You went and specifically found two videos with guys who were obviously frauds and grifters. And notice how they weren't even monks; one was American and the other was Japanese. Furthermore, they both do Karate, and Chi, Qi Gong and the Dim-mak (death touch) are all specifically Shaolin disciplines. And I knew the first video was a failure the moment they mentioned that walking joke George Dillman. The George Dillman International Schools is actually an entire chain of McDojos, there's even one a couple miles from my house. Dillman, who does Americanized Kenpo Karate, was the one who first coined the concept of the "no-touch knock-out" back in the 70's, and has never once agreed to have it tested scientifically. Him and all his schools are cons.
So you really dropped the ball with those two attempted counter-examples.
In any event, THIS is the video I was reffering to:
^That guy is a true monk and the real deal. Shogun's kicks would bounce off him like raindrops.
Yes, I've seen numerous examples of people doing the exact same things as the guy above. Three things:
1. The original point still stands. The bouncers are much stronger.
2. They never do any tests on the subject's head. I've seen dozens of examples of guys getting smashed with wood and metal on their abdomen, arms, back, etc, but never in the head. Frankly there's no evidence they wouldn't get KO'd. It's an entirely different matter when you're dealing with the brain.
3. Those guys have no actual combat experience. It's all theory and practice. That's no substitute for what Shogun does. If it took him longer than a minute to dispatch one of those guys, I'd be shocked.
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Big deal. Just because they can bench press a lot, doesn't mean they can take a blade to the neck. Or even win a fight. Besides, are the vast majority of bouncers trained in anything...or are they just hired because they're big and tall? Just something to think about.
Because the brain is more sensitive than the torso (that's common knowledge). Qi Gong is called Iron Shirt for a reason, its not "Iron Helmet". Besides, he took a spear to the throat with 2,900 PSI; thats pretty impressive and incredible. Could some random bouncer do that? I doubt it.
Who's "those guys"? Are we generalizing? I don't know Master Huang personally; maybe he's been in scraps, maybe not. I doubt he'd be a pushover in a real fight. Either way he demonstrated that his neck is essentially impervious to a blade with nearly a ton and 1/2 of force behind it.
If Shogun even could kick that guy's ass, it would would take longer than a minute. That real monk could no doubt whoop those two phonies in the videos you posted.
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Last edited by Quiero Mota on Mar 10th, 2011 at 05:27 AM
Whether you want to admit it or not, strength plays a big part in knock-down-drag-out brawls. If someone grabs a hold of you, it's going to take more than flying kicks and katas to save you.
Of course it's impressive. If a bouncer tried that, he'd obviously bleed out.
That being said, you're placing way too much emphasis on a demonstration that has no practical purposes in a real life scenario. He has to take time and effort to prepare himself physically and mentally for the task at hand. In the heat of battle, not only would he not have the time to prepare himself, but more importantly, his focus would be entirely on his opponent, not about taking a bat to the gut or a spear to the throat.
The Shaolin monastery is Buddhist in faith and practice. The whole concept is about the sanctity of inner peace. They don't believe in violence unless it's for self-defense purposes. So yeah, I can flat-out guarantee that the guy in your video hasn't been in as many fights as a professional fighter... if he's been in any at all.
"If Shogun even could"?
Lawl. I know this might be hard to comprehend, but what that guy demonstrated in the video doesn't make him an effective fighter.
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MMA is closer to tournament TKD then it is to real MA's. Hell, Tournament is not even closer to real MA's. A bunch of people punching trees, bricks and mats etc... is a lot different than fighting or sparring a real Human being.
I agree that any fighter is disadvantaged against multiple opponents, but it doesn't suprise me when something like this happens. People usually suck at fighting, and going up against a top ten heavyweight only further highlights the issue.
It's highly debatable if they are "lifelong students of fighting" being that we rarely, if ever, see them fight.
If they lived up to the hype, then obviously the monk wins; however, it's nearly impossible to argue with any solid evidence.
You're right. Demonstrations require a shit ton of training, but that isn't the same as fighting. The technique the monk uses on the bat is actually found in like....a billion martial arts styles(including ones used in MMA).
Nah. Shogun would break the dude's leg with a kneebar.
I'm only being fair here. If we saw some MMAtist claim he could beat Shogun just because he could burst a punching bag, I'd say the exact same thing.
Exactly. Humans actually fight back.
Last edited by StyleTime on Mar 10th, 2011 at 10:19 PM
I have no problem with people training katas and takind different martial arts, but they should not delude themselves, they are not becoming a lethal weapon with that.
Thinking well, let people think that TMA are the sh*t. It's easier to punch them in the face if they decide to pick a fight anyway.
__________________ I have never let my schooling interfere with my education
That monk definitely wouldn't do a flying kick. If grabbed, he would reciprocate, and we'd have a ground fight on our hands. Its a misconception that Kung Fu is all strikes. Tiger, Dragon, Monkey, Praying Mantis (which I do), Elephant, Bear and others all have a good amount of stand-up grappling and ground game. In fact, Python is like 90% grappling.
Kata may seem corny and roundabout to the non-traditionalist, but it has its uses and is a good exercise/drill. It can be compared to shadowboxing, but with more focus. Every single move, stance and stance transition that makes up a kata serves a purpose.
No practical purpose? What if someone pulled a kinfe on him? Well, there you go. That's when Qi Gong (Iron Shirt) would come into play.
Training for self-defense purposes is exactly that: training for the unforeseeable, as anything is possible. Cagefighters train for one-on-one fights where there's a ref there to stop it for them if they're losing and it gets out of hand.
Sports fighting is about aerobics as much as it is about landing the knockout blow or finding the subsmission. A real fight should never last 15 or 25 minutes.
Do you think he's not a good fighter? I think we have every reason to believe he certainly wouldn't be a pushover. In a real fight there's only one objective: live.
Aleks isn't a top ten HW, but yea, that's why it's pitiful. Unless they tried to fight him one at a time MA movie style, them all getting beaten is just sad.
I've seen videos of the Tiger style grappling. The moves are way too highly dependent on the positioning of the opponent. In a real-life scenario, he's not going to be working with you in order to showcase the "effectiveness" of that style. It's the same reason why people criticize aikido.
I understand what katas are used for, thanks. That being said, you can't prepare for the unpredictable nature of a fight by using pre-determined sequences of movements.
Again, a demonstration =/= real life scenario. The guy doesn't walk around impervious to knives. If someone came up behind him and stabbed him, I can guarantee that he'd be punctured. Being able to focus and prepare oneself physically/mentally isn't something he'd have the luxury of doing in a random encounter.
You're also not going to have two adept mixed martial artists with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, NCAA Division I wrestling, or kickboxing backgrounds fighting in a random encounter, so this point is moot. We've seen how Roger Huerta handled a guy who looked damn-near 100 pounds heavier than him in a real fight, and we've already covered the Aleksander Emelianenko instance as well. And there are plenty of other examples.
Trying to make it seem like MMA fighters can't handle themselves in a real life fight is laughable.
There's no evidence to suggest he's a good fighter.
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What kind of 'videos' were they? If they were anything like the 2 quacks in your earlier videos, then yeah, they're probably not very convincing. Tiger grappling is highly effective: it places a heavy emphasis on clawing, biting, and attacks to the eyes and throat. Therefore, Tiger is essentially a banned style in MMA.
Aikido and Tiger are two different animals (no pun intended). Aikido was invented in the 20th century, and was from the beginning intended to be 100% defensive. Tiger, by contrast, is highly aggressive (just like the creature its based on) and isn't dependent on anything. The video you saw likely had one guy throwing a punch, frezzing in motion, and then the other guy did some move. But that's a very, very, very dumbed down version of how it is applied for people who are complete beginners in MA.
In fact, a while back I was reading an issue of Fight! (an MMA magazine), and Aikido was jokingly referred to as "hippie judo". Which isn't too far off the mark.
Well, that's not what they're intended for. They're meant to develop balance, get used to stances, and reflexive movement so that it all becomes second nature. So in that way, they do help.
Because he wouldn't have the time or opportunity to do so. He would do Chin Na, which is a form of mental/physical focus during a real-time situation. The person thinks/does/reacts all at once.
Good point. The general public by-and-large sucks at fighting.
Then I guess we're at impasse. Since I can't produce courtroom-type evidence to show his fighting prowess while typing here from my laptop, you're unwilling to budge. But if we employ a little common sense, it would not be unreasonable to conclude that he could certainly defend himself in a fight. Though, I suspect you just don't want to give him any credit at all, no matter what. Its not like he's some blow-hard, lard-ass couch potato who says he can do various things but isn't willing to show for it.
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Just to be clear: I'm not knocking MMA. I've been a UFC fan since its inception in 1993. I've been to 18 UFC events, as well as to numerous local, lesser events put on by small promotions. (By the way, I'm actually related to Efrain Escudero by marriage). But I think its necassary to criticize the popular school of thought that MMA is the be-all and end-all of martial marts. That criticism also applies to dogmatic traditional martial artists, of which there's no shortage.
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Last edited by Quiero Mota on Mar 12th, 2011 at 10:20 PM
Actually, the video showed basically what you're talking about, including head control, wrist control, etc. The problem is that the eyes are minuscule targets when your opponent is flailing about. And a wrestler/BJJ practitioner can just as easily hit those sensitive areas in a no-holds barred fight. In fact, the Gracie's style of jiu-jitsu is pretty brutal, and they'd be the first to tell you that going for "submissions" in a real life scenario isn't the most practical thing to do (unless you choke them unconscious). It's all about establishing position, and then from there, you can do whatever you want to with your opponent.
Fair enough.
From what I understand, Chin Na is a grappling art and martial arts such as Judo, Jutusu, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu all evolved from it. But the key is evolution. Combat has evolved over the years, and these are the more effective styles. They don't place emphasis on specific ways for an opponent to attack you, but rather, they flow and allow you to deal with things as they come naturally.
And for that reason, I may agree with you that a Monk would probably beat up the average person.
While I don't doubt he'd be able to beat up random pedestrian X, a professional fighter who has actual experience with fighting and does nothing but eat, sleep, and breathe combat like Shogun is an entirely different story.
I understand where you're coming from, but MMA fighters don't have to play fair in the streets either.
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No, MMA fighters fight for competition. My main Sifu on the other hand has plenty of actual fights to share, one I heard so far that involved some mma guy who thought he could beat Frank Shamrock. I don't know how the fight started, but my Sifu got head butted and has a scar from it. All I know is he (word for word) "kicked his a--".
Well, there's the same problem that keeps resurfacing. MMA fighters have proven ability. Your Sifu appears to have stories that may or not be true.
Acting like MMAtists can't fight outside the ring is absurd. Not trying to be mean, but are we still going to go through this guys? Seriously?
MMA, Vale Tudo, etc are probably the best venues available for safely training your skills while still maintaining realism. I think that is where the "be all end all" thing comes from.
That and the beer bellied wrasslin' fans who recently got into it.
Yep. He was an ex-NFL player if I recall correctly, and was pretty 'effin huge.
Last edited by StyleTime on Mar 13th, 2011 at 04:06 AM
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Mar 5th, 2011 09:42 PM
Dame un respiro, guey...
I know right.
