Actually, the template was a Galactically renowed bounty hunter and no one knew whether or not if he worked closely with Confederacy of Independent Systems. That was part of the point of a "secret" clone army. And it was made quite clear that Sidious was working this entire project from the shadows as part of his overall plan to "rule it all".
You answer it in the next sentence.
That's a forced contradiction. Ushgarak has all but smashed that line of reasoning. What it boils down to is what you, yourself, want the word "balance" to mean versus what George wanted it to mean. That is not a "plothole": that is you forcing a problem where no problem exists.
It was quite clearly addressed: "attachments" are supposed to be disposed of when becoming a Jedi. Additionally, Schmi told Anakin to let go of her, his life was elsewhere, and her life was on Tatooine. He promised he would come back and free her. Next, Schmi was freed, eventually, by Cliegg Lars so there was no reason to go back to free her until she was in danger (as far as "sensing problems through the force with his mother" was concerned). It wasn't until his "force nightmares" that he got the prompt to break the Jedi Code and go back to his mother. His trip there was a "secret"...and part of his downfall. It was pretty dang important stuff to his fall and to miss that is to miss pretty much the entire purpose of Vader's downfall. It was directly foreshadowed in the first film and realized in the second film. On this point, it is not anywhere close to being a plothole.
I feel the OT is worse, actually. So, if by level, you mean a lower level of errors, I agree. But I know that is not what you meant.
Well...the ability to farsee was being limited by Palpatine: that was stated in Episode III. Palpatine was that powerful. But they could sense the dark side: most of them did. They were scared/disturbed by it.
And why would they not know about an "ancient religion" that had been around for thousands of years, again? Of course they are going to know that the Sith worked in pairs. Yes, we know it is considered a "religion" because of the OT and because of what Palps said in the PT. You don't have to delve into the EU to explanations for how the Sith work.
But if you want some massive plotholes from the OT, let us talk about only ANH:
Luke retained the last name "Skywalker". Leia was not hidden away, at all, and, instead, kept out in the open as a Princess. Any force sensitive would detect that the force was strong with her: two very dumb and major plotholes. Here is why those two are plotholes: how did Leia avoid detection for all her life while being a major public figure? How did Luke avoid detection while living on his father's home world and while retaining his father's surname? Even worse...Luke was sent to live with his "Step-family".
Why did the Death Star have to circle around a planet to destroy a planet in the first film? Would not it have been much faster to just destroy that planet and then shoot the "secret" rebel base? The entire end of the film directly revolves around the idea that the Empire is so incompetent that it cannot think to blast through planets to quickly kill a rebel base before they have time to scramble their fighters.
Why didn't Leia's ship, at the beginning of ANH jump to hyperspace? It was never explained why their hyperdrive did not work. That is a very basic/classic plothole.
If Obi Wan is in hiding, why would he use the only weapon that definitely would pinpoint him as Jedi (his lightsber in the bar)? Even if he was not a Jedi, it would still raise suspicions to even use it...so why did he risk it? That is not explained in the films but we can guess it was due to him knowing that this was his last mission...but we should not have to write the story.
Why is the Emperor or Vader not able to see any of the events that happen in ANH that do not work in their favor? Luke, Leia, Obi Wan, and Yoda are never said to have the "block farseeing" ability that Palps did in the PT. In fact, this is such a major plothole that it makes the entire OT a giant story mess.
The Death Star can move at superluminal speeds...because it travels from one star system to another. So why did it take so long to maneuver around a planet? Why would they even drop out of hyperspace in such an dis-advantageous position? Space is not 2D: there is "up" and "down".
Oh, and another: why was Leia's ship NOT just traveling down from their pursuers rather than in a straight line? Is space really so flat that you cannot flee down? Where is the explanation for this?
It was revealed that Darth Vader was Anakin Skywalker in ESB when Darth Vader said he was Luke's father. Then that made Luke Skywalker's presence on Tatooine, and his name, and his family, all become suspect.
The only relevance those massive plotholes have with the PT is the relationship Anakin Skywalker had with the Lars family...which was fleshed out in the PT.
When Leia was revealed to be Luke's sister in RotJ, her title and public-ness made her running around (in a New Hope) without doubt/condemnation from the Emperor seem crazy. Again, that does not require anything from the PT to realize that it is an absurd plothole.
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Last edited by dadudemon on Dec 26th, 2012 at 12:26 PM
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Sorry, but they ARE PT plotholes. Tatooine was the arse-end of nowhere in ANH, a great place to hide, with Luke's name being pretty irrelevant if no-one knows who is there at all. It only became the first place Vader would look when it turned out to be his homeworld in TPM. As soon as Vader DID hear about Luke, then he knew.
You are also making a tremendous assumption that people with the Force can be sensed, which is not actually backed by anything from the films. That is no form of plothole, it is just you making problems up.
Much of your list is actually very weak. Like the others, I concur with the exceptionally clear status of the PT having much larger plot issues than the simpler OT.
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DDM Check these out. Would like to hear what you think of the many many plotholes and general dumbassery that pervaded the prequels, as listed within. No Star Wars fan should miss these, as I think that you have. Happy holidays.
I do concede the Tatooine portion, but that is not actually the main point, here. The point is, Luke Skywalker is hanging around, is a force sensitive, Leia is hanging around as a major public figure, and is a force sensitive. However, Tatooine is the HQ of one of the biggest Crimelords in the Galaxy: Jabba. It is hardly inconspicuous.
Where was the Emperor's far seeing abilities with Luke and Leia?
But...but....people that are strong in the force can be sensed as established by ANH when Vader sensed that the force was strong with Luke Skywalker.
I consider each and every point to be very strong, personally.
No thank you.
But it would be okay if you listed a few plotholes from one film. I'd respond to your posts.
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Last edited by dadudemon on Dec 26th, 2012 at 01:19 PM
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No they cannot- Vader's comment is in respect to Luke's constant dodging of his fire (and probably has nothing to do with power in the FOrce at all, seeing as proverbs about the Force are used as a proxy for 'good luck' comments in the films. When Dodonna says 'May the Force be with you', he's not implying all the rebel pilots are Force users). Vader was feet away from Luke earlier in the film and sensed nothing. At no point has any force user simply 'sensed' that someone else is strong in the Force. A lot of fans assume it, for no good reason, but it's not in the plot.
You are also making tremendous, Dune-esque assumptions about the predictive and sensing strength of the Force. In fact, these things are shown to be pretty limited in the films, as the 'I find your lack of faith disturbing' scene points out. The Emperor doesn't even predict or sense that Luke is on Endor, and he's top tier power level. These things are always vague and partial.
That Jabba lives in the arse-end of nowhere is neither here nor there. No-one is looking for anyone that far out. Vader doesn't even known he's meant to be looking. On Tatooine, Luke was invisible.
Most of the rest of you points are absurd stylistic nitpicks or irrelevancies. It's a very weak case that will convince no-one. The biggest OT plothole is how Han got to Bespin, and it's not a particularly important one.
I also think ROTJ ha a total plot failure with the interaction between the Rebel Fleet's and Luke's plotlines, but that's not a hole, just poor storytelling.
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Last edited by Ushgarak on Dec 26th, 2012 at 01:26 PM
I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of what happened in the trench.
I disagree, here, as well. Luke was able to farsee his peeps in danger/trapped in fairly spot-on detail when he was being taught how to do it by Yoda. Only if you delve into the PT do you get the type of description of farseeing that you describe. Basically, the PT, yet again, saves the day in fixing some of the plotholes in the OT.
I agree. But it is a pretty big deal that Luke was on a highly visible planet for almost 2 decades, unscathed, unnoticed, and unmolested by the Emperor and Vader. Especially if you consider that Vader, supposedly, scoured the galaxy for force users and force sensitives and wiped them out. Or am I remembering something from the EU?
So when did Vader learn that Luke was his son? That's a plothole, as well. And Luke was not invisible on Tatooine.: bullseyeing womp rats in a T-16 speeder is fancy stuff, imo.
I disagree, here, as well: they represent massive plotholes that really throw off the story in ANH.
Basically, Luke Skywalker is an anomaly in ANH. He creates many problems for ANH, in my eyes, after ESB.
I definitely do not think I can ever convince any of these PT-haters that their hate is hypocritical. Or rather, I don't think they'd admit it, here. But they will at least read the points and go "aha" and know that the OT is hardly this holy grail of perfection.
How Han got to Bespin can be explained by a "3-month" gap rather than a couple of days gap that it seems. But that is writing story to make things work that was not seen on screen...or necessarily implied: something that is generally makes that a "plothole".
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Well, I have no respect at all for your disagreement about the trench run scene, especially as it runs contrary to other things we see, so that just adds to my general dismissal for your entire viewpoint espoused here. The same thing goes for you using one single vague, semi-accurate vision of Luke's to try and go against the multiple times we learn that the Force isn't very precise- including as noted, a scene whose purpose is to makes this clear. Your analysis is not very good, and you just make things up to support yourself.
When did Vader learn that Luke was his son? Err, how about when the new Rebel hero Luke SKYWALKER was being celebrated, and turns out to be that person Obi-Wan was with?
Vader scouring the galaxy like you say is not in the films.
You calling the fact that GL wanted a 2-d type space environment for dramatic purposes a 'massive plothole' runs my contempt levels still higher.
You can look for my earlier posts on ROTJ if you want that detail. In any case, your intransigent nature here makes this argument pointless- it is so absurd, it seems to be trolling to me. We're off-topic, so it is time to get back to it.
I don't want threads opened about the subject either, as they would serve no useful purpose as the issue is so tremendously one-sided and not really a relevant debate.
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Last edited by Ushgarak on Dec 26th, 2012 at 01:46 PM
I have seen you have that same argument, about the trench run, with others. Your opinion is quite strong about that and I do not wish to turn this discussion sour. So I'll drop it. We disagree on this and we should move on.
Well, his vision was so precise that he knew exactly where to go: Cloud City on Bespin. That's hardly a vague vision, right? Also, both Yoda and Kenobi warned Luke that it was a bad decision. They were both right: it was a trap. How did they know such precise details about the future if farseeing was so shoddy? You know, man?
But, you see, that's a plothole. At no point was this seen or fleshed out in the films. No little scene where a report is given to Vader after Yavin. No epiphany moment. Nothing. There is a massive void between ANH and ESB that explains how Vader came to know this. Also, where was it stated that Anakin Skywalker's name was plastered everywhere as a Rebel Hero? I can certainly appreciate and even accept your explanation but you shouldn't have the write the story for it to make sense: it should already be written. That is a plothole.
I think I am confusing the PT stuff, too.
It does not matter what he wanted and did: he created a massive plothole by doing so. At no point is it explained why certain scenes just don't have ships flying "up" or "down". That is PIS and a vague plothole.
Like I've said prior: I find this whole massive anti-PT culture to be one massive troll-meme especially on KMC. To your credit, I do not think you're one of those people. You've done well to explain things from both the PT and OT. You have been fairly clear-headed about it. My comments were never directed at you.
I agree that the issue seems one-sided: KMC is quite anti-PT.
But I thought this thread was about Star Wars losing its relevancy because the PT was just so atrocious? Basically, I disagree with the OP's premise. I start by showing that the complaints against the PT are generally applicable to the OT. Then I can take it from there by showing that the Star Wars franchise is still going strong despite the incorrect notion that the PT ruined Star Wars.
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Last edited by dadudemon on Dec 26th, 2012 at 02:24 PM
No he didn't. That is, he went to Kamino and discovered there *was* a clone army, but we never, ever learned the circumstances of it's creation.
If Obi-wan followed up more, we did not know about it. There's no mention of any further investigation of what's going on.
Except he was just involved in the attempted assassination of Amidala (why Obi-wan was following), and was just seen as the body guard of Dooku literally days later.
Bodyguard of the leader of the CIS!
This isn't Sherlock Homes stuff, this is Hardy Boys.
Now, there are plenty of explanations. You could've had a scene where they said, "We investigated, he knew Sifo Dias and Dooku and was friends with both. Sifo asked Jango for his help on this project, and Jango agreed. Sifo did this project because he had a falling out and foresaw was was coming, and then Dooku killed him before he could tell anyone." Followed by a scene of Palpatine hinting he told Sifo that he should do so in case Dooku fell in with the separatists.
But we didn't get that. We don't know why Sifo initiative the Clone Army to begin with. We don't know what role if any anyone else had in this. We don't know how Jango got involved with the Clones, or how he managed to be linked to them and the CIS's top leadership.
We never hear the whole prophecy, though. We here the chosen one is supposed to bring balance, but that's it. Was anything else said about the chosen one in the prophecy? Where did the prophecy come from? In what way was the force unbalanced? -This last one being a big, vital, vital bit.
We lack a lot of context for some very vital info. We get a brief snippet of the prophecy, not the whole thing, with the biggest lack being, 'wait, the force is unbalanced?'.
I actually agree with that, but I'm not saying balance was in the configuration that makes a plot hole - I am saying that the lack of explaining what was meant by balance which let so many people think it was a plot hole was a story-telling flaw.
The nature of imbalance in the force, or when the force became unbalanced, or what the imbalance did, were all important bits of info that we only found out outside of the movies.
But helping people is still core to the Jedi. This isn't just for fun, she was in slavery.
And I will note it was not addressed- that is to say, they talked a lot about attachments and Padme, but attachments in regard to Shimi was not talked about in the movie itself as to why he didn't do so.
Heck, they lost a valuable opportunity there- have it brought up, have Anakin say, "I wanted to come for so long but the Masters said to not go attached and I believed them!".
This is another case where it should be like you said on the screen, but was not actually done so, it was left offscreen.
The OT didn't leave significant plot-areas unmentioned or only in interviews and such, and the PT did, is what I mean.
The Sith didn't work in pairs until it went into hiding, though.
The Sith, indeed, had been in secrecy for 1k years, and had often worked in numbers when they had been in the open.
Now, the EU tells us there was a leak 200 years before, but we the viewer never find out where the Jedi learn about the Sith.
Heck, for that matter, just some of the Sith or Jedi talking about the history of the Sith and prior conflicts with them would be good.
Unless the Superlaser had a big charge time. Which it seemed to.
Hyperdrive takes time to initiate, we've seen, and there was an ISD *right* behind them that caught them before they could.
They were in orbit. "Down = crashy."
Also, if they go down, then the pursuers can go down just as easy.
Note also how most of your OT complaints are merely technical stuff about how space works in SW which applies to both trilogies (Dooku had the Chancellor, why didn't he hyperspace away? Well, just like with Leia's ship, it was implied it's not that easy), - except for stuff like hiding someone named 'Skywalker' on Anakin's home world being a dumb idea (something that only became dumb in the PT, because Anakin wasn't from there until the PT). While most of my complaints on the PT trilogy are on how important bits of information were left out, barely mentioned, or how things that should be followed up on aren't.
No, you really ought to watch those. I'm surprised you haven't already. Those guys do a better job of explaining what's wrong with the prequels than any of us here ever could. Plus they're entertaining as hell.
Have you ever really wondered why? Or are you just convinced that nobody else "gets it" like you do?
At no point are we shown any character going to the bathroom either, but that doesn't suddenly form a plothole. How Vader came about the name of who would obviously be a very famous person is neither important to the story, nor interesting.
You only ever seem to prop up the PT by trying to pull down the OT with nitpicks and trivial minutia. Minor flaws in the story and plot take a back seat to pacing, tone, and emotion. That's where the PT really fails.
And Ush never said "Anakin Skywalker was a rebel hero."
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Last edited by Lord Lucien on Dec 26th, 2012 at 03:52 PM
In the real world, I don't ever see all this hate. Only on the internet in places like this do I see this extreme PT hate. I still love most of you, though. If it weren't the occasional poor taste in films, you'd be great internet pals.
Actually, that has nothing to do with the plot. Therefore, it cannot contribute to a plothole.
What I do is show why the PT and OT are not really that different. If I can show that you accept the OT's flaws in very similar areas that the PT has, then I have accomplished my task. Just as I told Ush, I don't expect you guys to ever admit that...just if one person, who was/is a PT hater, gets that "AHA" moment, it is worth the ridicule and hate I get from you guys. Unlike the OP, I do not think the PT ruined Star Wars: I think it rejuvenated it and made it fun for another generation.
Vader hearing a name wouldn't contribute to the plot either. It's not necessary to watch him hear a name, just as it's not necessary to watch Luke take a piss. It's trivial, and it's not the point of the story.
And anyone who says they "hate" the PT is ludicrous. To mostlyquote Kurt Vonnegut: "Any reviewer who expresses rage and loathing for a (movie) is preposterous. He or she is like a person who has put on full armor and attacked a hot fudge sundae." I don't like the PT, I think it's terrible and boring. But there are more worthy things in life to hate than a harmless film.
If you want someone to reverse their stance and have a "aha" moment, try doing the same. You want one of us to stop hating the PT and recognize them for their concomitant quality to the OT, okay. In turn, try doing the opposite. Watch the RLM reviews and see if they can't change your mind. No one here is going to convince you, that's pretty obvious. So listen to the arguments of someone who has put more effort and detail in to the subject than any of us have ever could. At most you could finally understand where we're all coming from, and at least you can watch an entertaining review series.
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Last edited by Lord Lucien on Dec 26th, 2012 at 04:41 PM
We do know: Sifo Dyas ordered them behind the backs of the Jedi Council. It was part of an elaborate plot, from Sidious, to get a war going so he could become Emperor.
Why did we need more? It was ordered 10 years ago to fight a looming threat by a Jedi Master. That Jedi Master died soon there after but the order was already placed. Obi Wan reported it, like he should have, and the council took that information to Sidious/The Senate, just as Sidious had planned. Then the Senate voted to use them against the Confederacy of Independent System.
I could be missing something: is your point going over my head? Please, don't mince words: let me have it if I am being dense.
Conjecture: they only had a dart that was manufactured by the same peeps that he was working with. Obviously, Kenobi knew and used his contact (fatass cafe owner dude with 4 arms) to track down where that dart came from. But there is a scene that shows the son covering up his father's armor when Kenobi came questioning Jango. That was a pretty funny scene: like...old school 70s British cop stuff where the criminal and the cop have a witty dialogue exchange and the viewer and the two fictional parties are aware that the bad guy is really the bad guy. It was a pretty fun scene, for me.
But, anyway, I think your point hinges on not knowing that Jango kept his assassination attempt hidden quite well until it was too late. Remember, the Jedi still had to operate under the law: they could not just take a life. That was what the whole thing was about with Windu, Anakin, and Sidious. So even though Kenobi pretty much knew Jango was guilty as hell at the assassination attempt even before the fleeing stuff happened, it was too late. Additionally, the clone army is independent of Jango's "for hire" assassination. He is a bounty hunter. Someone put a big enough bounty on Padme's head and he took up the contract..indirectly. That is hardly enough reason to discard the clone army. There is no plothole, here. It was all clearly fleshed out in the film. But, and I do admit this, I think it was a bit more complicated than what most people would have cared to watch.
Well, lastly, just because Jango was used as the template does not mean that the whole clone army was to be discarded and not used by the senate. Remember, Sidious had planned this whole thing. The Kaminoans were a respected race of scientific individuals known for "delivering" on high quality cloning products. There was no reason to suspect that they clone army was 'created' with an Order 66. That was Sidious' doing. The Kaminoans can hardly be seen as evil or bad and there is no plothole involved with the clone army, Jango being used as the template, and the Senate using the clone army to combat the CIS.
That is not a plothole, at all: that is you wanting unnecessary details. We were shown the Jango was clearly hired for the task. He even explained that he took the job because he wanted to retire and raise a boy. That is all the explanation we need. It is only when we see the army, for the first time, fully dressed, in ranks, and marching, that we realize that this is the seeds of our OT Stormtroopers. Then all the pieces fall into place and we know Sidious was behind the entire thing. No plotholes to see, here.
Also, knowing of Sifo Dyas fate is not necessary to the plot of the PT film. That is not a plothole: that is an unnecessary fact. A plothole is a hole in the plot that explains why the plot progressed the why it did. The reason for Sifo Dyas' death is unnecessary to advance the plot of the film.
I thought we did get that reason? He ordered them to combat the impending threat of the CIS. The opening text of the film mentions that threat of the CIS and the Jedi Knights not being able to contain the peace. Again, not a plothole. Also, again, we do know how he got involved with the Kaminoans: he accepted a job offer and wanted to retire. He was a renowned galactic bounty hunter...so his reputation clearly proceeded him.
Also, the Jedi are not supposed to know of the link between the CIS and the cloners. In fact, not even the CIS know of the link: Sidious and Dooku were pulling the strings from the background the whole time to get the CIS to fight the remainder of the Senate peoples.
But none of those are necessary for the plot of the film. Those are ancillary bits of information that are not necessary to progress the plot of the film. Those are not plotholes: those are facts that nerds like you and I want to know. As far as the force being unbalanced, like I said, Ushgarak has done an excellent job of explaining that, with in film references. In fact, for me, the OT became that much better knowing that Anakin was supposed to be the Chosen One. I can't wait to re-watch the OT...which should be this spring.
I see no plothole, here, though.
Oh, my bad. Well, in that case, yes, I agree with your point, as well. Many people did not get it because they are not super nerds like we are. We love this kind of stuff and eat it up. But, the answer to the question, I believe, came from the OT: the dark side was unnatural. Correct me if I am wrong, of course.
But she was also cared for by Watto. And Anakin left knowing that Watto had to answer to the Jedi if he screwed up with his mother. Additionally, the Jedi do not set the social constructs up of other cultures specifically because you think slavery is wrong. That is a gray area of morality.
I think it pretty well covered it, actually. Attachments is attachments: whether a love interest, brother, mother, sister, etc. Those are attachments. If you add in the parting lines from Schmi to Anakin, it was pretty clear that Anakin was leaving for good: they knew what was going to happen if he (Anakin) was taken to the Jedi compound to live as a Jedi. I do admit that that particular portion is possibly a plothole...only if you refuse to think a bit about the repercussions, the upset boy, the parting words of a mother, and the statement about attachments in AotC. You have to ignore all the implications of those facts to demand a very strict, straightforward, viewing of the plot in order conclude it is a plothole.
To me, that is a lot different than Darth Vader finding out about Anakin Skywalker and, magically, farseeing experts had no idea about them.
For me, that would be too much. That would be like hitting the audience over the head with a dummy stick. It is basically telling the audience, "We think you're stupid so her is a more direct approach to what it means to be a Jedi, in case you didn't understand why Anakin whined as an 8-year-old boy when he left his mother and what Anakin meant by 'attachments' earlier in this film."
That's all EU stuff and is unnecessary for the plot of the film. In fact, it may be contradicted by the films. G-level canon says always pairs.
If by a big charge time you mean a few seconds, it certainly did.
That does not address my point. Why didn't they simply plot a course that put them in plain sight of Yavin 4 rather the PIS position of right behind it? Because then the plot could not have progressed. Here is the plothole: why did they have to plot a course right behind Yavin? Where is that explanation? It is extremely important for why that fight even took place. You'd think such an explanation would have been fleshed out, on screen, since it hinges on the reason for a crucial 10 minute delay, right?
They were not in orbit. And going "down" does not mean traveling at a curve that runs parallel to the surface of that planet: it means going down. If they went down far enough, they would just have to rate and then they would have a clear shot of Yavin 4.
Again, I disagree. What I see is you forcing a white-wash of the flaws in just a single OT film and pretending there are major issues, when there are none from what you mentioned, with the PT. I don't see a fair meter stick being used for both, on your part. What you are doing is the typical thing I see being done. The complaints you have about the PT, for me, seem horribly contrived. Whereas your apologetics for the OT seem irrelevant to even plain incorrect at explaining away the plotholes.
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Ok, that's a formal warning to dadude for continuing to stoke these fires after being told to stop. You really are just trolling now, dadude, because there is no other rational explanation for you saying some of the mind-numbingly stupid things you are saying there- and this is not just about matters of opinion, it is about clearly dense reasoning that is being done deliberately to annoy others.. If you do it again I will ban you. At the point where you are seriously saying the likes of that the OT is plot-holed because of a lack of 3d space combat, you have taken this beyond the point of ridicule.
Everyone else- drop it and get back to the topic. As to the main point, the PT is a lot less well regarded than the OT but the future of Star Wars is now unknown. If you have nothing constructive on the topic to say, don't post.
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Last edited by Ushgarak on Dec 27th, 2012 at 12:17 AM
Dec 25th, 2012 07:52 PM
If it weren't the occasional poor taste in films, you'd be great internet pals. 
Unlike the OP, I do not think the PT ruined Star Wars: I think it rejuvenated it and made it fun for another generation. 
The Kaminoans can hardly be seen as evil or bad and there is no plothole involved with the clone army, Jango being used as the template, and the Senate using the clone army to combat the CIS.
