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Team Superman Vs Team Marvel
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Enzeru
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by abhilegend
He was not absorbing any power from it, that's for sure however he was holding it. There was no indication of it in the narration and it's purely speculation that he was drawing power from it.


That's not making sense, since simply holding the Cosmic Cube is not a huge task. Red Skull was holding it, Dr. Doom was holding it.
Are these two characters physically stronger then Sentry? I don't think so.

It should be assumed that the eneries are escaping, since the narration tells you that he is containing the Cosmic Cube and he himself says that he can't stabilize it much longer.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by abhilegend
Who were these metas sentry used his invisibility?


That's the reason why it's often hard to debate for the Sentry, since

1. as an Earth-bound Marvel hero it's hard to him to showcase his powerlevel, since the Marvel Earth does not have as many powerhouses as DC has (and now we're not talking about the Mutants, since they are very often simply too fragile, even if they have a high powerlevel)
2. he has shown many abilities only once or twice, so you could easily say that he doesn't even have abilities like matter manipulation, teleportation, intangibility, invisibility, telepathy, healing, resurrection, force fields and what do I know what else.

The same applies for the invisibility. I'm afraid I still can't post pictures on this forum because of the protection, so I will have to explain it:
During "Civil War - The Return" he was searching for Creel. CLOC said that Creel was probably using SentrySs own ability to avoid being detected by manipulating the light and the solar radiation emission and Sentry was not able to sense him, even though he has supersenses (hi @ Butterfly's sneeze in Africa) and even can sense people by their aura.

In the same comic Creel absorbed Sentry's power and was impressed by it, stated that he never felt power like that before (and he already absorbed many things) and in the end he got matter manipulated into oblivion by the Sentry.

Well of course Superman has now the awesome telepathy resistance, and the draining resistance and the molecule manipulation resistance and every other resistance you could actually think off to stay the TOP DOG BOY in the DC Universe, yet he can still be drained by his enemies and affected on other ways and Sentry has the variety and the powerlevel to do so.
Draining his energy to weaken him and then using empathy or matter manipulation. It could pull off the trick.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman has resisted Hector hammond who was controlling every superhero on earth and Despero who made martian manhunter and Aquaman his bitches simultaneously.


Of course he did. He is Superman, he can resist everything.
And yet you will came across many "Superman VS Martian Manhunter" threads where Superman is the chanceless one, because Martian Manhunter has the advantage because of his telepathy.

And didn't Maxwell Lord control Superman?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by abhilegend
Sentry neither has strength feats nor speed feats to compete against superman. I would give Kal 7/10 against him.


This is basically the same thing as above.
It's hard to argue for the Sentry because of the way he was often written.

If stable he had the potential for limitless strenght speed. In his early days he was the only one who could compete with the Void who was breaking heroes like toys.

Later on he got mentally unstable and it was over with his awesome strenght and speed.
If he was stressed, then he flew from Earth to Saturn during one scream, but because that was never narrated: "AND IN A GOLDEN STREAK OUR DESTRESSED GOLDEN GUARDIAN OF GOOD FLIES FROM EARTH TO SATURN DURING JUST ONE SCREAM!", no one takes that feat seriously, yet he is faster then light, probably a lot faster then light with even the ability to take off with the speed of light like shown during the Dark Avengers fight with the Uncanny X-Men.

Messuring his strenght would be full of ABC logic, since Void >>> Thor and Hulk in terms of strenght and "stable Sentry" > Void as shown during their fights.

The problem is that Sentry was mentally unstable later on and therefore not that powerful. He gained his powerlevel back when the Void took over, but that's not how we should judge characters in cross-over fights. What's the point from taking the weakest version of a character and letting it fight against others? If, then we use the characters at their peak.

And that does not mean that we make SA Superman out of a regular Superman, but that we don't take one of Sentry's weak out-of-character versions where he got fooled by Hercules, even though Sentry would have been able to easily stomp Hercules, mainly because of the speed difference.

Old Post Nov 27th, 2011 04:07 PM
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abhilegend
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Oh yeah I forgot Superman/Batman is non canon from issue 49 to 66 or 67 so nano universe incident is also in-admissable. You also forgot to mention he had already experienced months because time flowed much faster in nanopolis.


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Old Post Nov 27th, 2011 04:12 PM
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Cogito
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Hank hacks the shit out of team Marvel.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
DC is stacked.


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Old Post Nov 27th, 2011 04:38 PM
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Juntai
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Enzeru

And didn't Maxwell Lord control Superman?
He didn't directly assault Superman's mind to do that. He slowly broke down the barriers of Superman's mind over time while pretending to be a friend. According to the comics, he started in the early 90s, and didn't seize control until 2005. Do you believe they have that kind of time in this battle?


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Old Post Nov 27th, 2011 06:38 PM
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Enzeru
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Juntai
He didn't directly assault Superman's mind to do that. He slowly broke down the barriers of Superman's mind over time while pretending to be a friend. According to the comics, he started in the early 90s, and didn't seize control until 2005. Do you believe they have that kind of time in this battle?


Good for Superman, but I think that does not matter right now for two reasons (of course I was the one who said that Sentry could affect Superman with his telepathy):

- Sentry does not seem to be limited to telepathy. He can tap into empathy-powers and empathy works differently then telepathy, since he was able to overpower the Hulk who is immune to telepathy because of his brute nature and ... but now I'm only assuming: I say he could also affect the Flash, even though the Flash can accelerate his thoughts to avoid telepathy - empathy is still a different level and once it hits you and confronts you with miserable stuff from your life, you're affected and every comic book character has bad experiences which can be used to overpower him. The Void's empathy was even so strong that he confronted Spider-Man with bad moments from his future and that is actually huge.

- But besides that no one ever said that Marvel would mind-control the crap out of the DC team. Sentry can't mind-control. He never could and if he ever returns back, I will be glad if he stays unable to mindcontrols others, since that would speak against a very interesting theory of mine how Sentry's background could be explained well.

The main advantage the Marvel team has is indeed the energy manipulation. They have a lot of energy manipulators and they could be able to use that to gain the upper hand, if they take out few of the enemies.
That's like the only way, since the Marvel team has way too many physically weak characters who would be taken out by Superman level characters out rather easily if they go fully out and I expect someone like Mr. Majestic to go fully out and physically he should be the most powerful character in the entire battle and that could be game-breaking if he randomly attacks someone like Black Bolt, who would only have his voice to defend himself, but he would lack the speed to utilize it, if Mr. Majestic decides to speed blitz him. Black Bolt does not have the durability to last long.
The same goes for Ronan, who is basically only a 20 tonner or something without his gear and if he does not have his uber-hammer, then he is probably the weakest link in this one.

Old Post Nov 27th, 2011 07:00 PM
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DarkSaint85
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The main advantage the Marvel team has is indeed the energy manipulation. They have a lot of energy manipulators and they could be able to use that to gain the upper hand, if they take out few of the enemies.
That's like the only way, since the Marvel team has way too many physically weak characters who would be taken out by Superman level characters out rather easily if they go fully out and I expect someone like Mr. Majestic to go fully out and physically he should be the most powerful character in the entire battle and that could be game-breaking if he randomly attacks someone like Black Bolt, who would only have his voice to defend himself, but he would lack the speed to utilize it, if Mr. Majestic decides to speed blitz him. Black Bolt does not have the durability to last long.
The same goes for Ronan, who is basically only a 20 tonner or something without his gear and if he does not have his uber-hammer, then he is probably the weakest link in this one.


Problem is, the energy manipulators need time. The only manipulators with enhanced reactions are Bill and Sentry, Quasar would be speedblitzed.

Team Superman win, rather easily.

Old Post Nov 27th, 2011 08:06 PM
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Enzeru
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Problem is, the energy manipulators need time. The only manipulators with enhanced reactions are Bill and Sentry, Quasar would be speedblitzed.

Team Superman win, rather easily.


They need time indeed, but they also have force fields.
I see especially Quasar's force field coming in handy, since he already blocked attacks from Galactus if I remember correctly, so his shields should prevent them from taking all too much damage.

Old Post Nov 27th, 2011 08:41 PM
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Senor Cage
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Who would be the one to take on Quasar? Majestic and Icon can manipulate energy. Quasar doesn't want any of that.

Old Post Nov 27th, 2011 10:14 PM
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zeel
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team DC owns, majestic and ultraman are capable of one or 2 shotting high end hearalds. MR M defeated fortress eradicator, and ultraman has demonstrated higher end physical feats that superman needed help with. To utilize energy draining or manipulating abilities the marvel team needs time and they will not have it this will be a short fight.

Last edited by zeel on Nov 27th, 2011 at 10:21 PM

Old Post Nov 27th, 2011 10:18 PM
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JakeTheBank
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Replace Ronan with Thor.
Replace Black Bolt with Silver Surfer.

It's not so lopsided in favor for DC then, imo.


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Old Post Nov 27th, 2011 10:21 PM
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dmills
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Hmmm... Let's break this down

Team Superman. Excepting perhaps Apollo, they're extremely powerful from top to bottom. Speed blitzers at every position. Upper tier class 100 strength across the board. Three extremely competent battle savvy fighters -supes, cyborg and of course, Majestros. Anchored by arguably the highest of high heralds who also happens to be one of, if not the strongest willed characters in all of comicdom, Superman.

Downside: In a word? Too many Supermen. Not a very diverse group in terms of powerset. Also, they have several members that can either be severely hampered or rendered outright useless via weakness exploitation.


Team Marvel...

An extremely well balanced group. This team has no real weaknesses offensively or defensively. Quantum energy manipulators, Gravity manipulators, magical energies etc. Not to mention 3 members who can flatout absorb nigh limitless amounts of energy -Bill, Quasar and Nova. 5 of the them have the power to BFR entire teams solo. 3 are confirmed on panel to have the energy output to wreck entire worlds. Bill, Nova, Sentry. Maybe Quasar.

Downside: Going by feats, no one on the team is on average physically a match for the muscle of Team Supes. Team marvel has 5 class 100s -Bill, Sentry, Glads, The King (or he damn sure punches like one) and Nova. None of whom can match the Supermen imo. Speed is also a weakness. Basically in terms of reflexive speed you've got Glads, Sentry, Nova. All of the Supermen have elite reflexive speed.


Overall: Although team Marvel has high end energy manipulators, I just can't buy the typical forum theory that they'd be able to realistically pull off the coordinated weakness exploitations that would be required to take out much of team Supes. On the other hand, they do have the ability to BFR team Supes en masse. Easily. If BFR isn't an option, team Marvel is going to have to get very creative with match ups imo.

Last edited by dmills on Nov 27th, 2011 at 10:51 PM

Old Post Nov 27th, 2011 10:38 PM
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Prep,

Which Ultraman btw?

Old Post Nov 27th, 2011 11:11 PM
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Senor Cage
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The one from Superman Beyond. Is all I know.

Supermen seem like not much versatility, but Cap has magical attacks, Icon has energy attacks, and so does Majestic.

Apollo might be the weakest on either team. We need to see more of him, but so far he might be Superman level. Or a notch below.

Old Post Nov 27th, 2011 11:14 PM
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ODG
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
And Superman has arguably the most impressive TP resistance of any herald in DC.
I have the impression that Wonder Woman's more resistant.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by dmills
Hmmm... Let's break this down

Team Superman. Excepting perhaps Apollo, they're extremely powerful from top to bottom.
Apollo is criminally underrated.


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Old Post Nov 27th, 2011 11:17 PM
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JakeTheBank
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I have the impression that Wonder Woman's more resistant.


thumb up


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Old Post Nov 27th, 2011 11:18 PM
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DarkSaint85
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Prep-Man
The one from Superman Beyond. Is all I know.

Supermen seem like not much versatility, but Cap has magical attacks, Icon has energy attacks, and so does Majestic.

Apollo might be the weakest on either team. We need to see more of him, but so far he might be Superman level. Or a notch below.


Plus, Cyborg Superman...

In actual fact, it could be argued that Team Superman is more versatile. Yes, they are all flying bricks, but they also have heat vision, freeze breath, genius intellect, technopathy, energy projection (Icon), magic, plus speed attacks etc.

Old Post Nov 27th, 2011 11:19 PM
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Juntai
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Enzeru
Good for Superman, but I think that does not matter right now for two reasons (of course I was the one who said that Sentry could affect Superman with his telepathy):

- Sentry does not seem to be limited to telepathy. He can tap into empathy-powers and empathy works differently then telepathy, since he was able to overpower the Hulk who is immune to telepathy because of his brute nature and ... but now I'm only assuming: I say he could also affect the Flash, even though the Flash can accelerate his thoughts to avoid telepathy - empathy is still a different level and once it hits you and confronts you with miserable stuff from your life, you're affected and every comic book character has bad experiences which can be used to overpower him. The Void's empathy was even so strong that he confronted Spider-Man with bad moments from his future and that is actually huge.

- But besides that no one ever said that Marvel would mind-control the crap out of the DC team. Sentry can't mind-control. He never could and if he ever returns back, I will be glad if he stays unable to mindcontrols others, since that would speak against a very interesting theory of mine how Sentry's background could be explained well.

The main advantage the Marvel team has is indeed the energy manipulation. They have a lot of energy manipulators and they could be able to use that to gain the upper hand, if they take out few of the enemies.
That's like the only way, since the Marvel team has way too many physically weak characters who would be taken out by Superman level characters out rather easily if they go fully out and I expect someone like Mr. Majestic to go fully out and physically he should be the most powerful character in the entire battle and that could be game-breaking if he randomly attacks someone like Black Bolt, who would only have his voice to defend himself, but he would lack the speed to utilize it, if Mr. Majestic decides to speed blitz him. Black Bolt does not have the durability to last long.
The same goes for Ronan, who is basically only a 20 tonner or something without his gear and if he does not have his uber-hammer, then he is probably the weakest link in this one.
Making these points to the wrong person. I barely even read into this post before hitting reply to let you know. I was just correcting your misconception on Maxwell Lord.


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Old Post Nov 27th, 2011 11:30 PM
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-Pr-
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I have the impression that Wonder Woman's more resistant. Apollo is criminally underrated.


I'd consider hers an immunity, so I wouldn't really count it.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Enzeru
1. I think it depends. It would be the writers decision. Both scenarios would make sense. Either Sentry passivly amping Superman with the solar energy output, or Sentry realizing it in the beginning and using energy-drain to depower him.

I also don't think it's actually something the Sentry has to do specificly, but more something like that he can do while doing other things. For example he did not have to stand next to the person he healed and point with his finger in the right direction. He went away and the person healed, so I assume that he could maybe heal his teammates in the process.

2. Yeah, you're right about that, but I think that he can be drained quicker, then he can absorb solar radiation to gain his strenght back and that's the way for Team Marvel to depower him without hurting him, since it would not be in their character to basically kill off an opponent.

3. I think even the showings besides his first mini portray him as a very powerful being.
Of course he was over the top in his first mini and still very powerful in his second one, but his powerlevel varies with his mental stability.
If he is unstable, then he is also a lot weaker, but he is still damn powerful.

For example:

- When he fought WW Hulk he was very unstable and therefore very weak, but he still had the upper hand in the fight and stopped Hulk in the end and that's actually pretty neat, if you think about some of WW Hulks feats. Of course there was a lot of PIS during the entire arc, but it's still hard to deny that it was a very powerful version of the Hulk.

- He also fought the Collective who killed Alpha Flight and easily overpowered Binary, who is a planet buster, yet an unstable Sentry came along and stalemated the Collective long enough until they found a way to defeat him.

From there it can only get better.
Moments where the Sentry got outplayed like for example where he got overloaded by Hammond (Human Torch) ... That was just weird - a plot device just to remove him as fast as possible from the battlefield, since there is no point in him soloing simply everyone on the field. His powerlevel would allow him to do so.


1. Maybe.
2. I don't know; he's been able to charge nigh instantly before, even after being exposed to red sun energy.
3. I was talking about having to include everything that came after the minis.

Either way, I honestly don't think Sentry without Void is going to beat Superman, tbh.


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Old Post Nov 28th, 2011 10:43 AM
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DarkSaint85
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
I'd consider hers an immunity, so I wouldn't really count it.



1. Maybe.
2. I don't know; he's been able to charge nigh instantly before, even after being exposed to red sun energy.
3. I was talking about having to include everything that came after the minis.

Either way, I honestly don't think Sentry without Void is going to beat Superman, tbh.


Agreed, and this is ignoring Majestic's ability to build a giant solar recharger to get all the solar-powered people back in the game...

Old Post Nov 28th, 2011 10:47 AM
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Enzeru
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
Either way, I honestly don't think Sentry without Void is going to beat Superman, tbh.


That's where you're mixing up some facts. Let me tell you something and decide for yourself if you're going to read this one or believe it, if you do so, since I'm a giant Sentry fan, you could consider me a fanboy, but I consider myself as someone who was reading about every single of Sentry's appearances and I understand the concept behind the character.

The characters weakness is his unstable mind. If he is mentally unstable, then he is weaker. If he is stable and confident, then he basically has no limits.
When he appeared in the beginning he was the only one who was able to go toe on toe with the Void, who was basically always over the top, since he didn't bother about any mental illnesses or something like that.
Later on Sentry was depowered for the plot, but they didn't decrease his powerlevel, they only gave him more intense mental problems.

Remember his first mini, and also his second mini. He was powerful there, he was fairly stable, doing awesome stuff and fighting against the Void, who was a separate entity.
But why was the Void a separate entity? Sentry was simply too mind-strong, will-strong, too stable and Void didn't have a chance to take over Sentry's body, so he had to recreate himself as a separate being.

Later on when Sentry joined the Avengers / Bendis took over the writing, he made Sentry unstable. The Void had an easy game with the Sentry and started taking over. You could see it when Sentry got black eyes and acted like a maniac. That was the Void.

Now, this is how the fight against Superman would be ...
If you let him fight aganist an unstable Sentry, then yeah - He would have an easy game, since an unstable Sentry's powerlevel is not that high, yet high enough to stop WW Hulk and the Collective.
But if Superman gains the upper hand and Sentry starts doubting everything, the Void appears and let's be honest ... Void >>> Superman.

If you let Superman fight against a stable Sentry, who is so powerful that the Void can't take over and probably even more powerful since he defeated the Void in his second mini in a bloody fight and tossed him into the sun.
Then the fight would be very interesting and I would actually give it to the Sentry in the long run, because he has the superior powerset and maybe even powerlevel, since shredding worlds while holding back sounds awesome.

Many people also believe that Sentry does not have matter manipulation, but the people who say so were never interested in the character in the first place so they don't know as much as someone who is basically obsessed with the Sentry.

I also say that this is not some kind of fan-wanking to the Sentry. I don't disagree with you. The regular Superman would stomp an unstable Sentry who is not allowed to use the Void, but such a fight is basically the ultimate proof that the OP knows that Superman wouldn't stand a chance otherwise, since Sentry's unstable mind is his only weakness.
There were times where he was stable and therefore a lot more powerful.
Making him unstable for the battle, simply because he was turned into a mental nutcase for the plot is not fair, because it's basically the exact same thing as we would see Superman having adventures for years with a piece of Kryptonite in his body which would weaken him, so that even Solomon Grundy could punch him into the ground.

Old Post Nov 28th, 2011 11:03 AM
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