__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
Basically, the only time we can evaluate "Zonakin" is him grabbing Dooku's arms and pulling them in so he could hack the guy's arms off. We'll ignore the fact that Dooku provided what appeared to be no resistance nor any Force moves to counter this.
So here's what we can establish about Zonakin.
1. He's really powerful. I mean, really. How much? I dunno, but if it supports my bias, he's more powerful than anyone ever, because slippery slope arguments rule!.
2. His demonstrated skills include... wait, I'm sorry, all he did was get a few seconds' jump on Dooku in close-quarters. There's nothing to suggest he could do the same to other components in entirely different scenarios. Furthermore, there's absolutely nothing to suggest Anakin could use "Zonakin" in other scenarios, period. He certainly didn't use it when his life depended on it against Obi-Wan.
3. Since even Escape has admitted that Force mastery > Innate Force powers, it stands to reason that Zonakin could conceivably fail or be warded off by a superior Force user. At this time I submit that Malgus as of TOR is 28 years past his victory at Korriban, and one of the foremost practitioners of the Force in his era, including the Emperor, Satele, and the Dark Council which itself borders on ridiculous.
Malgus has never shown mastery of the force on the level of Darth Tyranus. Nor has his swordsmanship been shown to be superior.
People have made arguments like
'Malgus is a physical monster'
So was Tyranus who in his old age blocked Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan's double handed strikes simultaneously with ONE HAND. And yet Anakin had no trouble overpowering his defenses.
If Skywalker keeps up the pressure on Malgus he won't give him the chance to use his Force arsenal. Anakin even not In Teh Zone is still a formidable combatant.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
This is an amusing, considering Malgus and Dooku have never been directly compared in any canon material whatsoever and unlike the movie characters who have a rather defined hierarchy of who's top tier, who's not, etc., EU characters do not simply fall into nice neat lines of "better than X, not better than X". You have to do some elaborating on your own assertions here.
Malgus is a Sith Warrior. He's been pretty much indomitable and able to handle whatever or whoever's challenged him over the years. In comparison, Anakin Skywalker has been repeatedly tooled by Dooku almost right up to the point where he "snapped to" and overcame the Count, and he lost a protracted battle with Obi-Wan, who is if you believe some sources, not even on the same tier as Anakin and certainly nowhere near Dooku.
So the point remains - Malgus is an incredible duelist with some good visible battles under his belt and the fact that he's been practising the Dark Side and being a Sith Warrior longer than Anakin's been alive (much less been swinging a lightsaber), I'm entirely inclined to believe he has the upper hand.
If you intend to dismiss that because it doesn't fit your world-view of who is or isn't BA in Star Wars, whatever.
Correction: Dooku in almost every other circumstance utterly dominated Anakin, yet Anakin is considered superior to Malgus because somehow Dooku < Malgus. We'll ignore that A < B < C logic is invalid and cut straight to the point ... on a consistent basis, Anakin has not shown himself to be superior to the Count. When using his Full potential and banking on a situation where the Count was clearly toying with him and attempting to spark his rage (something that Malgus simply would not do) he managed to do a quick in-close move that caught Dooku off guard and won the battle.
Anakin should not be considered well above Dooku's level when he's consistently shown poorer skills and powers prior to their RotS batte. if Anakin was indeed Dooku's true superior, spanking Obi-Wan should have taken all of 2-3 seconds.
Only it didn't.
This is like arguing TPM Obi-Wan > Darth Maul, only at least Dooku has the excuse that Anakin "tapped his potential", you know? That entirely circumstantial plot device move?
This is laughable. Anakin "not in the zone" (which is Anakin fighting 99.999% of the time in the mythos) is a combatant barely on par with Obi-wan Kenobi, who himself is routinely defeated outright or narrowly avoids defeat against Assajj Ventress, Dooku, Maul, etc. Even Jango Fett almost beat Obi-Wan's ass. The point being, Anakin could flail like his life depends on it (because it does) and Malgus, the elder, likely stronger, craftier, more proficient in both Force usage and the Dark Side, entirely capable of letting the strongheaded and typically stupid Anakin work himself into a bad situation (which he's done many many times) and then brutally murder him because quite frankly Malgus gets bored fighting little mewling Jedi.
Right, but more often than not, a masterful Force user will overcome a raw grunt who has not mastered the same move. Case in point, Dooku's mastery of the Force far exceeds anyone in the Jedi Order saving Mace and Yoda. Anakin is entirely overcome whenever he employs it, as is Obi-Wan. Anakin has never demonstrated the capability to overcome Dooku strictly in the Force. Therefore, it seems entirely illogical to conclude that Malgus, who is a bonafide Force expert and uses a lot of strong abilities, would be overcome by Anakin.
That was a good episode. Seriously though, the fact that this fight is still even a discussion speaks volumes for the lack of mental stability of some of you.
Suppressing Son and Daughter with TK is incredibly impressive when they are hailed as the most powerful beings in known space.
Of course they don't. Different combatants are better against others. However there is an obvious difference in levels between people like Dooku and people like Kenobi.
There are Thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Sith Warriors at the time of the Great War. Are you implying that all of them are superior to Anakin because they are Sith Warriors? Malgus being indomitable and being able to handle anyone who challenged him isn't really that impressive. He did not participate in the powershifts that most of the other Sith of the era participated in.
I could see if he served on the Dark Council for decades. But it's pretty stated that Malgus' rank did not reflect his power. Why? Because he was a crappy politician and didn't aspire to be on the Dark Council.
If by "repeatedly tooled" you mean put on his ass once and having to use Magna Guards to subdue him the next. Then you would be correct. Anakin has held his own in duels with the good Count on many occasions.
Well that would very well depend. If Malgus baits out Anakin and he goes in the zone Malgus will end up dead.
You must be joking. I think Malgus is the most incredible badass in the Old Republic. If this was going on popularity I'd give it to him hands down over the posterboy whiner of the PT era.
In half the fights Anakin's had with Dooku (4 times) Dooku has tried to use Dun Moch and been put on his ass for it. The first time on Tatooine the second time on the Invisible Hand. Why would Malgus not try to bait Skywalker? A Sith using Dun Moch is really not that far-fetched.
That's A>B>C logic. Anakin defeated Tyranus because yes he is just a bad opponent. A Master of Form V will always triumph over an equal Master of Form II.
Yes except Maul outright defeated Kenobi. So your example sucks. What it would be like is arguing that Obi-Wan was on Maul's level, which is true. An enraged Kenobi is on Maul's level.
Really? Because on Tatooine I recall him putting Dooku right on his ass the moment he mentioned Asoka. Your argument Malgus is older and more experienced so he's going to pwn him is really crappy. Also Anakin has never proven to be stupid, especially considering that he has outsmarted tactical geniuses like Grievous and Trench on the field of battle.
My point is that I doubt Malgus will immediately go for the kill. He'll likely draw it out. And if he pokes and prods Anakin in his arrogance like Dooku, he will be put down just like Tyranus was.
I don't see anakin being weak in the force at all. Didn't he shake down a 20 story building in LOE by unleashing his rage and wasn't he able to lift a 100 foot statue with TK and smash open the temple doors with ease?
Actually, a lot of that was simply highlighting the error in his reasoning. IF it's logical to assume that Malgus can't beat Anakin because he is somehow inferior to Dooku (this assertion is simply put forth by M.Yoda, not really substantiated), THEN it seems reasonable to believe that Obi-Wan must be the most powerful Jedi in the Order since he beat someone who beat someone who stalemated Mace Windu, etc. I realize SW debating isn't a den of objective logic, but at least movie to movie debates have the advantage of more direct comparisons and established hierarchies according to commentary, GL, etc. Simply dismissing Malgus out of hand and then using the Dooku < Anakin < Malgus argument is ignoring context brutally.
After all, padawan Obi-Wan overcame Darth Maul in a surprising twist of fate. Earlier in their battle, he also channeled his anger and disarmed Maul (who himself is a superior combatant any other day of the week) and if we argued padawan Obi-Wan only in the context of that one amazing scene, we'd lose grasp of how large the gap really is between those two fighters.
I will attempt to review this episode myself then. If it changes my opinion on Anakin's proficiency in the Force, I'll come back to the table with a new opinion. If it's chock full of major PIS or something else, then I'll trust you'll be reminded of it.
Simply being a Sith Warrior isn't the point here; it's that Malgus is the most distinguished Sith Warrior in combat, saving those who may sit on the Council. He's personally developed and lead attacks in war, actively maintains battle in the interest of the Empire, and goes out of his way to fight opponents to test his own mettle (Adraas, Aryn, etc.). This guy's philosophy is the only way to master the Force is to continually immerse yourself in its power, challenge yourself at every opportunity, and completely eschew politicking because it's beneath you. He's a consummate warrior in the very sense of the word, and he's got at the very least 28+ years of fighting a war, battling Jedi and other Sith, immersing himself in the Force, and building his own power.
His duels with Zen Vallow and Dao Cen Darach pretty well illustrate that he's a force to be reckoned with. His handling of Adraas was even more one-sided.
The gap between the Count and Anakin has always been well distinguished. Dooku has been known to literally dance around Anakin's blows, with Anakin only rarely faring well and usually through a liberal application of brute strength, not finesse. The point remains that Dooku's strength and mastery in the Force was on another level, and only by tapping his potential in one moment of surprising power and clarity was Anakin able to "win'. This is a far cry from a closer battle, such as Yoda versus Sidious, or Obi-Wan versus Anakin out of the zone.
Anakin going in the zone doesn't just involve "making him angry". if that were the case, Anakin would have never been defeated, because every time he's held back or miffed he gets mad. Hell, Anakin was "mad" when he charged Dooku in AotC in the hangar. How well did that work? Anakin was "mad" at Obi-Wan on Mustafar. How well did that work? It's true that Anakin can increase his strength and endurance, but his mental fortitude is weak; he's susceptible to being tricked or lead around the ring.
Point being, "Zone" mode is not a feasible argument here. If you argue certain characters as "at their very best ever ever ever as they were in that one moment due to whatever plot convenience demanded it", then fine. Hestizo Trace has a zombie flashback, moves forward faster than even Jedi can see and breaks Anakin's neck three times over. Really, let's be ridiculous with it. Nihilus' eats planets. Therefore, Nihilus eats all opponents because quite frankly how could he not? Oh, and his TK worked against a gravity well from the Mass Shadow Generator while not ripping apart the ship as well. This is well beyond most showings of TK. Therefore, Nihilus wins all fights by either TK or Force Drain, no exceptions.
Then your stance of "he's not as impressive as Dooku/anakin" isn't very sensible. It could be because you haven't really demonstrated any logic here, just "this is my opinion, I disagree with everything you said, also here's some haphazard reasoning". That episode you have listed may be your only saving grace, and if it is I'll be sure to come back here and talk about it.
So because Sith in general use Dun Moch, Malgus will? How's that sensible? Have you read anything with Malgus in it?
LOL.
No, that's just stupid logic right there. If all Form V practitioners beat all Form II practitioners all the time, then no one would practice Form II, "THE form of master duelists" as per the original Fightsaber article which created it. If you want to take RotS novelization's "kinectic blah blah" as ABSOLUTE, again, prepare to look silly.
Dooku -defeated- Anakin outright before the "ZONE" mode. He ragdolled Obi-Wan while at the same time backkicking Anakin like a rampant shopping cart come to clip his heel. If you want to take best showings as absolutes, Dooku was trouncing all over Anakin and simply chose to bait him on for more entertainment, which was in retrospect a bad move because suddenly Anakin got stronger for one split second which ended the fight. But prior to that, Dooku was holding off both combatants with relative ease.
Right, and Dooku, the elder more experienced Force user and duelist, has put Anakin on his ass many many more times. Generally, when arguing superiority over two separate forces, it helps to realize who is superior more often than not, not simply who was better for one second and forget all other evidence to the contrary.
Anakin showed a proficiency for battlefield tactics in Jedi Trial, yes. He's also shown that he allows his pride and emotion to rule his swordhand in many battles; against Dooku, against Obi-Wan, against Ventress. Anakin is not known for coldly evaluating his opponents in a duel and working to undo them by higher reasoning; he simply rages against them and hopes they cave.
Malgus, on the opposite end, is known to use both Rage and tactical thinking simultaneously. (Zallow, Aryn, Adraas for examples).
My point is that you apparently have no idea how Malgus operates. Go read Deceived for me and reconsider while I watch that episode for you.
You're talking about the Episode III video game? Oh yeah, that was truly canon.
According to Leland chee, it is, only certain parts of the game get retconned by the movie. For example in the game Dooku gets stabbed but in the movie he gets his head cut off.
Here is my argument.
Anakin will lose to Malgus in a duel.
However if Anakin goes in the zone, it is over. Do you think that Malgus can defeat in the zone Skywalker? If not we have nothing to debate.
When did Leland Chee say this about the Episode III game specifically? Otherwise, we have no reason to believe that a video game cutscene which depicts G-canon material is somehow equally or more valid, especially when said cutscene enjoys no mention elsewhere.
First, I've looked up the Mortis trilogy. Son manhandles Anakin and co. until Father kills himself and directly weakens and distracts Son, who Anakin then kills with his lightsaber. I'm not seeing any "proof" for your argument in that scenario.
Second, you've very deliberately ignored some important questions I had for you.
1. Have you read Deceived? This is the premier work involving Malgus and it has him fighting exactly three opponents. It also describes him at his peak (which none of the TOR videos do).
If you have not done so, you're arguing well out of your ass. I can admit to being unfamiliar with brand new Anakin content (mainly because I don't care enough to watch the cartoon just to find out more about a character I thought was stale in the first three movies) but for you to argue against Malgus and somehow remain deliberately ignorant of his primary battles is grounds for you having no argument.
2. If 1 is a 'yes', when did Malgus use Don Moch to the extent which say, Dooku did?
3. If 1 is a 'yes', what aspects of Malgus' fighting and his command of the Force simply cries out 'weaker than Anakin Skywalker'?
4. Can you answer any of the above without using some random absolute stance?
5. I've already addressed "Zone" Anakin. And I'll do it again in bold, for the terminally ignorant.
Anakin Skywalker's ability to go into the "Zone" and "Tap his uttermost potential" is PIS and cannot be assumed to be easily replicated in any or all versus matches, especially because in an overwhelming majority of his fights, even when mad, Anakin does not go "in the Zone". Therefore, because the exact conditions for this to occur are not predictable, provable, or sensible to apply to totally unrelated fighters (some of which have absolutely no history with Anakin), it is entirely ridiculous to assume that Anakin will ever go "in the Zone" for the fight.
And again, that's not even touching on HOW long he can sustain it should it occur, or whether or not his top potential would be enough.
So yeah, when you can answer those above and prove your argument, let me know.
SW data banks. He was asked if the game was canon and his response that it is C-canon material, only certain parts like the G-canon novel, that it gets retconned by the movie.
I agree. Anakin will probably not enter "teh z0ne" in this fight. However, him entering the zone has nothing to do with PIS. In fact, it is CIS that prevents him from fighting like that consistently.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
Last edited by Lord Lucien on Jan 24th, 2012 at 08:37 AM
Jan 16th, 2012 12:13 AM
