Fine, that is your opinion, but IMO all the subplots in PT do and did matter in the bigger picture and as you said about the OT for the PT they are all still essential to the main story, or how the story/characters progress.
How does the PT have too many characters that mean little? Obi-wan, Anakin, Padme, Sidious, Dooku c3p0 & r2, quigon. they all meant something.
The OT has Luke, Vader, Han, Leia, Emperor,c3po, r2, Lando
That's the same number plus a few others in each trilogy like Tarkin, Boba, Grievous, organa, etc.
The deviations in the PT were made worse by the fact that they had several separate 'adventures' going on at the same time and it kept flicking to and fro each giving absolutely no one scene priority over another. The OT does not jump around too much and so we feel comfortable in the setting we are being given at the time.
The PT has lots of staged characters that mean nothing because they don't survive very long nor do they have any real substance, or character to them. Darth Maul, Count Dooku, Mace Windu, Jango Fett, Selbulba(the unofficial villain of the first part of TPM), any of the extraneous Jedi that are wiped out so easily in ROTS, Jar Jar Binks, Qui-Gon (means nothing in the OT; ironically enough he should have been the 'good friend' that Obi-Wan Kenobi refers to)etc.
While I know this doesn't account for everyone, the notion of the PT sucking as a whole is contradicting the way almost all of us felt after watching Episode III. That Lucas finally delivered and Sith was one of the best installments of the saga. Don't believe me? Ah...let's turn back the clock 5 years in time and revisit our wonderful reactions to Episode III. http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...ew+forumid%3A38
But now we make statements like the PT as whole was terrible, and I ask why we can't acknowledge something like "Well, I wasn't quite captivated by Episode I and II, but ROTS was a great sendoff as the final chapter in SW."
That movie shows that Lucas was capable of making a film that at a minimum, was at least better than one of the Episodes of the ever so precious, practically flawless, god like OT. So saying the PT sucks...is also applying the notion that ROTS sucked, when in my opinion, people just aren't admitting that Lucas proved them wrong.
As far as characters not reacting to their enviornments in the PT....don't you think the intense heat on a desert planning like Tatooine would force charcters like Luke to wear shorts and a t-shirt? Instead he's dressed like this: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_RhoiX9HEM...keskywalker.jpg I'd probably hang myself wearing something like that out in a desert. How did they even survive on Tatooine...where do they get their water or how do they produce it? It's never explained. Oh, it must suck then because they never developed how people survive on a planet that would be practically unsurvivable.
The issue with the PT is not lack of story. If anyone says that each of the PT films didn't have a story, that's completely not true. In fact, even the ever so hated AOTC was more "plot and story" driven then either Menace or Sith. So again, there's not a lack of story, but rather lack of the story that "you" wanted to see.
For example...the characters are emotionless right? In the original they were so bright and colorful. Luke had emotions because he was constantly pet peeved or whining about something. Oh wait!! Isn't that what everyone said about Anakin too? We all hated Anakin because he whined alot...yeah....oh, just like Luke! Whining is an emotion...being incredibly annoying to the point that you wish someone would die "Jar Jar" is a character with emotion even though you don't like it....and Obi-Wan being boring? He's part of an era when the Jedi must obide under strict rules and let go of attachment, so it would only make sense that characters like Obi-Wan and Mace Windu are calm...collected and laid back. Yet we make unfair comparisons between this Star Wars era and films, to the old SW era and films of the OT. If you take the prequels at face value for what they are, they're not bad films. They're only bad in the sense that you're holding them up against the OT. Watch a film like Batman and Robin, or better yet, Battlefield Earth...then come back here and tell me the Prequels sucked.
We forget, characters from this era of Star Wars, in a more elegant, sophisticated time, would be far more casual and unnerving, as opposed to a time when the Empire is causing great stress and despair among the people living under it's dictatorship.
Last edited by Sith Master X on Jan 7th, 2011 at 12:44 AM
Although I do sympathise with your views, SMX, I do not entirely agree.
Yes, ROTS stood out from the PT. It does. I remember the pacing was much better, the jokes were better etc. My main gripe was that ROTS made AOTC obsolete: AOTC became a meaningless story that doesn't start anywhere, that doesn't go anywhere. I said it zillion times before: AOTC tells us two things: a) a clone army was secretly ordered (but since we never know who did it, what's the point of doing exposition on this point... it's just an announcement now.... boring) and b) Anakin falls in love... (and that's about the worst love story ever made, totally unbelievable, terrible lines and performances). Since both don't really work dramatically, AOTC is a major failure.
And though ROTS is a lot better than the previrous two, a closer look at it does in fact raise questions:
1. Why is Anakin's turn to the dark side so rushed and weird (first he wants to kill Sidious, then he tells Mace that Sidious is a Sith and says he's on the only one who can stop him, he follows Mace and kills the guy, then Sidious tells him he cannot save people from death... the very reason Anakin killed Mace... WTF???)
2. Why is the end battle so long and so boring?
And that raises the major question about the PT despite its merits (ROTS is the best, AOTC is the prettiest, TPM had a good be it a tad long pod race) why does it fail to deliver it's main plot points? Why does it give us lots of unimportant side characters that do not contribute to the main plot points but do offer a lot of eye candy? And why does it so often contradict facts and suggestions from the OT. The most important one being OB1 talking fondly of Anakin as a good friend... and we never really SEE them as good friends... Yes, they talk about it, but what we really see is them bickering and complaining about each other.
Sorry mate.... ROTS was NOT flawless. There is only one nearly flawless film in the Sw saga and that is Empire.
Ever seen beduins? They wear a lot of layers of clothing. It keeps the body temperature constant. I think Lucas chose this appropriately to reflect a desert culture. You don't live in the desert and go wearing shorts and a t-shirt all day... You'd be nuts, you were protective clothing from radiation, light, sand etc. Luke's clothing refelcts that of the Tuskens who also wear a lot of protecting layered clothing.
So that's a rather lame analysis.
I agree there was no lack of story. there was a lot, too much even perhaps. Lucas tries to cramp so much stuff in it that he totally passes by the crucial story elements. That is my main gripe.
Even brilliant stuff, at least I thought that was brilliant, people totally miss. If you look at the separatists: tehy are formed by trade federation, banking clan, techno union... all the major power houses of the galactic economy and with a strong political influence.
Palpy has united them secretly in the Separatists, knowing he will totally wipe them out with his clones. I though taht was brilliant. But you hardly get it, only by rewatching the films and reading the books you pick up this subtlety... And yet, even that brilliance is totally lost in all the visual mayhem and boring convo scenes that are about a lot, but not about what's really at stake.
Well, I do think we are entitled to expect a bit more from SW that from people like Joel Schumacher of Scientologists...
And about the jedi... yes, I know they are calm and emotionless.... Makes you wonder why Lucas made them to be that way. Why are detached people interesting to make a movie about???? WTF... movies are about emotion... and now the main characters are characters that are not supposed to have attachments or emotions...
And apart from that, they are also quite dumb. They don't see much coming. Thanks for the Dark Side, it clouds everything rendering the Jedi not only emotionless but clueless as well... Now, we never got this idea of Jedi from the OT. What we learned about Jedi most, prolly in the entire saga, is in Empire, during Luke's training. Not only do these scenes have the most memorable lines of the saga, but it tells us something what Jedi are about. In the PT all we see is boring people in robes waving their lightsabres around in a very casual fashion... oh, and losing them a lot too.
All in all, the PT is flawed. I'll love it as part of the saga, but they are very very far from what they could have been. A movie like Avatar, even though also quite flawed storywise, made a much bigger impression on me that the entire PT. It made me feel like I did when I first saw the OT: it took me to a world that was credible.
And since the PT universe is quite different from the OT one, I can easily say that Lucas failed to transport me to this universe. It's too convoluted storywise, has lots of characters that are at first glance interesting but have no relevance at all (grievous, Dooku, Maul), it's too sterile in look, too unconvincing...
My analysis of Tatooine had more to do with the fact of the statement made about "Oh, Anakin and Obi-Wan don't react to the intesnse heat on Mustafar." What are they supposed to do though? Here's a thought...
"Hang on Obi-Wan...I know we're in the midst of the grandest fight of all time, but I shall be needing a moment to catch my breath from the intense exhausting of this heat." Point is, I far more believe that Anakin and Obi-Wan would be able to fight on a planet like Mustafar, then I'm able to believe that people could survive day after day on a planet like Tatooine.
We never see Luke appear to look hot and sweaty, and it's more disgusting to think they probably never shower or take baths there because we don't see where they even get water to survive. But maybe they don't need water to survive because it's a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away. It's science fiction.
I do agree that the OT has more depth and better characters, but I also believe that the PT does several things that actually strengthen the OT as well. This is where people overlook some pretty awesome stuff.
Take this for example. We all say the duel on Mustafar is void of any emotion. While I don't necessarily agree with that, I think this fight completely strengthens the moment in ANH when Vader says "When we last met, I was but a learner, now I am the master." (6th grade Dialogue btw, but we'll brush it off because it's the OT) But the point is, before hand, we never knew what exactly that meant. They met at some point in time, but when, where, over what exactly? Now when you finally get to that moment, there's more depth. There's background, depth, and you understand what Vader means when he says that. Sure, it worked all these years before Episode III came out, but at least it provided background to it, and that's exactly what the PT was. A background story, which is most likely why it fails to most people.
So while certain things of the PT may seem bland, it becomes quite genius when you hit moments of the OT and can finally draw a connection. And whether or not people hated "kiddy Anakin," knowing that the tryant behind the black mask was once an innocent slave boy with asparation to become a Jedi and not a Sith, adds more depth to the character. And who cares if things like the pod-race doesn't add any depth, it's freaken amazing to watch, and fun. That's why I always say, take the movies at face value for what they are, and they can be very enjoyable.
You have every right not to be happy with the PT. I understand. All I'm saying is that I understand what these movies are and what they weren't trying to be either. They are providing the "backstory" to the eventual "story" we all knew and love.
Last edited by Sith Master X on Jan 7th, 2011 at 07:34 PM
The difference is, when he wrote the ORIGINAL movies, he was still hungry and was trying to make something that would change the history of movie-making... which he did.
20 years, and 6 billion dollars later, he decided he needed to be relevant again, and decided to go back and tell the story of the most powerful Jedi ever, and his subsequent fall from grace. The PT relied too heavily on CGI and was geared towards kids, it seems. No real substance, cheap gimmicks and lame jokes (see all of 3PO in AoTC).
It's just a completely different set of movies. Sith was the best of the PT, and even that was...rushed. They tried to cram too much into it. One second Anakin is arresting Palpatine (having Mace do it) and then in the next scene he's slobbing the knob of the darkside. They should have started TPM when Anakin was a teenager. We never got to see him actually do anything with the force that was that impressive. They just simply lack.
And really, I can like and dislike whatever I choose, and your opinion on doesn't really mean dick. Don't ask people's opinions if you're going to cry and tell them to go away.
The thing is, I know I can come across as odd at times for supporting the prequels. I do understand everyone's viewpoints on them, and I get what Queeq is saying, I really really do.
Disliking the prequels doesn't mean you're not a true Star Wars fans. It means you're an extremely passionate SW fan that expects incredibly high standards, and when you get something different and extremely far from what the originals were, you're bound to be let down. I understand that. But the great thing about myself, is that I never forgot what it's like to be a kid again and to be dazzled by amazing scenary and incredible landscapes. I enjoy Lucas as a visual story teller, which is precisely what he is, and what he's best at.
But, it's nothing I haven't said 1000 times on here already. lol There are reasons to like and be dissapointed with the prequels, and it's a shame that most people find all the flaws, rather than all the good points as well, and it's a bigger shame that we have to label these movies as "bad" for the pure sake of the comparison to the OT. The prequels had plot holes and unanswered questions, but Lucas is only a creator, not a god, and he couldn't possibly be perfect with this series. Almost every movie in existence has flaws, a plot hole, inconsitency or something else wrong with it. That is the very nature of filmmaking.
The PT doesn't live up to the OT standars, but hell, they are far better movies than the likes of say "Chronicles of Narnia."
Last edited by Sith Master X on Jan 7th, 2011 at 10:49 PM
Yeah, well I must say the flaws of the PT become more and more obvious when I rewatch the movies. There are maybe things to discover in the visuals, but I do find a great lack of depth in the characters. And that's what a lot of non-SW fans dislike about the movies as well, while they can enjoy something like Avatar.
And as for Anakin's 'development' I must say the PT doesn't add a whole lot more to the OT's remarks about Anakin. I would have loved to see a great hero we could cheer for, deciding to go for the Dark Side. I felt that was what the PT should have explored. We see a little yippeeekayeee-kid with lots of 'good tricks' and then we switch to a grumpy, sulky complaining brat... who then turn to evil. Well, duh...
I always imagined a much deeper story. the elements in the OT are there: a loving teacher that fails his best friend, whom he loses to the Emperor, plus the guy had a wife... he must have been such a great guy but also terribly conflicted to give all that up... PLUS the question of offspring was obviously an issue in the OT... Yet, neither Anakin or Palpy know of Padme's pregancy... I just don't understand how so many great dramatic leads from the OT led to something so emotionless as the PT, with so much forced drama that bears so little relevance to the plot points.
Anyway, it's what we have. All we can hope is that Lucas doesn't keep changing to the OT to match the rather inferior PT... I'd prefer he'd do it the other way around.
Both trilogies jumped around all the time, at least every 5 min there was a scene wipe, and all of the scenes had bearing on all the stories. Please watch the OT and PT again. the scenes simply follow the major characters on their adventure. example, empire was luke, and the falcon and vader and lando.
attack of the clones had anakin doing his thing and obiwan doing his.
How can you say all those characters mean nothing? I'll be the first to admit i would of loved to have seen darth maul in all the episodes. but he was still there to move against the jedi. dooku was there to lead the separatists and start the war for sidious and to assist in the turn of anakin, mace windu was a catalyst to help turn anakin. Jango fett was used to assassinate padme to push her away from the senate to let palps in and obviously used to create the clones (which we heard about in epIV) Sebulba? you could compare him to biggs in ep IV he was a character that served his purpose.
of course jar jar and quigon mean nothing in the OT, it's 20 years later and are out of the picture and any way the story revolves around the skywalkers and obiwan and yoda.
What i got from ATOC was the clone army ordered by syfo dias, but since he was killed i came to the conclusion that dooku assumed his identity (jango did say he was recruited by a man named tyranus) and that is dookus sith name Lord Tyranus.
Anakins turn rushed? What about Luke's training in empire? he goes out to jedi camp for a few days and is ready to face vader? (did not notice this till i was older but that seemed rushed)
any hoo back to anakin, he's been pissed ever since mace and yoda said he wouldn't be trained in episode I.
He's annoyed at obiwan for holding him back and he hacks down the sand people. and he kills dooku. remember that sidious was manipulating him from the start, as soon as he became a padwan till the end and the show this in epII and ep III
what was weird about his turn? Again sidious was manipulating him and did say that he can save padme but to make sure he has anakins full loyalty he says they have to work together to obtain this power.
To me Palps was the one who manipulated the midiclorians in Shimi to give birth to anakin. as he kind of stated it in the opera scene when he mentions darth palagerious. (spelling)
End Battle long and Boring? what were you watching? People have done nothing but speculate on that battle and how grand it was going to be ever since Vader said "When last we met i was but the learner now i am the master" and i think they totally delivered on all aspects.
The pod race is the thing you mention about TPM? what about the final light sabre battle? that was fantastic. Umm Anakin and Obi-wan were good friends which was established in dialogue and their actions in ep II and III, they did care for one another. At any rate what is Ben suppose to tell Luke? Your father was a douche and killed the jedi and younglings and choked the life out of your mother (depending what you believe)
To me the whole separatists and the trade federation story was pretty obvious and not lost in the visual mayhem in any way.
The movie was made to be in a very grand and wide scope with many planets and races and characters to show the republic in all it's glory, then when you get to ep 4-6 its more dark and militaristic due to the empires rule.
Wow a movie like Avatar made a bigger impression on you? That was the height of crapfest.
1. which you acknowledged already the story sucked.
2. the visuals IMO were nothing spectacular i saw the same in episodes 1-6!
3. I was transported to other worlds in other movies like Alien and Aliens, star trek, pitch black, total recall, and star wars the same as avatar, if a sci fi movie can't do that then there is a problem.
4. CGI creatures in star wars especially the clone troopers looked better and more believable than the na'vi.
the only thing avatar had going for it was the 3D floating jelly fish and embers. Tron was a better 3D experience (FYI given a choice i would go for a 2 D show)
Regardless of how we feel about the characters in the PT...fond or not so fond of them, that fact that we're still analyzing these people 6, 9, and almost 12 years after these movies were released, is living proof that the Prequels kept Star Wars alive and gave us all something to talk about.
We don't talk about or analyze characters from the movie "Lost in Space" "The Fifth Element" "The Day The Earth Stood Still" etc....because they didn't have the same sort of impact on us. Yet here we are all these years later challenging certain characters and their motivations...why they would do the things they did, and the reason we do that is because we care about them whether we believe so or not. It's this "care" that sparks frustration. It's no different then a parent complaining about their child because they're following the wrong path, or doing wrong in their eyes and aren't living up to their full potential, but you love that child no matter what, even though you find their biggest flaws.
People may not have loved Anakin as a kid in Episode I, but I wouldn't believe it if someone told me you weren't rooting for the kid during the pod-race as he is racing for his freedom without being aware of it. It wasn't only an awesome sequence, but it meant something to the actual story. However, little things like that get passed off as "another CGI excuse." This however, is Geroge's way of having fun and telling a story visually and in an exciting fashion. This is why I always say, forgive George in the dialogue department...and acknowledge his strength as an excellent visual story teller.
Last edited by Sith Master X on Jan 8th, 2011 at 04:45 AM
And there you have the problem: we have to conclude a solution which bears no relevance to the story, has no consequences for the Jedi or Anakin or Ob1. We have to CONCLUDE a POSSIBLE solution for something that is ireelevant. Why shoudl we care whre the clone army came from now?
Maybe Luke's training was rushed... heck, we didn't know how Jedi were trained then. It's only the PT that made JEdi-ness into a life long training. But the cutting away and back at least gave us the impression it lasted a while. I think according to SW chronology it lasted a few months. But at least his training was lengthened cinematically.
So why was Anakin's fall rushed. Let us analyse.
1. Anakin finds out Palpy is a Sith. He is angry, wants to kill him but Palpy manipulates him out of immediate action.
2. Anakin rushes to Mace, tell him Palpy is the Sith they have been looking for (and ever since his humiliating defeat against a Sith in AOTC his anger would have been strong enough to want to kill him, he loved killing Dooku after all).
3. Anakin angry with the way palpy has manipulated him, says he's the only one who can kill him. But Mace refuses to take him with him.
4. Anakin decides to follow Mace, sees him in battle with Sidious.... and cuts of Mace's hands... Okay, don't quite follow his thinking
4. Then he falls back in near despair, shocked by his action - What have I done???
5. Instead of exacting his revenge on Sidious, he falls down on his knees and pledges allegiance.... WTF?????????
6. Next Palpy tells him: Oh, I don't know how to save people from death but maybe together we can. And Anakin goes: okay, sure, whatever you say, kill younglings, sure no problem.
This is total crapfest. Emotionally and logically this does not make any sense. It's ridiculous. That's why it's rushed. Lucas wants to have him feel the attraction top the dark side, his doubts, a bad action, regret and and final irresistance to the Dark Side all in a couple of minutes.
THey fight a lot and very long but not much happens beside a lot of jumping around...
Again, looks beautiful but it's long and what it's all about, I have no idea. Whatever the outcome of the fight... it's doesn't seem to have much relevance to the rest of the story. Two thing can happen: either Maul gets defeated or he wis. Well, he dies... so? So Palpy needs a new apprentice... well.... golly, poor man. If he wins, nothing changes because by that time, the viceroy has been take captive.
This fight too: there is no drama in it. Nothing's really at stake during the fight. The only reason we watch this is so QGJ can die... and then, here we have to make a lot of expositionary jumps of thought.... then OB1 will have to train Anakin... so Anakin can go wrong... so Anakin can become Darth vader..... right... he has to become Darth Vader because the OT needs him to be that way, and OB1 will have to train him so we need an excuse... okay.... So QGJ has to die so OB1 can train him and.... fail...???? Well, where do we see that OB1 is a bad teacher, worse than QGJ (who called OB1 much wiser than himself)?????
Duel of the Fates is great in music,and visuals... But storywise it's completely obsolete.
Avatar was a box office hit... Obviously a lot of people shared my experience of a believable world created by CAmeron. And the Clone Trooper may 'look ' better. Whcih is easy because their armour have no need of natural texturing, the Navi do. But at least the Na'vi have emotions and I was impressed how well that worked. The Clone Troopers are just pawn moved around the board, no emotions, just a cool suit. How dare you compare the two? Nobody is falling in love or arguing with Clone Troopers, emotionally they are dead and therefore storywise not relevant. They have the same relevance as the bows or even the banshees in Avatar. There is no comparison.