This is what I'm talking about though. If you are truly doing live sparring, you have rules just like sport fighting. Why draw battle lines just because some guys decided to get into competition?
Historically, no it does not. Still, I've seen several kung fu schools offering belt ranks. Is it an insult to kung fu that they do that? Possibly. It still happens, and my statement stands.
Nice. An attempt to paint me as a hater of "traditional" martial arts without actually knowing my history with martial arts or my actual preferences. It's laughable and irrelevant. If you're just a hardcore fan of rigid styles with questionable at best efficiency, just say so.
You see? Pretextual insults get us nowhere. You're also severely understating the years of training fighters must go through to master these so called "ring styles." Not to mention, calling it cagefighting is just like calling all kung fu styles wing chun.
There is no magic number, but there are several multi-faceted fighters emerging now. Georges St Pierre has outstruck kickboxers, outwrestled wrestlers, and outplayed jujitsu experts. Silva, Shogun, Machida, Fedor, BJ, and other fighters have similar feats. The notion of being average at many areas fades while those who excel at all areas emerge. We have entered the age of the "complete" fighter honestly.
You mentioned certain things ending fights quickly, which I rightfully refuted. There are several things wrong with you slightly altered points, but a few a key.
Breaking the fingers of a trained, world class fighter is nigh impossibilty unless you are a train, world class fighter yourself. Not to mention, these same fights also have access to joint manipulation when rules are removed. Compounded with their other abilities, no shaolin monk movie magic BS is countering that fact.
I make KO's sound exactly like what they are. They are examples of things that end fights quickly and are part of several fighters repetoire.
Again, gouging the eye of a train fighter is incredibly difficult. He is more likely to do it the "traditional too deadly for the universe fighter" than the other way around in fact. Are you more afraid of the wrestler who can actually hold you down while he gauges your eyes because you decided to take tippy tap point sparring, or are you afraid of live action role playing kid who got his orange belt practicing eye gouges from pointless stances three times a week. Obviously, I intend a bit of humor in posts. No use getting so serious, but you get the point
You're welcome to believe that, but I wouldn't count Machida out against 6-7 monks with no proven fighting abilities whatsoever.
I'm always watching.
Last edited by StyleTime on Aug 22nd, 2010 at 12:26 AM
Because they're not, and he didn't need to mention those two sports loosely based on Karate and Kung Fu. FCK and Sanshou were both developed in the 20th century, long after Karate and Kung Fu were established as systems of combat.
And FYI: Sanshou isn't a form of Kung Fu. It's a fusion martial art that borrows elements from several different Chinese martial arts, and Kung Fu is just one of them.
Sparring is an exercise meant for learning, not pummeling each other for ratings and endorsement deals.
Yes, it would be an insult to it. And those Kung Fu "schools" you've been to are McDojo's. They were heavily commercialized and Westernized businesses designed to keep kids busy when the little league seasons are over. True Kung Fu doesn't and has never had belts.
I currently do Praying Mantis and Karambit Machan, a form of Indonesian knife-fighting. They're definitely not McDojo's and the second they even start to resemble one, is when I'll stop attending.
I like all martial arts as long as they stay true to themselves. I'm not a big fan of creating a system that deliberately cherry-picks certain things from various styles just to create a spectator sport.
The only combat sports I really like watching are ones that involve a weapon, like fencing.
Or maybe those kickboxers, wrestlers and Jiujitsu "experts" were subpar? Still, those cage-fighters you mentioned aren't equally skilled in all of their facets of fighting. They're always better at one, than the others (striking, grappling, or what-have-you).
The age of the "complete" fighter? Gimmie a break... Those MMA marketers and advertisers must really be good to have you saying that.
What do you mean "no proven fighting abilities"? How about the fact that they are Shaolin Monks. Not anyone can just waltz into the Shaolin Temple and be like "Hey, I wanna join you guys". Granted they're not comic-book superheroes, but like Navy SEALs, they're damn good at what they do.
Well for one thing I don't see any certain thing that I pointed out at all, I was speaking as in the illegal attacks in general. You're welcome to point out any real specific thing I said.
The finger breaking is something sport fighters won't pay much or any attention to though, they are too use to being open to things like that cause they don't have to worry about it. It's like having a Muay Thai stance in a real fight, that is an invite for a kick to the balls. I'm sorry but I didn't get the point of pointing out access to the illegal moves when the rules are removed
BTW I wasn't arguing for the monks in the first place with these moves, just the watering down on martial art techniques designed for real fights.
Put it this way, unless you're facing someone with a glass jaw or you're just throwing punches like Tyson KO's aren't going to COME quickly. Of course they end a fight quickly it is a Knock Out, but some people can just take blows over and over and over and keep going without never getting KO'd. It is going to end a fight as quickly as a throat chop cause it is something you're going to have to work for, unless like I said you're fighting glass jaw, it is more of a varying thing.
The wrestler but I still don't see where you're going with this
I wouldn't count him out against 1, 2 would still be a loss. Those guys' daily routine is comprised of train, meditate, and worship. I'm quite sure they work on their martial arts more than most, probably all mma fighters train.
The point is still valid. You refer to ratings and endorsement deals as if it demeans any similarities. It doesn't.
Cool. We agree. It doesn't change what I said.
Fighters must adhere to the ruleset, but it does not change the fact that the fighter is from "x" style. If you don't like MMA, that is your prerogative; however, this rhetoric of yours borders on absurdity at this point.
No, they weren't subpar. This is based on verified records. We see their abilities. You're just speculating now.
Again, these are based on facts. I refer to them as complete because that is what they are. We can see this. We can verify this. You operate on personal conjecture and it has no place in a discussion such as this. If you want to believe the opposite, fine; still, you must realize how little merit this method has in legitimate discussion.
I mean exactly what I stated. We can't verify any real fighting ability from these monks. Navy SEALs actually have proven combat abilities and engage in combat regularly; it is rediculous to compare a shaolin monk to that.
Again, this is the same logic that built the lies around Bruce Lee. Theory fighting at its finest.
I spoke in general there.
That makes little sense. Most of the systems employed by the fighters employ small joint manipulation and you still fail to account for places that actually allow rediculous stuff like that. In a fight, you have to actually break the fingers. How do you that if you don't have the basic knowledge an MMA fighter has? He has a lot more to stop that from ever occuring than the other way around. Also, there are Muay Thai competitions that allow groin shots. Surprise, surprise. The stances are identical to standard Muay Thai barring the clinchwork. An effective style is an effective style.
There is watering down of techniques, but you miss one thing. It occurs in these so called TMA schools. Most fighters still train those techniques which may be banned in a particular competition. In fact, many of them have competed in true Vale Tudo environments where anything goes.
If you don't have the requisite skills to pull these "oh so deadly techniques", you won't get them off. A trained sport fighter will have a far easier time executing these techniques than the guys who sit safely at their dojo, hiding behind the excuse that they are "too deadly" to compete.
Yes, they train and train and still have no proven combat ability. You're giving credit where it is not deserved. Again, you are allowed to believe what you want; however, you are debating against facts here.
I'm always watching.
Last edited by StyleTime on Aug 22nd, 2010 at 03:52 AM
I don't know which MMA and Muay Thai organizations you're referring to that allow those moves, but those guys aren't obviously held back by the same rules that the more popular organizations are held back by and would train for usage and avoiding those moves.
Depends on your teacher if you ask me, on the watering down parts, but now most MMA fighters do MMA style gyms that train multiple martial arts and mma training or they stick with their own personal trainers or they are Roy Nelson and practice in their basement alone. Only ones that come to mind that I would know for a fact would have done True Vale Tudo is the Gracie family.
Not always, the only real advantage I would say the sport fighter has is combat experience, he is more than likely less trained on the super deadly technique than the guy at the dojo since his focus is elsewhere in martial arts. The Dojo guy can probably pull it off better but he may not be able to set it up better considering the little experience.
Well kinda like the Navy SEAL thing you guys are mentioning, I have never heard a story from people of any military branch saying they had to use whatever H2H skills they learned. Most of the stories I've seen or personally heard were using teamwork mainly in close quarters, wasn't a need for fighting someone when you or your squad mates behind you can shoot him. They are basically in the same boat as monks when it comes to martial arts, except for the amount of training and emphasis in it.
Ok. Looks like we're roughly on the same page in all honesty. I just highlighted that fighters hold back in a ruleset, but don't necessarily neglect their art during training.
I can agree with that somewhat. Most pro fighters may not train like....720 hook kicks, but it's less watering a style down than dojos who only point spar.
I do still disagree here. The sport fighter has every advantage. He's more conditioned, more skilled, better fundamentals, better reflexes, and trains more effective techniques. For example, pro fighters have better head movement than your average dojo dude. These fighters effectively move their entire heads out of the way of incoming strikes; to hit a target as small as their eyes in combat is unlikely. Even training such techniques would be difficult; eye gouging in training would leave students out of commission often and would probably cause many to quit honestly.
I referred to general combat effectiveness of the Navy SEALS. I didn't know if he meant specifically hand to hand.
In any case, we quickly approach the point of agreement here; I offer this as the intersection of our views. Two equally skilled fighters face off without rules, but one has a proven record of beating high level opponents with these "deadly" techniques. I would probably give him the advantage. That may be what you meant, but it came off as something else.
I would like to clear some aspects in this discussion.
First, the idea of "martial art". A martial art is nothing more then a fighting system that allows to anyone to physically defeat other person or defend oneself in REAL LIFE situations. So as you can understand, this implies that a martial artist is someone who is training himself in a fighting system that will increase is chances of winning a fight.
Now, while this concept seems rather simple, it also tells what should be the major concept of any martial art: to create a fighting system effective in REAL LIFE situations. In fact, what kind of martial art can call himself a true martial art if isn't tested in real fights?
Obviously, this brings a great problem to so many "masters" who have never enter in a real fight.
Reminds some videos around the youtube where you see a undefeated kiai master with over 500 wins (or so he said) being beat by a MMA figher with a couple punches in the face (rather pathetically actually) or the kung fu fighter who got his arm broke by a kimura in less then 30 seconds.
So, what's the problem with this guys? They didn't build their art in real fights, they don't really test if their techniques are really useful or just a "show off" movement, and that's why I believe any true fighter show have try MMA, because honestly, if a kung fu master can't beat a MMA fighter in the ring, he can't do it in real life situations.
I also would like to remind everybody, as it was already said, that in the begining of UFC everything was allowed, you can't go more as a street fight as that, yet, guys like royce gracie beat bigger guys trying to grab his groin and bite him, only to have his arm broke in the end with a armbar. Yeah, and that's one of the problems with low blows, they hurt but they also show lack of fighting skill, because if one goes to this aproach, he probably doesn't know to fight at all, and the result will probably be a pissed fighter who will seriously injury you as a result.
So all this "deadly techniques" are probably as much as not usable or just dirty fighting of people who have never faced a true fighter and are afraid to do so.
__________________ I have never let my schooling interfere with my education
Last edited by Darth Angel on Aug 22nd, 2010 at 08:43 PM
What rhetoric? Hybrid/fusion MA's do cherry-pick from others, that's why they're called fusions and hybrids. The founders of these more recent styles take what they like from a certain already established martial art, and discard what they don't like in an arbitrary manner. Well, maybe not 'arbitrary', but what they personally deem "unnecessary".
Sanshou, Kajunkembo, Americano, Modern Arnis, Krav Maga and so on. This applies to all fusion MA's.
How are they "complete"? GSP is good at striking, grappling and submissions, but he's still better at one of those than the other three. I believe he comes from a Karate background, so hard hitting is his bread and butter. He's good at his chosen profession, I'll give him that.
Look at history. The Shaolin Monks did essentially the same thing as the Knights Templar: religious warriors who sheparded pilgrims and travelers from bandits and other bad guys. And unlike the Templars, they're still around. Those nasty weapons they made weren't toys.
They may be a living antique, but they're still fine fighters. Our 'Jedi', you might say.
(Fun fact: Jedi attire, teachings and fencing are all partly based on those of the Shaolin Monks.)
What "lies"? You're saying he wasn't a good figher? That vato actually promoted mixing martial arts before it was cool. At the beginning of Enter the Dragon he's wearing MMA gloves. He even founded a fusion martial art: Jeet Kun Do.
I've seen those videos you described, and other similar ones where some self-proclaimed "Master" of something gets his ass handed to him by an amature cage-fighter, or somebody with only basic martial arts training. Those guys are either liars and/or come from questionable dojos. McDojo's are usually opened by a guy who took a martial art for a couple years, bought a black belt off the internet, makes up some story about being taught "secret" moves in remote parts of Asia and then starts calling himself a Master. And sadly, Master Certifications are pretty easy to forge. But there's very few genuine Karate and Kung Fu Masters in North America. One of the conditions of the oath a Sifu takes is not not to fight for the entertainment of others, this is another way to tell those guys are lying.
Last edited by Quiero Mota on Aug 23rd, 2010 at 04:10 AM
I agree with you and a lot of other people that the image of Bruce Lee is blown up to a larger-than-life myth, to the point of being superhuman. But that still doesn't take aways his many accomplishments and his works over his short life. Not only was he an entertainer, Bruce Lee was historically significant in that he brought martial arts to the forefront and made it a household word. Nowadays, you can look up martial arts in the yellow pages of any phone-book. But before the 1950's, martial arts in America were limited to ethnic enclaves, and they weren't at all businesses. They were underground organizations, that bordered on being cults. He really butted heads with the Kung Fu community in Oakland, because they didn't like him teaching non-Chinese people. In fact, I read an article in Black Belt a while back, in which the guy argued that if Bruce Lee never existed, there probably would be no fighting video games. He says this is because so many of the game characters are based on him (looks, stances, moves, sound FX), and because he popularized martial arts as a whole.
It seemed like you meant a hybrid style is automatically ineffective. I apologize if you didn't, but that's how it sounded.
Martial arts are constantly evolving, and hybrid styles are just one of the evolutions honestly. We can take virtually any style and identify its effective moves and its less effective moves. If you took kickboxing, would you rely on a tornado kick instead of your roundhouse? Would you take a wind up punch over a jab if you were a boxer? I'm sure you can find some techniques within your own style you don't employ. Making a style that consists of the best parts of other styles doesn's strike me as a bad thing.
GSP was indeed a kyokushin karateka before entering MMA. He still wears his gi to fights and says he is as karate fighter first and foremost. Initially, he was a striker as you said, but he's evolved greatly since those days. He has arguably the best wrestling in all of MMA currently; he was even asked to join his country's Olympic wrestling team. He has his black belt in jujitsu and has submitted or outplayed any grappler thrown at him.
I'm not saying he's invincible when I say "complete." I mean he excels at all ranges of unarmed combat at this point, even if he started out as a karate guy. That is what I mean by "complete."
The problem is, we can't really verify the skills of modern day monks. In all honesty, we can't verify the skills of those in the past. I'm not saying they weren't fighters, but you know as well as I do that history has built up its fair share of myths. If we go by evidence, Lyoto Machida or GSP should absolutely rock a monk, even if they stick strictly to their karate techniques.
I remember hearing that the "Force" concept was based on Buddhism as well. I'm no Star Wars expert though.
I'm saying he lacks verification for like 9/10 of his exploits. As for him promoting "MMA before it was cool", this is why I actually hate the "mixed martial arts" name. It implies that this is something new. Even before Lee, people crosstrained in other styles. Mas Oyama, for example, was also a high ranking judoka. It was actually pretty common in Japan from what I understand to take the karate/judo package.
Out of curiosity, how do you feel about Jeet Kune Do? I noticed you tend to speak poorly of hybrid styles in general. Bruce certainly discarded kung fu techniques he didn't like, and got hated by some for it.
I'm pretty sure karate was fairly popular in America by the time Lee arrived. Lee's image helped popularize some things, but it may have done more harm than good. A lot of a bullshido arose in his wake.
His biggest accomplishment was probably fight choreography. Before him, American movies had pretty shitty fight scenes. As for the video games, fighting game characters are frequently based on martial arts stereotypes. The screaming Bruce Lee wannabe, the ninja, the loudmouthed American wrestler, the ******* vale tudo fighter, old kung fu master, huge russian grappler, military commando, the list goes on. Bruce is just one of many, and I think that guy gave him a little too much credit there.
I'm always watching.
Last edited by StyleTime on Aug 24th, 2010 at 02:54 AM
No, I don't think that. They should evolve to adapt to the times. Krav Maga has certain moves and techniques for when someone is holding a gun to your head. This is martial arts evolution at its finest, since guns weren't around when most MA's were developed.
What makes a move "less" effective with in its own style? Certain moves were made for specific situations. The right tool for the right job.
Then by that definition, I guess he would be a complete fighter. Did he ever decide to wrestle for Canada? If not, why?
I wonder how he is as a fencer. After all, the kendo stick and tonfa are both part of Kyokushin training.
The Force is more based on Eastern panentheism (ie: "Everything is God).
I don't really have anything against hybrid martial arts. A lot of later Kung Fu styles are hybrids, like Southern Praying Mantis and Hung-gar (a combination of Tiger and Crane). A lot of foreign interpretations are also hybrids, like Sambo (Russian judo) and Tang Soo Do (Korean wushu). These borrowed arts have been adapted to local variants; nothing wrong with that.
The only one flaw I see in more modern hyrbids (such as Jeet Kune Do and Kajunkembo) is that they teach their students to be a jack-of-all-trades, but a master of none. JKD fighters are good at punching, kicking, trapping and grappling, but they really don't excel in any one category. It's moderation, not specialization. But then again, that's Jeet Kune Do philosophy.
Karate and judo were both brought back by WW2 servicemen, but it took kung fu longer to become well-known.
Would fighting video games be the same without Bruce Lee, though? Many martial art stereotypes also appeared in his movies. Those archetypes got their start in 70's martial art cinema, which was Lee's era.
Last edited by Quiero Mota on Aug 24th, 2010 at 09:18 AM
Gender: Unspecified Location: With Cinderella and the 9 Dwarves
I'd assume most MMA fighters are well trained and athletic, so they would likely be good in a fight either way, however I agree that MMA doesn't necessarily determine the best fighter in a real life situation.
Now I don't know exactly, but I'd assume that a very well trained Krav Maga practitioner or a MCMAP master would likely beat and kill a similarly trained MMA fighter, as obviously many of the techniques the MMA fighter uses is very much focussed on winning within the rules of the game.
Several things would go into an "effective" definition, but certain moves are noticeably less efficient than others. I, again, mention tornado kicks. Or the 540 the monk in your video uses.
Last I heard, he is still undecided. Dividing time between that and MMA may work against him. A Canadian coach said these guys prepared 8-10 years before trying out, and GSP won't get any special treatment. A 2008 wrestler (Matt Gentry) commended GSP's great blast doubles and other takedowns, but wrestling in a pure wrestling environment differs from MMA or any other venue honestly. It'd do wonders for Dana White if GSP succeeds though. Imagine the marketing for "GSP, The Olympian".
Regardless, GSP is an extremely rare breed of fighter. It wouldn't surprise me if he makes it.
I've never seen him use weapons, so I honestly don't know.
Firstly, that was a beautiful 540 at 1:10 by the shaolin dude; however, I think this was point sparring. The Tae Kwon Do jin definitely had a point sparring stance: his hands are by his waist and he's bouncing on the balls of his feet.
Well, I am about do some theory fighting here. Hybrid styles are supposed to build fighters who actually excel at multiple areas. Unfortunately, it just doesn't always pan out that way. Not everyone can be GSP in reality.
I'll agree to that.
They wouldn't be the same in the literal sense, of course. A few character designs would change or dissappear altogether, but the games wouldn't differ all that much as a product.
What most people don't realize, is that these military styles are utterly indistinguishable from MMA. The only thing an MMA fighter has to do to become "deadly" is well....not stop choking his opponent.
Check out this video of military melee training from the Pentagon.
Gender: Unspecified Location: With Cinderella and the 9 Dwarves
I wouldn't say so, unless you modify it a bit. If you say it's the best gauge we in western nations have within legal limits, then sure, count me in.
Lol, well, you are right it's not what I said . I'm with you for the most part in thinking MMA isn't bullshit. And that it obviously shows prowess. Perhaps we disagree on some issues, as I do think that a fight to the death is different to what we see in MMA, but I would not deny that the techniques they use are useful in real fights.
I do think that a real fight wouldn't necessarily go down like most MMA fights do, but to claim it is pointless and totally removed from any reality is absurd to me.
Though the 1 guy beat up 7 Shaolin Monks (make that 7 petty thugs for all I care) at once thing someone mentioned...I mean, c'mon
I'd say so. The organizations in the east are nearly identical to ours and "street fight" footage between high level combatants is hard to come by. You may have had something else in mind though.
I can agree here. I doubt most fighters would engage in a feeling out process in a "real" combat scenario. Strategies would change as well, etc.
I said I wouldn't be surprised. Obviously, any fighter is disadvantaged against multiple people. It's just that Machida could potentially one hit KO each guy. It may not be likely, but it is possible. The average person is surprisingly ineffective in a fight. Even against a group, a boxer was able to this.
I don't want to turn this into, "Find one crazy video that supports what you said", but I do think it is food for thought. Those guys had like 0 concept of spacing, hands down, probably shitty taste in music.
Overall, I can see your stance though.
I'm always watching.
Last edited by StyleTime on Aug 28th, 2010 at 06:03 AM
Gender: Unspecified Location: With Cinderella and the 9 Dwarves
Well, I was mostly thinking that you could potentially just have fights to the death. That would give you a good idea, probably happens in some parts of the world, too. But that's why I said, it's a pretty good gauge within western legal limits (I usually count Japan as "Western")
I agree that most normal people are rather ineffective, however if you talk about 7 people who fight often or are trained very well (even if in a somewhat ineffective style) it seems very unlikely that one fighter could beat them all, at least to me.