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Sam Fisher runs a H2H Gauntlet
Started by: Demonic Phoenix

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Tzeentch
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by CosmicComet
Telegraphed? lol. And what makes your subjective appraissal accurate? What are you basing this on--gameplay animation?

Simple stuff works best anyway. Sam isn't a flashy fighter either, otherwise he'd die.

Neither do any impractical kung fu bullshit. Both are more grapplers than anything else.


Fortunately for me I guess, you haven't really made an argument, so much as said that everything I've said is true but it doesn't matter. no expression

Telegraphed moves work best? Okay... that's like the crux of your argument here but I'm not even really sure how to respond to it, lol. "No they don't?" lol


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Last edited by Tzeentch on Aug 29th, 2010 at 06:04 AM

Old Post Aug 29th, 2010 05:59 AM
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CosmicComet
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You say its telegraphed with no means of justification. Hey, Sam telegraphs as well, I can see everything he does!!!!111. It's a meaningless appraisal because something like 'skill' in a creative medium is not as easily quantified as speed or strength, more specifically when its cross universe debates like this.

Simple moves work best, just as Sam is simple, so is Snake. It's just that Snake has impressive showings of combat feats against people far superior to him in physical capability. This is often weakly relegated to terms of PIS . And no, his genes aren't upgraded or anything. He's just a clone, a weaker clone mind you, of a regular human soldier (albeit an excellent one)


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Old Post Aug 29th, 2010 06:07 AM
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Tzeentch
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by CosmicComet
[B]You say its telegraphed with no means of justification. Hey, Sam telegraphs as well, I can see everything he does!!!!111.


Which just means that you don't actually know what telegraphed means.

quote:
It's a meaningless appraisal because something like 'skill' in a creative medium is not as easily quantified as speed or strength, more specifically when its cross universe debates like this.


No, it's actually not that difficult if you have eyes.
quote:
And its 'crux', dumb ass.


laughing out loud Haha, oh dear. The child's typo feelings have been hurt! How old are you? Six? Also, I edited like 3 minutes before you posted. So, yeah. Stop doing silly things.

quote:
Simple moves work best,


No they don't.

See why just making declarative statements is dumb? Provide proof please. Substantiation.

That aside, I am curious about your reasoning for saying that. If the "simple stuff works best", then what was the point is creating... everything else?

quote:
just as Sam is simple, so is Snake.


What makes you think Sam is simple? If you compare his attacks to Snake's he's much more advanced. You don't need to be a world class martial artist to notice that.

quote:
It's just that Snake has impressive showings of combat feats against people far superior to him in physical capability. This is often weakly relegated to terms of PIS . And no, his genes aren't upgraded or anything. He's just a clone, a weaker clone mind you, of a regular human soldier.


Ah, so he is not super human in any way, shape, or form. Yet you think that him being fast enough and strong enough to hang with people who can deflect bullets... is not PIS? Interesting. Expand on that.


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"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."

Last edited by Tzeentch on Aug 29th, 2010 at 06:20 AM

Old Post Aug 29th, 2010 06:13 AM
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Demonic Phoenix
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by XMr. WinterX
so why the fvck was this thread created if noone can do half of the abilities they have?


Don't tell me. You do not read Opening Posts in threads you post in, am I correct? Otherwise, you would not have asked this question, as the answer is in the OP.

Sam Fisher's a regular human, albeit, a peak human.
The rest are all super-human to varying extents. They'd annihilate Sam if I were to give them their full abilities. That would be what we like to call 'spite'.

The main purpose of this thread was to gauge whether or not Sam Fisher could beat other Martial Artists, if we were to look at only Martial Art/CQC skill.

Truth be told, I wanted to make it a thread where we see whether or not Sam could beat each of the opponents listed (i.e. a non-gauntlet thread), but I'm not sure if that sort of a thread is allowed.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by CosmicComet
This thread sucks man.


I love you too.


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Old Post Aug 29th, 2010 06:23 AM
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CosmicComet
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Which just means that you don't actually know what telegraphed means.


Justify it. You don't get to say one multi-syllable word and feel entitled to a valid point because you said it first. What is telegraphed about Snake's maneuvers? You can't base this shit on silly gameplay animations, you'd have to do it by cutscenes. In which Snake hasn't been clowned/easily intercepted by anyone technique wise, other than Naked Snake being clowned by The Boss initially, who TAUGHT him everything he knows.

quote:

No, it's actually not that difficult if you have eyes.

Eyes would tell you that Snake is able to take down and engage more guards in a far quicker amount of time.

quote:

laughing out loud Haha, oh dear. The child's typo feelings have been hurt! How old are you? Six? Also, I edited like 3 minutes before you posted. So, yeah. Stop doing silly things.


Yeah I edited as well. I've never got the impression that you were a particularly bright fellow, so it just irks me when people try to feign things and fail at it. Don't do it again.

quote:

What makes you think Sam is simple? If you compare his attacks to Snake's he's much more advanced. You don't need to be a world class martial artist to notice that.


What are you talking about? His parkour abilities? That's not a combat feat. It's a stealth feat.

Sam does nothing that Snake doesn't. Snake incorporates Judo-esque throws, crisp striking, various joint locks and quick transitions between the two h2h ranges as well as well gun and knife combinations.


quote:

Ah, so he is not super human in any way, shape, or form. Yet you think that him being fast enough and strong enough to hang with people who can deflect bullets... is not PIS? Interesting. Expand on that.

It seems you've been persuaded by the over-dramatic matrix esque-cutscenes of the Twin Snakes game on gamecube. Silicon Knights redid the first game in a ridiculous fashion. The original MGS1, 2, 3 and 4 did not show Snake in cutscenes doing things that ridiculous in such a stylized fashion.

He deals with huge threats with a mixture of general skill/stealth, extreme weapon knowledge(both his own and enemies), terrain knowledge, and amazing in-battle awareness being able to clearly keep track of number of rounds fired, reload time etc. Oh, and a little bit of CIS once in awhile. As was the case with the Grey Fox fight--whose suit was also continuously messing up.


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Last edited by CosmicComet on Aug 29th, 2010 at 06:49 AM

Old Post Aug 29th, 2010 06:36 AM
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Q'Anilia
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by CosmicComet
Simple moves work best


What? No.

Stop me if I'm wrong, but isn't Sam Fisher: More experienced, better trained, adept martial artist and gorgeous?


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Old Post Aug 29th, 2010 09:22 AM
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NemeBro
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Simple moves do work best though, which is why styles like boxing have dominated MMA as a whole.

Snake has been fighting all his life, and against threats that would laugh Sam Fisher out of the room.

That said, I actually DON'T know what the word telegraphed means, and demand an explanation from Blax before I respond to any of his posts.


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Old Post Aug 29th, 2010 01:47 PM
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Q'Anilia
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Snake's life is shorter than Sam's though, and he too has been fighting all his life. This fight is Snake versus Sam on equal terms though, nothing superhuman, no tech.

H2h.


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Old Post Aug 29th, 2010 01:51 PM
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NemeBro
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In Snake's short life (Not that short though, 42), he has dealt with alot moar than Sam Fisher has, and despite being only a peak human at the best of times, has regularly fought superhuman foes in H2H and won.


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Old Post Aug 29th, 2010 01:57 PM
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SpadeKing
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NemeBro
Simple moves do work best though, which is why styles like boxing have dominated MMA as a whole.

Snake has been fighting all his life, and against threats that would laugh Sam Fisher out of the room.

That said, I actually DON'T know what the word telegraphed means, and demand an explanation from Blax before I respond to any of his posts.


Basically, Snake does moves that you can see coming and react to before he finishes the attack.

Sam can win all the fights on the ground, he was a SEAL and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is a part of the Navy SEAL H2H training. As far as I know, none of those guys in the gauntlet knows any ground fighting martial arts.

Old Post Aug 29th, 2010 02:01 PM
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Kaibs
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by SpadeKing
Sam was in the Navy SEALs and they do teach Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in the SEALs.


I'm not going to debate if Sam can run the gauntlet, but that's not a good argument man... considering it takes alot of BJJ masters around 10 years or more to get a black belt in BJJ. Grace Jiu Jitsu is no joke, and although the Seals do learn it, they learn the basics mostly.


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Old Post Aug 29th, 2010 02:17 PM
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SpadeKing
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kaibs
I'm not going to debate if Sam can run the gauntlet, but that's not a good argument man... considering it takes alot of BJJ masters around 10 years or more to get a black belt in BJJ. Grace Jiu Jitsu is no joke, and although the Seals do learn it, they learn the basics mostly.


Sam was doing spec-ops type things from the late 1970s until 1996 before thrid echelon, I'm positive that is enough time for him to reach black belt skill. Also it depends on how much you put into the martial arts training, considering Sam's H2H abilities he trained a lot with his martial arts, though it is obviously more specific in Krav Maga. They teach basics for whatever MA they train in all the U.S. military, just depends how far you want to take your skills in it.

Besides all that, Special forces are trained to a much higher degree in martial arts and depending on the mission type it could alter and Sam takes silent/non-lethal weapons so his MA skills are definitely higher than he is given credit obviously.

Old Post Aug 29th, 2010 02:55 PM
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NemeBro
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Throwing out the names of styles doesn't really count as evidence though.


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Old Post Aug 29th, 2010 02:57 PM
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FinalAnswer
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by SpadeKing
Basically, Snake does moves that you can see coming and react to before he finishes the attack.

Sam can win all the fights on the ground, he was a SEAL and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is a part of the Navy SEAL H2H training. As far as I know, none of those guys in the gauntlet knows any ground fighting martial arts.


FTR, Snake was a Green Beret before he was with FOXHOUND, and I'm pretty sure the Green Berets learn some super awesome martial arts.

So yeah.


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Old Post Aug 29th, 2010 03:00 PM
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BloodRawEngine
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
He doesn't. What MA feats does he have that doesn't involve anything having to do his genetic upgrades or PIS like him being able to keep up with people who can deflect bullets? Look at the way he fights. His punches and kicks are ridiculously telegraphed. He's an "MA God" who can beat anyone within his universe; most of the people in his universe don't actually fight very well though. In a contest where Snake doesn't have the seemingly super human durability that he has in his games, or the uncanny ability to keep up with people multitudes faster than him, he's getting his ass kicked, because his technique, which is basically just uppercuts, jabs, and throws, sucks.


Most of the people he fights are borderline superhuman, much less can they "not fight very well". His genetic upgrades are hardly a factor given that he was given recessive genes in the first place. Snake's CQC alone is second to, if not equal to Big Boss (and don't forget that Big Boss went through his entire mission in a condition that Para-Medic described as being such that he shouldn't even have been out of the hospital after having been thrown from a ****ing bridge), who too, has better showings of H2H combat than Fisher, and Snake had gotten by in his missions neglecting it until MGS4, and don't ty and argue that CQC is nothing but punches and kicks, let alone 'telegraphed'. Like I said, his entire set of showings in MGS4 don;t involve any genetic upgades since his genetics are what were slowly weakening him by then in the first place, yet he still singleghandedley bested an entire roomful of resistance fighters.

Even Ocelot circa MGS4 would do Fisher in in a fist-fight.

Old Post Aug 29th, 2010 03:01 PM
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SpadeKing
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NemeBro
Throwing out the names of styles doesn't really count as evidence though.


That's why I included the part about the training no expression

I'm just throwing out the name of styles that he should have trained in while in those different organizations and the fact that the amount of emphasis of the training depends on the mission and style of it. He goes in with silent or non-lethal weapons, he will train more on his martial arts.

Also the less ground fighting they know, the worse off they are, even in a video game there isn't much in getting around that.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
FTR, Snake was a Green Beret before he was with FOXHOUND, and I'm pretty sure the Green Berets learn some super awesome martial arts.

So yeah.


True, though it would probably be no different from what Sam has learned except it may have it's own special MA like other branches in the military.

Last edited by SpadeKing on Aug 29th, 2010 at 04:56 PM

Old Post Aug 29th, 2010 04:54 PM
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BloodRawEngine
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IIRC the only MA Fisher's confirmed to practice (at least regularly) is Krav Maga, the style taught to the Israeli Army.

Old Post Aug 29th, 2010 05:29 PM
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SpadeKing
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I know, that and along with Navy SEALs CQB which is probably S.C.A.R.S. Those are just the two we ever see him use.

Old Post Aug 29th, 2010 06:25 PM
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XMr. WinterX
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so why is Dante here if he hasnt really shown much H2H combat in his series? If this were to have guns it would have a different story.

Old Post Aug 29th, 2010 07:38 PM
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TH3_V01D
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Snake outclass Fisher in every area. He was bred for combat since his birth.
Low level superhuman vs generic tough american guy is a bit unfair.

Old Post Aug 29th, 2010 09:08 PM
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