This is a non prep match. The rules are standard KMC non prep rules. So they each have standard equipment, no PIS, CIS is on ect.
The Battle Zone will start at 6 pm (Mountain Time, so in 10minutes) and will last 1 Month. There is a 20 post limit each. However administrative post like for example this post are not counted in a post totals. Only debating posts.
Batman vs Wolverine is a matchup that on paper, may seem to be out of the realm of possibility for Batman to win. Wolverine is a mutant with admantium skeleton a healing factor and deadly lethal claws, while Batman is only human after all. However, if we delve into Batmans true capabilities, we shall see that Batman is much more than just "only" human.
Batmans greatest weapon is his mind. In a standard arena Batman will be able to see the lethal little Wolverine has 12 inch claws and know he will have to stay away from him until he knows exactly what he's dealing with.
Considering Batmans master deductive ability he will know Wolverines full capabilities early on and be able to defeat him with skill, gadgets, and clever tactics, all in combination with each other. This will prove to be greater than Wolverines standard "swing my claws at the other guy" strategy.
Part 1: Martial Arts skills comparison
Batmans record is nearly the best for any street leveler in all of comicdom.
Batmans winning records on Top 10 martial artists and peers of the Top 10 martial artists:
Cassandra Cain
Lady Shiva
David Cain
Zeiss
Master Haim
Sensei
Azreal
Hawkman
Bane
Manhunter (Paul Kirkman)
Batmans even record with peers of the Top 10 and above:
Karate Kid !!! (This guy fights Daxamites and Supergirl evenly)
Deathstroke
Prometheus
Owlman
Batmans losing record with peers of the top 10:
Bronze Tiger - Batman has stalemated this guy twice as well. Bronze Tiger has also stalemated Deathstroke.
Wolverines record is not as stellar unfortunately
Winning record:
Iron fist- * during an exhibition match with no claws or Iron Fist while both characters were considerably holding back. Perhaps not a real win but should be mentioned nontheless.
Captain America- possibly his most impressive win, also proves that pressure points and soft tissue attacks (tendons ligaments etc.) can be damaged for extended periods of time.
And that's it. That is Wolvies winning record on peers of the Top 10
Wolverines even record:
Shang Chi- one win one loss.
Daken * Daken is prolly on the lower skill level around Punisher level, and is about equal on average with Wolverine. - Lost due to stab wounds.
Mr X- proves Logan can be knocked out.
Wolverines losing record:
Daredevil - a clear step above Wolverine. Out of 4 fights Wolvie only looked superior once.
X23- Shows Wolverine depending on his HF too much while X23 uses a clever tactic to nullify the HF
Punisher- Wolverine lost to an explosion.
Wolverines other notable showings:
Vs Elektra also proves that Wolverine can be affected by nerve strikes and neck stabs.
Vs Kitty Pride possessed by Ogun. Susceptible to stab wounds.
Vs No name black special ops guy with laser claws. Susceptible to stab wounds. Wolverine collapses due to extreme exhuastion.
As we can see, Batmans resume is far more extensive and impressive than that of Wolverines in skill comparisons with other similarly skilled opponents. And Batman doesn't have a healing factor either, we must reach the logical conclusion that Batman is a step above Wolverine in the martial arts skill department.
Now, it has also been argued for the pro Wolverine side that Logan has the potential to kill Batman in one attack. However, the same can be said about any of the street levelers that Wolverine has lost to; Daredevil, Shang Chi, Mr X, Captain America, why hasn't Wolverine killed these guys when they have fought? And they have had extensive fights.
Batman will not be so easy to put down either.
Here Batman absorbs a potential killing move while outskilling his opponent- a ninja assassin trained by Master Kirigi.
Batman carries morphine strong enough to KO Plague, one of the 4 horsemen that Black Adam fought in WW3. If the morphine does not KO Wolvie it will at least disorient him during the fight, giving Batman the advantage.
Any single gadget may not be enough to stop Wolverine. However, multiple gadgets in combination with Batmans superior martial arts will prove too much for the damage soaking mutant.
__________________ Batman officially defeats Wolverine.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f105/t562753.html
Vs Azreal. Many people know about Jean Paul Valley replacing Batman after Knightfall. Many people do not know after Bruce came back JPV mastered The System - the genetically encoded program to make him the most fomidable assassin in The Order of Saint Dumas- making him a solid midtier threat.
As we can see Batman is smart enough to know what he's dealing with before rushing in and fighting Wolverine hand to hand. Batman will survey the situation and use his skill and gadgets in combination to overcome him.
I will also counter any and all arguments by Dum Dum with sound logic and evidence. NONE of my counter points will include the word PIS.
__________________ Batman officially defeats Wolverine.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f105/t562753.html
Wolverine is much more than simply a healing factor and claws. That is very simplistic view of his characters abilities. He is physically a superhuman in every conceivable way. He has not only superhuman senses capable of amazing feats like sensing attacks before they come or tracking people thousands of miles. He also possesses superhuman physique. He beyond peak humans like Batman physically, be it speed, strength, stamina ect. Both Marvel and DC have agreed that he physically a superhuman no less.
DC vs Marvel: Wolverine stats. (To my knowledge this is recognized on the boards as cannon) http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/...bilitieswt6.jpg
That’s a great idea in theory. However the execution of said strategy is going to be near impossible for Batman to accomplish. Wolverine will take this fight to melee as soon as possible. There really very little Batman can do to stop this from occurring. Wolverine is simply on another level of speed then Batman. Sure Batman can hang, but he is slower. There a reason why wolverine has consistently had other hero’s commenting upon his speed. That is because it well beyond human.
When has batman repeatedly had super heroes comment on his speed? When has he hit a target some one of Cyclopes abilities was unable to even track? When has he moved so fast people like Spiderman are question their own speed against him? Wolverine has superhuman levels of speed rivaling that of characters like Spiderman. These are not some typical bullet dodging feats that every street leveler has. These are established characters speeds being directly compared to Wolverines. This is Wolverine having Meta humans question their speed against him. This is Wolverine having his speed clocked on panel as being well into the superhuman levels. Batman is still very much human. He has been made quite clear to be physically inferior to character like death stroke who are superhuman physically. That does not bold well for Batman possessing any ability to prevent Wolverine from closing the distances and quickly. He won’t be able to outpace Wolverine. Wolverine will close the distance that is simply a fact.
Again you are using a very simplistic view of Wolverines character in an attempt to down play him. He is a master Tactician and martial artists. Wolverine is extremely smart. Yes he not as clever as Batman, but he very clever in his own right. He not one of Batman crazy rogues or some idiot Batman can manipulate into defeating himself. Wolverine is going to know right away what he needs to do to get the job done. He will clear the distance between them and bring the fight into melee where he holds all the advantages. Batman has really no way to prevent this from transpiring neither. His damage soak is beyond the levels of what Batman produce with his standard gear before Wolverine mauls him. Also Wolverine is quite capable of dodging anything Batman throws his way as well. Wolverine does not need to simply sit there as Batman attempts to take him out. He can and will dodge what is thrown his way.
You did not make much of a comparison.
It not, you simply exaggerating it and leaving out context purposely it would seem.
And your Top ten list is absolutely bogus. That not DC top ten martial artist. Very few of the people you mention are top 10, pretty much just Shiva, sensei and Batgirl. You pretty much handpicked a group of guys and stated there top 10 but there not. And it almost a slap in the face that you actually expect anyone to buy that nonsense
One of the few characters you list who is actually a top 10 martial artist. However batman does not have a legit winning record against Batgirl. One of the fights batgirl did not have her body reading ability and was not even capable of going out on patrol batgirl # 7. Another match was simply a sparring match in Batgirl issue # 1 that ended inconclusive, but if anything Batgirl won not Batman. Then they had one actual fight which was Batgirl issue 50, which ended in a stalemate. So please tell me how batman has a winning record against top 10 dc martial artist batgirl, like you claim?
This is pretty much the only other character on your list who is actually a top ten martial artist in DC. However like with batgirl you pretend Batman has a legit winning record, but he does not. You keep leaving out context and being vague I believe purposely. Batman beat a mind control Lady Shiva. She was not operating at 100%. Mind control directly affects one skill level and effectiveness in general. The only legit fight they had ended in a stalemate. Also Batman has straight up stated he never beaten Lady Shiva in h2h in the graphic novel Batgirl Fists of Fury.
Again you are exaggerating Batman’s record. David Cain is not a top ten martial artist and never has been. He better fighter then a lot of your supposed “top 10” list, but that just shows what a joke of a list you made. He a 2nd tier fighter who skilled enough to hang with the best sometimes, but never wins. He has been badly beaten by top 10 martial artists to boot. He is Bucky except he does not even have the victories Bucky has (like beating down cross bones and black widow to name a few). Wolverine has never lost to Bucky in any encounter and neither would he lose to David Cain.
Again with you exaggerating Batmans record, by pretending rogues of his are top ten martial artist when there not. He relies on his goggles which enhance his perception as well as his reflexes which have been enhanced through bionics. He not top 10 martial artist, that is a very ridiculous claim. That would be the equivalent of me pretending Lady Death strike is top 10 martial artist in Marvel. In fact what you’re claiming could very well be worse, lady deathstrike has at the very least comparable feats, but I would even wager she has the superior skill feats to Zeiss. She also does not spend her time fighting individuals with inferior reaction time and perception, like Zeiss does. She fights other super humans with comparable reaction time and speed. You my friend are simply exaggerating Batman record by pumping his rogues up beyond the level of skill there actually at.
He is not top 10 Martial artist. You are completely fluffing batman record and pretending people are top ten martial artist who are clearly not. This character was only in like five issue starting from Legends of the Dark Knight #129 and ended at 131 I believe. The story is about how Batman and Green Arrow first met. Batman who would have been younger and less experienced defeated Master Haim in one on one fight. So how can you even try to suggest that master Haim is top 10 martial artist in DC? You can’t, you simply picked this character and stated he top 10 Martial artist, in hopes that he was obscure enough as to fly under the radar. You are exaggerating Batman record to make it seem far more impressive then it is. He is skilled, but he is not remotely top 10, he does not have the showings nor history.
Also there a is a very good chance this is not cannon anymore to boot. The issue was Batman first meeting with Green Arrow, but that meeting could very well have changed, since the reboot.
This is worse than if I had me claimed Yukio was top 10 martial artist. Do you understand that you can not just pretend people are top 10 martial artist simply to pump Batman up?
Why do you keep leaving out context? Batman never beat Sensei through any form of martial arts skill. He was getting his shit kicked in for pretty much the entire fight. Sensei stated he was old and lacked the stamina to fight longer then two minutes. And even still Batman needed a plot device to win. Sensei fell into the pool of life which burned him. The fact you trying to pass this off as some legit skill showing of Batman out fighting a top 10 opponents is down right ridiculous.
Except you know he not top 10 at all. As par for the course you are fluffing batman record up by exaggerating the Martial arts prowess of batmans rouges.
He skilled but not remotely top 10. He reasons he formidable has to do with his enhanced stats. Which are not even at the level any of Wolverine Rogues
He pretty much Shatter Star. Except you know Shatter star has better speed and strength feats.
He not a top 10 martial artist. He old and experienced, but that does not make you top 10 martial artist. He has no feats or showings of skill that place him at that level at all. He skilled but top 10 fighter in DC is ridiculous statement. That like me pretending Wolverine whooping on Hercules (which he done) is top 10 MA win. Again you’re fluffing up batman’s MA record.
Another clear guy who clearly not a top 10 Martial Artist yet here you are pretending he is. Your seriously exaggerating Batmans record by making absurd statements like Bane a top 10 MA. He not nor the vast majority of the people you put on Batman “top 10 list”. He is a good fighter with superhuman strength. Which is what makes him so formidable, it not simply his skill level. He never has been considered a top 10 martial artist. Wolverine would put an absolute beating on Bane. He has a rogue he who slightly less skilled Bane except physically superior in ever senses. That rogue would be Rough-House who Wolverine beats regularly in hand two hand. http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/...istfightqa4.jpg http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/...stfight2nm9.jpg http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/...stfight3yw5.jpg
Rough-house being stated that his strength is not“ quite Hulk level” . (Should note that Rough-house durability is superhuman durability as well to the point most forms of gun firer cannot pierce his skin) http://imageshack.us/photo/my-image...house20002.jpg/
That character does not exist. You must be referring to Paul Kirk or Kirk DePaul. Paul Kirk I don’t recall ever fighting Batman. And most of those issue take place during the 1970 and early 1980’s which I pretty certain would not be cannon to modern Batman. Nor did Paul Kirk ever display himself to be a top 10 Martial artist. As for Kirk DePaul, they fought in issue Power Company issue 5. Batman easily wins, but Kirk DePaul has never been considered or displayed anything to consider him top 10 martial artist.
Again you are being misleading. They had one short inconclusive fight. Then Batman fought alternate karate kid from 31 century. He had medical issues which gave him problems breathing. He was not 100% when he fought batman. Karate kid was also stated to be a level 15 fighter in superman database when he had Batman as a level 12. He also was beating Batman until black lightning knocked him out from behind. He had removed batman utility belt and was wining the fight. This happen in countdown issue 50 and Justice league of America volume 2 issue 8.
Deathstroke is not a top 10 martial artist and never has been. He simply superhuman in every way and hold physical advantage over characters like batman, night wing ect. The reason they put up the fights that they do against him is because he lacks there skill. He second tier martial artist in skill, but he physically superior in every way to human based characters like batman, night wing ect. that he over whelms them after extended period.
Except for the fact that’s not the TOP ten fighters in DC. You have like two legitimate top 10’ers on that list. The rest are 2nd tier at best, some maybe even third tier. You hand picking batman wins and pretending there top 10 fighters is downright absurd. Bane, Azreal, Hawlk, ManHunter, Mast Haim and Zeis(TaskMaster) are not top 10 martial artist.
That’s amusing seeing as how it far better then you have been implying. And Batman record is not nearly as great as you have stated. In fact I found numerous wholes in your argument like the fact almost none of the characters your mention where actual top 10 martial artist. Then the ones that were Batman did not even have wining records against like you had implied. You in fact remained vague purposely it would seem because when context is given for his “victories” we find much to be desired.
Wolverine has actually been on winning side of two fights actually. One was when he gave Capt a blood clot during Origins. The other time he had the mind of a werewolf and pinned Captain after few panel of action. Captain America never hit Wolverine with a pressure point attack in either one of these encounters. He crushed his tendons in the origins fight. Also can you please provide context to the event is question? You keep ignoring context in order to down play Wolverine and upstage Batman. Wolverine had been running himself ragged prior to the fight with Captain America. He was constantly on the move because he was being hunted by Shield, as the most wanted man on the planet. He also fought Nuke who possess vast superhuman strength prior to engaging Captain America. Even still that’s rather low showing for his healing factor compared to his normal portrayals, but much better then you are suggesting with the lack of context you provided in your “examples”.
That’s not true at all, you seem very miss informed.
Par for the course it seems, you are incorrect with several of your “examples”, I explain below in detail.
Please stop making statements without providing context, it very miss leading. They had only one real fight, the other match was a training match. The issue is Wolverine First Class issue 9 Wolverine goes to train with Shang-chi to help him beat sabre-tooth. Shang-chi spars with Wolverine and gains the advantage using his surroundings. It implied he losing due to his personal hang ups. Wolverine later faces Sabre-tooth and beats him using his surrounding much like Shang-chi. He later shows up at Shang-chi dojo and the following ensues implying such hang ups are no more http://imageshack.us/photo/my-image...ining20001.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-image...ining20002.jpg/
Even if this statement was true, which it not, that still put Daken on the same levels as 70% of your supposed “top 10 martial artis” craptastic list you came up with to exaggerate Batman record.
Also why do you keep leaving out context? It well documented that Wolverine holds back against Daken, because it his son. While Daken hates Wolveirne beyond all else and has tried to kill him several times and yet still Daken was only able to claim victory a single time out of a number of fights. So what on earth makes you think this helps your argument? Will Wolverine be holding back against Batman who blood lusted trying to kill him? Does batman have the power to control pheromones to manipulate one perception? Does Batman have superhuman physical stats? Does batman have a healing factor? Does batman have intimate knowledge of Wolverine? Nope. So again please explain to me how on earth daken helps your argument? Frankly your simply reaching.
Wolverine then beat Mister X the next two fights both times Blok had to step in to save Mister X life. So no actually Wolverine has beaten Mister X twice and Mister X was able to defeat a weaken Wolverine once.
Last edited by Dum Dum Dugan on Apr 7th, 2012 at 08:57 PM
Now the other issue that you referring to was Ennis run which Wolverine, Spiderman and Daredevil team up to track down Punisher, which is absurd in itself that they need to team up to deal with Punisher when all three have handle him quite fine on there own. However again you ignore context. Wolverine fought both Spiderman and Daredevil at the time same time. He dropped Spiderman with a nut shot, and then Daredevil took him out via an adams apple shot. This is one of the single most PIS moments which contradict decades of Wolverines comics.
Here Wolverine with vastly weaker healing factor then he currently has because it prior to his healing upgrades. He takes a shot to the neck that would “stun normal man” while poisoned no less http://imageshack.us/photo/my-image...neckstrike.jpg/
These are just some of numerous showings, which clearly show that Wolverine being dropped by a mere adams apple shot is by definition PIS.
Here Wolverine defeats Daredevil in hand two hand. Should be noted that Daredevil is under the influence of Typhoid mary. However she is not capable of mind control. She simply influences Daredevil emotions to make him infatuated with her. He attacks Wolverine from behind thinking he is attempting to kill Typhoid Mary. They then fight in hand two hand were Wolverine out fights Daredevil putting him into a full nelson. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-image...verinevsdd.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-image...erinevsdd2.jpg/
The most recent fight they had was during the “death of chaptain america” in which they had brief exchange which was inconclusive. Wolverine ambushes Daredevil who dodges it, and states “I could smell your breath from a mile away” as he launch his bill club at Wolverine who easily catches it with his claws, Wolverine states he needed to make sure he was the real McCoy, because several people had taken the identity of Daredevil in recent times. Niether looked to be more impressive.
So as with numerous of your statements, when context is given we find that your “examples” are very much inaccurate and lack any context which is vital to understanding what had transpired. The only real one on one fight they had, wolverine out fought Daredevil, not the other way around.
Again you are not only wrong, but being miss leading. X-23 does not have a winning record against Wolverine. She most certainly has never been portrayed as superior in skill either which your implying.
Here the match you are referring to which you were being extremely miss leading. X-23 is going all out on Wolverine, while Wolverine is holding back. How on earth you ever came to the conclusion this gives X-23 a winning record against Wolverine is utterly mind baffling.
They also fought in hand two hand in Uncanny x-men 450 in which Wolverine easily out maneuvers her, stating “enough of this foolishness” as he flips her over. When he helping her up stating “all I wanna do is TALK” she stabs him in the chest and runs away. Wolverine was clearly displayed as the more skilled of the two.
So what seems to be par for the course is that you’re making up Wolverine record, your leaving out context and your exaggerating Batmans wins and opposition skill level.
You act like you’re doing a skill comparison but then make statements like this... What does explosion have to do with skill? Oh that’s right absolutely nothing.
And as par for the course, your wrong. Wolverine does not have a losing record against Punisher. That simply more nonsenses your pulling out your back end.
In there first encounter Punisher even admits he can’t take Wolverine and acknowledges everything he able to accomplish is due to dumb luck. Also Punisher who was supposed to be teamed up with Wolverine drives a steam roller on top of him while he distracted by the villains.
Punisher fights Wolverine in War journal twice. Once after Punisher fight a gorilla he engages Wolverine shortly after in a fight but is taken down by a mere glancing blow. They also fight again with no conclusive winner because the fight was interrupted.
The encounter you’re referring to, you yet again leave out context. This seems to be a running trend with you. Wolverine first off was not even knocked out by the rocket he was hit hit by it and was still in fact standing. You also left out the fact that they were not even fighting one another. Punisher ambushed Wolverine, Daredevil and Spiderman with the rocket who were standing on a building. And Wolverine was written like a complete moron he literally stood in place as the rocket came towards him yell to spiderman and Daredevil asking where they were going. Which is utterly ridiculous that he could not even hear the rocket, when he has superhuman senses capable of hearing heart beats. Also it gets far worse than that, Daredevil, Wolverine and Spiderman could not even locate Punisher from 30 feet away. Do you understand how absurd that is? They were looking for him, both Wolverine and Daredevil can track people across states, but somehow could not sense Punisher from 30 feet away? Punisher also in that arc tricked spiderman into staying in a room with fake bombs (again what happen to his SS?) , beat Daredevil in a fight and had the friggin Hulk hostage (which is absurd). Wolverine and Spiderman both were written like they were retarded. Oh guess who the issue was written by? Garth Ennis no less a known hater of super powered hero’s in marvel. He notorious for writing humor driven comics at the expenses of marvels super powered hereos.
In fact here a link that talks about Ennis. Stating in this link that “Ennis has consistently refused to write well is Wolverine, who is an idiotic collection of his own cliches every time he appears in Ennis's work.” http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GarthEnnis
Oh also here is another Article this one I believe was written by Ennis. Here the article at one part even states Wolverine by name” I’ve never been able to care about Batman, or Wolverine, or Iron Man… or any of them, really. “ http://www.bleedingcool.com/2009/08...was-the-future/
I find this doubtful in fact I bet there going to be completely lacking context if not straight up wrong.
Yup I was right, you are leaving out context.
I notice you forgot the mention that Wolverine was on life support mere minutes if not second before his engagement with Elektra. Interesting you say nothing about this. Almost like you purposely left it out in order to down play Wolverine
“he has 90% burns on his body and looks like hamburger meat” http://imageshack.us/photo/my-image...fesupport0.jpg/
Wolverine was not remotely 100%. His healing factor/life support brought him back from the brink of death mere minutes before the fighting started. Interesting further that you try and pretend this some how validates nerve strikes as viable option. Even if we for some ridiculous reason ignored the fact he had just comeback from brink of death and was missing part of his soul. You also again leave out the fact she had to wait until Wolverine was pinned by shield agents, another huge amount of context you just conveniently left out. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-image...lektra0001.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-image...lektra0002.jpg/
His healing factor is so much more powerful now then it was back then. it not even comparable the gap is so large.
That is a vast understatement. Though as typically the cases it seems with you, context is ignored yet again. He was not simply some guy with laser claws, that’s a gross simplification.
He had spent 5 days being hunted, then when they went back to there safe house, he left the jungle to track them down. It also could not have been much more then a day or two since he left the jungle when he faces the leader one on one. He fought him for pretty much the entire issue taking countless damage from one end of city to another. He also not only beat that guy, but killed him. He did pass out after wards, but the vagueness of your statement is rather misleading. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/28/killsi.jpg/
Also when Wolverine first squared off with strike force X, it was against two of their members. He stated after a few minutes of fighting that they would need more than two of them to take him down. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-image...yclaws0002.jpg/
No it not. Your examples were ridiculously misleading. You named numerous characters that were not even top 10 and pretend they were. You gave batman winning records against characters he does not have such records against. You pretended that batman beat characters via skill, when he did not. You also ignore context constantly to push your agenda. You also down played Wolverine at every turn. You purposely remained vague and left context out. Stating Wolverine has losing records he does not have. You pretty much made everything up. Hell you have two people in your top 10 who have been in like 7 comics, how on earth you can pretend someone top 10 martial arts when they have no legit wins over top tier MA via skill is absurd.
Please, nothing you have stated so far has been logical. You pretty much have just made things up as you went.
Last edited by Dum Dum Dugan on Apr 7th, 2012 at 09:43 PM
Yes he can potentially kill Batman in a single hit. It not some far fetch notion, he could stab him in the heart, brain, cleave arms off, legs all of which are well within his abilities to do.
I already explained that these “loses” you keep going on about are not what you are making them out to be. In fact you completely ignore context of the fights in question. Context is everything, anyone can make vague statements and pretend there facts. There not, and I provided ample evidence that seems to indicate either you honestly have not read the comics in question, or that you are simply purposely leaving out context to get your agenda past.
Wolverine is not trying to kill them, and has beaten them without such need for lethal course of action. Even mind control Wolverine tried his best not to kill Daredevil. Wolverine could have killed shang-chi as clear as day in the scans I posted. He not trying kill them, which is why he has not. Wolverine has never lost to Captain America, you are being miss leading again. Mr. X is the only one on the list Wolverine has actively tried to kill. The reason he survived is because Blok (Ogun) saved his life on two occasions. Also Mister X powers are tailor made to avoid getting hit, let alone mortally.
He will be vastly easier to put down then Wolverine that is for dam sure.
Batman is wearing his suit which is designed to be body armor that can withstand things such as bullets. It has ample protection against a sword slash. That slash was not very deep at all because armor protects him from taking severe damage, which is the entire point of his armor. He did out fight that ninja by using the vibrating hand technique, but do not try and over sell that as some mortal wound he withstood. If you are suggesting that batman could use a similar strategy against Wolverine, you are very mistaken. Batman body armor would be of no protection against adamatium claws, and he would have been gutted were he stood if he attempt such a charge against Wolverine.
As for out skilling his opponent, I do not believe that any more impressive then when Wolverine defeated 11 of the deadliest Samurai to ever walk the earth. In fact I wager it less impressive. Wolverine not only defeated them all, but they had been mystically brought back from beyond as zombies that could only be defeated via head shots. He out fought all 11 fairly handily I might add.
What on earth is this supposes to prove? You do understand there a massive difference between single knife blades and three foot long blade stabbing into you? Do you also understand there a huge difference between what adamatium can do to you compared to a normal blade? Also do you understand that Wolverine can’t be disarmed? Do you also understand that Wolverine is significantly stronger then batman and more durable? These scans are not remotely comparable to the threat Wolverine is in melee nor the damage he can unleash.
So plain and simple, Ziess could not hope to replicate the type of damage with his knifes that Wolverine can produce with his claws. There not remotely on the same level.
No he not relevant at all, you are exaggerating Batman opposition again. The issue is JLA welcome to the working week by Paton Oswalt. Feast did nothing out side his brief fight with Batman, the fact you are stating he “highly skilled” is very misleading. It even more misleading that you not only trying to pretend that Feast is similar to Wolverine, but that there “very similar” is just plain down right lie. He was never stated to have enhanced stats let alone on a comparable level to Wolverine. He also was never stated to have a healing factor either. He was alien life form with unknown abilities, but displayed some greater strength and damage soak then that of human like Batman. Almost every reference made that you posted as “evidence” was him talking about other people. But don’t worry I will get to that.
It amusing that you would post this scan as evidence. Because it purposely taken out of context. When FEAST states to Batman in the scan you posted above “does it bother you not to have the strength and speed and vision of the others”, he referring to Batman teammates not himself. However without the scan before it or any explanation of context, it misleads people to believe FEAST is referring to himself. As you can all see from the scan below they were clearly referring to the monitor which was watching the various members of Batman team http://imageshack.us/photo/my-image...terslieing.jpg/
Now you most likely are going to deny that you took this out of context on purposes, but why else did you post this scan? There no other reason. Of course you may try to pretend you posted it because FEAST stated he was immortal, but that again is just as miss leading. The fact he stated himself to be immortal does not mean he has a healing factor let a lone on the level of Wolverine. So either you posted this scan out of complete ignorence which begs the question of why you would post a scan of an issue you have not read. Or you have read the issue and posted the scan out of context in hope to manipulate the judges into believing batman has foughten someone comparable to Wolverine.
Here you misleading people, FEAST is talking directly about the people he unleashed the mist upon that he has been developing. He is not making any statements about his own abilities. Nor does he state or even remotely imply that he has exposes himself to it. In fact the effect it has upon the people exposed proves that he has not been exposed to the mist. In fact he suggest in your very scan that the purposes of the mist is to harvest those exposed to it for parts as a business venture. Which begs the question, why did you post this as if it was evidence for your statements that FEAST was comparable to Wolverine? Oh that’s right to mislead people by suggesting that his statements were in reference to his own attributes.
Here the scan that actually has to do directly with FEAST not him describing others abilities. Though this is quite baffling as to what this scan does to support your stance that his abilities are comparable to Wolverine. I mean I am not all that surprised given the fact you posted the first two scans as evidence for Feast abilities despite the fact neither scan was in reference to his powers. Are you under the impression that withstanding a attack such as that is indication that feast is comparable to Wolverine abilities? Because if so you are your vastly underestimating Wolverine capabilities and vastly overrating what Feast displayed in that scan. That blast was so small in magnitude that a normal kid was protected by a chair from only a few feat away. Which shows that the blast was not remotely on the level your post would suggest with the assertion that this scan supports you stance of Feast being comparable to wolverine.
Are you serous right now? This is an immense exaggeration. Absorbs a killing stroke? Come on now, that is ridiculous. Feast was beating on him with his own physical abilities. There was no weapon, not killing strike. If you honestly believe that Batman was absorbing a killing move based on feast beating on him in hand two hand. How on earth do you believe Batman stands any chance against Wolverine who faster, stronger, much better fighter, far greater damage soak then anything Feast displayed and has weapon capable of taking off Batmans body part with every swing that land?. Your exaggeration actually contradicts your argument.
Are you really trying to pretend that was a display of superhuman reflexes? . That was sleight of hand. There was nothing Superhuman about it. All batman did was put his belt on the guy while he was being beat on without the guy noticing. That not a display of superhuman reflexes. That like stating pick pockets have superhuman reflexes because they can slam into people and take there wallet without them noticing. That is a skill not a display of superhuman reflexes.
Also notice you conviently left out the page in which Batman states that the reason Hero’s win is because they are constantly learning new tricks. It also seems to be implied that he won via a trick not any type of super- fast reflexes like you are ridiculously trying to claim http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/829/batb.jpg/
Again how does this make him comparable to Wolverine? That explosion was not even that big, wolverine has tanked worse and kept on coming numerous times. There also no indication that Feast has a healing factor. His physiology is not human that clear, since he an alien and he shown in the first panel of your very scan to have several arms.
Only abilities we know he have is some form of immortality, he does not need to sleep, has some digree of inhuman durability/damage soak and strength that arguably was greater than batman’s. You assertion that he has enhanced stats and HF very similar to Wolverines is you attempting to manipulate context to fit your agenda by suggesting Batman has beaten an individual with comparable abilities to Wolverine.
This is utterly incredible; you even exaggerate what your own examples show. I am not even referring to the fact that those stab wounds he received are not remotely comparable to what Wolverine dishes out, because I have already covered that in-depth above with ample evidence. I am speaking about your statement and what your scans in fact show. You say “These examples prove that Batman can survive multiple stab wounds”, have you taken a look at the scan you posted? Only one of them has Batman taking stab wounds, and it was only two. Your first example was a single slash and your last example Feast did not even have a weapon.
Did you forget that they are restricted to standard equipment? Prove that those are both standard equipment
It not standard equipment, the entire thing was planned by Batman and Superman. The next page after the scans you posted states as much. Which you purposely left out to mislead me and the judges by posting the scans out of context. But lucky for myself and the judges I happen to have the scan.
“All that was for show? The fighting the chasing All of it”, to which both Batman and Superhuman reply “yes”. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/13/supersuv.jpg/
ps: more to come in the next few days.
Last edited by Dum Dum Dugan on Apr 7th, 2012 at 10:42 PM
You are insulting me and the judges intelligences with this bull face lie. Did you even look at the scans? Of course not you just copied it from a respect thread. If you actually look in the first scan you can easily see electrical wire. Then in the third scan you can clearly see Batman using two electrical wires to take the Giant Alien out, not his taser like you stated. So either you did not even look at the scans you posted or you thought we would be too stupid to notice the fact you can clearly see Batman using electrical wires. Either way it makes you look foolish.
Also it gets worse, you also conveniently left out the fact Plague had not compensated for being earth issue. Which batmans explanation for how Plague was taken out so easily. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-image...eavingoutc.jpg/
Prove that those are standard equipment. There not, in fact that’s the only time I even seen Batman utilize self-propelled Batarangs, let alone ones capable of taking out a number of Doomday clones. If Batman had those as standard equipment he would have no issue with any of his rogues.
Also you left out the context that the clones were flawed, and Batman was capable of taking them down with an axe. They still possessed vast superhuman strength for they were able to launch superman a significant distance. They however display still relatively high blunt force durability, there piercing durability seems to be at a lower level. They were overall significantly less formidable then the real thing. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-image...n10doomsda.jpg/
Again can you provide evidence that this is in fact standard gear? And evidence of the type of damage it inflicts? In the scan you provided it does not even indicate if it is acid.
Also why on earth would Wolverine let Batman, the slower character throw acid in his face? Let alone let him throw acid in his face and then get kicked? What Wolverine just gunna sit there and let Batman attack him? Seems like your reaching badly.
How on earth is grappling with the faster, stronger opponent with claws capable taking body parts completely off easily mind you, remotely a good strategy for Batman? Do you want him to die? Because this is very ridiculous strategy to even bring up as a possible advantage for Batman because it plays directly into Wolverine hand which is melee.
Last edited by Dum Dum Dugan on Apr 11th, 2012 at 02:54 AM
Prove that it is part of Batman standard gear. Batman to my knowledge has not used an explosive Batarang since well before the creation of of NDCU. He constantly uses normal ones, but I cant recall him using an explosive one in very long time, even then it was never regularly. So I am not seeing the relevance in bring up example of a gear that’s not standard in match were the character are restricted to standard gear only.
As for the speed portion of your statement you are exaggerating what actually happened on panel based on hyperbole statement made by Nightwing. Dick made statement about prototype amazo having flashes abilities after acknowledging that the power would not be effective due to the leg injury that Batman had given Prototype Amazo. However prototype amazo never utilized his speed prior to the injury. He literally stood in the same spot and simply slapped away Batman exploding pellets. Batman used the distraction to stab Amazo in the leg with exploding batarang. Prototype Amazo could not feel the stab, did not even notice the exploding Batarang until it was too late. None of which had anything to do with Batman speed in comparison to flashes speed. Because there is no comparison if he actually used flash level speed batman would not be able to even perceive it nor could Wolverine for that matter. Also prototype Amazo displayed nothing remotely on the same level as Amazo. So I am not really sure why you would even think to take Dick’s statement to mean protoamazo was even remotely comparable to flashes level of speed, when you could see on panel it clearly was not.. Prototype Amazo abilities were pale reflections of the justice league characters they originated from. His flying speed was nothing to talk home about, nor his durability. He lost his ability for flight due to stabs to the ear, he has severally damage leg from not a very big explosion and he was taken out by a rocket. His abilities may have been based off the league members but they clearly were not remotely on the same level.
Here the rest of the fight Batman/nightwings have with ProtoAmazo. ProtoAmazo is taken down by a missile in the end by the bat mobile. None of his abilities were remotely on the same level of the justice league. They were all significantly weaker as seen on panel. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/801/bat1.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/14/bat3na.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/189/bat4g.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/804/bat5.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/836/bat6.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/805/bat7.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/190/bat8.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/855/bat9.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/201/bat10.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/803/bat11.jpg/
Wolverine has a more impressive encounter with Ragnarok. He able to fight in toe to toe by himself in midair against Ragnarok for a number of panels until there separated by Luke cage who engages Ragnarok. Ragnarok unlike ProtoAmazo actually as several showings all of which indicate him to be more formidable than what ProtoAmazo displayed. Ragnarok is a Clone of Thor though not as powerful.
Also not sure why you are under the impression Wolverine has difficulty dealing with explosions either. He taken are sorts of damage and kept right on trucking. The idea explsive batarangs putting Wolverine down seems doubtful given the numerous times he tank much worse and kept on coming.
Even if you could prove exploding batarangs are standard gear, which in it self seems doubtful. Wolverine has no problem tanking such attacks if they landed as seen above. That even assuming Batman could land them which would be quite the task given Wolverine superior speed. Wolverine ability to tank explosions makes Batman chances of putting Wolverine down via explosion not only doubtful given Batman standard gear, but near impossible.
Any single gadget is not enough. And your entire argument relies on equipment that you have yet to prove is standard gear. You assume Wolverine just going to sit there an let himself get hit. You also are under the assumption such gear is even capable of putting down a Wolverine before he closes the dtsances and put his claws on batman. It not. Wolverines not only can dodge pretty much anything Batman throws at him, but he also quite capable of simply tanking it. Also already provided ample evidence which proves your martial arts list is not only horse shit, but that your records given are inaccurate and exaggerated.
Last edited by Dum Dum Dugan on Apr 11th, 2012 at 03:02 AM
Batman may not have Wolverines blatant superhuman stats but he is close enough to keep up. He also has something Wolverine does not have, being the greatest MA in the DCU.
This is inconsistent with Wolverines own track record with Cyclops blasts as Cyclops has been able to blast him many times. Especially in their last fight which was a stalemate. Wolverine has only been able to defeat Cyclops with the aid of a magical sword which helped deflect the blasts.
Judging how Batman performed on the second page he prolly took out those first gorillas at least as effeciently as Wolverine his humans. Also shows how tactical he is as the JLA was heading right into Grodds trap until he stops them. Then Superman screws it up lol.
Batman proves more than fast enough to take out a meta human who can create force fields with his mind before the meta can react or even think to form any force fields with his mind which is very fast. http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/...batmetarang.jpg
Batman's speed feats prove that he's more than capable of defending against and countering Logan's speed. That combined with his Batmans unmatched stealth will be enough take down Logan.
As far as Deathstroke goes, their last battle ended with Batman dominating and KOing Slade before Slade could even get the chance to use his sword so blitzing won't work under normal circumstances.
Superman and Hal Jordan have called Batman the most dangerous man in the world because of his mind as well as many other characters. There's no question that Batman is a smarter and more clever fighter which is why he's the tactical and strategic leader of the JLA.
That is just plain untrue. Batman has plenty of options from a good old fashioned hogtie (assuming he is presented with the opportunity) to drugs and chemicals and expanding capture foam to Doomsday Clone and Amazo busting explosives. Its over for Wolverine if he is incinerated as that would count as a loss, unless we are granting enough time for Wolverine to heal, which would be ridiculous.
Batman is very likely to use stealth, speed, skill, and weaponry (like using gas to block/confuse his senses) to keep his distance easily.
Wolverine has been tagged repeatedly by A-list MAs and people slower than Batman like the Punisher so even if he did get close its not like Bruce wouldn't be able to use his skill to defend himself and land damaging attacks. Like so: http://imageshack.us/f/696/punishervswolverine1.jpg/
Notice how a skilled placement of a bullet can hurt Wolverine and disable movement. Batman could easily replicate that with a Batarang provided the opprtunity of course. Now I am sure there are other times when Wolverine has taken worse bullets to the leg, but are any of those guys more skilled with a placement of a bullet than Punisher? (possible but probobly not)
Not only that but Punisher didn't have to get close to Logan. Frank could have started firing from farther away giving him more of an advantage. Again provided you think Batman is skilled enough to do the same with a Batarang, explosive or otherwise.
Wolverine doesnt have the best record of dodging stuff. Here are some similar gadgets that Batman can use that Wolverine hasn't dodged.
Notice how Wolverine cant hit Fury while affected by the gas. Batman would take major advantage here. Using nerve strikes and explosive batarangs and tranquilizers or getting on top of him getting him in a submission hold like a joint lock. The only possible way to escape it would be to break ones own bone, and since Wolverines bones cant be broken Batman can keep him in a joint lock indefinetly until the match is over. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-image...dychoicesp.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/f/818/wolverinebloodychoicesp.jpg/
Finally his vision is clear. He hits Fury from behind as he escapes the darkness of the shack. He states that Fury could beat him on any given day, confirming Wolverines skill level as somewhere below the top 10. http://imageshack.us/f/405/wolverinebloodychoicesp.jpg/
Here Wolverine confirms he was paralyzed due to Elektras nerve strikes. Elektra also highly damages Wolvies neck, something Batman could easily duplicate with a couple of Batarangs used as melee weapons. http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/...ge_08_super.jpg
(I only mention the Elektra fight because it displays 2 valid ways for Wolverine to be incapacitated by Batman.)
Wolverine finally overpowers the tazer and destroys it due to Fury being blinded from the effect of the tazer. Wolverine wont be able to do that to Batman as he is much faster and more skilled than Fury, that and Batmans electrical devices won't have a blinding effect on its user.
Notice how Wolverine doesnt even defeat him as the the tazers feedback KO's Fury. This kind of defect would never happen to one of Batmans gadgets. Not to mention this fight would be over before that had Fury not given Wolverine the chance to recover. Batman will take advantage of the situation imediatley as he is ruthless like that, and it will be an easier fight than Nick Fury had as he has better stamina, is faster and more skilled than an old Nick Fury past his prime.
Now I am sure there are more recent examples of Logan being unaffected by gas and electricity, especially with modern performances of the HF, but we have to consider than Batmans gadgets are going to be top of the line and prolly more powerful than Fury's equipment thus possibly evening out with Wolverine's more powerful HF nowadays.
You never challenged Prometheus.
Who is on your Top Ten list for DC? And might as well give me your list for Marvel as well.
CASSANDRA CAIN:
Detective Comics #734 shows Bruce defeating Cass in a sparring contest of skill as they're seen using Cain's suicide drill.
Batgirl #50 had Batman holding back but also dominating Cass in hth combat at one point before NW interfered. Batman purposely led Cass around the city so they could work out their problems and used their fight as a form of therapy (since violence is a language Cass best understands) as explained at the end of the comic.
Plus, Batman normally holds back against his Bat Family members as seen in his battles against Robin (Tim), Batgirl (Steph), and Nightwing.
While its true they were communicating at first thru fighting, the suicide run part was a clear display of skill to see who would go on to fight David Cain. Batman proved better.
Compare that to the Wolverine vs Iron Fist sparring match and they are at least equal showings. Batmans may be more impressive as Jim Gordons life was in danger (Two face hired Cain to kill him). Which means both Batman and Batgirl would be trying their hardest to have the best chance of defeating Cain.
Compared to the Wolvie vs IF exhibition match where there was nothing at stake and both characters stated they were holding back.
SHIVA:
This was before the Superman Batman fight they had so this doesn't matter.
__________________ Batman officially defeats Wolverine.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f105/t562753.html
Batman had gone through a gauntlet of super villains back to back literally alongside Superman including having just beaten Solomon Grundy who nearly drowned him (or appeared as though he almost did anyway). Right after taking down Grundy we saw Shiva sneak attacking Batman who's attention was on Grundy. Batman had zero time to recover in between fights so he wasn't in peak condition anyway so if anything Batman despite being handicapped proved he was still able to defeat Shiva. http://s289.photobucket.com/albums/...-batvshiva1.jpg
Notice here how Batman speculates Shiva may not even be mind controlled and Batman doesn't notice a difference in her skill. Shiva is also skilled enough to kick Batman after the sucker shot. She also displays high level combat speed in classic speed blitz fashion which she has never done before showing she is still massivley skilled. http://s289.photobucket.com/albums/...-batvshiva2.jpg http://s289.photobucket.com/albums/...-batvshiva3.jpg
Mind controlled or not this fight proved that Bruce is capable of defeating Shiva or a fighter with Shiva's level of raw skill even if a battle between them wouldn't go down like this everytime.
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I find it hilarious you are comparing young Bucky, the equivalent of a young Robin, to David Cain lol. How many Top 10ers does he have to train besides Batman and Batgirl? And he was considered a peer to Shiva and Bronze Tiger in Rais Al Ghuls original League of Assassins.
Now, if Zeiss isnt such a threat, why would Batman need Batgirl around if he could handle him by himself? If he needed slightly more help he could have got Robin, or Nightwing, but no, he brought in Batgirl specifically just for Zeiss.
Saying all that tho I can see why you dont agree that Zeiss is a Top 10er as he doesnt have the feats nor history. Zeiss is impressive to me because he has prepped specifically in regards to Batmans skill and has bonafide superhuman reflexes/speed, and in turn so does Batman.
MASTER HAIM:
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He is not an officially ranked Top 10 since we haven't seen Haim appear outside this story arc but it doesn't change the fact that the feats we saw from Master Haim prove that he's an MA easily on the same level as Batman and even mastered a death strike technique that only 7 people in the world knew how to use or even had knowledge of how to defend against.
I thought all Post-Crisis showings were allowed since we don't have enough Post-Flashpoint showings from Batman to draw on yet. Besides most of Batmans Pre-Crisis showings are still valid as his continuity wasnt changed much. In fact, the only thing that was changed was Batman being a student of Richard Dragon.
Has Yukio fought an A-list martial artist like Batman to a stalemate or displayed his high level of knowledge and technique/skill (probably not)? Haim easily killed two of the best MAs at the time including easily beating Green Arrow with 1 touch of his finger.
SENSEI:
While Sensei's stamina was a factor it should be noted that Bruce did not win because he outlasted him as The Sensei was clearly still fighting all the way to the end.
Bruce didn't defeat The Sensei in hth combat but he did however outsmart The Sensei proving that his mind is his most dangerous weapon. And he did so while blind, having his arm broken and impaled thru the gut. It shows how resourceful Batman is against a blatantly more skilled opponent.
Blocking and dodging a few moves isn't what I would call a real stalemate or getting the better of Stick as you put it (I don't even know how you came to this conclusion) but is it a good showing of Logan's skill since he wasn't beaten and held his own. Plus, Stick's purpose for being there and attacking Logan wasn't to defeat him but rather help him out similar to what Elektra was doing with Logan just prior to this showing a few issues back (IIRC). If anyone was holding back it was actually Stick.
The Sensei in comparison has centuries of combat experience and was actually out for the kill against Batman yet still failed whereas Stick was clearly holding back and attempting to help Logan out.
Now since Stick has even skill with The Sensei as you have compared them, if Batman switched places with Wolverine, and Stick was going for the kill, its very possible Batman could have outsmarted Stick the same way he did The Sensei and thrown him into the fire.
How impressive would that be iyo?
AZREAL:
Azreal has nearly 50 issues under his belt as Batman, a multipart crossover dedicated to him in which Bruce had to train with Shiva and defeat the Masters of 7 different ninja clans of the worlds best MA's just for him to be good enough to come back and defeat Azreal. And Azreal has another 100 issue solo series after that filled with blatant superhuman speed and strength showings.
I do agree that Az isn't top 10 in MA skill but would be considered to be a peer of the top 10 fighters in general due to his super human stats and his battle computer like fighting program- The System.
In the future, his skills are said to be fabled on the ground according to Karate Kid who's the greatest MA in the universe at the time which can seen at the beginning of their brave and the bold fight. Which i will post in a bit.
BANE:
Bane has defeated a pre-Rip Nightwing (who is defintely top 10) in hth combat, easily overpowered Catman, defeated Azrael, has managed to give Batman 2 tough fights (he's never beaten Bruce fairly though), and has taken out the meta human brothers Thunder and Lightning (who have given the Teen Titans a hard time) despite taking a lightning blast to boot.
lol. You are right it was Kirk Depaul. Kirk was trianed by Asano Nitobe (an old master of the DCU on par with Sensei, O'Sensei, and Master Kirigi). Manhunter was formidable enough to get the upper hand on Nightwing who fled their battle before there was a finish with DePaul looking as the superior combatant despite NW using gas with no effect due to DePaul's healing factor.
Anyway i thought id bring him up as he has superhuman stats and a healing factor, and Batman did easily defeat him.
__________________ Batman officially defeats Wolverine.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f105/t562753.html
Bruce stalemated Karate Kid (Post-Crisis Waid version) in a anti-gravity martial arts battle having to adapt on the fly (literally not being experienced in such combat as noted by KK himself) since he was ambushed by Karate Kid to begin with in mid air. The fight itself was a page long not a few panels short with them both landing attacks and countering each other's attacks which proves they were evenly matched before their fight was broken up. This is the same Karate Kid who was capable of going 1 on 1 with Ultra Boy and took out Micro Lad using just skill. http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/...dkaratekid1.jpg http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/...dkaratekid2.jpg http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/...dkaratekid3.jpg
Regarding Pre-Crisis Karate Kid's "medical issue", the virus hadn't fully spread throughout his system plus he didn't show any signs of being weakened until much later on in the Countdown series. Matter of fact, in the same issue we see him get pumped full of drugs that were "strong enough to slow down Wonder Woman" and he's still able to talk which amazed the leaguers. In the same story arc, we see Val prove fast enough to even duck a lightning bolt which tells us the virus definitely had no affect on his preformance. Even more impressive, later on in Countdown we see him trash Equus who's powerful enough and specially designed to battle Superman himself despite being infected by the virus.
As far as the fight goes, we saw Batman draw blood against pre-crisis Karate Kid by landing 2 powerful punches (something that even a super powerful being like Equus couldn't do when they 1st fought), skillfully block his sneak attack after Val had just taken out Black Lightning with 1 blow, plus withstand every attack Karate Kid used against him and still wasn't defeated despite what should be a HUGE gap in skill between the two. Yet, according to Clark it wasn't that big of difference with Bruce being being rated a 12 and Karate Kid a 15 in combat ability.
How many super elite MAs like Karate Kid (either one) has Logan at least stalemated with PURE skill like Batman has?
DEATHSTROKE:
Deathstroke is definitely top 10 he's just not top 5. If Slade wasn't a top 10 level MA he wouldn't be able to defeat fighters like Batman or Nightwing despite his physical advantages as they've beaten super humans in hth combat numerous times before. It's Slade's physical stats combined with his skill/combat training plus his ruthlessness that give him an advantage over top tier fighters like Batman in hth combat.
Slade has MA training under Natas who's the same MA master that Green Arrow trained under.
True that Slade does have a winning record against Batman in hth combat (2-1 in Slade's favor) and I admit I was incorrect about his record against Slade as you pointed out, but you are definitely leaving a lot of the details out:
You won't be able to name even one street level fighter that has done the huge amount of damage to Deathstroke that Batman did in the fight you used above. In that fight, Bruce just using his hth skill seriously hurt Deathstroke despite Slade having a healing factor and pointing out that it would take days to heal up from the wounds Batman inflicted on him in their battle. The damage done to Slade was so bad that right afterwards he couldn't even properly defend himself against a man with his hands tied up and was almost killed had he not been saved.
Batman actually wrestled Slade to the ground the last time they fought, dominated him, and then KOed him before he could even use his sword.
Outside of using Slade's rifle like a baseball bat to KO him, Batman has NEVER used his own weaponry/gadgets to take him out fairly and has still proven capable of besting Slade in melee combat as shown in the last real 1 on 1 battle. Meanwhile, Batman actually has managed to disarm Slade of his weaponry just about everytime they're fought although he's never chosen to use any of his own.
Batman has KOed Slade with a surprise attack via a kick despite his super human stats which proves how hard he hits and something no other street level combatant or many people in general meta human or otherwise have achieved against Slade.
OWL MAN:
True most of the fight was off panel and Owlman is not Top 10 on DC proper earth, he is however at the very top strategic mind in his own universe and is also the strategic leader of the Injustice Gang and has been shown to be near equal to Batman in tactical battle planning.
At the very least we can say that Batman matched someone as tactical and strategic as him, as Owlman is still above Wolverine in the combat strategy dept.
IRON FIST:
Black Widow, Storm, and Bishop have gotten the better of Logan in sparring contests (or stalemated him) that doesn't make them more skilled or better fighters then him. Also, I'm not convinced that Danny was out to prove himself as much as Logan was in that sparring contest still Logan did win fairly.
Even so, Bruce has bested Cassandra Cain in a pure skill showing with higher stakes involved and gotten the better of her when they fought one other time. We've seen Danny best Logan before in hth combat when the X-Men attacked him in his own series. However, I will acknowledge that Logan's skill level wasn't fully established yet but still it shouldn't be overlooked since Logan doesn't normally use his hth skill as much as other A-lister MAs do anyway (even so, Batman is still a superior MA).
In addition, Logan's mutant abilities and his adamantium give him an unfair advantage out the gate against all non-enhanced fighters which makes it hard to gauge what's truly skill on his part most times.
Overall imo Iron Fist is the more skilled of the two considering he fought evenly with the Gorgon recently while Wolverine has been handled by the Gorgon at least twice. Iron Fists showing against Mr X proves this as well.
CAPTAIN AMERICA:
Captain America was actually winning their fight in Origins and was even overpowering Logan on the ground (crushing the tendons in Logan's forearms so his claw wouldn't work) until Logan cleverly used a move to incapacitate Cap and win. Even looking at the 2nd fight they had in the next Origins issue we see Cap dominating their battle again until the pain in Cap's leg gets the better of him.
Wolverine was not engaged in a gauntlet of enemies back to back like Batman was when he fought Lady Shiva in Superman Batman and had plenty of time in between if you read the story arc. As far as Nuke goes, he was actually beaten pretty quickly with Logan suffering not much damage at all before Cap showed up. Given Logan's healing factor and how short that battle with Nuke lasted I doubt it had any effect on Logan's performance against Cap otherwise Logan would've said so.
While I agree that their first fight was more of a sparring match it was still a contest of fighting ability in which Logan lost because he was fighting like a brawler instead of a focused martial artist (which is how he beat Sabretooth). This fight only goes to show that Logan fighting in his usual furious brawler style wouldn't work against a A-list MA like Batman and that someone as smart as Bruce using the environment to his advantage can definitely gain the upper hand.
You missed the part where Logan points out how he has enhanced senses and a healing factor to boot. And his healing factor was at the highest it could be at the time as the admantium was not constantly poisoning his body as you have pointed out. http://imageshack.us/f/28/wolverineupgrade.jpg/
Unfortunatley this no longer matters now that the admantium is back and thus poisoning his immune system returning his healing factor to standard levels(altho it has improved since the old days).
Being such an avid Wolverine fan I am surprised you did not know this.
__________________ Batman officially defeats Wolverine.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f105/t562753.html
Anyway, regarding the last Shang Chi fight, I'd hardly call that being more skilled if we're judging things fairly. He's a better hth combatant most definitely due to obvious superior physical stats and mutant abilities on top of being highly skilled himself (which Shang points out) but a better overall MA then Shang? I'm not convinced of that at all. I'd say Batman defeating Shiva was just as impressive given the fact that Bruce had a disadvantage going into that fight which was unexpected. And Batman doesnt have enhanced senses or a healing factor that was skyrocketing at the time.
Besides you are missing some context with Armored DD. He was suffering from a breakdown at the time and was reckless and arguably not as fast as traditional DD
Plus, if you look at that one showing against Daredevil as a legit win (despite Matt not being really beaten imo) then you would equally have to look at the time Black Panther (who wasn't really even interested in fighting) easily tossed Logan aside before he could react as a win as well, although there was no clear finish: http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/...vswolverine.jpg
In the Enemy of the State fight Wolverine was indeed missing part of his soul(I have no idea how that would affect him physically btw as is was primarily a state of mind change), but he also had like 20 hand ninjas with him which should more than make up for any disadvantages Wolverine had. Logan was even dodging billy clubs and got in a couple hits against DD.
As for the Ennis fight with Daredevil, Ennis stated he hates em all, that proves there is no bias there. Besides, the neck chop from Daredevil isn't as PIS as you would hope.
Notice it takes him an hour to heal from the thraot rip which would be consistent with modern Wolverine being stunned by DD's neck chop for a min or so.
Notice how Punisher was able to use explosives and equipment several times to get the advantage. He was also able to ambush Wolverine twice despite the fact that he was only a few feet away from him, which totally blows your point away that Wolverine couldn't detect him from 30 feet away in the Ennis story. Not only that, but the Ennis story is directly mentioned in the very beginning making it even more canon.
Thanks for pointing out this fight to me as I was not aware of it. It proves that Wolverine can indeed defeat Frank, after an extended fight that began with a sequence of sucker shots in Wolverines favor.
DAKEN:
You do make a good point about Wolverine holding back on Daken due to him being his gay son. So if Daken vs Wolverine showings are invalid we can easily compare Daken to Punisher and also to Wolverine as they all have dead even records as you have pointed out.
Crossbones prolly pulled this off because he's pretty skilled with a gun himself. Wolverine did come back and win the fight btw then got incinerated by some devil dude lol.
While its true Daken came back and defeated Frank a short time later, it should be noted that Frank started the first fight with a hole in his calf and in their second fight Frank was was injured from stab wounds to his chest as well as the leg injury. Not to mention he could have survived if SHEILD wasn't waiting for him surrounding the area and preventing his escape. If Punisher can do this good against Daken and Wolverine, Batman should be leagues more formidable.
This was a very good showing for Frank as Daken was going for the kill even if Wolverine may not have been technically going for the kill but was still trying to win in their fight you refrenced.
__________________ Batman officially defeats Wolverine.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f105/t562753.html
Last edited by Letters on Apr 13th, 2012 at 10:58 AM
Notice how Wolvie was arrogant enough to rely on his healing factor and this was after he already lost their first fight showing that Wolvie doesnt display his skill even when he should.
Notice how Gambit used an explosive playing card as a smoke bomb to gain the advantage. Batman could easily do that with a smoke bomb. Notice how a skillfull throw of low level explosives KO's Wolverine as this is the end of the fight, altho it was a sucker shot as Wolverine had his back turned. Wolverine may have 2 wins on Gambit but Batman is far more skilled and tactically smarter so it would go differently:
Now it should be noted that Gambits powers were on the fritz, however that would be the perfect excuse to display his skills since his powers weren't reliable but he is not as good as Bullseye as he admits in the end.
While Bullseye was hit by Robin, he was also catching Batmans Batarang with his eyes closed and I doubt a single hit from Robin would have any great affect on Bullseye anyway. As we can see there is a clear skill difference here with someone that is evenish with Wolverine (Gambit) and someone above Gambits level (Batman).
MR X:
1. The purpose for X's army was to see if Logan was worthy to fight since X heard Logan was the best and he has an obsession with wanting to beat the best. If he wanted to fight a weakened Logan he would've simply attacked Logan right after his army of assassins was defeated.
2. Logan had time to change his clothes and had to time to heal on his way to X's location (Logan walked btw) who gave him an open invitation to his place and even scheduled for them to fight one another 1 on 1 with Logan actually arriving early while X was actually expecting him a little later. If anything that actually tells us that X wanted to be sure that they were both at their best since X wanted to fight later on and not that early.
3. If Logan was weakened like you say where is it mentioned that he was? No where before, during, or after their battle does Logan mention being weakened due to previous battle wounds not being healed up so you are clearly making things up.
Logan's had to go berserk to defeat X since X's telepathy can't anticipate his moves while in that state. You are ignoring the fact that Logan was badly losing in their 3rd cage fight in which X dominated Logan and easily countered his every move until Logan went berserk.
The last fight had X dominating Logan again until Logan decided the best way to "defeat" X was to not fight him at all since Logan knew that X had a counter for his berserker rage and it wouldn't work.
That sure didnt help him against Iron Fists Drunken Fist. Again a clear skill difference.
He lost the rematch when Logan used his berserker rage.
PSYLOCK:
Wolverine had a very good fight with Psylock in her mini. At the end of the fight when Psylock gave up Wolverine was on his knees and looked in severe pain indicating Betsy may have had a slight advantage. He did get up ready to fight some more after that but a momentary advantage may be all that Batman needs. Wolverine looked good in that fight despite outside interference and everything. Other times he hasn't fared too well.
Logan has lost to Psylocke twice while she was mind controlled. While both wins were due to her psiblade it still proves she is more skilled than Logan as he should have been able to dodge it, and honestly he could win just as easily with his claws if he was skilled enough.(And since Betsy was mind controlled she was less skilled right Dum Dum?)
Wolverine and Deadpool have had several extensive fights. Most of the time one or the other is holding back or Deadpool goes literally insane, gets DP vison and starts tripping out, or DP has prep and defeats Wolverine with Tranquilizers. Anyway they have a fairly even record but this is their most straight up fight with none of the other factors i mentioned involved.
Batman could easily duplicate that with a couple of well placed Batarangs. DP even mentions how easy it was to sucker Wolvie. DP also mentions his HF working, however Batman has taken worse shots and kept fighting. This was Bone Claw Wolverine when his HF was skyrocketing making it that much more impressive.
Punisher also has a very respectable showing against Deadpool in DP issues 54 and 55, while there were many factors involved in their city wide romp Punisher outperformed Deadpool at least twice and came out on top in the end.
X-23:
So it seems they are pretty even as one fight Logan didnt fight at all it seems (altho he was incapacitated by a stab wound)when another time he looked superior.
Its true he was holding back at first, however, Logan did pop his claws on the 3rd page and inidicated he was getting serious. During this time of the fight he was completely outskilled while X23 nullified his HF and she didn't get hit once. Batman with his master deductive ability and having the greatest tactical mind in the world will prolly be able to think of X23's clever plan.
NO-NAME SPECIAL OPS GUY:
First of all the cancer bullets you mentioned weren't a factor in that fight. It was straight up h2h and claw to claw.
As you have proven very well this guy had laser claws admantium skeleton and a healing factor to match Wolverine. They have nearly identical powersets. This is the perfect scope in which to gauge Wolvies skill. No-Name couldn't have been any more skilled than Punisher. Both him and Wolverine took several "mortal" wounds throughout the fight. If Wolverine was so skilled against a character he was clearly trying to kill he would have been blocking and dodging more than the No-namer and taxing the No-Name's HF. Instead Wolvie barely defeated No-Name before he collapsed a few seconds later showing they were near equals in skill.
I think Punisher vs No-namer would be a great fight considering how well he has done against the healing factor crew, especially since Frank is even with Daken when he was going for the kill
FEAST:
Yes it does look like Feast is going for a beatdown. I thought he had claws but i guess the blood just tricked me.
1. Feast obviously states that he's immortal at the beginning of the fight and is seen withstanding a surprise explosive from Batman (who had no problem going all out from the start of the battle) with little effect.
2. Feast is shown skilled enough to gain the upper hand on Batman but makes the mistake of not paying attention to what Bruce was setting him up for the entire time.
3. Feast is clearly shown regenerating his body at the end of their fight when Batman blew him apart as we see Bruce torturing info out of him with a mere pen and preventing him from healing up properly. After Batman is done we can see Feasts' body mostly recovered/regrown but he's still in pain laying on the ground beaten. Last I checked, damage soak does NOT do this neither would Batman be willing to use such lethal attacks/weaponry if he thought it would actually kill him.
I'm not seeing how you could deny Feasts' healing factor at work as its clear as day.
The first example was Batmans cloth costume that wasn't even bulletproof at the time. Hell, I don't think Batmans current costume is knife proof as he has been stabbed in his current costume.
These show that Batman can take calculated risks in battle by blocking weapons with his body and setting up his opponent ftw. Much like Deadpool has done.