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Originally posted by Philosophía
Why would we discuss that in character discussion thread - in the comic book forum, where it's mostly story discussion related, instead of simply making a thread on the vs forum, and establishing the general consensus on what level both of them are?

I'm also not sure what you're trying to achieve here. You think that if it goes bad for Thor it would get lost in the character discussion thread and thus soon forgotten?

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Originally posted by Newjak
And just to sum up the answer for you. There is no better place to discuss a character story/abilities/anything else you want to talk about said character then in a thread already designed for the discussion of said character.

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Originally posted by Newjak
No I just don't see every time you wish to discuss a certain character's attributes and clarify them that we need make a completely new thread for them, when there is already a thread that could be used for that.

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Originally posted by Philosophía
When there are two separate boards, for two specific purposes - discussing comics and discussing comic fights, with the speed discussion clearly belonging in the latter then yes, there is a 'better place' - the one designed specifically for this type of discussions.

This is a special case, the Thor/Surfer speed discussion is a reccurent one in the forum - so I think having a few threads, out of thousands, specifically designed to discuss this, isn't really inappropriate. Or is it taking too much space from your screen? Tell us, so we can make you more comfortable.

This is an useless exchange. And my last post on this. I'm waiting for Raoul or Bada to come in, so that we can proceed.

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Originally posted by Badabing
Guys, I didn't make any rulings. I went through the thread and addressed the issues I saw and added a few of my own. I just wanted to keep the topic going.

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Originally posted by Starscream M
also, is the purpose of Vs forum to determine how WE think characters could perform or how WE THINK COMICS would depict characters?

ie...take flash vs thor as an example:

if we go by how WE think they could perform, perhaps a strong argument can be made that Flash wins majority quite clearly.

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Originally posted by Existere
fixed...

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Originally posted by Starscream M
that becomes almost entirely a debate of powersets then...and characterizations that have taken decades to build up become essentially null & void in debates

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Originally posted by TricksterPriest
The New Gods. It's high time you guys made the true form thing forum law. And I want Darkseid to get credit for crushing space/time and the multiverse in FC. The rediculous lowballing of DS and the rest of the new gods ends.

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Originally posted by King Kandy
Why would we want to make those the default when 99% of their appearances are not in that form?

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Originally posted by Black bolt z
Would character prep fall under this thread?

Because Reed, Doom, Thanos, or banner or anyone like that, even with like 10 min prep, always seem to get an auto win.

I'm not sure what would be done about it but it just seems like a topic up for deciding something about.

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Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Default? Nah. Not unless specified. But I want it acknowledged.

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Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Default? Nah. Not unless specified. But I want it acknowledged.

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Originally posted by Newjak
I personally think this one is covered but maybe some clarification could be used since it has mostly attained to speed thus far.

For me CIS and Full-Potential often seem to be brought in contrast to each other.

Thor full-potential would be too much for Hulk to handle, yet people constantly scream CIS that he would in fact fight in a manner that gives Hulk a chance.

Superman is much the same way Superman's wide breath of abilities make him too versatile for Hulk to handle but people argue that it is in character for him to try and sit there and let Hulk possibly net a few wins by not going all out at the beginning and I'm not just talking about speed.

This can be said for a number of characters.

My idea has always been that in Forum Fights we are trying to find out how characters would do against each other with them using their abilities to the best while not deviating from their core values such as not killing.

I've always felt that Thor/Green Lantern/Superman wouldn't really limit the scope of their abilities just tone them back to a level that wouldn't kill their opponents outright, or if they have a tactic such as BFR or incapacitating they could and should be allowed to use it in the beginning.

And that if we want to see more limited battles that is what stipulations are for.

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Originally posted by Starscream M
these rulings would seem to place superman and flash quite a bit above their herald peers...

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Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Existere's got a point here. It's a slippery slope, imo. We already have had plenty of fights devolve into powersets vs. powersets to the point where character and personality don't factor into the equation. It then becomes PIS if said character doesn't use everything at their disposal when said character really doesn't use everything at their disposal to begin with for the norm. Blaming it on the writers and plot and the "need for the story to be interesting" can be flimsy because we know creative writers out there can write stories fully or damn near close to fully exploring the entirety of a power set.

It's pretty tricky either way, because you're either going to have a character fighting out of character based off of something which isn't the norm nor should it be treated as such or you're basically interpreting the character to further your own agenda/argument over how the comics do, for good or for ill.

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Originally posted by Raoul

Clarification of CIS

Ok people, here are the finalised rules as regards PIS, CIS, and everything related to it.

PIS is, as always, off unless the thread starter says it's ON.

CIS, as was said before, is now a more diverse term, but is not as vague as before.

While CIS still exists in the form of characters like Rhino (who are just too stupid to know better), it also exists in one other form.

This is known as Character Inhibited Power. This applies to characters that have intelligence, like the Silver Surfer, Superman, and so on and so forth.

As Bada said:

"It's a self imposed limitation in certain circumstances which there is concern for civilians and buildings for the most part. It's not stupidity, it's a limitation set until the threat exceeds a certain threshold."

What this means is that people like the Surfer and Superman and so on will not use the full extent of their powers if it will endanger civilians. It doesn't, though, mean they will fight like idiots. The character's personality is an integral part of the match and dictates how they will perform. This is the crux of the rules we've come up with. It doesn't come down to powers, it comes down to the man or woman that weilds them.

In accordance with this, several factors come in to play in debates:

The Opponent, Basic Information, the Arena and the Character's Personality and Experience

Those four are key.

Example:

If Martian Manhunter fights say, Juggernaut.

MM doesn't personally know Juggernaut (Opponent). So he has Basic Information. This is categorised as being what the general public would know about the Juggernaut. It goes by averages. If that average man or woman on the street knows that Juggernaut is super strong, then MM knows. The average man or woman doesn't know, however, that the Juggernaut is weak against psionics. J'onn would approach with caution, not knowing whether Juggernaut was in his weight class, and not knowing the full extent of the man's powers.

However. If Martian Manhunter went up against Amazo, he would know to go for broke right at the start, because he KNOWS Amazo (Personality and Experience). He will use his speed, his strength, his shapeshifting. This is because if he knows what it takes to bring down Amazo, or he believes his standard attacks won't work. If J'onn was fighting Juggernaut, there would come a point when he would realise that normal attacks won't work, and would up his game. Any character that doesn't suffer from Rhino-esque stupidity is capable of this. Even with this, though, the Arena comes in to play. If civilians are in danger, J'onn won't shapeshift in to a fire breathing dragon. Juggernaut on the other hand doesn't care, so wouldn't hesitate to toss cars and trucks full of civilians at the Martian.

Examples:

Thor knows he can't out-brawl Hulk, so uses exotic powers sooner than he would against the likes of Superman, as Superman is an unknown to him.

Superman would go all out against Doomsday or Despero because he knows how powerful they are. Against the Hulk, he's going to take a few punches before realising he'll have to use something rather than slugging it out. He won't bathe the street in heat vision either, because there are civilians nearby.

It ALL comes down to the CHARACTER, not the POWERSET.

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Originally posted by Black bolt z
Seriously is there some sort of ruling on uber prep characters?

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Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Kandy: That Darkseid was responsible for the space/time collapse and the death of the multiverse under his own power. The ALE let him hang on while he was dying, and the reshaping is also due to it. But the fist crushing and choking the life out of the DCU? That's all him. Hell, Orion put the hole in his heart that sent him back in time, he deserves alot of credit too.