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Why fangirls love to ruin good characters?
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Bwa Ha Ha
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That's another thing: All the convoluted betrayals served only for character (de)construction and plot(???), but we don't really get to see the other characters react to them.

Well, I can see Norrington thinking of dying to protect his OTL as a 'noble death', but certainly not in the way it was executed. A character like his deserved and epic pre-death fight scene.

The whole 'beautiful memory before death' seems like such a waste... He got to 'remember' it for, what, a minute? Then he died. -_-


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Old Post Mar 1st, 2011 02:32 AM
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[QUOTE=13249787]Originally posted by Bwa Ha Ha
That's another thing: All the convoluted betrayals served only for character (de)construction and plot(???), but we don't really get to see the other characters react to them.

Pretty much. Time and tide, luv. I mean, they made a huge deal of Sparrabeth in DMC and than all we got is Jack brushing it aside and Will going "Oh, silly me I thought you loved Jack" and Elisabeth going "Ha,ha" or something. Well, it would be more fun if that`s what they said because they mostly were biting lips and had hard time articulating anything. Teen angst with non-teen actors, you know the drill.

Well, I can see Norrington thinking of dying to protect his OTL as a 'noble death', but certainly not in the way it was executed. A character like his deserved and epic pre-death fight scene.

I`d say he loved her so much he let go of noble death aspirations just to let her live. So not only he died for her, he died the way that from his military POV was not a worthy death. But that didn`t matter to him because her well-being mattered more. So when he stabbed Jones, it was his last-breath attempt to add some heroic dignity to the proceedings. She was save so he could do something "selfish", just for himself.

One has to wonder what such love would have been like if given a chance.

quote:
The whole 'beautiful memory before death' seems like such a waste... He got to 'remember' it for, what, a minute? Then he died. -_-


That`s how you see it but not how he does. For him, that minute meant everything. You are forgetting that he knew he`d die and that shuffles priorities. People who are affraid yarn for immortality, those who aren`t prefer "beautiful memory". Also mind that the kiss wasn`t meant for her to remember him but only for him to remember it. He doesn`t try to bind her to him but sets her free with it. Pretty much, it says "If you have any guilt about not giving me anything, be at peace cause you gave me this". So he sets her free to live and from guilt/regret. And then William binds her in decade(s) long celibacy wait and pretty much pisses all over Norrington`s (and Jack`s efforts) to give her complete freedom.

Look, I`m not defending writing here but it isn`t entirely without merrit.
He didn`t switch sides only because of her. Hearing about Swann`s murder was a huge one because Swann was his father figure or, more precisely, affectionate father figure which he likely didn`t have before meeting him.

Also, when Beckett gave him back his sword, that reminded him of his old life as a protector of citizens, unlike what he has become as Beckett`s right hand in tyrany that suspended all rights and prosecuted all civilians on arbitrary basis.

Finally, he never mentally recovered from wrecking Dauntless and all those people aboard, hence why he resigned from the Navy and pursued privateer "redemption". Notice that when he brought the heart, he didn`t try to negotiate reinstitution into Navy. He wanted the privateer position which is a complete downgrade but from his POV, he didn`t deserve to be a Navy officer anymore. Just a chance to serve his country again somehow. It was Beckett who made him an Admiral on his own will and under EITC banner. So Norrington likely took it as complete severing of Navy ties (aka his good self) until his sword reminded him and then everything snowballed from there. Elisabeth was only the last straw in the build up to turn against Beckett. But I agree that they should`ve have done something epic about it because the character was much more importan that Ragetti and Pintel and M&M who got more screen time and all of it without any real meaning.

Ok, something fun to cheer you up. We know that when one dies at the sea (which he did), one goes to underwater heaven/hell/whatever where Calypso is. One can also escape in a flash of green light . I guess it`s easier for green-eyed people - think Barbossa - kinda like if eyes are mirrors to the soul than green eyes are mirrors to the flash of green which means a soul came back to the world of living. So how long you really think he`s going to stay there? Would wolf like that follow sheep souls in the water and boats? I doubt it. Most importantly, would a woman like Calypso who spent her last 10 years servicing drunk pirates pass on something as rare as a fearless hot young Admiral? What wexes all men is a woman but what wexes all women is a man. rolling on floor laughing

Old Post Mar 1st, 2011 01:09 PM
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Bwa Ha Ha
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Heh heh, that last bit IS pretty cheerful after all that...

By the by, I agre with you on everything except... I honestly don't think he knew he was going to die just then. He probably knew he would before long if he stayed on the ship and they figured out he let the prisoners escape, but I doubt he actually saw Bootstrap as that much of a threat. I dunno. What makes YOU think he knew death was imminent?


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Old Post Mar 2nd, 2011 04:50 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Bwa Ha Ha
Heh heh, that last bit IS pretty cheerful after all that...

By the by, I agre with you on everything except... I honestly don't think he knew he was going to die just then. He probably knew he would before long if he stayed on the ship and they figured out he let the prisoners escape, but I doubt he actually saw Bootstrap as that much of a threat. I dunno. What makes YOU think he knew death was imminent?


He knew he was toast because he betrayed "that side" when he let the prisoners go. So short life expectancy was a given, didn`t really matter if it was few minutes later or few hours/days later. And don`t forget that he seemed to have had a sort of a death wish. He said to her but it does not absolve me from my other sins. Most likely wrecking Dauntless and its crew, attacks on other ships (as the Admiral he pretty much approved Dutchman and other fleet ships attacking whoever he found fit) and and civilian executions (again, military executed them and he was the cheif military officer means his approval was a must) were those sins. The movie didn`t dwell into it but you can kinda put two and two together. So Bootstrap ot not, he really didn`t care when, how, by whom. I mean, it`s hard to analyse such a short time with the character whose motives, background and psychology are only hinted but never fully explained like with other characters.

His death is what I call Rowling death as opposed to Tolkien death, which would`ve been more appropriate. Tolkien deaths are always big epic emotional,etc moments. Rowling, OTOH, wants to show death as something that is sudden, random and mostly not for songs to be sung about. Hence why many deaths in HP are just that - pointless, why did this happen? type of a deal that is fairly realistic. But POTC and realism? Eh, they shouldn`t have gone there.

But my major beef is that Bootstrap did it because I sense that there`s some perverse message here but I can`t pinpoint what or why. I mean, Norrington saved Will during the crossing from England and then he let Elisabeth go with Will and even acknowledged Will`s skill in forging swords (while city dumbasses thought it was his drunk boss who made them) which surely should`ve been enough to get him customers for his own enterpreunership, and finally let Elisabeth escape from prison. So why did they think it was a good idea to have Bootstrap of all people do him in? He was good to Bootstrap`s immediate family so I just don`t get the irony. It was bad from every POV especially narrative one. Not a revenge, not justice, not mercy kill, nothing. One big WTF.

If I had a chance to grill the scribes about atrocity that is AWE, my major 3 themes would be:

a) why did you think having Elisabeth wait like a nun for decade or so, married to a freakin severed heart and not a person, was a good way to conclude this plot? Who thought that Will asking her to wait should be seen as a romantic thing and not as a mind-boggling Dark Ages sexism, selfishness of the highest order and complete failure on his part to understand Elisabeth`s character and drive? Why did you think that oat of celibacy was a perfect way to cap off Elisabeth`s Freedom story? Who thought that this ending proves Elisabeth and Will are perfect match and not Elisabeth and Jack (who would never have asked her to wait nor would have Norringotn for the matter but Sparrabeth was a huge deal in DMC so I`m focusing on that)?

b) Why did you build up Norrington as a major player in DMC only to completely drop the character in AWE despite the fact that character development was a big hit with fans and one of most compelling in the trilogy? Who thought that anyone cared more about M&M defecting to pirates side (means you wasted your script on wrong characters)?

c) Why did you think it was a good idea to build up anticipation of all-out war only to have two ships spin on some whirlpool while 100 + other ships didn`t lift a pinky and just watched? And whose idea was to turn Breathren Court into slapstick baffoons?

In conclusion, on all 3 accounts, WTF WERE THEY THINKING?

Last edited by Sparrabella on Mar 3rd, 2011 at 12:20 AM

Old Post Mar 3rd, 2011 12:09 AM
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Bwa Ha Ha
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Yeah, he did know he was gonna die, I just never figured it to be just right then. However, you do have a point about him having a bit of a death wish in AWE... So I guess he may have even sort of been welcoming it in his own little way?

Well, thinking back on the first time I saw Bootstrap kill him... It just made me hate Bootstrap, though that's kind of unreasonable as Bootstrap was 'part of the ship' at that point. So I guess the point was just... Irony. Except that there's different kinds of irony, and this kind was just... Not good.

a) Heheh... The 'married to a heart' comment made me laugh, but it IS basically what happened. She's supposed to be a single mom lugging around a heart for ten years and devoting all her time to their imminent son. Not the most ~romantic/meant-to-be of scenarios.

b) Absolutely! I remember thinking as I watched for the first time: "WHY are they still onscreen? What's happening over there? What about over there? *scene change* NO! I don't care about this either!" All in all, a lot of the movie focuses on characters/places no one really cared about.

c) Complete agreement, and also: Now that you brought the buffoon thing up, I'm thinking they figured it wouldn't do to have Jack be the only silly pirate around, but I do think they overdid it...


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Old Post Mar 5th, 2011 04:01 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Bwa Ha Ha
Yeah, he did know he was gonna die, I just never figured it to be just right then. However, you do have a point about him having a bit of a death wish in AWE... So I guess he may have even sort of been welcoming it in his own little way?


To a degree yes (I call it the Eowyn syndrome) but he is someone who`d take responsibility and try to redeem himself rather than just take an easy way out and kill himself. I mean, after he wrecked Dauntless, he was on self-destruction path (drinking, whoring in Tortuga) but not to the point of falling on his own sword. We know he doesn`t fear death so death is no problem for him but it`s responsibility he didn`t want to run away from. besides, killing himself would be self-serving and he prefered to serve others first.

quote:
Well, thinking back on the first time I saw Bootstrap kill him... It just made me hate Bootstrap, though that's kind of unreasonable as Bootstrap was 'part of the ship' at that point. So I guess the point was just... Irony. Except that there's different kinds of irony, and this kind was just... Not good.


Bootstrap plot was completely unsympathetic to me. He leaves his wife and son to go pirating (I see a pattern here, as Will also thinks women should wait for their men who are God knows where doing God knows what) while lying to them about what he really does. Than he takes Jones`s offer to join his crew. How about manning up and refusing? Yep, gold cruse is a big a$$ suffering but it`s your problem no? Man up. Ok, so his son is schemed into service on FD and Bootstrap suddenly remembers to behave like a father. Not 18 or so years ago when his son needed one but now that he is a grown man who should get independent from his parents. Again, man up, don`t reveal who you are (because it`s a shock, OK?) but help regardless. yet he reveals himself because, let face it, it isn`t love but the fact he is totally screwed and has nobody left to care for him so his son is suddenly welcome in his life. Stellan did inject humanity and made him more likable than the script did but based on everything that is written about the character, everyone`s better off without him. I`m kinda pissed at Jack for thinking so highly of Bill knowing that Bill left his family. C`mon, not as good man as you give him credit for, Jackie.

Anyway, Will being a goody-two-shoeser naturally goes overboard with what kind of help he`ll provide and Bill doesn`t tell him not to try to kill Jones. No "Promise me you won`t stab the heart". Which is exactly what he should have told him since Waywern hinted at what happens if you do. And then he starts going crazy and killing the man who did for his son more than he ever did. Completely random and stupid. Finally, he stays aboard FD to make up to Will. Lmao. No, seriously. Lmao. Where would you go without Will, old chap? You stayed because you have nowhere to go, lol. And his stay aboard the FD is huge plothole because FD must have a captain but not the crew. The whole point of being CotFD is to be alone for 10 years until one day and then 10 again. No chat buddies and that sort of thing. Just dumb character altogether. They clearly wanted a Star Wars homage here (Vader, Luke, Emperor) and then didn`t finish it.

quote:
a) Heheh... The 'married to a heart' comment made me laugh, but it IS basically what happened. She's supposed to be a single mom lugging around a heart for ten years and devoting all her time to their imminent son. Not the most ~romantic/meant-to-be of scenarios.


It`s a complete bulls*** that abstinence crowd (which Twilight brought out of the closet in force) buys as ultimate proof of love. But what to expect from a romance based on the thinnest of paper thin foundations? Elisabeth`s "love" for Will is based on one thing only - her pirate fetish. Not on who he is ( a guy who prefers honest living, has no interest in pirating and is bigger virgin than she is) but who she wants him to be (because once upon a time he wore a pirate pendant) and what he never becomes (bodice-ripping rake who does darring-do`s for living that rock the establishment which she, for some reason, dispises so much). OTOH, his "love" is based on the fact that she is beautiful, unattainable and once saved his life which is enough for him to build a saint-like image of her which is totally contradictory to what she really is ( selfish, dishonest, horny temptress).

So when Beckett interrupts their marriage, he (temporarily) saves them from the biggest mistake of their lives which already started to rear its ugly head when her come hither looks and moves were rebuffed in favor of swordfighting lessons. In short, complete mismatch. Had it not been for his CotFD obligation that keeps them apart from learning how wrong they are for each other, and thus keeping the fantasy alive, they wouldn`t have lasted. Anyway, movies do a great job at (unintentionally) outlining this because of the above mentioned zero common ground and because Jack emerges as the figure who can make her dreams a reality (save for bodice-ripping because he is such a pillar of sexappeal and smooth talking that women rip their bodices as well as his when they see him).

Unlike Will who wouldn`t do it without proper wedding, Jack figures Elisabeth would in a heartbeat and proceeds to open her mind about it. And not just sex. Elisabeth wants the life of adventure but Will is not an adventurer or pirate or even a professional hero. He is an accidental hero if Lizzie needs it (because he has too much time on his hands and not much to be responsible for) but end of COTBP showed that they were settling down, and in DMC, Beckett`s men break into Will`s shop to arrest him indicating he went back to his old job so adventure is no more on the menue. Not exactly as sexy as having a real pirate hubby (Jack) or pirate hunter/military hero hubby (Norrington). Men who, you know, do heroics on daily basis, not once in a blue moon when wifey is in distress. stick out tongue But back on topic, Jack makes her a Pirate King thus fulfilling her ultimate dream. Heck, Sao feng makes her a captain of the pirate ship. What did Will give her in that regard? Nada. Told her to wait and gave her a son so she cannot run wild.

So instead of having a real man for a husband, either a pirate or piraty Navy guy, she chooses a surgically removed heart. Which is poetic justice cause Will was never a bodily type like her anyway, just OMG immaterial love. Longing looks, promises to wait, more waiting, more separation, more longing. Heck, he made her wait for decade(s) and gave her the heart to remind her every day that she must wait. So immaterial hubby is what she gets. Not at all what she strived for (freedom to slake her lust among other things which Mr Pirate and Mr Navy would know how to satisfy well considering that, unlike Mr Virgin, they have long experience in that department) but apparently that`s what she settled for. Oh, man. I mean, this is such garbage that begs the question how the heck they went from "No to corset" to "yes to chastity belt". Did the writers get split perosonality or some Bible belt preacher wrote the script and forced them at the gun point to sign it as theirs? I simply can`t explain.

quote:
b) Absolutely! I remember thinking as I watched for the first time: "WHY are they still onscreen? What's happening over there? What about over there? *scene change* NO! I don't care about this either!" All in all, a lot of the movie focuses on characters/places no one really cared about.


As far as unnecessary scenes go, my major beef is with M&M defecting subplot. I mean, who the heck cares? The only character whose switching to pirate side anyone cared about was Norrington and they screwed the pooch here. As for Pirate Lords just standing there and not trying to engage other ships in fight, it completely missed opportunity to introduce different styles of fighting. That would have been something because surely Chinese pirates fight differently from African or Middle Eastern,etc. Could have been amazing action spectacle. But, again, without Norrington escaping they couldn`t have pirates pull a legitimate military offensive. Epic fail.

quote:
c) Complete agreement, and also: Now that you brought the buffoon thing up, I'm thinking they figured it wouldn't do to have Jack be the only silly pirate around, but I do think they overdid it...


Jack is a silly pirate with a mind of a genius which is why he works. These buffoons were just that, buffoons and useless to boot. No distinctive personality. Just different clothes, accents and nationality but one big caricature and not at all funny to begin with. Plus, this was the meeting of Pirate highest leadership and they behave like Tortuga bar brawlers? These are men and women that command respect and fear because? These are men and women who are freedom`s only hope??? Epic fail. In a movie that opens with a hanging of a child, world`s most feared pirates are Jar Jar Binks! Created to appeal to 3 years olds. And as I mentioned in previous paragraph, they weren`t even given a chance to fight and show different kinds of badassness. Nada. Total waste. heck, Sao Fang played by a freakin martial arts legend Chow Yun Fat wasn`t given a chance to show his fighting prowess. Serious misfire this movie is. (I so need Yoda smilie)

Last edited by Sparrabella on Mar 6th, 2011 at 03:52 AM

Old Post Mar 6th, 2011 03:38 AM
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Bwa Ha Ha
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I completely agree on everything here, with the only downside being that we can't really discuss what an epic fail AWE was without repeating the same stuff.

We could move on to critique specific scenes or something... I dunno. What do you think?

By the by, you're very good at writing explanatory/persuasive essays. Did you study it, or is it just natural? I love it!


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Old Post Mar 7th, 2011 04:50 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Bwa Ha Ha
I completely agree on everything here, with the only downside being that we can't really discuss what an epic fail AWE was without repeating the same stuff.


That`s totally true. So moving on in T- 5...4...3...2...1...done. Happy Dance

quote:
By the by, you're very good at writing explanatory/persuasive essays. Did you study it, or is it just natural? I love it!


Thank you! I guess I just love to rant. laughing It`s easier when you are passionate about subject matter.

quote:
We could move on to critique specific scenes or something... I dunno. What do you think?


Absolutely. I`ll start with something that`s been bugging me for a long time, namely Titanic paralels. If you watch COTBP after Titanic, you`ll see that Elisabeth is created with Rose in mind. Similarities are really eyes popping but they really don`t work in COTBP as well as they did in Titanic. Reason being, Rose is disgusted with her class with a good reason, while Elisabeth`s "yarn for freedom" doesn`t make much sense cause nobody is preventing her from anything. Lets take a closer look:

Rose is forced into an arranged marriage by her cold mother who openly blackmails her into it by playing on her daughter`s guilt. Basically, she says that they are bankrupt and if Rose doesn`t marry Cal, the mother would have to work as a seamstress and how terrible that would be? This is punctuated by her tying of Rose`s corset to drive the point that Rose is trapped with no choice but to comply. Furhtermore, her fiance is a total douche who slaps her around, doesn`t let her express her personality, has complete disdain for her interest in arts, is a bigot and even has some mean looking, gun carrying henchman. All this suffocates Rose to the point of contemplating suicide by drowning. We can see why she was driven to that state of mind and why she wants to break free.

OTOH, we have Elisabeth who wants to break free from her equaly wealthy society but it is absolutely unclear why. Unlike Rose`s mother, her father dotes to her every wish and is genuinely kind and carrying but most importantly, he does not force her into arranged marriage. The decision is entirely on Elisabeth. This is something that fans always forget but at no point Weatherby orders Elisabeth to marry Norrington. In fact, when she accepts the proposal conditionally, her father immediately picks up on that it isn`t a love marriage for her and tries to tell her it would be OK not to go on with it.

Swann favors Norringotn because he secretly wants a son and Norrington is a son he never had. He also knows that he loves Elisabeth and thinks (wrongly) that Elisabeth loves him back. In short, Swann supports the couple because he thinks it`s a love marriage. But he supports them, he doesn`t forces the decision on her. When he talks about promotion, it`s pure father`s pride. he loves the guy, knows that he loves his daughter, thinks his daughter feels the same and he wants to make her happy by showing that he is happy for her choice too. So when he says to Elisabeth He fancies you and that`s punctuated with tying of the corset, the impact is not like in Titanic. There is no pressure or reason to feel suffocated. If she feels that there`s any, that`s her problem but Weatherby does not force her to do anything.

It`s easy to see why Swann would make a mistake and think that Elisabeth loved Norrington. She obviously didn`t flirt with anyone, her pining for Will was unknown to him cause it was interest from afar, not a close friendship to give him hints (her conditional acceptance of the proposal was the first real hint to him what is really going on) , she and Norrington moved in the same circles since he was working closely with Swann (very likely was invited to diner at the house many times), and she always had a keen interest in pirates, seas, naval strategy, ships, which is Norrington`s job. Finally, father`s pride. Like I said, he is the son Swann never had, which is why he favored him over much smarter matches.

Now about the smart match. IMO, if Weatherby wanted a smart match, he would ship Elisabeth to London to attend London seasons and find herself at least a Lord or even some nobility. That he sticked to the local boy is saying that he wasn`t looking for status but genuinely felt there was love.

More to come when I get back from work. big grin

Old Post Mar 7th, 2011 01:19 PM
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Continuation...

Ok, so why the heck she felt restrained? God knows and maybe not even him. I`d say the chick is just a spoiled brat who doesn`t know what she wants and who just likes to go slumming. You know, the grass is greener. Unlike Rose who had a good reason to break away from her mother, why the heck Elisabeth totally forgot about her dad until she remembered he existed when she ran into him in the Land of the Dead or whatever that place was called? What was she thinking that would happen to her dad after letting her escape? Walk free, sip tea like nothing happened? What an insensitive selfish b**** and a fool to boot.

Ok, one may say if dad was as good as I say he was (and he was!), how about her fiance, perhaps something was wrong with him. After all, Rose had a good reason to escape from Cal and everyone, so much so that she took Jack Dawson`s name as hers (Rose Dawson) forsaking her own. Which made perfect sense in the end of the movie because Jack saved her in every way a woman could be saved. But when Elisabeth takes Turner`s name to deceive Barbossa, the effect is lost. Yeah, yeah, it`s supposed to mean she`s married to him in her mind and heart but it sounded like Coughripoffcough. big grin

Anyway, back to Huxley vs Norrington. On top of being such a major pr*ck that he gives Jon Mayer run for his money, Huxley is also most useless individual. He is waiting to inherit family money by doing nothing except likely playboying. With a fiance/future hubby like that, who wouldn`t have a nervous breakdown and thought that jumping into freezing ocean is a better option? Actually, tossing him is the best option but Rose was seriously deperate so she took it on herself. Heck, being unable to breathe when such jerk proposes to you, on top of fighting tight corset, would make perfect sense. But that`s Rose. Elisabeth, OTOH...

Why the heck she fainted? Yeah, I know tight corset but they used is as a metaphore that, IMO, seriously doesn`t stick. Because there is no Huxley to justify her overraction to proposal and allergy to higher society and their male members. Unlike Rose, Elisabeth was sincerely loved by a military hero who turned out to be more open minded that she gave him credit for. Case in point, she was abducted by most notorious pirates (read:rapists, robberes,etc) and at the time when an unmarried girl`s reputation would suffer from being seen without a chapperone, this was totally and irrevocably ruinous. Disney movie or not, this has to be put in the context of the time. She was ruined. Done. Not good for marriage. Ever. Doesn`t matter if her honor was intact, that there`s shadow of a doubt was enough to cast her out. That it would likely be taken against her will mattered zilch. She was ruined. On top of that, she is found on a desert island in her underdress with a notorious pirate and womanizer Jack Sparrow. And what does her fiance do? Takes her back without flinching! That is unheard of in situations like this back in 18th century. That he never brought up the matter of her honor shows that his stance on this matter is forward-thinking. Obviously, against all expectations, he doesn`t put much stock in woman`s physical honor aka virginity. He isn`t one so she doesn`t have to be either. No double standard. Come to think of it, he became relaxed around her in DMC where both of them were officially ruined so that`s definitely a pattern. He doesn`t care. Honor no honor, he loves her the way she is. Which was proven when she escaped through the window to find Will and Norrington took her back again without question or threats. he wouldn`t try to change her. Unlike Rose who got a slap accross her face and broken plates after she was caught only dancing and drinking below decks. No suspicion of sex. Dancing and drinking, witnessed by Huxley`s gorilla.

Ok, so naysayers may go "Well, she is Governor`s daughter and he was after status so that`s enough to swallow pride". Nope. Status-conscious man wouldn`t take a ruined woman no matter who her father is and how much money she has. There`s plenty of fish. Being the butt of jokes because of the lady`s supicious honor is harder to endure than investing in courting of another smart match. he wasn`t after her status because he sincerely loved her and her father which is proven when he proposed after the promotion that put him on equal footing with The Governor. Not before. Very important to distinguish. If he did it before, than it could have seemed to Governor like he was trying to cash in. But earning his own status of the same rank only in different profession (Governor the highest government offical in PR, Norrington the highest military offical in PR) was like saying "I don`t need your wealth or name or prestige because I have earned all by myself". Which he did. We know that when he resigned, he was penniless because his military comission was his income. No plan B family inheritance and that sort of thing. Just his work. Unlike Huxley who wanted to keep Rose because he thought she was still wealthy (their bankruptcy was kept a secret from him by both Rose and her mother) and who was waiting for his father to die to get the money.

Therefore, when Rose spits into Huxley`s face, we cheer, it`s very cathartic (sp?). But when Elisabeth dumps Norrington in public, emotional center of the story switches from Willabeth to Norrington and stays there. It`s very downbeat. Because break up is more relatable than fairytale romance that doesn`t happen in real life. This is much more closer to home and everyone experienced it one way or the other and by that time everyone realizes that he`s a good man too. I still cannot fathom why the writers did that considering that it did take away sympathy for Willabeth and made rooting for them hard since their happiness was earned on another good man`s misery. It really left the bad taste in the mouth and rendered her fight for freedom from their marriage completely pointless since he set her free from the obligation as soon as he realized she didn`t love him. When he says so this is where your heart trully lies? you know he would never propose to her if he didn`t think her heart lied with him. No forced marriage here. He thought it was love marriage for both of them.

Oh, and in DMC, oh my God. I mean, have you seen a more beautiful man? Jesus Christ that deleted scene Map Is Finished. Wow. Holy s***! I mean, he is intensly gorgeous in DMC but in this deleted scene, it`s like having an orgasm for the first time. I`m talking about 7 Disc Blue Ray BoxSet, disk 7. O.M.G. No Cal Huxley here. I seriously don`t get Elisabeth character and contribute it to bad writing. Elliott and Rossio have no clue how to write women. Good job with male characters, some more than others, but Elisabeth is a complete misfire.

Last edited by Sparrabella on Mar 8th, 2011 at 04:20 AM

Old Post Mar 8th, 2011 04:18 AM
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Bwa Ha Ha
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Well, then. I must say, you are INTENSELY passionate about the subject matter. smile

And sorry I was gone for a while, had some stuff to attend to. Back to business!

I was watching Titanic just the other day and remember thinking of POTC, but I couldn't place why exactly. Duh! It's what they were trying to emulate! No wonder it wasn't so obvious, they absolutely failed at it!

You make very good points and bring up something I always was a bit disconcerted by: Did Elizabeth care so little for her dad that she just ran off and didn't seem to spare him a thought until she realized he was dead? That is selfishness of the highest degree.

He never seemed particularly demanding about the whole Norrington marriage. In fact, the only thing he ever seemed to actively discourage was her fascination with pirates, and even that he copes with.

And, like you said, Norrington honestly thought she meant that proposal acceptance thing she said when they rescued her from the island. If anything, that final scene is downright heartbreaking.

LOL And I love your little bout of flailing at the end there. stick out tongue Sadly, I don't have the DMC deleted scenes, so I can't even begin to imagine...


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Old Post Mar 9th, 2011 06:30 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Bwa Ha Ha
You make very good points and bring up something I always was a bit disconcerted by: Did Elizabeth care so little for her dad that she just ran off and didn't seem to spare him a thought until she realized he was dead? That is selfishness of the highest degree.


One of reasons why I don`t like Elisabeth is that she doesn`t care for anyone. Even her obsessive pursuit of Will is more OCD than caring and her regret over feeding Jack to the Kraken was more her ego`s inability to accept her unperfect, dark side than genuine compassion. That was for her once we undo the locker thingy, I`ll be automatically a good person again. All really strong female characters in literature and movies have moments where you can see they care for more people than one just their love interest. In Titanic, Rose showed care for Mr Edwards, other passengers,etc. Scarlett O`Hara, another character that POTC referenced (I call POTC GWTW where Scarlett and Ashley hooked up) showed care for Ashley, Melly, her parents, Tara, Mamie, just to name a few. Ellen Ripley cared for her cat, her crew, Newt, Hicks and other marines and finally Bishop. But Elisabeth is so insensitive and lacks vulnerability that all those other heroines have which makes them relatable and appealing. Just an all around annoying, impossible character.

quote:
And, like you said, Norrington honestly thought she meant that proposal acceptance thing she said when they rescued her from the island. If anything, that final scene is downright heartbreaking.


This is how she should have been written too. He is a badass character who is also vulnerable and we see him at his most vulnerable as well as at his most badass several times in the series. All the best fictional heroes and heroines have that mix - Rambo, for example, has two memorable breakdowns that don`t take anything from his manliness, quite the contrary, make him more a man than if he was just a killing machine. Same goes for Maximus the Gladiator, Braveheart, Aragorn, Rhett, Jack Sparrow,etc . Women - Scarlett, Rose, Sarah Conor, just to name a few. They are believable because they feel and react like real people do. But Elisabeth the Pirate King who always breezes through every mess she creates without a scratch that lasts longer than 3 minutes? mad

quote:
LOL And I love your little bout of flailing at the end there. stick out tongue Sadly, I don't have the DMC deleted scenes, so I can't even begin to imagine...


Lol, I did get carried away by the male beauty here but the scene itself is something they should have put in DMC because it is really important. It`s the continuation of the heart delivery scene and it`s a great character moment for Beckett and especially Norrington (very emotional reaction to the promotion and return of his sword plus emoting green eyes close-up) and we see Davey Jones without his hat (he wears a pirate bandana underneath, very cool). Also it forshadows the war that they promised in AWE. I can only imagine they cut it because it didn`t feature any of the three main stars so it was deemed expendable. But it`s really great and completely finished with the score that resembles Inception theme (when FD appears at the harbour, the beat goes Inception). Hopefully someone will post it on YouTube so you can see it and swoon. Or get the blue ray. Prices are down so they can be found for very affordable and DVDs are becoming obsolete anyway. The industry is pushing blue like crazy, that`s the future.

My other major deleted favorite is the scene in AWE where Beckett and Jack recall why Jack was branded (he liberated human cargo or as Jack says People are not cargo. ) It`s an extended version of Jack and Beckett convo where Beckett thinks he roped Jack into betraying the Breathren while Jack has it all planned ahead. That`s such an important piece of character info so I`m baffled they cut it out.

But back to GWTW reference, I do like Jack`s Once was quite enough rebuff of Elisabeth`s attempt to kiss him again. I call it Jack`s Frankly my dear, I don`t give a damn. I`m a huge Sparrabether but I love the fact that although he admired her cunning when she handcuffed him, he also stopped being interested. The chick is just too much and I like to think that he never really forgave her. After all, he came back overcoming his self-preservation and proving he was a good man, and she punished him for it! That they fetched him from the locker only cheapened her because once her deed was undone, she went back to being her selfish, careless self who didn`t even apologize. But that he didn`t show any interest afterwards, save for fulfilling her dream to become the ultimate pirate and saving her precious Ashley, I mean Will, shows that he was done with her. Not what we Sparrabethers wanted but it works as a character development for him.

IMO, she had to give Will instructions when they finally did the nasty. Put your hand here...no not that high...lower...more left...stop...squeeze...no, not like a sponge! What cna you do, the guy read only Hot Iron Manual. At least she read bodice rippers. Jack, of course, knows Kama Sutra by heart, hand and everything else (he was yoga meditating in DMC while Norrington was digging the chest so you bet he checked out India`s other most famous contribution to the world) and Norrington serves others not only himself so he would go down on her a lot to ensure her pleasure. stick out tongue (this smilie is an intended pun).

Ok, so propose what we discuss next and i`ll think up some passionate critique. big grin

Last edited by Sparrabella on Mar 10th, 2011 at 01:49 AM

Old Post Mar 10th, 2011 01:46 AM
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ToddianGirl
Rumors are EVIL!

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Location: Fort Worth Texas, USA

Thank you so much Sparrabella for clearing some things up now I have a better understanding. Okay I have 2 questions first when Elizabeth was saying good bye to everyone, walking up to Jack he did not look at her first he seemed sad, then she goes into the whole it would never had worked between us, Jack answers and say's "Keep Telling Yourself that Darling" second when Jack was in Jones locker and he "Killed" one of his multiples before that his multiple say's "Perhaps if you gave the man another chance" Jack Say's "Shall I?"("Stabs his multiple) and say's "That Sort of Thinking Got Us Into This Mess" Do you think he was referring to Elizabeth in that line? And what do you make of the whole "Tell Telling Yourself That Darling"


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Old Post Mar 15th, 2011 02:30 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ToddianGirl
Thank you so much Sparrabella for clearing some things up now I have a better understanding.


You are welcome!

quote:
Okay I have 2 questions first when Elizabeth was saying good bye to everyone, walking up to Jack he did not look at her first he seemed sad, then she goes into the whole it would never had worked between us, Jack answers and say's "Keep Telling Yourself that Darling"


Keep telling yourself darling is from my POV forshadowing of how she will spend the next decade - trying to convince herself that choosing Will over Jack was such a great idea and that she and Jack so wouldn`t work. Which is bulls*** and his quote pretty much says that only in a backhanded way. The significance of the interchage here is that Elisabeth is finished with adventure life and is taking the life of a devoted wife, except that her husband is a severed heart in the chest, not a real man. She did not have to leave BP and the crew but spend that decade with them, doing pirating and all kinds of stuff she always fantasized about. But that would also pose a threat to her faithfulness to Will. So in order to remain faithful for a decade, she is removing herself from temptation to stray (Jack) and he figures that out and mocks her. Than she proves his point when she leans over to kiss him, to which he slaps her verbally that he isn`t interested after what happened last time. Plus, she made her choice. You want to live like a nun, I`m not gonna change that. You chose, I respect it.

In short, the quote means "You screwed yourself over with this choice and you know it and will spend a decade repressing regret over such a bad decision." I mean, Jack gave her freedom of choice. Norrington gave her freedom of choice. Will took it from her. One can say, "But she didn`t have to agree so it was her free will!" No it wasn`t free because he asked her. He was cursed and misrable and asked her to wait so he has something to look forward to. It`s selfish and also manipulative because how could she say No? It was his call to tell her not to wait. He was cursed, she shouldn`t have been with him. It`s his burden to bare not hers. He should have taken his heart with him, instead of entrusting her so she is reminded every day that she must wait. And while waiting, she will think of her old life quite often and Jack will pop up on her mind and she will repeat aloud "I made the right choice, it would never have worked between us" because she knows that she screwed herself over but it`s too late to fix it. So no life of adventure, no husband, nothing., She ended up with nothing.

quote:
second when Jack was in Jones locker and he "Killed" one of his multiples before that his multiple say's "Perhaps if you gave the man another chance" Jack Say's "Shall I?"("Stabs his multiple) and say's "That Sort of Thinking Got Us Into This Mess" Do you think he was referring to Elizabeth in that line?


I think that he was refereing to Elisabeth in that he gave himself another chance to prove he was a good man, because of her, and when he did, not only she tricked him in order to kill him but it was in such a way that denied him a dignifying death worthy of a good man. I mean, tied to the mast and helpless. That`s not dignity. But he managed to release himself and die a hero, which her foul intent would rob him of. So it was definitely about her since she motivated him to get in touch with his honest streak more often and than punished him for being a good man. I don1t think he ever forgave her, love or no love, she screwed him over in more ways than one. And then, she screwed herself over when she chose the eunuch. Serves her right. I mean, the whole irony of her yarn for sexual liberation only to end up living in a decade long celibacy and her yarn for adventure life as a pirate, only to end up living a quiet life as a doting single mom. That1s not what she fought for.

So, yeah, Jack`s retort sums up all that.

Old Post Mar 15th, 2011 11:42 AM
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ToddianGirl
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Location: Fort Worth Texas, USA

Yup Elizabeth got what she deserved all right that what she gets for marrying the pansy! This song is perfect for both James and Jack for Ms Elizabeth


Grenade-Bruno Mars

Easy come, easy go
That's just how you live, oh
Take, take, take it all,
But you never give
Should of known you was trouble from the first kiss,
Why were they open?
Gave you all I had
And you tossed it in the trash
You tossed it in the trash, you did
To give me all your love is all I ever asked,
Cause what you don't understand is
Id catch a grenade for ya (yeah, yeah, yeah)
Throw my hand on a blade for ya (yeah, yeah, yeah)
Id jump in front of a train for ya (yeah, yeah , yeah)
You know I'd do anything for ya (yeah, yeah, yeah)
Oh, oh
I would go through all this pain,
Take a bullet straight through my brain,
Yes, I would die for ya baby;
But you won't do the same

No, no, no, no
Black, black, black and blue beat me till I'm numb
Tell the devil I said hey when you get back to where you're from
Mad woman, bad woman,
That's just what you are, yeah,
Youll smile in my face then rip the breaks out my car
Gave you all I had
And you tossed it in the trash

You tossed it in the trash, yes you did
To give me all your love is all I ever asked
Cause what you don't understand is
Id catch a grenade for ya (yeah, yeah, yeah)
Throw my hand on a blade for ya (yeah, yeah, yeah)
Id jump in front of a train for ya (yeah, yeah , yeah)
You know I'd do anything for ya (yeah, yeah, yeah)
Oh, oh
I would go through all this pain,
Take a bullet straight through my brain,
Yes, I would die for ya baby;
But you won't do the same

If my body was on fire, ooh
You d watch me burn down in flames
You said you loved me you're a liar
Cause you never, ever, ever did baby...
But darling Ill still catch a grenade for ya
Throw my hand on a blade for ya (yeah, yeah, yeah)
Id jump in front of a train for ya (yeah, yeah , yeah)
You know I'd do anything for ya (yeah, yeah, yeah)
Oh, oh
I would go through all this pain,
Take a bullet straight through my brain,
Yes, I would die for ya baby;
But you won't do the same.
No, you wont do the same,
You wouldnt do the same,
Ooh, youll never do the same,
No, no, no, no




quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sparrabella
You are welcome!



Keep telling yourself darling is from my POV forshadowing of how she will spend the next decade - trying to convince herself that choosing Will over Jack was such a great idea and that she and Jack so wouldn`t work. Which is bulls*** and his quote pretty much says that only in a backhanded way. The significance of the interchage here is that Elisabeth is finished with adventure life and is taking the life of a devoted wife, except that her husband is a severed heart in the chest, not a real man. She did not have to leave BP and the crew but spend that decade with them, doing pirating and all kinds of stuff she always fantasized about. But that would also pose a threat to her faithfulness to Will. So in order to remain faithful for a decade, she is removing herself from temptation to stray (Jack) and he figures that out and mocks her. Than she proves his point when she leans over to kiss him, to which he slaps her verbally that he isn`t interested after what happened last time. Plus, she made her choice. You want to live like a nun, I`m not gonna change that. You chose, I respect it.

In short, the quote means "You screwed yourself over with this choice and you know it and will spend a decade repressing regret over such a bad decision." I mean, Jack gave her freedom of choice. Norrington gave her freedom of choice. Will took it from her. One can say, "But she didn`t have to agree so it was her free will!" No it wasn`t free because he asked her. He was cursed and misrable and asked her to wait so he has something to look forward to. It`s selfish and also manipulative because how could she say No? It was his call to tell her not to wait. He was cursed, she shouldn`t have been with him. It`s his burden to bare not hers. He should have taken his heart with him, instead of entrusting her so she is reminded every day that she must wait. And while waiting, she will think of her old life quite often and Jack will pop up on her mind and she will repeat aloud "I made the right choice, it would never have worked between us" because she knows that she screwed herself over but it`s too late to fix it. So no life of adventure, no husband, nothing., She ended up with nothing.



I think that he was refereing to Elisabeth in that he gave himself another chance to prove he was a good man, because of her, and when he did, not only she tricked him in order to kill him but it was in such a way that denied him a dignifying death worthy of a good man. I mean, tied to the mast and helpless. That`s not dignity. But he managed to release himself and die a hero, which her foul intent would rob him of. So it was definitely about her since she motivated him to get in touch with his honest streak more often and than punished him for being a good man. I don1t think he ever forgave her, love or no love, she screwed him over in more ways than one. And then, she screwed herself over when she chose the eunuch. Serves her right. I mean, the whole irony of her yarn for sexual liberation only to end up living in a decade long celibacy and her yarn for adventure life as a pirate, only to end up living a quiet life as a doting single mom. That1s not what she fought for.

So, yeah, Jack`s retort sums up all that.


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Old Post Mar 15th, 2011 04:13 PM
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Sparrabella
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OMG, that song`s perfect! laughing

I wouldn`t say Will is a pansy. He`s a boy, not a man, which is why he didn`t pull a Norrington (read: do the the manly thing) in the end. Just take a look at the aftermath of Barbossa`s attack on Port Royal. The city is badly damaged, there are dead, wounded and likely alive people trapped under the rubble, so military is working overtime. The city is their responsibility and Norrington being highest ranking military offical is responsible for the city. So they try to establish safety and order, help the survivors, tend to wounded, bury the dead and figure out where the ship sailed. But William would have none of it because he cares only for Elisabeth so Norrington should drop everything and mobilize everyone in search of her. This is how a boy who obviously has too much time on his hands and too little responsibility thinks (he has no friends and family and I`m sure his drunk master remebers to feed the donkey). Screw the city (for what can I do about it anyway?), Elisabeth is all I care (tell that to some mom whose kids are trapped in the basement after the house fell down when canon hit it). It`s utterly insensitive and childish, not at all romantic. So the boy throws a tantrum at the man who has responsibility for thousands of people no matter how much in his heart he wants to spring into saving his love. And the man fulfills his immediate responsibilites first otherwise even his chick would have lost any respect for him no matter how flattering it may be if he said FU to the wounded, homeless, trapped,etc and rushed to save her over everyone else. She would lose respect. But the boy has no obligations to anyone and his job sucks so how hard it is for him to play a weekend adventurer? Not at all.

I pitty those poor souls who saw this as a contest in "who loves more, oh must be the guy who jumped into the rescue mission" (because, you know, he didn`t have to coordinate 30 + rescue missions going all over the city at the same time). And Elisabeth is a girl, not a woman, which is why she chooses a boy over a man.

Now Jack is a real man too. He may be on man-child side unlike Norrington who you can see was never a child, but soldier of the empire from the day he was born, but he is a real man nonetheless. He treats Elisabeth like a man would treat a woman. However, problem here isn`t just that Elisabeth is, unfortunatley, a girl who can`t appreciate a real man. What makes Willabeth so irritating to non-fans (aside complete lack of chemistry) is that she atributes all Jack traits to Will although he neither has them nor he ever pretended to have them. The guy simply isn`t a wordly, free-spirited seducer-adventurer that she in her crazy mind thinks he is. Which is why I keep comparing POTC to GWTW and Will to Ashley Wilks. Will is Ashley. We know that he isn`t a pirate nor will ever be yet Elisabeth thinks he`s the pirate of pirates. And since POTC is told from her POV, it`s irritating that we are forced to accept this without a single evidence in favor of it. It`s like Scarlett who always imagined that Ashley was something he was not alhtough everyone could see (the reader and other characters) that he isn`t all that and that they weren`t compatible at all. But she built this image of him that she held onto even though it ruined her chance for happiness. Same happend with Liz.

And now that we are on the subject of GWTW, if Norribethans ever wondered what Elisabeth and Norrington marriage would be like (if she kept her promise), just read GWTW. It would go down exactly like Rhett and Scarlett marriage. He loves her, supports all her modern endeavors, sexually satisfies her but she stubbornly won`t give him a chance emotionally and keeps holding on to her fantasy love who is too prudish to fool around with a married woman. So she thinks of him while in bed with her husband and sighs as in "I wish I was in Will`s arms" and Norrington isn`t stupid so they argue. He starts to drink openly, she starts to drink secretly. They have a daughter whom he loves like mad because she is his little Elisabeth, while she is somewhat reserved because the child has green eyes and chesnut hair and she wishes they are black. More arguing, more drinking, more rough drunken sex. She won`t have more kids. Locking the bedroom door does not have intended effect. New pregnancy. Fight. Miscarriage. You take a pick whether he finds a Belle Watling-type of comfort and whether the daughter dies in a freak accident with a pony or some other. Marriage over. Now she wants him back. It would go exactly like that.

Last edited by Sparrabella on Mar 16th, 2011 at 03:22 AM

Old Post Mar 16th, 2011 03:15 AM
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ToddianGirl
Rumors are EVIL!

Gender: Female
Location: Fort Worth Texas, USA

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Sparrabella
OMG, that song`s perfect! laughing

I wouldn`t say Will is a pansy. He`s a boy, not a man, which is why he didn`t pull a Norrington (read: do the the manly thing) in the end. Just take a look at the aftermath of Barbossa`s attack on Port Royal. The city is badly damaged, there are dead, wounded and likely alive people trapped under the rubble, so military is working overtime. The city is their responsibility and Norrington being highest ranking military offical is responsible for the city. So they try to establish safety and order, help the survivors, tend to wounded, bury the dead and figure out where the ship sailed. But William would have none of it because he cares only for Elisabeth so Norrington should drop everything and mobilize everyone in search of her. This is how a boy who obviously has too much time on his hands and too little responsibility thinks (he has no friends and family and I`m sure his drunk master remebers to feed the donkey). Screw the city (for what can I do about it anyway?), Elisabeth is all I care (tell that to some mom whose kids are trapped in the basement after the house fell down when canon hit it). It`s utterly insensitive and childish, not at all romantic. So the boy throws a tantrum at the man who has responsibility for thousands of people no matter how much in his heart he wants to spring into saving his love. And the man fulfills his immediate responsibilites first otherwise even his chick would have lost any respect for him no matter how flattering it may be if he said FU to the wounded, homeless, trapped,etc and rushed to save her over everyone else. She would lose respect. But the boy has no obligations to anyone and his job sucks so how hard it is for him to play a weekend adventurer? Not at all.

I pitty those poor souls who saw this as a contest in "who loves more, oh must be the guy who jumped into the rescue mission" (because, you know, he didn`t have to coordinate 30 + rescue missions going all over the city at the same time). And Elisabeth is a girl, not a woman, which is why she chooses a boy over a man.

Now Jack is a real man too. He may be on man-child side unlike Norrington who you can see was never a child, but soldier of the empire from the day he was born, but he is a real man nonetheless. He treats Elisabeth like a man would treat a woman. However, problem here isn`t just that Elisabeth is, unfortunatley, a girl who can`t appreciate a real man. What makes Willabeth so irritating to non-fans (aside complete lack of chemistry) is that she atributes all Jack traits to Will although he neither has them nor he ever pretended to have them. The guy simply isn`t a wordly, free-spirited seducer-adventurer that she in her crazy mind thinks he is. Which is why I keep comparing POTC to GWTW and Will to Ashley Wilks. Will is Ashley. We know that he isn`t a pirate nor will ever be yet Elisabeth thinks he`s the pirate of pirates. And since POTC is told from her POV, it`s irritating that we are forced to accept this without a single evidence in favor of it. It`s like Scarlett who always imagined that Ashley was something he was not alhtough everyone could see (the reader and other characters) that he isn`t all that and that they weren`t compatible at all. But she built this image of him that she held onto even though it ruined her chance for happiness. Same happend with Liz.

And now that we are on the subject of GWTW, if Norribethans ever wondered what Elisabeth and Norrington marriage would be like (if she kept her promise), just read GWTW. It would go down exactly like Rhett and Scarlett marriage. He loves her, supports all her modern endeavors, sexually satisfies her but she stubbornly won`t give him a chance emotionally and keeps holding on to her fantasy love who is too prudish to fool around with a married woman. So she thinks of him while in bed with her husband and sighs as in "I wish I was in Will`s arms" and Norrington isn`t stupid so they argue. He starts to drink openly, she starts to drink secretly. They have a daughter whom he loves like mad because she is his little Elisabeth, while she is somewhat reserved because the child has green eyes and chesnut hair and she wishes they are black. More arguing, more drinking, more rough drunken sex. She won`t have more kids. Locking the bedroom door does not have intended effect. New pregnancy. Fight. Miscarriage. You take a pick whether he finds a Belle Watling-type of comfort and whether the daughter dies in a freak accident with a pony or some other. Marriage over. Now she wants him back. It would go exactly like that.


WOW that was great! You basically summed it all up I agree Will is a boy and a very annoying one, okay so what if Elizabeth had an hot fling with Jack? During the time she was on the BP with him in DMC in her mind "Looking For Will" She points out that she wants to be married(She needs sex) Jack offers that to her with the whole perform a marriage on the ship. And why do you think Jack voted for her to be the pirate king? She calls out her own name, then Jack adds his vote for her Elizabeth responds with "What?" Jack answers with "Curious isn't it?" At the end of AWE she gives up her pirate life along with her job as Pirate King. Looking back on it I don't know why she was even given that title since she's gonna give up her all pirate life, her and Will should had NEVER gotten married I wish they didn't and Elizabeth was just on her own living her own life, and Will being the Captain of the FD.


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Old Post Mar 16th, 2011 05:16 PM
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Sparrabella
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ToddianGirl
WOW that was great! You basically summed it all up I agree Will is a boy and a very annoying one, okay so what if Elizabeth had an hot fling with Jack? During the time she was on the BP with him in DMC in her mind "Looking For Will" She points out that she wants to be married(She needs sex) Jack offers that to her with the whole perform a marriage on the ship.


First, thank you. I`m glad that you like my ramblings. Now, as for hot fling with Jack, they had a thing but it wasn`t a hot fling. It never happened in canon. No sex if that`s what you mean.

I thought I`d be married by now. I`m so ready to be married is extremly important because it didn`t specify "to Will" but was spoken in general and we know that it meant sex. Therefore, IMO, that was her disappointment with Will not wanting to consumate their relationship, which is what she was more than willing to do. T&T said in the commentary that she was frustrated with Will`s school of swordfight because she wanted to have sex instead. It means that she started to have second thoughts and warm up to other man because she and Will obviously weren`t compatible.

IMO, she matured fast which includes awakened sexual appetite while he lagged well behind in that development (late puberty). However, because of her pirate fetish developed in childhood and unfortunate coincidence that Will wore pirate medallion when he was a child, she projected her rakish, bodice-ripping pirate fantasy on him and spent good part of her life waiting for him to finally live up to it and he never did (I do not count their post-wedding day as fantasy fulfillment).

So I took DMC development with Jack as her realization that first love doesn`t have to be the only love and that one can be wrong about people because fantasy and habit that comes from it cloud one`s judgment. And pining for Will was her habit rather than anything else because they didn`t know each other well, hence why her fantasy mind filled in the blanks on what he was like and his did the same about her (and both were wrong). But those blanks were filled with charaacter traits that she found in Jack. Therefore, logical development would have been to move from first love daydreams to physically and emotionally intense and satisfying relationship with a man who is actually what she is looking for in a man. When Jack offers to perform a marr-i-age, we know it means sex, not a wedding ceremony. Which is a perfect rapport with her because she calls sex "ready to be married". It`s a great interplay that outlines that they are very much alike and would be good for each other. In the end, she makes major step when she kises him more passionately than she ever kissed Will because she wanted to kiss him. Deception aside, she wanted that kiss and that right there shows that she isn`t a type who would patiently wait in seclusion for her heart-less hubby to come back after 10 years. She was capable of wanting another man and being intimate with him (cause kiss is a degree of intimacy). That`s definitely moving on.

Now, at the same time, Will moves on too in that his father becomes his priority. Which makes sense because he was fatherless for so long and obviously needed a father more than he needed a wife. He definitely wasn`t ready to be married and that could stem from having no strong male figure in his life to have man-to-man talks with. IMO, natural progression for both characters would be that they got over childhood fantasy, realized that they aren`t for each other so Will finally has a chance to get to know his father (which is, ironically, what he got in the end) while Elisabeth and Jack get together.

Look, I`m no fan of Willabeth because it`s utterly forced for all reasons that I went in depth in several posts. If you build a story about a repressed rich English girl who wants to break away from repressed English society and especially from a marriage to a repressed English officer, and who sees pirates as incarnations of freedom she strives for, than you don`t pair her with a non-pirate who does not stand for any idea of living or POV. Non-pirate is superflous. It`s a pirate vs an officer because they represent two opposite POVs or lifestyles if you please that the heroine is torn between. So the story either ends with the girl falling in love with a pirate and finding happiness in his arms (which I call Hollywood version) or the officer proves he`s more piraty than she tought so she falls in love with him and finds happiness in his arms (which I call Bollywood version). But this "he`s a pirate but didn`t do any pirating but he is definitely a pirate because he had a pirate medallion but he works as a balcksmith but he is a pirate cause his father is but he never did any pirating" pirate... roll eyes (sarcastic)

quote:
And why do you think Jack voted for her to be the pirate king? She calls out her own name, then Jack adds his vote for her Elizabeth responds with "What?" Jack answers with "Curious isn't it?"


He fulfilled her major fantasy to be the ultimate pirate because this is his way of saying that he loved her. And he agreed that fighting was the only option but knew that motivational speechifying that works for Sons of Scotland doesn`t do jacks*** for pirates so he had to present the idea in his own way. I`m 100% sure he knew about Pirate King clause and just duped Barbossa into presenting the opportunity himself. So he gives her ultimate fulfillment of her dreams to be the ultimate pirate and she throws it away for the guy who isn`t even there for her.


quote:
At the end of AWE she gives up her pirate life along with her job as Pirate King. Looking back on it I don't know why she was even given that title since she's gonna give up her all pirate life,


I suppose that Pirate King is more decorative title except when it comes to declaration of war and parlay. But otherwise, Breathren Court votes on eevrything. Maybe PK presides or something but it gotta be mostly decorative. However, that`s not the point but what you have just said - she completely abandons the life she always wanted, now that she has pirate world`s respect and admiration, (I must put this in capital letters)TO WAIT FOR WILL! Not live with Will because they don`t need anyone else so wrapped they are in their own world of love but WAIT FOR WILL! FOR A DECADE! It`s just mind-boggling stupidity how she made that 180 degree turn in a matter of minutes. One moment, she was celebrating the victory, another moment, she was saying farewell and left to live on some island or whatever that place is. OK, it gotta be secluded cause she is on Most Wanted list now but c`mon, you have better protection on BP! Totally stupid. No sex, no career, no ambition, no friends, just single mom raising a son in the shadow of a FREAKIN SEVERED HEART! I don`t want to think what that did to this kid`s metal health.

That said, son as a plot device is totally out of the left field cause she never longed to have kids or be a mom. She wanted hot sex and adventurous life on a pirate ship, not exactly a place for raising kiddies. So giving her a son as some sort of a reward is ridiculous nonsense that has nothing to do with the character.

quote:
her and Will should had NEVER gotten married


Quoted for life. Not that they are married. I mean, does that look like marriage? They are exactly where they were 10 years ago - pining for each other from afar. Which just proves my point that they never grew up. Immature romance from start to finish, especially the finish.

quote:
I wish they didn't and Elizabeth was just on her own living her own life, and Will being the Captain of the FD.


Elisabeth should have been on her own. if they didn`t want to piss off Bloom fans, they could have had an open ending in which Will sets her free from waiting for him but doesn`t pull a 100% Norrington (as in leaves her in another man`s care, endorses her choice). So don`t wait for me but it`s up to audience to interpret what her life would be like.

Although pulling a 100% Norrington would be a nice full circle for Will`s character plus openly leaving her in Jack`s care could still be interpreted differently (friends, lovers, depending on what shipper you are) if there is no sunset kiss between them.

But I never understood why they thought making Will a CotFD was a good idea. They tried to force paralels with Jones that didn`t work because Jones`s love was unrequited. So Will doesn`t fit the bill. The point is to have a counterpart who can overcome the grudge and carry out his duty without emo s*** like heart-removal and gang-pressing souls into the service in order to take the rage on someone handy. So it should`ve been either Jack or Norrington since she chose Will. Which is why Will makes no sense at all.

Last edited by Sparrabella on Mar 17th, 2011 at 12:04 AM

Old Post Mar 16th, 2011 11:54 PM
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ToddianGirl
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Do you think that Will and Elizabeth's marriage is legit? I mean are they really married or not? I really don't think they are married in anyway that really counts. What kind of marriage is it? Their son only see's his father ONCE very 10 years(Same for Lizzy husband wise) I agree she's all alone with this damn heart that she's lugging around it's like a ball and chain that's forever tied to her. Where the hell does she keep it? What does she say if someone comes over her house and asks "Hey what's in that chest?" Elizabeth: Oh Just my husband heart! LMAO!


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Old Post Mar 17th, 2011 09:45 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ToddianGirl
Do you think that Will and Elizabeth's marriage is legit? I mean are they really married or not? I really don't think they are married in anyway that really counts. What kind of marriage is it? Their son only see's his father ONCE very 10 years(Same for Lizzy husband wise) I agree she's all alone with this damn heart that she's lugging around it's like a ball and chain that's forever tied to her. Where the hell does she keep it? What does she say if someone comes over her house and asks "Hey what's in that chest?" Elizabeth: Oh Just my husband heart! LMAO!


laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing

That`s exactly what happens when someone comes over. But, oops, nobody comes over cause Liz could be tempted to behave like a healthy woman age 20-30.

Even if Pope himself married them, that isn`t a legit marriage because they do not perform marital duties, do not live together, he does not support her and their son,etc. She is single and can call herself married woman as much as she wants but she is single. So, technically, seeing other man wouldn`t be considered adultery because that marriage is a farse.

Now, the movies established that Will sets foot on shore every ten years. They beat us over the head with one day ashore, ten years at the sea and the main music theme is named One Day. So One Day every 10 years it is. However, fangirls went ballistic so T&T issued some half-arsed statement on their old site that there was a scene where it is explained that if Elisabeth is faithful to Will, he will be free from service after 10 years and return to her. And Calypso would choose another man with the touch of destiny to be CotFD (not specified if it is a random person or character we know). BTW, no such scene is included in Deleted Scenes from 7 Disc POTC Trilogy BoxSet so go figure how much the director agrees with this crap.

But anyway, this clumsy cop-out doesn`t undermind the stupidity of waiting at all (a decade or decade x 10 is the same thing, she shouldn`t wait) but opens a can of worms so lets see how big can and how big worms:

a) Will`s heart is cut out. He cannot become a living soul without the heart unless it miraculously reappears in his body which would be far fetched. So he is to remain immortal since a living person cannot live without the heart. But only CotFD is immortal and when Will becomes free of service, and new CotFD takes position, he cannot be immortal. See the confusion? Their 10 years cop out doesn`t explain this plot hole. Quite the contrary, it creates it. So logical development would be either that he isn`t free but visits every 10 years, or that he drops dead once he sets the foot ashore and dies instantly free of FD since he seized to be the immortal captain.

b) We are beaten to the death with Stab the heart, become the CotFD, yet Elisabeth`s celibacy is suddenly going to lift that curse and put Calypso back in charge of choosing CotFD without a need for one to stab another captain`s heart. That doesn`t make sense in regards to movies mythology that states clearly that Jones created the curse and nobody ever mentioned anything about Calypso wanting to lift it. besides, she was free before Will "died" so she could have prevented heart-cutting if she thought it was unnecessary (which it was cause it was only Jones`s emo reaction to break up, not initial requirement for CotFD).

c) If Calypso chooses CotFD from now on, are they to cut their own hearts or not? And is true love`s celibacy the key for their freedom after 10 years or not? Never explained and certainly never even hinted in the movies.

d) So if Will is free thanks to his nun`s virtue roll eyes (sarcastic) why keep us in suspense who becomes next CotFD? Spill the beans to make the whole stupid pandering to fangirls more convincing. They`ll never find peace unless they see the replacement so lets have fun and theorize who candidates may be:

Jack Sparrow

Why it could work: Liz didn`t choose him so if you want a paralel with Jones, here`s a real one. He escaped from the Locker, so as far as touch of destiny goes, he has it in spades. He contempated the possibility to take over from Jones. He is the man of the sea unlike the blacksmith. Plus Scarlett and Giselle would always wait for him.

Why it wouldn`t work: Obviously, Tia has already assessed that her lover isn`t the right man for that tedious job for whatever reason (it`s a boring duty, Jack is a free spirit and being bound to the ship is not freedom)

Bootstrap Bill

Why it could work: He spent big part of his life under one or the other curse so that`s some touch of destiny, wouldn`t you agree? Plus he is a man of the sea and knows FD well.

Why it wouldn`t work: he doesn`t need to replace Will in order to set him free since Will`s freedom depends on Elisabeth`s sexual and emotional abstinency. Plus, the whole point of Will`s fight to free his father from FD would be rendered pointless (not that they didn`t render pointless many other stuff) if he remained bound to FD.

James Norrington

Why it would work: Unrequited love gives him the strongest paralel to Jones than other candidates have. He survived a hurricane and shipwreck and the writers said that Will`s ability to survive shipwrecks is touch of destiny. So if that`s how it manifests than Norrington has it too. Think of Will as Luke Skywalker and of Norrington as Pricess Leia. In every generation, two are born with a touch of destiny but only one actually fulfills it. And Will and Norrington are connected through Sword of Destiny. So some kid of destiny is really strong with this one. Plus he is also man of the sea and was an Admiral on FD where he died. P

Why it wouldn`t work: The Dutchman needs a living heart and Norrington is dead. He would have to escape from the dead first, like Barbossa, to qualify. Plus, he`s a warrior which puts his committment to ferrying souls without a chance to fight in question.

Hector Barbossa

Why it would work: once immortal man of the sea who escaped from the dead would know how to handle ethernity.

Why it wouldn`t work: immortality removes pleasures form one`s path and Barbossa is a hedonist. Calypso wouldn`t make a mistake of putting him on duty that he would run away from in a day (imagines Barbossa pouring water in his boots and runnig off).

Random unknown guy

Why it would work: doesn`t create new gaps in logic like appointmet of already known chaarcters.

Why it wouldn`t work: because 10 years cop out bulls*** doesn`t. stick out tongue

Last edited by Sparrabella on Mar 17th, 2011 at 11:44 PM

Old Post Mar 17th, 2011 11:36 PM
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ToddianGirl
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I agree 100% it had to be Will his destiny was to be the captain of the FD. I'm so glad it wasn't Jack, James or Barbarossa thank God for that. I remember being depressed over Jack and Elizabeth not being a couple but now I see that her and Will belong together cause they are so freaking depressing. Jack doesn't need her anymore like you said the min she married Will, Jack's want for her went out the window. I also see his "Keep Telling Yourself That Darling" line to her was "You made your bed now go lie in it." The more I'm understanding the more I really don't like Elizabeth as much as I did before she uses people for her own gain, also she never suffered any consequences of her actions. What do you make of her crying in Tia's shack after Jack died?(Yeah she killed him) Did she really feel bad or was it all bull? LMAO about Barbarossa pouring water in his boots and running! laughing


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Last edited by ToddianGirl on Mar 18th, 2011 at 04:42 AM

Old Post Mar 18th, 2011 04:39 AM
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