How maturity can be negative thing? A mature individual would make smart decisions and not experiment much.
They did not had any control over him.
Revan reached a compromise with the Jedi Council;
In the end a compromise was reached. The Jedi would not speak out against his marriage to Bastila. Officially, both would still be recognized as Jedi in good standing, with all corresponding rights and privileges. In exchange, Revan promised not to spread his heresy to other members of the Order. (Source: SWTOR - Revan)
Your understanding is flawed. Revan' memories were slowly recovering in the form of visions. He started an investigation to uncover the facts. He also wanted to find Meetra Surik. Unfortunately, he got captured during the process. He did not get time to plan something big.
It WAS a bad decision. Better option was to leave the Order to register his protest in front of the Jedi Council and start a movement to support his cause. Funds were not an issue for him as he was rich.
It was a huge farse.
Droid armies were being assembled by so-called separatists and led to peaceful worlds to spread voilence and instability. Republic had no option but to respond with overwhelming force. However, the supreme chancellor of the Republic also happened to be the leader of the separatist movement. Do you believe that Count Dooku did not knew this?
Malak' acts were similar to those of Palpatine. Destroying whole worlds just to send a message. On the outside, Sith were ruthless. On the inside, politics and manipulation were common occurences.
Which good and selfless person, she turned to the dark side?
Malak preferred torture over manipulation. Being artful or not - is a matter of personal opinion.
Bastilla was granted important position in the Sith Empire. It was sufficient reason for her to stick to her new position.
However, this changed the situation;
But Revan had seen its redemptive powers firsthand. It was his love that had brought Bastila back to the light; their emotional bond had wrought salvation for both of them. (Source: SWTOR - Revan)
Available evidence supports my point of view.
He demonstrated inadequate self-control for his age.
With maturity ideals change. Experience people get through their life often change their opinions and not always in positive way. Jacen Solo was kidnapped twice. Ones by Hetrir. Second time by Shadow Academy. In both cases he was tortured and thought Sith ways. Yet, darkside didn't lure him. With maturity his ideals changed. He went through a lot, he started thinking on bigger scale, he started thinking politically. He accepted Sith ways as it suited his ideals. And most notably he was selfless even as Sith, darkside did not consume him, it was his convenient tool. Even after death he did not regret it, yet, he didn't hold any anger on Jaina or anybody else.
Then why are you contradicting yourself? Obviously they couldn't enforce him to do anything but they still required him to follow certain rules. Control doesn't have to be like in empire.
My understanding is flawed? I red the book as well and know the content. There was no time limit what so ever. He got captured in process of following his vision, not Meetra Surik. And still he did not attempt to share worries with Jedi Council and he was quite close to them as he attended Jedi library.
Your logic is surprisingly one sided. How many politicians supported totalitarian regime? Were they all bad? No, they were exactly same people with different political views. How many planets enjoyed their life under Galactic Empire? And how many of those planets were suffering because of rebellion and later New Republic?
Pellaeon was one of the key figures leading Empire against New Republic. Was he a bad person? No. He had strong morals, he was noble and respected person. He died as hero and was remember as hero both by the whole galaxy. But why hero, if he was leading war against Republic? You see what I am implying on?
Separatists started war because they were unhappy with the way republic treated them. It was obviously wrong. Yet, it was, also, Republic's fault for being so weak in terms of military, otherwise no one would dare to fight Republic. In TPM republic didn't have overwhelming forces in case you forgot.
At the time of TPM he didn't.
How is it relevant at all? Did Dooku leave at that time?
She was very close to turning Mitra.
Not really sufficient for selfless person. He bent her will, twisted her mind. But there was no good reason for her to stay.
So does mine.
What exactly do you mean by that? He was perfectly self-controlled, when fighting Kenobi and Anakin first time. He didn't even relish victory over them and looked surprisingly sad. Didn't see him even ones succumbing to his anger.
He wasn't selfish and he did not succumb to darkside but used it as convenient tool.
Last edited by Arhael on Mar 14th, 2012 at 02:48 AM
Here is cut from old neighborhood wookieepedia: Many fans incorrectly assume that balance refers to an equal mix of both light and dark side users. However, as George Lucas explains in the introductory documentary for the VHS version A New Hope, Special Edition, this is not the case:
"The first film starts with the last age of the Republic, which is it's getting tired, it's old, it's getting corrupt.
There's the rise of the Sith, who are becoming a force, and in the backdrop of this we have Anakin Skywalker, a young boy who is destined to be a significant player in bringing balance back to the Force and to the Republic...
Then in the second film we get into more of that turmoil. It's the beginning of the Clone Wars, it's the beginning of the end of democracy in the Republic, sort of the beginning of the end of the Republic. And it's Anakin Skywalker beginning to deal with some of his more intense emotions of anger, hatred, sense of loss, possessiveness, jealousy, and the other things he has to cope with.
And then we will get to the 3rd film where he is seduced to the dark side..
Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."
In an interview, Lucas compared the difference between the light and dark sides as being like the difference between a symbiotic relationship and a cancer. A symbiotic relationship is one which benefits both parties and in which neither is harmed, whereas a cancer takes without giving back, eventually causing the death of both parties."
In other words balance in the Force is when both good and bad people manage to leave in harmony. While darkside is "cancer" making both good and bad people suffer. Darksiders don't follow the will of the Force, they abuse it, hence destroying the balance.
In light of the Mortis trilogy, the most sensible interpretation of what shall heretofore be referred to as The Lucasian Balance seems to be equilibrium that is achieved with the destruction of the Sith. It isn't the presence of the dark side that is problematic, but rather the presence of particular dark siders who aggravate the balance.
A dark sider is not necessarily a Sith. Keep this in mind.
This is not control. This is agreement.
Remember the behavior of Atris?
And how Revan would have attempted to share his worries with the Jedi Council during captivity?
Also, remember the case of Mandalorians? When Revan approached the Jedi Council on this issue, it refused to act. The trust factor was shaken during that very moment.
So joining the Sith was the correct path to address the issues at hand?
How the separatists were being treated?
And Republic did not had an enormous military during that time because it was a time of peace. When the civil war began, the need for enormous military also arose.
Sidious was actually giving instructions to Vice Roy Nute Gunray.
This point is not for Count Dooku. Try to follow the argument or don't respond.
She wasn't. She was using Meetra.
Being chosen as the apprentice to the Dark Lord himself and grant of special position on the Star Forge were not sufficient reasons to stay?
You should have no problem in convincing me then.
You are not getting my point. Dooku was seduced by the Sith Lord to join him and he easily fell for the false promises just like Anakin. Didn't he learn to not trust the Sith during his tenure as a Jedi? Hell, he was a Jedi Master and still demonstrated such a low self-control.
Count Dooku knows that he has been deceived not just today, but for many, many years. That he has never been the true apprentice. That he has never been the heir to the power of the Sith. He has been only a tool.
His whole life-all his victories, all his struggles, all his heritage, all his principles and his sacrifices, everything he's done, everything he owns, everything he's been, all his dreams and grand vision for the future Empire and the Army of Sith-have been only a pathetic sham, because all of them, all of him, add up only to this. (Source: ROTS book)
Very convenient tool indeed.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Mar 14th, 2012 at 07:33 PM
So the Son who was the darkside manifested, was not evil, or a sith right?
This is very interesting to me, because it means the lightside and the darkside is not inherently good and evil, but rather just tool seperate pools of power that depend entirely upon the individual to decide how they are used?
Bc it seemed the son wanted to help anakin destroy the sith who were misusing the dark side?
Atris wasn't the Jedi Council and in Kotor 2 she proved to be unwise and turned to darkside, he just randomly met her in library. Yes, I remember him approaching Council and being refused. It, also, proved wrong for him to go against Order's. And as more mature and experienced Jedi he should have understood his mistake. Also, his memories were still not recovered to have any grudge about that matter.
It wasn't but from many perspectives it looked correct and perfectly sound.
It's a common thing that remote planets suffer, while central planets blossom. And government was indeed overwhelmingly corrupted.
I was talking about Dooku's time, when Sith were unknown and in hiding. When there was a lot of uncertainties, random conflicts, instability and no clear enemy. And suddenly you jump 20 years ahead, where Palpatine didn't need to hide anymore and republic is no more. You follow argument.
Ones again it is selfish thing, which Bastilla was never interested in and never will. She was very good person with pure heart as selfless as Jedi could be. Revan wouldn't love her otherwise.
I will give five to anybody on this forum, who will be able to convince you in anything.
And you don't get my point. He lost his fate in Jedi and their philosophy before Sidius. Developed his own views and ideals. There was no Sith during his time as a Jedi. There is, also, saying don't judge a person by actions of others. Palpatine didn't need to seduce him. They had normal conversation and there was indeed a lot of common in their plans. The difference was in motives and, indeed it was stupid of him to underestimate treachery of Sith but he couldn't know how self-centering Palpatine was.
Nice source. It shows that he had aim in life. That it wasn't just stupid lust for power, his goal of forming better government stayed the same but he got betrayed. Anakin on the other hand lost any meaning in his life with death of Padme. He was suffering his whole Vader time consumed by his aimless anger.
No. Did I say that darkside needs to be eliminated entirely? You said that the Force itself needs darkside, which I disagree. It is impossible to illuminate it completely, there will always be darkness luring. Palpatine and Vader were actively participating and distorting the balance, until Anakin fulfilled the prophecy. And that is why there was Luke as galaxy needed Jedi to maintain balance by protecting galaxy from more darkness that was to come.
He was actually very evil. He tried to kill them right at the beginning. He was dreaming to take father's place and then leave the planet to dominate the galaxy.
That is very typical to give promises to bend someone's will
It actually shows that there can't be perfect balance between light and dark. Father was managing to keep his son at bay but inevitably Son ruined everything. He confronted his father. He killed his sister. He made his family suffer as well as himself. He was cancer that brought the end to everything.
Father can be considered as incarnation of the Force. And his children as it's light and dark side. Father didn't want his son to be like that, he resented him, he wanted him to change. But Son went against his "will". The will to leave together in harmony.
My argument was that The Force doesn't need darkside. And that darkside brings unbalance. Don't see any contradiction. In RotJ Palpatine and Vader were sources of unbalance and darkside is the reason for their existence. And new Jedi Order maintained balance by preventing any other Sith dominating the galaxy and creating chaos.