Fortunately for me I guess, you haven't really made an argument, so much as said that everything I've said is true but it doesn't matter.
Telegraphed moves work best? Okay... that's like the crux of your argument here but I'm not even really sure how to respond to it, lol. "No they don't?" lol
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Last edited by Tzeentch on Aug 29th, 2010 at 06:04 AM
You say its telegraphed with no means of justification. Hey, Sam telegraphs as well, I can see everything he does!!!!111. It's a meaningless appraisal because something like 'skill' in a creative medium is not as easily quantified as speed or strength, more specifically when its cross universe debates like this.
Simple moves work best, just as Sam is simple, so is Snake. It's just that Snake has impressive showings of combat feats against people far superior to him in physical capability. This is often weakly relegated to terms of PIS . And no, his genes aren't upgraded or anything. He's just a clone, a weaker clone mind you, of a regular human soldier (albeit an excellent one)
Which just means that you don't actually know what telegraphed means.
No, it's actually not that difficult if you have eyes.
Haha, oh dear. The child's typo feelings have been hurt! How old are you? Six? Also, I edited like 3 minutes before you posted. So, yeah. Stop doing silly things.
No they don't.
See why just making declarative statements is dumb? Provide proof please. Substantiation.
That aside, I am curious about your reasoning for saying that. If the "simple stuff works best", then what was the point is creating... everything else?
What makes you think Sam is simple? If you compare his attacks to Snake's he's much more advanced. You don't need to be a world class martial artist to notice that.
Ah, so he is not super human in any way, shape, or form. Yet you think that him being fast enough and strong enough to hang with people who can deflect bullets... is not PIS? Interesting. Expand on that.
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"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."
Last edited by Tzeentch on Aug 29th, 2010 at 06:20 AM
Don't tell me. You do not read Opening Posts in threads you post in, am I correct? Otherwise, you would not have asked this question, as the answer is in the OP.
Sam Fisher's a regular human, albeit, a peak human.
The rest are all super-human to varying extents. They'd annihilate Sam if I were to give them their full abilities. That would be what we like to call 'spite'.
The main purpose of this thread was to gauge whether or not Sam Fisher could beat other Martial Artists, if we were to look at only Martial Art/CQC skill.
Truth be told, I wanted to make it a thread where we see whether or not Sam could beat each of the opponents listed (i.e. a non-gauntlet thread), but I'm not sure if that sort of a thread is allowed.
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Justify it. You don't get to say one multi-syllable word and feel entitled to a valid point because you said it first. What is telegraphed about Snake's maneuvers? You can't base this shit on silly gameplay animations, you'd have to do it by cutscenes. In which Snake hasn't been clowned/easily intercepted by anyone technique wise, other than Naked Snake being clowned by The Boss initially, who TAUGHT him everything he knows.
Eyes would tell you that Snake is able to take down and engage more guards in a far quicker amount of time.
Yeah I edited as well. I've never got the impression that you were a particularly bright fellow, so it just irks me when people try to feign things and fail at it. Don't do it again.
What are you talking about? His parkour abilities? That's not a combat feat. It's a stealth feat.
Sam does nothing that Snake doesn't. Snake incorporates Judo-esque throws, crisp striking, various joint locks and quick transitions between the two h2h ranges as well as well gun and knife combinations.
It seems you've been persuaded by the over-dramatic matrix esque-cutscenes of the Twin Snakes game on gamecube. Silicon Knights redid the first game in a ridiculous fashion. The original MGS1, 2, 3 and 4 did not show Snake in cutscenes doing things that ridiculous in such a stylized fashion.
He deals with huge threats with a mixture of general skill/stealth, extreme weapon knowledge(both his own and enemies), terrain knowledge, and amazing in-battle awareness being able to clearly keep track of number of rounds fired, reload time etc. Oh, and a little bit of CIS once in awhile. As was the case with the Grey Fox fight--whose suit was also continuously messing up.
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Last edited by CosmicComet on Aug 29th, 2010 at 06:49 AM
Snake's life is shorter than Sam's though, and he too has been fighting all his life. This fight is Snake versus Sam on equal terms though, nothing superhuman, no tech.
In Snake's short life (Not that short though, 42), he has dealt with alot moar than Sam Fisher has, and despite being only a peak human at the best of times, has regularly fought superhuman foes in H2H and won.
Basically, Snake does moves that you can see coming and react to before he finishes the attack.
Sam can win all the fights on the ground, he was a SEAL and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is a part of the Navy SEAL H2H training. As far as I know, none of those guys in the gauntlet knows any ground fighting martial arts.
I'm not going to debate if Sam can run the gauntlet, but that's not a good argument man... considering it takes alot of BJJ masters around 10 years or more to get a black belt in BJJ. Grace Jiu Jitsu is no joke, and although the Seals do learn it, they learn the basics mostly.
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Sam was doing spec-ops type things from the late 1970s until 1996 before thrid echelon, I'm positive that is enough time for him to reach black belt skill. Also it depends on how much you put into the martial arts training, considering Sam's H2H abilities he trained a lot with his martial arts, though it is obviously more specific in Krav Maga. They teach basics for whatever MA they train in all the U.S. military, just depends how far you want to take your skills in it.
Besides all that, Special forces are trained to a much higher degree in martial arts and depending on the mission type it could alter and Sam takes silent/non-lethal weapons so his MA skills are definitely higher than he is given credit obviously.
Most of the people he fights are borderline superhuman, much less can they "not fight very well". His genetic upgrades are hardly a factor given that he was given recessive genes in the first place. Snake's CQC alone is second to, if not equal to Big Boss (and don't forget that Big Boss went through his entire mission in a condition that Para-Medic described as being such that he shouldn't even have been out of the hospital after having been thrown from a ****ing bridge), who too, has better showings of H2H combat than Fisher, and Snake had gotten by in his missions neglecting it until MGS4, and don't ty and argue that CQC is nothing but punches and kicks, let alone 'telegraphed'. Like I said, his entire set of showings in MGS4 don;t involve any genetic upgades since his genetics are what were slowly weakening him by then in the first place, yet he still singleghandedley bested an entire roomful of resistance fighters.
Even Ocelot circa MGS4 would do Fisher in in a fist-fight.
I'm just throwing out the name of styles that he should have trained in while in those different organizations and the fact that the amount of emphasis of the training depends on the mission and style of it. He goes in with silent or non-lethal weapons, he will train more on his martial arts.
Also the less ground fighting they know, the worse off they are, even in a video game there isn't much in getting around that.
True, though it would probably be no different from what Sam has learned except it may have it's own special MA like other branches in the military.
Last edited by SpadeKing on Aug 29th, 2010 at 04:56 PM