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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Episode IV, V & VI » Why did Kenobi choose to die?


Why did Kenobi choose to die?
Started by: Galan007

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Galan007
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Registered: Jul 2006
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Back the way he came?

Srsly though, considering Ben knew he was one of the last Jedi in existence, it seems like the best option would have been to avoid to conflict all together to further train Luke/preserve the order... Or he could have at least put up a better fight against Vader (it's not like he seemed outclassed in their battle, after all.)


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Last edited by Galan007 on Jun 3rd, 2011 at 05:04 PM

Old Post Jun 3rd, 2011 05:00 PM
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ares834
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
Back the way he came?[/B]


I guess. I always just took it that he thought he was powerful enough to defeat Vader.

quote:
Srsly though, it seems like the best option would have been to avoid to conflict all together... Or at least put up a better fight against Vader (it's not like Ben seemed outclassed in their battle, after all.)


True. But I think he realized after fighting abit that his chance against Vader was slim and he needed Luke to escape the station alive.

What I always wondered was why he didn't tell Luke about Yoda sooner.

Old Post Jun 3rd, 2011 05:05 PM
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Galan007
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Yeah, I just think it was a poor decision on Ben's part. Just imagine how far Luke could have advanced if Ben were alive and constantly training him over the years. He likely could have beaten Vader by the time ESB rolled around.


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Old Post Jun 3rd, 2011 05:08 PM
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steverules_2
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
Thing is, I don't need to prove a negative.

What happened to the no EU rule you mentioned earlier? wink


But you're still saying that Ben didn't teach him...you have no proof that Ben didn't teach him...so I would like to see proof that he didn't cause you seem pretty dead set on Ben doing nothing towatds Luke's progress in the force

I said it was mentioned in the EU, I never said I was using the EU as proof, so the rule I mentioned earlier is a rule I'm following otherwise this page would be filled with proof from the EU that Ben did in fact help Luke in using the force. Yoda mentioned that Luke was too old to be taught, maybe an older person is slower in learning...there's nothing to prove that but there's nothing that doesn't prove it.


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Old Post Jun 3rd, 2011 06:22 PM
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Galan007
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by steverules_2
But you're still saying that Ben didn't teach him...you have no proof that Ben didn't teach him...so I would like to see proof that he didn't cause you seem pretty dead set on Ben doing nothing towatds Luke's progress in the force
My evidence:
-We never saw Ben instruct Luke in the ways of telekinesis.
-Luke never mentioned having spoke to, and/or trained with, Ben between ANH and ESB. Therefore, we cannot assume he had, just because he was able to utilize [weak] TK out of necessity.
-Luke was shocked to see/commune with Ben on Hoth - implying that he hadn't seen Ben since ANH. You can disagree with that all you want, but Luke's facial expressions and tone of voice are clear.

Where the films are concerned, there's nothing that is indicative of Luke being trained by Ben after ANH. However, there is evidence that suggests he had not been trained during that time.


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Old Post Jun 3rd, 2011 07:32 PM
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steverules_2
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
My evidence:
-We never saw Ben instruct Luke in the ways of telekinesis.
-Luke never mentioned having spoke to, and/or trained with, Ben between ANH and ESB. Therefore, we cannot assume he had, just because he was able to utilize [weak] TK out of necessity.
-Luke was shocked to see/commune with Ben on Hoth - implying that he hadn't seen Ben since ANH. You can disagree with that all you want, but Luke's facial expressions and tone of voice are clear.

Where the films are concerned, there's nothing that is indicative of Luke being trained by Ben after ANH. However, there is evidence that suggests he had not been trained during that time.


My evidence:
-Sure we never saw it, but it was still obvious that Ben had been training him
-Why would Luke mention he'd trained with Ben...'Yeah guys I know we're in the heat of a war and stuff...but I have been training in the ways of the force with the spirit of Ben!' Luke had clearly been training with Ben, you don't teach yourself the force.
-Luke may not have seen the spirit of Ben before...I mean he heard him in ANH but he never saw him so it may have been the first time he saw Ben. He seemed surprised when Ben popped up on Dagobah in ROTJ.

There is evidence that he had trained...he knew to force grab, he had obviously been training to do that with Ben.


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Old Post Jun 3rd, 2011 10:49 PM
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Galan007
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by steverules_2
My evidence:
-Sure we never saw it, but it was still obvious that Ben had been training him
-Why would Luke mention he'd trained with Ben...'Yeah guys I know we're in the heat of a war and stuff...but I have been training in the ways of the force with the spirit of Ben!' Luke had clearly been training with Ben, you don't teach yourself the force.
-Luke may not have seen the spirit of Ben before...I mean he heard him in ANH but he never saw him so it may have been the first time he saw Ben. He seemed surprised when Ben popped up on Dagobah in ROTJ.

There is evidence that he had trained...he knew to force grab, he had obviously been training to do that with Ben.
You realize none of that is evidence, right? It is only your opinion.


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Old Post Jun 3rd, 2011 10:53 PM
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steverules_2
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It's not just my opinion it's pure common knowledge, there was no need for Luke to mention he was being trained by Ben because it would be useless information that has no part in the movie. We know he was trained because Jedi do not train themselves, they learn from their masters...Luke learned from Ben. No where in the movies did we once see a jedi train him/her self to use jedi force powers.

And in YOUR opinion Luke was shocked because he hadn't seen Ben since ANH, thats your opinion right there...no where in the movie did Luke imply or say that he hadn't seen Ben since ANH. He had been training with him, but obviously Ben knew that Yoda could train much better than he could.


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Old Post Jun 3rd, 2011 11:21 PM
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Galan007
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by steverules_2
It's not just my opinion it's pure common knowledge, there was no need for Luke to mention he was being trained by Ben because it would be useless information that has no part in the movie. We know he was trained because Jedi do not train themselves, they learn from their masters...
laughing out loud So it's not your opinion that Ben had been training Luke between ANH and ESB, yet you have no way to support this 'factual' claim without delving into EU material (which is also iffy)? Riiight. Furthermore, considering most of ESB involved Luke training with Yoda, mentioning that he had been training with Ben over the past few years would have been extremely pertinent to the plot.

More on point: not only did Luke manifest TK out of absolute necessity on Hoth, but it was barely enough to levitate his lightsaber a foot or two in the air. So IF Ben had been training him between films (which, again, was never mentioned), he did an absolutely horrible job. Horrible.

So either Ben was incapable of teaching Luke the absolute basics of force manipulation over the span of 3 years (highly unlikely), or Luke simply taught himself that trick. Hell, given the situation I'd be more inclined to believe that was the first time Luke had utilized TK at all.


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Old Post Jun 3rd, 2011 11:44 PM
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steverules_2
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
laughing out loud So it's not your opinion that Ben had been training Luke between ANH and ESB, yet you have no way to support this 'factual' claim without delving into EU material (which is also iffy)? Riiight. Furthermore, considering most of ESB involved Luke training with Yoda, mentioning that he had been training with Ben over the past few years would have been extremely pertinent to the plot.

More on point: not only did Luke manifest TK out of absolute necessity on Hoth, but it was barely enough to levitate his lightsaber a foot or two in the air. So IF Ben had been training him between films (which, again, was never mentioned), he did an absolutely horrible job. Horrible.

So either Ben was incapable of teaching Luke the absolute basics of force manipulation over the span of 3 years (highly unlikely), or Luke simply taught himself that trick. Hell, given the situation I'd be more inclined to believe that was the first time Luke had utilized TK at all.


Training him could just easily have meant he trained him with the lightsabre...I didn't see Yoda teach him how to use the lightsabre properly but more in the ways of the force. Yet when he faced off against Vader his sabre skills were very advanced for someone in the early stages. AND...if I re-call...Vader said to Luke in ESB 'Obi-Wan has taught you well.' So Ben taught Luke how to use the lightsabre...and then moved onto the force which by the time ESB came around was probably in it's early stages. By the time ROTJ rolled around he had improved his sabre skills and force skills. Heh, how about that...guess it was mentioned that he had trained with Ben.


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Old Post Jun 4th, 2011 04:27 AM
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Galan007
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by steverules_2
AND...if I re-call...Vader said to Luke in ESB 'Obi-Wan has taught you well.'
..Which is completely meaningless. There is absolutely no way Vader could have known (for sure) specifics like that... It's not like he'd been watching Luke's training regimen over the years.


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Old Post Jun 4th, 2011 06:18 PM
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steverules_2
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Vader knows the moves and styles of his old master and he's gonna know them when he see's someone else who has trained with Obi-Wan and learnt what he did. Not once did we see Yoda train Luke with his lightsabre...why? Because he was already trained...and Ben clearly trained Luke in sabre dueling and such. The point is Vader knows Ben trained him. After a while of Vader and Luke fighting I'm sure Vader thought to himself 'This seems very familiar.'


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Old Post Jun 4th, 2011 06:37 PM
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Galan007
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Man, you're applying WAY more to the movies then what we were given/shown. Do you not think it's possible that Luke learned the absolute basics of lightsaber combat from Ben (which is all we were shown) and simply expanded on it from there? It's not like Luke was incapable of rapidly progressing his force-related abilities, after all.

Hell, Yoda only taught Luke the basics of force manipulation during ESB, but by the time RotJ rolled around (a mere 3 years later), Luke was able to use rather advanced techniques, such as the Jedi mind trick, and force choke. Self-teaching was Luke's thing.


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Last edited by Galan007 on Jun 4th, 2011 at 09:03 PM

Old Post Jun 4th, 2011 08:58 PM
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steverules_2
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I'm just saying that Ben did train Luke...maybe not so much in the force part but in the lightsabre part yes. Vader knows Ben trained Luke, he's not stupid.


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Old Post Jun 4th, 2011 09:11 PM
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Galan007
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Ben did train Luke in sabers. We saw him doing so in ANH. After Ben's death, Luke simply expanded his abilities, based on the basic training he received - not because Ben's spirit was there continuously instructing him during that time. If that was/is the case, he [Ben] did an absolutely horrible job with his training (pre-Dagobah ESB Luke was pure weaksauce.)

Now after Luke got some actual training from Yoda, we saw how far he was able to progress his overall powerset in the 3 years between ESB and RotJ. The jump in power was HUGE. Like I said, self-teaching was Luke's bread and butter.


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Last edited by Galan007 on Jun 4th, 2011 at 09:30 PM

Old Post Jun 4th, 2011 09:24 PM
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steverules_2
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We barely Saw Luke's skill in the start of ESB, he managed to cut off the arm of that Wampa after he took that massive blow to the head...he must have still been groggy when he came to. Ben obviously taught Luke more in the ways of using a lightsabre...Yoda taught him nothing about it. Ben taught Luke to use the force by being able to block against that training ball. A little more than telekinesis. Just cause Ben died doesn't mean he wouldn't stop training Luke, he said he'd always be there for Luke near the end of ANH. He trained Luke, even when he was a spirit.


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Old Post Jun 4th, 2011 09:32 PM
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Galan007
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by steverules_2
he said he'd always be there for Luke near the end of ANH.
No, he said the force would always be there for Luke (ie. "The force will be with you... Always.")


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Old Post Jun 4th, 2011 09:43 PM
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steverules_2
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Well I still think he trained him after ANH


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Old Post Jun 5th, 2011 09:19 AM
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Ushgarak
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I have no idea why you make this so complex.

Ben was trying to get back to the Falcon but Vader was in the way. Once the fight started- and he noticed that Luke was staying to watch rather than getting moving- he understood he had actually now done all he could and it was better that he die then- and make sure Luke escaped- than anything else.

What the heck would running the other way have achieved? Back further into the Death Star? Other than just being a silly idea in general, it would only have meant Luke would have tried to come for him.

Meanwhile, saying Ben trained Luke after ANH is an assumption with no backing- best discarded.


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Old Post Jun 5th, 2011 11:48 AM
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Galan007
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
I have no idea why you make this so complex.

Ben was trying to get back to the Falcon but Vader was in the way. Once the fight started- and he noticed that Luke was staying to watch rather than getting moving- he understood he had actually now done all he could and it was better that he die then- and make sure Luke escaped- than anything else.

What the heck would running the other way have achieved? Back further into the Death Star? Other than just being a silly idea in general, it would only have meant Luke would have tried to come for him.
No, I understand that. I'm just saying that if Ben would have avoided the conflict all together, as opposed to dying, it would have been more beneficial for everyone.


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Old Post Jun 5th, 2011 07:28 PM
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