That's not making sense, since simply holding the Cosmic Cube is not a huge task. Red Skull was holding it, Dr. Doom was holding it.
Are these two characters physically stronger then Sentry? I don't think so.
It should be assumed that the eneries are escaping, since the narration tells you that he is containing the Cosmic Cube and he himself says that he can't stabilize it much longer.
That's the reason why it's often hard to debate for the Sentry, since
1. as an Earth-bound Marvel hero it's hard to him to showcase his powerlevel, since the Marvel Earth does not have as many powerhouses as DC has (and now we're not talking about the Mutants, since they are very often simply too fragile, even if they have a high powerlevel)
2. he has shown many abilities only once or twice, so you could easily say that he doesn't even have abilities like matter manipulation, teleportation, intangibility, invisibility, telepathy, healing, resurrection, force fields and what do I know what else.
The same applies for the invisibility. I'm afraid I still can't post pictures on this forum because of the protection, so I will have to explain it:
During "Civil War - The Return" he was searching for Creel. CLOC said that Creel was probably using SentrySs own ability to avoid being detected by manipulating the light and the solar radiation emission and Sentry was not able to sense him, even though he has supersenses (hi @ Butterfly's sneeze in Africa) and even can sense people by their aura.
In the same comic Creel absorbed Sentry's power and was impressed by it, stated that he never felt power like that before (and he already absorbed many things) and in the end he got matter manipulated into oblivion by the Sentry.
Well of course Superman has now the awesome telepathy resistance, and the draining resistance and the molecule manipulation resistance and every other resistance you could actually think off to stay the TOP DOG BOY in the DC Universe, yet he can still be drained by his enemies and affected on other ways and Sentry has the variety and the powerlevel to do so.
Draining his energy to weaken him and then using empathy or matter manipulation. It could pull off the trick.
Of course he did. He is Superman, he can resist everything.
And yet you will came across many "Superman VS Martian Manhunter" threads where Superman is the chanceless one, because Martian Manhunter has the advantage because of his telepathy.
And didn't Maxwell Lord control Superman?
This is basically the same thing as above.
It's hard to argue for the Sentry because of the way he was often written.
If stable he had the potential for limitless strenght speed. In his early days he was the only one who could compete with the Void who was breaking heroes like toys.
Later on he got mentally unstable and it was over with his awesome strenght and speed.
If he was stressed, then he flew from Earth to Saturn during one scream, but because that was never narrated: "AND IN A GOLDEN STREAK OUR DESTRESSED GOLDEN GUARDIAN OF GOOD FLIES FROM EARTH TO SATURN DURING JUST ONE SCREAM!", no one takes that feat seriously, yet he is faster then light, probably a lot faster then light with even the ability to take off with the speed of light like shown during the Dark Avengers fight with the Uncanny X-Men.
Messuring his strenght would be full of ABC logic, since Void >>> Thor and Hulk in terms of strenght and "stable Sentry" > Void as shown during their fights.
The problem is that Sentry was mentally unstable later on and therefore not that powerful. He gained his powerlevel back when the Void took over, but that's not how we should judge characters in cross-over fights. What's the point from taking the weakest version of a character and letting it fight against others? If, then we use the characters at their peak.
And that does not mean that we make SA Superman out of a regular Superman, but that we don't take one of Sentry's weak out-of-character versions where he got fooled by Hercules, even though Sentry would have been able to easily stomp Hercules, mainly because of the speed difference.
Oh yeah I forgot Superman/Batman is non canon from issue 49 to 66 or 67 so nano universe incident is also in-admissable. You also forgot to mention he had already experienced months because time flowed much faster in nanopolis.
He didn't directly assault Superman's mind to do that. He slowly broke down the barriers of Superman's mind over time while pretending to be a friend. According to the comics, he started in the early 90s, and didn't seize control until 2005. Do you believe they have that kind of time in this battle?
__________________
I am God's mighty fist. I am God's strength made manifest.
Sig by: Skeets, S.S, thesilverspider, Sir SKEETS Alot
Good for Superman, but I think that does not matter right now for two reasons (of course I was the one who said that Sentry could affect Superman with his telepathy):
- Sentry does not seem to be limited to telepathy. He can tap into empathy-powers and empathy works differently then telepathy, since he was able to overpower the Hulk who is immune to telepathy because of his brute nature and ... but now I'm only assuming: I say he could also affect the Flash, even though the Flash can accelerate his thoughts to avoid telepathy - empathy is still a different level and once it hits you and confronts you with miserable stuff from your life, you're affected and every comic book character has bad experiences which can be used to overpower him. The Void's empathy was even so strong that he confronted Spider-Man with bad moments from his future and that is actually huge.
- But besides that no one ever said that Marvel would mind-control the crap out of the DC team. Sentry can't mind-control. He never could and if he ever returns back, I will be glad if he stays unable to mindcontrols others, since that would speak against a very interesting theory of mine how Sentry's background could be explained well.
The main advantage the Marvel team has is indeed the energy manipulation. They have a lot of energy manipulators and they could be able to use that to gain the upper hand, if they take out few of the enemies.
That's like the only way, since the Marvel team has way too many physically weak characters who would be taken out by Superman level characters out rather easily if they go fully out and I expect someone like Mr. Majestic to go fully out and physically he should be the most powerful character in the entire battle and that could be game-breaking if he randomly attacks someone like Black Bolt, who would only have his voice to defend himself, but he would lack the speed to utilize it, if Mr. Majestic decides to speed blitz him. Black Bolt does not have the durability to last long.
The same goes for Ronan, who is basically only a 20 tonner or something without his gear and if he does not have his uber-hammer, then he is probably the weakest link in this one.
They need time indeed, but they also have force fields.
I see especially Quasar's force field coming in handy, since he already blocked attacks from Galactus if I remember correctly, so his shields should prevent them from taking all too much damage.
team DC owns, majestic and ultraman are capable of one or 2 shotting high end hearalds. MR M defeated fortress eradicator, and ultraman has demonstrated higher end physical feats that superman needed help with. To utilize energy draining or manipulating abilities the marvel team needs time and they will not have it this will be a short fight.
Team Superman. Excepting perhaps Apollo, they're extremely powerful from top to bottom. Speed blitzers at every position. Upper tier class 100 strength across the board. Three extremely competent battle savvy fighters -supes, cyborg and of course, Majestros. Anchored by arguably the highest of high heralds who also happens to be one of, if not the strongest willed characters in all of comicdom, Superman.
Downside: In a word? Too many Supermen. Not a very diverse group in terms of powerset. Also, they have several members that can either be severely hampered or rendered outright useless via weakness exploitation.
Team Marvel...
An extremely well balanced group. This team has no real weaknesses offensively or defensively. Quantum energy manipulators, Gravity manipulators, magical energies etc. Not to mention 3 members who can flatout absorb nigh limitless amounts of energy -Bill, Quasar and Nova. 5 of the them have the power to BFR entire teams solo. 3 are confirmed on panel to have the energy output to wreck entire worlds. Bill, Nova, Sentry. Maybe Quasar.
Downside: Going by feats, no one on the team is on average physically a match for the muscle of Team Supes. Team marvel has 5 class 100s -Bill, Sentry, Glads, The King (or he damn sure punches like one) and Nova. None of whom can match the Supermen imo. Speed is also a weakness. Basically in terms of reflexive speed you've got Glads, Sentry, Nova. All of the Supermen have elite reflexive speed.
Overall: Although team Marvel has high end energy manipulators, I just can't buy the typical forum theory that they'd be able to realistically pull off the coordinated weakness exploitations that would be required to take out much of team Supes. On the other hand, they do have the ability to BFR team Supes en masse. Easily. If BFR isn't an option, team Marvel is going to have to get very creative with match ups imo.
Last edited by dmills on Nov 27th, 2011 at 10:51 PM
In actual fact, it could be argued that Team Superman is more versatile. Yes, they are all flying bricks, but they also have heat vision, freeze breath, genius intellect, technopathy, energy projection (Icon), magic, plus speed attacks etc.
Making these points to the wrong person. I barely even read into this post before hitting reply to let you know. I was just correcting your misconception on Maxwell Lord.
__________________
I am God's mighty fist. I am God's strength made manifest.
Sig by: Skeets, S.S, thesilverspider, Sir SKEETS Alot
I'd consider hers an immunity, so I wouldn't really count it.
1. Maybe.
2. I don't know; he's been able to charge nigh instantly before, even after being exposed to red sun energy.
3. I was talking about having to include everything that came after the minis.
Either way, I honestly don't think Sentry without Void is going to beat Superman, tbh.
That's where you're mixing up some facts. Let me tell you something and decide for yourself if you're going to read this one or believe it, if you do so, since I'm a giant Sentry fan, you could consider me a fanboy, but I consider myself as someone who was reading about every single of Sentry's appearances and I understand the concept behind the character.
The characters weakness is his unstable mind. If he is mentally unstable, then he is weaker. If he is stable and confident, then he basically has no limits.
When he appeared in the beginning he was the only one who was able to go toe on toe with the Void, who was basically always over the top, since he didn't bother about any mental illnesses or something like that.
Later on Sentry was depowered for the plot, but they didn't decrease his powerlevel, they only gave him more intense mental problems.
Remember his first mini, and also his second mini. He was powerful there, he was fairly stable, doing awesome stuff and fighting against the Void, who was a separate entity.
But why was the Void a separate entity? Sentry was simply too mind-strong, will-strong, too stable and Void didn't have a chance to take over Sentry's body, so he had to recreate himself as a separate being.
Later on when Sentry joined the Avengers / Bendis took over the writing, he made Sentry unstable. The Void had an easy game with the Sentry and started taking over. You could see it when Sentry got black eyes and acted like a maniac. That was the Void.
Now, this is how the fight against Superman would be ...
If you let him fight aganist an unstable Sentry, then yeah - He would have an easy game, since an unstable Sentry's powerlevel is not that high, yet high enough to stop WW Hulk and the Collective.
But if Superman gains the upper hand and Sentry starts doubting everything, the Void appears and let's be honest ... Void >>> Superman.
If you let Superman fight against a stable Sentry, who is so powerful that the Void can't take over and probably even more powerful since he defeated the Void in his second mini in a bloody fight and tossed him into the sun.
Then the fight would be very interesting and I would actually give it to the Sentry in the long run, because he has the superior powerset and maybe even powerlevel, since shredding worlds while holding back sounds awesome.
Many people also believe that Sentry does not have matter manipulation, but the people who say so were never interested in the character in the first place so they don't know as much as someone who is basically obsessed with the Sentry.
I also say that this is not some kind of fan-wanking to the Sentry. I don't disagree with you. The regular Superman would stomp an unstable Sentry who is not allowed to use the Void, but such a fight is basically the ultimate proof that the OP knows that Superman wouldn't stand a chance otherwise, since Sentry's unstable mind is his only weakness.
There were times where he was stable and therefore a lot more powerful.
Making him unstable for the battle, simply because he was turned into a mental nutcase for the plot is not fair, because it's basically the exact same thing as we would see Superman having adventures for years with a piece of Kryptonite in his body which would weaken him, so that even Solomon Grundy could punch him into the ground.
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Nov 27th, 2011 04:07 PM
