ihave a question. If the above is true, why wouldn't God just wipe the inherent corruptness from my new born babies soul? Wouldn't that be the moral, ever loving, all compasionate thing to do?
Does the FACT that man is on average moe moral than your christian God could EVER be, not flip the switches that tell you that EVEN if God existed, there's nothing that makes him worthy of your worship.
You're a dad, would you ever construct a torture chamber in your house and threaten to leave your son in there FOR ETERNITY if he didnt love you? Right and wrong is what we make it, and by we i mean us as humanity, God doesn't know a lick about being human, if he did...
My level of morality follows the path of sanctity of life, don't hurt others, don't kill others, help those who need it, raise my son to be good, love my wife, be faithful , NOT because i read it in some book, but because we live ina society where id like to be treated the way i treat others, more or less. Thats why we make our own morals and pick our own right and wrong, because WE have to live together, God doesn't even factor into the decision. How could he, he sacrificed his own son, for sins he KNEW would happen, then proceeds to curse every innocent child with a damned soul headed for obliteration unless we say we love him for eternity.
Like I said, I don't know all the physics behind this, or really whether its relevant to the origin of the universe, but there are certain effects related to this phenomena where particles more or less arise out of nothing.
I don't know with certainty, because I have not seen a strong logical argument about whether the energy of the universe has always existed, or was arose spontaneously from nothing. However, I have seen even less of a strong argument in favor of god creating the universe, so I cannot believe that either. Right now, this is an area of research being discussed; from what I have heard, current advances have made spontaneous creation plausible. I haven't read them enough to decide on that one.
The more intelligent people are, the more people realize that that "fact" is flawed. There is no "divine order" to the universe. We see things as orderly because of something referred to as the anthropic principle.
That's just completely false. Many animals pursue their own imagination (any animal playing can show you that), your idea you've been continually claiming, you have not given it one shred of substantiation other than it is what you wish to believe. We have not cured AIDs, or figured out a way to remove many parasites, nor could we have much impact on a variety of bacteria, that exist all over the earth and permeate everything. Even if we nuked the world with everything we had, plenty of bacteria would linger and survive us, insulated in strange environments and able to survive the harshest of conditions.
You may feel atheists are more likely to show no compunction for their actions, but this is not true. Digi even showed a study earlier, demonstrating that atheists in a classroom were not only no more likely to cheat or copy than christian students, but in fact did it less; the atheists demonstrated more morality than the christians. inimalist in the GD forum (he will hopefully elaborate on this), demonstrated that people who believe they are following perfect morals are far more likely to lie and then rationalize it away.
This is in no way evidence that the soul exists. I do not see what makes that "logical" in the slightest.
there was no religious connotation to the study, and I don't personally believe that more religious people are sure of their morality than are atheists [eh, you might be able to convince me otherwise on this, certainly I'd say they think they are more moral than are atheists (and that they spend much less time considering the moral consequences of their actions)]. Many religions have "man is flawed" as a very important belief.
There is some extension of this in other studies too. People, when told a ghost was seen in a room (or any other story where the effect is "someone invisible is watching you") were less likely to cheat on a test. So, in that way, belief might actually make you more moral, so long as you actually believe God is watching and judging you, literally every moment.
Religion, god, scripture, etc, can prime both empathic behaviour and violence, as measured in experimental settings, depending on what aspect of religion is used to influence people (the violence prime from religious sources is much more powerful than from secular sources), and this holds for both religious and non-religious people.
Ultimately, I don't think data really supports, one way or another, that religion makes people more or less moral, though I'm not familiar with the study digi cited.
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Re: Are atheists afraid of judgement?
If you cannot comprehend something, then what business do you have judging?
Purpose for life comes from within, not from without. I think the reason this is an issue for you is that you cannot find purpose, and you have filled that gap with a belief. Some people have great purpose in life without the need for a belief in a god.
Right and wrong are not absolutes, but instead are relative. What is right for one person maybe wrong for another. However, being that we are all humans, and humans are more alike then unalike, you can say some general things about right and wrong, but that does not mean they are absolute.
People have different reasons, and for some you might be right. However, I don’t fear a judgment, because judgment is just mythology. But then again, I’m not an atheist.
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Last edited by Shakyamunison on Nov 22nd, 2010 at 10:57 PM
I know that I must seem like a judgemental person but I really am not. I don't even believe that there's a difference between atheists and christians except what they say they believe. People calling themselves either are apt to suddenly call themselves the other. One thing I noted while reading is that perhaps atheists behave better than people who claim to know God. I can see how this might be true as atheists won't claim that their actions are supported by a diety and feel solely responsible for whatever they do. Maybe more people who call themselves atheists will end up in heaven than the people who call themselves christians. I don't even care If you guys respond with " There is no heaven!! " I believe that there is and I see the potential for all people who take responsibility for their behavior to go. I know that the in the Bible God asks, " How can you claim to love me whom you have never seen and hate your brother whom you see every day?" I would daresay that religious people are far far more judgmental than atheists. I know because they've condemned me before and even accused me of being demon possessed because I wouldn't just agree with them. Maybe atheists aren't concerned with judgement at all because they're sick of all the lies and hypocrisy that come from the religious camp. I had one lady tell me that I wasn't saved because you have to be taught by someone else how to interpret the scriptures. I don't think I've ever been as disgusted by a comment. I wouldn't say such a thing about the most outspoken atheist. It will take me some time to respond to questions but I'll do my best.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Are atheists afraid of judgement?
Ok, but there's nothing very scientific about one's personal stance on the death penalty. It's a philosophical/moral stance.
So then help me out here; how exactly did you decide to change your mind when it comes to execution? Did you have some ultra-liberal professor who convinced you to 'see the light', or what?
Not confused, but "inquisitive"? It seems that not knowing where to start at a buffet would be a good analogy. "Hmm.....so many choices, but which one's for me?"
I also have changed my mind about things in the past when confronted with evidence, or an otherwise sufficient reason to do so. But I dont join the next bandwagon craze willy-nilly.
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Nah, that's stupid. Oviously morality can be influenced by a logical argument. "Reason is the slave of passion" after all, you use your reason to reach the goals your passions give you. If you believe, morally, that the fewest possible number of people should die and someone convinces you that the death penalty doesn't reduce the rate of murder then it makes sense to change your position.
More generally if you decide to divorce morality from reason you'll end up behaving in ways that contradict your morals. Like for example:
"Killing is wrong but stabbing people is okay."
"But stabbing people has a good chance of killing them."
"Sorry, your argument is too scientific for me. This is an issue of morality not reason."
Yeah, that new craze that they call atheism. Why I recall just last month when that fellow Socrates was talking about it for the first time.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Are atheists afraid of judgement?
why do you have such a poor opinion of someone changing their mind on an issue?
do you really think it is more respectable to put your fingers in your ears and deny things that make sense?
like, there are arguments I've made on these forums, I'm sure even recently, that I wouldn't agree with now. Am I simply doing what some aging hippy douche wanted in your mind?
This is why you're so hard to talk to. You often manage to falsely frame what I've said in a way that attempts to demean me or my position, or it looks at only part of the argument instead of its context.
What I can't comprehend in this particular instance is why it seems like it's so deplorable to you for someone to look at everything available to them when making a decision. Frankly, it's simply ignorance not to make yourself aware of the best arguments for and against every religion if you want to take them seriously (and by proxy, to take your decision seriously). After leaving Christianity, my search was a basic exercise in personal rigor. How was I to dismiss something or endorse it, without truly understanding it? You're mistaking bandwagon-jumping for thorough analysis (and there were precious few bandwagons I actually jumped on. It was mostly, as is due in most logical analysis, tentative acceptance of various reasonable possibilities until convincing evidence is brought against them. I doubt I could have truly called myself any particular religion between my original Catholicism and my current Atheism).
You don't particularly care for me, and the feeling is somewhat mutual. I understand that. We've always been able to treat each other civilly, and I respect you for that at least, and this instance is no exception. But your posts on this make you seem close-minded, at best. Giving lip service to your own "changes" (whatever they might be) are a sorry excuse when you are so unjustly critical of anyone's else's search for knowledge.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Are atheists afraid of judgement?
Well, obviously logic can influence a person's morality, but they don't necessarily have to go hand-in-hand.
You can also stab someone in the hand or foot without mortally endangering them.
And by the way, Socrates wasn't actually an Atheist.
What makes you think I have a poor opinion of changing minds? I've changed my mind in the past about various things; big deal.
I don't stick my fingers in my ears; I'm always willing to hear the other side. But if I'm not convinced then I don't budge. There's a big difference between being pig-headed and awaiting a good reason (I'm the latter).
It depends on the arguments, and how deep they are. Wanting sushi one day, and then Mexican the next is one thing. But drastically changing your moral and/or religious views often and with little prodding is just...well, a person drifting in the ocean with lots of wind but no sail, oar, or rudder.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Are atheists afraid of judgement?
you appear to be mocking King Kandy for, at some point in his life, deciding that he no longer agreed with the death penalty
I'm certainly not accusing you of any of those things, but why would you be critical of someone for finding a better understanding of what they believe?
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In fact it doesn't seem like the idea occurred to you at all.
Also, they really should go hand-in-hand. Like even if you're morally opposed to reason you'd have to use reason to arrive at the conclusion that acting irrationally is moral.
They're certainly more likely to die than if you hadn't stabbed them. But even if they weren't fixing the example is quite trivial.
Made some good arguments for it, though.
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Graffiti outside Latin class.
Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
A juvenal prank.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Are atheists afraid of judgement?
that depends on how you define better...
do you claim to know better than KK what his own opinions are?
I'm not trying to goad you or anything, so no worries or anything, I just think you might be being a little harsh on this point. Hell, I remember being 19 and CONVINCED I was going to discover psychic powers
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Are atheists afraid of judgement?
No, I try to take a scientific approach, based on the axiom that the purpose of punishment is to reduce crime. From that perspective, I realized that statistically, the death sentence did nothing to benefit of this.
I changed my mind when I received statistics indicating the death sentence did nothing to minimize crime and suffering. Your idea that I was brainwashed by some "ultra-liberal" as your first response is borderline trolling.
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Morality can be very much like mathematics in a way, that you choose some axioms and derive your complete morality logically from it. Even reevaluating the axioms seems like a smart thing from time to time as ones personal feelings change, but the way King Kandy said he changed his mind on the death penalty is definitely the right thing to do. If you are convinced by reason that one of your derived beliefs hasn't been sound on the basis of your core belief the only reasonable thing is to change your opinion on that to make it intrinsically logical, if you can't do that for whatever reason perhaps one of the axioms you choose really isn't something you actually fully belief or you have to weigh opposing ideals differently. Ultimately it would be nice if one could explain their beliefs based on some core morals, which are of course, like everything, subjective.
That's how a fair discussion based on logical argument (as opposed to a debate) should work, too.
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KMC Community Forums
Nov 22nd, 2010 06:10 PM
because you have to be taught by someone else how to interpret the scriptures. I don't think I've ever been as disgusted by a comment. I wouldn't say such a thing about the most outspoken atheist. It will take me some time to respond to questions but I'll do my best.
