I think the argument was that Nate could send surfer outside the omniverse or something to that extent and whether or not the surfer could cross barriers that Watchers couldn't.
He was much more stable by the following number. This time he drained a little bit of psionic energy from a lot of people to from an avatar in the physical world.
Surfer would prolly just blitz Nate and disperse him before he can form a suitable defense. Dispersing him WOULD count as a win.
Also, other than telepathy (w/c the Surfer has shown some ability in), Surfer pretty much has the got the better higher end feats between the two. Planet smashing. Tanking planet killing attacks. Making black holes. Matter manipulation on a planetary scale. Etc. What does Nate has that would trump the Surfer's top end feats?
That is, of course, Nate has similar/equal speed feats to Surfer's.
Some interesting arguments. Nate's a very high end opponent, but IMO Surfer just has the tools to take most people near his class. In this case his ability to transmute matter as well as modulate and convert energy. It's not a slight to Nate's standing by any means that Surfer has a tactical avenue to defeat him, just like it isn't for Superman.
Superman vs. Nate would be very interesting though.
According to many Superman has the ability to vibrate himself to a harmonic which allows him to become intangible and/or interact with intangible objects/opponents. He supposedly can also alter his heat vision frequency in a similar fashion. I'm pretty sure an argument can and will be made given how staunch the Supes supporters are.
Counter-vibration was used to destroy (or disperse) DS's vibrational energy form, but claiming it as kill-all plot device that can be used on anything in the forums is stretching it a bit. Its use is unlikely, SNG can step into another dimension to avoid it (he can learn of it and anticpate its use through TP and precog) or put SM down before he uses it.
The idea that everything (according to SM) has a vibration and can be cancelled by a counter-vibration doesn't mean a priori that SM knows what all the vibrations would be or that he can replicate them. It's also a concept inherent to the DC universe, in a neutral one, we could expect it to work, but at the same time, other characters, might not be made of said vibrations. Whether or not SNG could reform afterwards (survive or escape into the astral plane or whatever) or even if it would work remain somewhat speculative.
This argument is going in circles, due to your continuous effort to stone wall instead of addressing the key point. I clearly pointed the means of how Surfer entered those universe(s), and why they cant be applied. I am dosing so, not so much because I am focusing on X-Man plot specific ability, as oppose to Marvel clearly labeling the difference between a parallel, and alternate realties.
I don’t see the point in continuing this argument, I concede that Surfer can transverse alternate realties since kgkg posted the feat you failed to produce. Now if you’d like, I will be more then happy to breakdown the difference between parallel realities to alternate realties to clear up any confusions.
With your comment ending if Nate can match, or rival Surfers speed. Lets tackle these one by one, starting by your opening/ending statement. The Speed issue. Why would Nate be worried about Norrins nanosecond reaction, if Nate is operating on Planck Units? The idea that Surfer could blitz Nate is unreasonable, if he is perceiving the world in strikingly smaller units of time.
Good for you to concede the point and all, but just so you know you’re still wrong about several of your key points. We can keep up the arguement regarding the classifications of alternate realities if you really want but the most important of the errors in your reasoning of course is…
…I’m all but positive that none of that actually happened(I say all but positive because as I‘ve said the arc is quite confusing). It’s all a type of dream sequence that Oclin uses to garner Surfer’s sympathy. See Surfer was angry about the way Oclin made contact with him so Oclin used those images so Surfer could understand just how desperate the situation was over there. Surfer even talks about it in the next issue(pay specific note to the first panel of the second scan)…
Oclin showed Surfer what it was like to lose EVERYTHING important to him(good and bad) as though it happened to him first hand. That’s why Earth’s heroes were there on the same planet as Galactus, Thanos, Shalla Ba.
And if you look at the first scan, you’ll also notice the Watcher saying what I’ve been saying about the Watcher’s not existing over there(other than the one he talks about who turns out to be alive). So there’s no Watchers there, the Watcher’s know nothing about it, the Unilord is the embodiement of the universe rather than Eternity, and you’re point in regards to the alternate characters falls flat… so yeah, it takes place outside the 616 multiverse/omniverse.
No concession, just a statement of fact. Unless Nate has instances of escaping from a floating cosmic limbo made of pure spatial energy or reacting to a blitz from someone with Surfer’s speed Surfer’s ability to defend against ANY tactic from Nate is pretty much irrelevant since he‘d be one shotted by Norrin's opening tactic.
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Last edited by darthgoober on Oct 28th, 2010 at 04:08 AM
Gender: Unspecified Location: REALM OF THE UNDERWORLD
Those are memories from Grand practitioner Tey cept they where replace with beings who Surfer is familiar/close so he would feel empathy and chose to help..
I had read somewhere that the Unilord Universe was outside of reality.. I have no idea what that means..
a Doesn't he have to activelly go into planck time to access that? I don't think he perceives the world that way constantly. His reactions seemed human-like when he was last interacing with other characters.
b dispersing him wouldnt have lasting effects, his mind would survive and reform a body to interact with the physical world again. But it could count as a temp win.
c SNG could walk through almost any level of blast dished at him by avoiding the damage (phasing, dimensionshift, etc) instead of tanking it, so his faux matter body durabilty isn't a big issue. Still, energy manipulation and more exotic attacks should harm him.
d this would pin SS's control over matter against SNG's. SS has the better feats in this departament
He has to perceives the Planck Length, otherwise he wouldn’t know of his existence altogether. This is supported by Nate constantly retrieving information, emanating from the Planck Length while in the middle of a fight supports this.
In a moment Nate did the following: sampled all known chemical compound to neutralize Dakens pheromones, phasing through three different attacks, mocks Moonstone about her speed/strength, halts Ares attack, and dials up information regarding Ares.
Most pof these feats against the dark avengers do not require accessing plancktime and he did not sample all chemicals during the fight, he says he has sampled them all.
The only solid showing of him accessing other modes of perception is when he dealed with Ares. When he takes mimic to planck time he says it's one of his 300 ways of seeing the world or whatever and that he accesses it to see the timelines spreading before him. To me that implied that it isn't really on all the time.
It’s a bit more involved. Look at Mimic attempting to copy Nate’s future sight, and Nate responds, you want see then see. He literally perceives the world in Planck Moments. Nate only stepped into the Planck Time, to give himself (& Mimic) a momentary pause, and break down how his Extra Sensory Perception works.
Anyhow I will respond to D_Dude1210 laundry list.
On top of being a Monstrous Telepath, coupled with his Pre-Cog. Nate is now a Psychic Force, living psi energy if you will. You cant measure his reaction time, because that would be comparing him to human standards where we clock his cognitive processing. I think you will agree with me, that you cant reference human standards, to someone that isn’t even human anymore. The speed of thought itself can not be quantified (The Speed of Sound is 761 miles per hour. The speed of light is 186,000 miles per second. The Speed of Thought cannot be quantified. - Charles Xavier). Secondly you need to factor in, that Nate perceives the world in Planck Moments. At this moment the idea that Nate can not react to Surfers speed blitz is unconceivable.
If Surfer manages to deconstruct Nate’s body, Nate would simply reform himself. You need to understand, that his body is nothing more then a container made of a psi construct of his creation. He gave himself a very pliable body. So no I don’t think dispersing his physicality will cut it. But if Surfer can deconstruct his astral/mental being, that’s a different ballgame. That is what kept Nate from reforming, since he dispersed a piece of his conscious across the minds of all living beings. But I have yet to see Surfer apply such ability, effecting the mind in such manner. So far I’ve only seen Jean Grey manifesting the Phoenix Force with a Cerebra Unit, has been able to pull this off with Xavier.
Its been stated, and its been shown that Nate can destroy a planet. Nate can also augment his physical might above class 100, theoretically hammer his opponents with Moon crushing blows. Or he can make himself completely/partially intangible. It’s one of the perks of having a pliable body.
I will concede that Surfer has better matter manipulating feats. Yet Nate is no slouch in this department. In a battle, whatever matter manipulating Surfer can pull off in the heat of the moment, Nate should be able to counter. Or better yet if matter manipulation was to be used against Nate, it simply wouldn’t work. Its been stated on panel that Nate has molecular control over his body, demonstrating Energy to Mass conversion. It’s also been stated that Nate has “The power to mold atoms as its clay”, and showed this off when he was atomically reconstructing the pacific fleets the moment they where vaporized.
Lastly Nate’s telepathy needs to be factored in. Yes Surfer has some mental resistance, but even the likes such as Emma Frost could barely hold up telepathic shielding despite being amplified by a Cerebra Unit. And get this Nate wasn’t even looking to break her mental shields. Your talking about a person how can ionize the entire globe with his telepathic wave. Nate has set loose a mental tsunami across globe, crippling the likes such as Psylocke, Jean, and Xavier.
For all intents, and purposes Nate could burn through Surfers mind regardless of his mental blocks because he is simply that damn powerful.
Nate: “Don’t get me wrong your telepathic blocks are excellent, but you’ve never met anyone like me before.”
The Gauntlet: “How much did you read from us?”
Nate: “Not much. If I push your blocks any harder. I’d turn you into vegetables.”
By far this is not a one-sided match, and unlike the Superman vs Surfer fight. Cheap exploitations will not be the means to end this match.
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Oct 26th, 2010 04:31 AM
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