old Post Aug 21st, 2010 08:20 PM
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Deadline
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
yes, i wonder what the writers would say.


Yes and I'm pretty sure some of them would consider him to be a superhero. Anyway my point is its purely subjective with Punisher its more clear cut.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-

to you.


Thats just a cop out. Sometimes it really is a matter of opinion but in some cases somebody can't make a coherent argument and therefore state its a matter of opinion.

No its doesn't make sense especially when he kills other sentinet lifeforms its a comicbook Pr and its a plot device. He tried to kill Darkseid.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-

eh, no. it's actual fact. batman was a key party of saving the multiverse. batman with the jla has saved millions of people both directly and indirectly.


Um the point I'm making is because Joker isn't dead more people have been killed. My point isn't that he hasn't saved alot of lives.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-

him killing joker removes any chance of doing it in the fuiture.


Wasn't that sort of my point? Hes obvoulsy going to kill again if you send him to Arkham.


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Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr

Last edited by Deadline on Aug 21st, 2010 at 08:32 PM

Old Post Aug 21st, 2010 08:29 PM
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-Pr-
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Deadline
Yes and I'm pretty sure some of them would consider him to be a superhero. Anyway my point is its purely subjective with Punisher its more clear cut.


i never said they wouldn't nor shouldn't. i just said what i believe.

quote:
Thats just a cop out. Sometimes it really is a matter of opinion but in some cases somebody can't make a coherent argument and therefore state its a matter of opinion.

No its doesn't make sense especially when he kills other sentinet lifeforms its a comicbook Pr and its a plot device. He tried to kill Darkseid.


it isn't a cop out. batman is written to be a complex, lifelike character. he shouldn't just decide to start killing one day.

batman sees differences between beings. he's stated as such.

quote:
Um the point I'm making is because Joker isn't dead more people have been killed. My point isn't that he hasn't saved alot of lives.


batman has saved more lives than joker has taken, both directly and indirectly.

quote:
Wasn't that sort of my point? Hes obvoulsy going to kill again if you send him to Arkham.


no, because i'm talking about Batman, not Joker.


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Old Post Aug 21st, 2010 08:38 PM
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