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"Why MMA Fails"
Started by: Quiero Mota

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The Nuul
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WTF? We are not talking about bouncers in here.

Monks and MA teachers etc... do not fight for real. MMA fighters do.


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Old Post Mar 5th, 2011 09:42 PM
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Quiero Mota

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by batdude123





Take a Shaolin Monk and put him up against somebody like Shogun, and he would get thoroughly embarrassed.


What the f**k? Dame un respiro, guey...

You went and specifically found two videos with guys who were obviously frauds and grifters. And notice how they weren't even monks; one was American and the other was Japanese. Furthermore, they both do Karate, and Chi, Qi Gong and the Dim-mak (death touch) are all specifically Shaolin disciplines. And I knew the first video was a failure the moment they mentioned that walking joke George Dillman. The George Dillman International Schools is actually an entire chain of McDojos, there's even one a couple miles from my house. Dillman, who does Americanized Kenpo Karate, was the one who first coined the concept of the "no-touch knock-out" back in the 70's, and has never once agreed to have it tested scientifically. Him and all his schools are cons.

So you really dropped the ball with those two attempted counter-examples.

In any event, THIS is the video I was reffering to:



^That guy is a true monk and the real deal. Shogun's kicks would bounce off him like raindrops.


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Old Post Mar 5th, 2011 11:20 PM
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batdude123
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Yes, I've seen numerous examples of people doing the exact same things as the guy above. Three things:

1. The original point still stands. The bouncers are much stronger.

2. They never do any tests on the subject's head. I've seen dozens of examples of guys getting smashed with wood and metal on their abdomen, arms, back, etc, but never in the head. Frankly there's no evidence they wouldn't get KO'd. It's an entirely different matter when you're dealing with the brain.

3. Those guys have no actual combat experience. It's all theory and practice. That's no substitute for what Shogun does. If it took him longer than a minute to dispatch one of those guys, I'd be shocked.


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Old Post Mar 6th, 2011 12:45 AM
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Quiero Mota

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by batdude123
1. The original point still stands. The bouncers are much stronger.


Big deal. Just because they can bench press a lot, doesn't mean they can take a blade to the neck. Or even win a fight. Besides, are the vast majority of bouncers trained in anything...or are they just hired because they're big and tall? Just something to think about.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by batdude123
2. They never do any tests on the subject's head. I've seen dozens of examples of guys getting smashed with wood and metal on their abdomen, arms, back, etc, but never in the head. Frankly there's no evidence they wouldn't get KO'd. It's an entirely different matter when you're dealing with the brain.


Because the brain is more sensitive than the torso (that's common knowledge). Qi Gong is called Iron Shirt for a reason, its not "Iron Helmet". Besides, he took a spear to the throat with 2,900 PSI; thats pretty impressive and incredible. Could some random bouncer do that? I doubt it.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by batdude123
3. Those guys have no actual combat experience. It's all theory and practice. That's no substitute for what Shogun does. If it took him longer than a minute to dispatch one of those guys, I'd be shocked.


Who's "those guys"? Are we generalizing? I don't know Master Huang personally; maybe he's been in scraps, maybe not. I doubt he'd be a pushover in a real fight. Either way he demonstrated that his neck is essentially impervious to a blade with nearly a ton and 1/2 of force behind it.

If Shogun even could kick that guy's ass, it would would take longer than a minute. That real monk could no doubt whoop those two phonies in the videos you posted.


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Last edited by Quiero Mota on Mar 10th, 2011 at 05:27 AM

Old Post Mar 10th, 2011 05:25 AM
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Mindset
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I'd knock that monk out.


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Old Post Mar 10th, 2011 06:34 AM
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batdude123
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Big deal. Just because they can bench press a lot, doesn't mean they can take a blade to the neck. Or even win a fight. Besides, are the vast majority of bouncers trained in anything...or are they just hired because they're big and tall? Just something to think about.


Whether you want to admit it or not, strength plays a big part in knock-down-drag-out brawls. If someone grabs a hold of you, it's going to take more than flying kicks and katas to save you.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Because the brain is more sensitive than the torso (that's common knowledge). Qi Gong is called Iron Shirt for a reason, its not "Iron Helmet". Besides, he took a spear to the throat with 2,900 PSI; thats pretty impressive and incredible. Could some random bouncer do that? I doubt it.


Of course it's impressive. If a bouncer tried that, he'd obviously bleed out.

That being said, you're placing way too much emphasis on a demonstration that has no practical purposes in a real life scenario. He has to take time and effort to prepare himself physically and mentally for the task at hand. In the heat of battle, not only would he not have the time to prepare himself, but more importantly, his focus would be entirely on his opponent, not about taking a bat to the gut or a spear to the throat.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Who's "those guys"? Are we generalizing? I don't know Master Huang personally; maybe he's been in scraps, maybe not. I doubt he'd be a pushover in a real fight. Either way he demonstrated that his neck is essentially impervious to a blade with nearly a ton and 1/2 of force behind it.


The Shaolin monastery is Buddhist in faith and practice. The whole concept is about the sanctity of inner peace. They don't believe in violence unless it's for self-defense purposes. So yeah, I can flat-out guarantee that the guy in your video hasn't been in as many fights as a professional fighter... if he's been in any at all.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
If Shogun even could kick that guy's ass, it would would take longer than a minute. That real monk could no doubt whoop those two phonies in the videos you posted.


"If Shogun even could"?

Lawl. I know this might be hard to comprehend, but what that guy demonstrated in the video doesn't make him an effective fighter.


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Old Post Mar 10th, 2011 08:36 PM
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The Nuul
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MMA is closer to tournament TKD then it is to real MA's. Hell, Tournament is not even closer to real MA's. A bunch of people punching trees, bricks and mats etc... is a lot different than fighting or sparring a real Human being.


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Old Post Mar 10th, 2011 08:49 PM
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StyleTime
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mindset
If half a dozen guys can't beat one person, even if they're a pro fighter, that's pitiful.

I agree that any fighter is disadvantaged against multiple opponents, but it doesn't suprise me when something like this happens. People usually suck at fighting, and going up against a top ten heavyweight only further highlights the issue.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Not even. Some guy who checks ID cards for 8 bucks an hour > lifelong students of fighting? Gimmie a break.

It's highly debatable if they are "lifelong students of fighting" being that we rarely, if ever, see them fight.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Prep-Man
I'd take the Shaolin Monk over a bouncer anyday.

If they lived up to the hype, then obviously the monk wins; however, it's nearly impossible to argue with any solid evidence.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Big deal. Just because they can bench press a lot, doesn't mean they can take a blade to the neck. Or even win a fight. Besides, are the vast majority of bouncers trained in anything...or are they just hired because they're big and tall? Just something to think about.

If Shogun even could kick that guy's ass, it would would take longer than a minute. That real monk could no doubt whoop those two phonies in the videos you posted.

You're right. Demonstrations require a shit ton of training, but that isn't the same as fighting. The technique the monk uses on the bat is actually found in like....a billion martial arts styles(including ones used in MMA).

Nah. Shogun would break the dude's leg with a kneebar.

I'm only being fair here. If we saw some MMAtist claim he could beat Shogun just because he could burst a punching bag, I'd say the exact same thing.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by The Nuul
MMA is closer to tournament TKD then it is to real MA's. Hell, Tournament is not even closer to real MA's. A bunch of people punching trees, bricks and mats etc... is a lot different than fighting or sparring a real Human being.

Exactly. Humans actually fight back.


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Last edited by StyleTime on Mar 10th, 2011 at 10:19 PM

Old Post Mar 10th, 2011 10:13 PM
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Darth Angel
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I have no problem with people training katas and takind different martial arts, but they should not delude themselves, they are not becoming a lethal weapon with that.

Thinking well, let people think that TMA are the sh*t. It's easier to punch them in the face if they decide to pick a fight anyway. wink


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Old Post Mar 10th, 2011 10:15 PM
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Quiero Mota

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by batdude123
Whether you want to admit it or not, strength plays a big part in knock-down-drag-out brawls. If someone grabs a hold of you, it's going to take more than flying kicks and katas to save you.


That monk definitely wouldn't do a flying kick. If grabbed, he would reciprocate, and we'd have a ground fight on our hands. Its a misconception that Kung Fu is all strikes. Tiger, Dragon, Monkey, Praying Mantis (which I do), Elephant, Bear and others all have a good amount of stand-up grappling and ground game. In fact, Python is like 90% grappling.

Kata may seem corny and roundabout to the non-traditionalist, but it has its uses and is a good exercise/drill. It can be compared to shadowboxing, but with more focus. Every single move, stance and stance transition that makes up a kata serves a purpose.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by batdude123
Of course it's impressive. If a bouncer tried that, he'd obviously bleed out.

That being said, you're placing way too much emphasis on a demonstration that has no practical purposes in a real life scenario. He has to take time and effort to prepare himself physically and mentally for the task at hand. In the heat of battle, not only would he not have the time to prepare himself, but more importantly, his focus would be entirely on his opponent, not about taking a bat to the gut or a spear to the throat.


No practical purpose? What if someone pulled a kinfe on him? Well, there you go. That's when Qi Gong (Iron Shirt) would come into play.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by batdude123
The Shaolin monastery is Buddhist in faith and practice. The whole concept is about the sanctity of inner peace. They don't believe in violence unless it's for self-defense purposes. So yeah, I can flat-out guarantee that the guy in your video hasn't been in as many fights as a professional fighter... if he's been in any at all.


Training for self-defense purposes is exactly that: training for the unforeseeable, as anything is possible. Cagefighters train for one-on-one fights where there's a ref there to stop it for them if they're losing and it gets out of hand.

Sports fighting is about aerobics as much as it is about landing the knockout blow or finding the subsmission. A real fight should never last 15 or 25 minutes.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by batdude123
"If Shogun even could"?

Lawl. I know this might be hard to comprehend, but what that guy demonstrated in the video doesn't make him an effective fighter.


Do you think he's not a good fighter? I think we have every reason to believe he certainly wouldn't be a pushover. In a real fight there's only one objective: live.


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Old Post Mar 12th, 2011 03:51 AM
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The Nuul
Kramer

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Real MA's is about the body and mind, not about fighting someone. The movies got it twisted.


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Old Post Mar 12th, 2011 05:43 AM
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Mindset
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by StyleTime
I agree that any fighter is disadvantaged against multiple opponents, but it doesn't suprise me when something like this happens. People usually suck at fighting, and going up against a top ten heavyweight only further highlights the issue.
Aleks isn't a top ten HW, but yea, that's why it's pitiful. Unless they tried to fight him one at a time MA movie style, them all getting beaten is just sad.


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Old Post Mar 12th, 2011 07:24 AM
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Darth Piggott
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
That's the only thing that matters, bro.

And, yes. Gina Carrano's ****in hot.

(please log in to view the image)
thumb up


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Old Post Mar 12th, 2011 09:29 AM
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StyleTime
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mindset
Aleks isn't a top ten HW, but yea, that's why it's pitiful. Unless they tried to fight him one at a time MA movie style, them all getting beaten is just sad.

I completely thought you were talking about Overeem when I said "top ten heavyweight."

And yeah. Losing 6 on 1 should make for an embarrassing story.


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Last edited by StyleTime on Mar 12th, 2011 at 09:32 AM

Old Post Mar 12th, 2011 09:30 AM
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Quiero Mota

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mindset
Aleks isn't a top ten HW, but yea, that's why it's pitiful. Unless they tried to fight him one at a time MA movie style, them all getting beaten is just sad.


laughing out loud I know right.

I can almost picture them standing in a single-file line, and taking turns. One fool gets knocked out, and then the next guy charges.


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Old Post Mar 12th, 2011 09:38 AM
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batdude123
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
That monk definitely wouldn't do a flying kick. If grabbed, he would reciprocate, and we'd have a ground fight on our hands. Its a misconception that Kung Fu is all strikes. Tiger, Dragon, Monkey, Praying Mantis (which I do), Elephant, Bear and others all have a good amount of stand-up grappling and ground game. In fact, Python is like 90% grappling.


I've seen videos of the Tiger style grappling. The moves are way too highly dependent on the positioning of the opponent. In a real-life scenario, he's not going to be working with you in order to showcase the "effectiveness" of that style. It's the same reason why people criticize aikido.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Kata may seem corny and roundabout to the non-traditionalist, but it has its uses and is a good exercise/drill. It can be compared to shadowboxing, but with more focus. Every single move, stance and stance transition that makes up a kata serves a purpose.


I understand what katas are used for, thanks. That being said, you can't prepare for the unpredictable nature of a fight by using pre-determined sequences of movements.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
No practical purpose? What if someone pulled a kinfe on him? Well, there you go. That's when Qi Gong (Iron Shirt) would come into play.


Again, a demonstration =/= real life scenario. The guy doesn't walk around impervious to knives. If someone came up behind him and stabbed him, I can guarantee that he'd be punctured. Being able to focus and prepare oneself physically/mentally isn't something he'd have the luxury of doing in a random encounter.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Training for self-defense purposes is exactly that: training for the unforeseeable, as anything is possible. Cagefighters train for one-on-one fights where there's a ref there to stop it for them if they're losing and it gets out of hand.

Sports fighting is about aerobics as much as it is about landing the knockout blow or finding the subsmission. A real fight should never last 15 or 25 minutes.


You're also not going to have two adept mixed martial artists with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, NCAA Division I wrestling, or kickboxing backgrounds fighting in a random encounter, so this point is moot. We've seen how Roger Huerta handled a guy who looked damn-near 100 pounds heavier than him in a real fight, and we've already covered the Aleksander Emelianenko instance as well. And there are plenty of other examples.

Trying to make it seem like MMA fighters can't handle themselves in a real life fight is laughable.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Do you think he's not a good fighter? I think we have every reason to believe he certainly wouldn't be a pushover. In a real fight there's only one objective: live.


There's no evidence to suggest he's a good fighter.


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Old Post Mar 12th, 2011 06:14 PM
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Quiero Mota

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by batdude123
I've seen videos of the Tiger style grappling. The moves are way too highly dependent on the positioning of the opponent. In a real-life scenario, he's not going to be working with you in order to showcase the "effectiveness" of that style. It's the same reason why people criticize aikido.


What kind of 'videos' were they? If they were anything like the 2 quacks in your earlier videos, then yeah, they're probably not very convincing. Tiger grappling is highly effective: it places a heavy emphasis on clawing, biting, and attacks to the eyes and throat. Therefore, Tiger is essentially a banned style in MMA.

Aikido and Tiger are two different animals (no pun intended). Aikido was invented in the 20th century, and was from the beginning intended to be 100% defensive. Tiger, by contrast, is highly aggressive (just like the creature its based on) and isn't dependent on anything. The video you saw likely had one guy throwing a punch, frezzing in motion, and then the other guy did some move. But that's a very, very, very dumbed down version of how it is applied for people who are complete beginners in MA.

In fact, a while back I was reading an issue of Fight! (an MMA magazine), and Aikido was jokingly referred to as "hippie judo". Which isn't too far off the mark.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by batdude123
I understand what katas are used for, thanks. That being said, you can't prepare for the unpredictable nature of a fight by using pre-determined sequences of movements.


Well, that's not what they're intended for. They're meant to develop balance, get used to stances, and reflexive movement so that it all becomes second nature. So in that way, they do help.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by batdude123
Again, a demonstration =/= real life scenario. The guy doesn't walk around impervious to knives. If someone came up behind him and stabbed him, I can guarantee that he'd be punctured. Being able to focus and prepare oneself physically/mentally isn't something he'd have the luxury of doing in a random encounter.


Because he wouldn't have the time or opportunity to do so. He would do Chin Na, which is a form of mental/physical focus during a real-time situation. The person thinks/does/reacts all at once.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by batdude123
You're also not going to have two adept mixed martial artists with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, NCAA Division I wrestling, or kickboxing backgrounds fighting in a random encounter, so this point is moot. We've seen how Roger Huerta handled a guy who looked damn-near 100 pounds heavier than him in a real fight, and we've already covered the Aleksander Emelianenko instance as well. And there are plenty of other examples.

Trying to make it seem like MMA fighters can't handle themselves in a real life fight is laughable.


Good point. The general public by-and-large sucks at fighting.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by batdude123

There's no evidence to suggest he's a good fighter.


Then I guess we're at impasse. Since I can't produce courtroom-type evidence to show his fighting prowess while typing here from my laptop, you're unwilling to budge. But if we employ a little common sense, it would not be unreasonable to conclude that he could certainly defend himself in a fight. Though, I suspect you just don't want to give him any credit at all, no matter what. Its not like he's some blow-hard, lard-ass couch potato who says he can do various things but isn't willing to show for it.

----

Just to be clear: I'm not knocking MMA. I've been a UFC fan since its inception in 1993. I've been to 18 UFC events, as well as to numerous local, lesser events put on by small promotions. (By the way, I'm actually related to Efrain Escudero by marriage). But I think its necassary to criticize the popular school of thought that MMA is the be-all and end-all of martial marts. That criticism also applies to dogmatic traditional martial artists, of which there's no shortage.


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Last edited by Quiero Mota on Mar 12th, 2011 at 10:20 PM

Old Post Mar 12th, 2011 10:16 PM
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batdude123
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
What kind of 'videos' were they? If they were anything like the 2 quacks in your earlier videos, then yeah, they're probably not very convincing. Tiger grappling is highly effective: it places a heavy emphasis on clawing, biting, and attacks to the eyes and throat. Therefore, Tiger is essentially a banned style in MMA.

Aikido and Tiger are two different animals (no pun intended). Aikido was invented in the 20th century, and was from the beginning intended to be 100% defensive. Tiger, by contrast, is highly aggressive (just like the creature its based on) and isn't dependent on anything. The video you saw likely had one guy throwing a punch, frezzing in motion, and then the other guy did some move. But that's a very, very, very dumbed down version of how it is applied for people who are complete beginners in MA.

In fact, a while back I was reading an issue of Fight! (an MMA magazine), and Aikido was jokingly referred to as "hippie judo". Which isn't too far off the mark.


Actually, the video showed basically what you're talking about, including head control, wrist control, etc. The problem is that the eyes are minuscule targets when your opponent is flailing about. And a wrestler/BJJ practitioner can just as easily hit those sensitive areas in a no-holds barred fight. In fact, the Gracie's style of jiu-jitsu is pretty brutal, and they'd be the first to tell you that going for "submissions" in a real life scenario isn't the most practical thing to do (unless you choke them unconscious). It's all about establishing position, and then from there, you can do whatever you want to with your opponent.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Well, that's not what they're intended for. They're meant to develop balance, get used to stances, and reflexive movement so that it all becomes second nature. So in that way, they do help.


Fair enough.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Because he wouldn't have the time or opportunity to do so. He would do Chin Na, which is a form of mental/physical focus during a real-time situation. The person thinks/does/reacts all at once.


From what I understand, Chin Na is a grappling art and martial arts such as Judo, Jutusu, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu all evolved from it. But the key is evolution. Combat has evolved over the years, and these are the more effective styles. They don't place emphasis on specific ways for an opponent to attack you, but rather, they flow and allow you to deal with things as they come naturally.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Good point. The general public by-and-large sucks at fighting.


And for that reason, I may agree with you that a Monk would probably beat up the average person.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Then I guess we're at impasse. Since I can't produce courtroom-type evidence to show his fighting prowess while typing here from my laptop, you're unwilling to budge. But if we employ a little common sense, it would not be unreasonable to conclude that he could certainly defend himself in a fight. Though, I suspect you just don't want to give him any credit at all, no matter what. Its not like he's some blow-hard, lard-ass couch potato who says he can do various things but isn't willing to show for it.


While I don't doubt he'd be able to beat up random pedestrian X, a professional fighter who has actual experience with fighting and does nothing but eat, sleep, and breathe combat like Shogun is an entirely different story.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Just to be clear: I'm not knocking MMA. I've been a UFC fan since its inception in 1993. I've been to 18 UFC events, as well as to numerous local, lesser events put on by small promotions. (By the way, I'm actually related to Efrain Escudero by marriage). But I think its necassary to criticize the popular school of thought that MMA is the be-all and end-all of martial marts. That criticism also applies to dogmatic traditional martial artists, of which there's no shortage.


I understand where you're coming from, but MMA fighters don't have to play fair in the streets either.


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Old Post Mar 13th, 2011 12:08 AM
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SpadeKing
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Mosty military H2H involves a knife or grabbing some kind of makeshift weapon. Putting up your dukes in modern warfare just doesn't seem very practical...or smart


Works on CoD & Fallout

quote: (post)
Originally posted by The Nuul
WTF? We are not talking about bouncers in here.

Monks and MA teachers etc... do not fight for real. MMA fighters do.


No, MMA fighters fight for competition. My main Sifu on the other hand has plenty of actual fights to share, one I heard so far that involved some mma guy who thought he could beat Frank Shamrock. I don't know how the fight started, but my Sifu got head butted and has a scar from it. All I know is he (word for word) "kicked his a--".

Old Post Mar 13th, 2011 02:07 AM
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StyleTime
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by SpadeKing
No, MMA fighters fight for competition. My main Sifu on the other hand has plenty of actual fights to share, one I heard so far that involved some mma guy who thought he could beat Frank Shamrock. I don't know how the fight started, but my Sifu got head butted and has a scar from it. All I know is he (word for word) "kicked his a--".

Well, there's the same problem that keeps resurfacing. MMA fighters have proven ability. Your Sifu appears to have stories that may or not be true.

Acting like MMAtists can't fight outside the ring is absurd. Not trying to be mean, but are we still going to go through this guys? Seriously?
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
But I think its necassary to criticize the popular school of thought that MMA is the be-all and end-all of martial marts. That criticism also applies to dogmatic traditional martial artists, of which there's no shortage.

MMA, Vale Tudo, etc are probably the best venues available for safely training your skills while still maintaining realism. I think that is where the "be all end all" thing comes from.

That and the beer bellied wrasslin' fans who recently got into it. sad
quote: (post)
Originally posted by batdude123
We've seen how Roger Huerta handled a guy who looked damn-near 100 pounds heavier than him in a real fight

Yep. He was an ex-NFL player if I recall correctly, and was pretty 'effin huge.


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Last edited by StyleTime on Mar 13th, 2011 at 04:06 AM

Old Post Mar 13th, 2011 03:54 AM
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