Murder rates in America, in general, are 3 times Canada's (1.62 v 4.8 per 100000 people), and gun related homicides are .76 v 4.14, or more than 5 times Canada's.
I think assault rates are closer, as I remember stats a few years ago that suggested that, but hmmm.
the change from a 300% to 500% is indication of guns causing more gun violence, though admittedly it isn't as strong as if the rates were closer.
in terms of suicide rates, Canada and America are very close (us: 11.8; Canada: 11.3; per 100000), however, suicide with firearms are nowhere near, as America has almost twice as many gun suicides (5.71 v 3.72).
In fact, a nation like Switzerland has less gun related homicide than Canada, but a gun-suicide rate closer to America, largely thought to be a result of the availability of guns (Switzerland has an overall suicide rate of 18, per 100000).
This shows the general effect, though not directly related to gun crime
__________________ yes, a million times yes
Last edited by tsilamini on Jun 1st, 2012 at 06:48 PM
you actually hear about stabbings and stabbing deaths very frequently in the paper here, though it is actually hard to find knife related statistics
I'd additionally point out, there is no equivalent force to the NRA related to knives, nor a cultural fetish with them in any Western culture, that I know of.
Gender: Male Location: Southern Oregon,
Looking at you.
^ To be honest, I don't believe that guns are killing people. I suspect it is people using guns to kill people. These people are more likely to be criminals, and therefore not obey gun laws in the first place. There is one other group; idiots with guns, but they usually kill themselves, so they are self correcting.
well, sure, but the question was, do more guns lead to more gun crime, which, save a full scale empirical test, the evidence does seem to bare out.
actually, another interesting one, 68% of homicides in america are committed by firearm, versus 30% in canada. in canada, knives also account for 30% of homicides.
a better question might be, how does Switzerland, a nations with ~50 guns per 100 people, have a murder rate closer to Canada, which has ~30, than America, which has more than 80? If there were a direct relationship between gun availability and crime, the Swiss should be closer to a mid point between the US and Canada. however, suicide rates are actually much higher than would be expected in Switzerland (going off of just gun availability, nations in sort of Northern Europe have very high suicide rates normally).
However, using just Canada and America as examples, it is really hard to see the differences as reflecting no success of gun control.
fair enough, I don't know how this varies from state to state, however, my complaint here seems to be about things that people tend to agree are legal in Florida at least.
So, for instance, I'm suggesting that Zimmerman shouldn't have been allowed to just walk around with a gun with the same amount of liability for his actions as if he were unarmed, nor do I think the standard required to shoot someone dead is nearly high enough. Another story seems to encapsulate this last point:
like, this sort of shows that this isn't a matter of some uncertainty in the Treyvon case. American laws seem to highly favor the shooter, to the point that they don't even have to make a self defense case in court, even when there is no argument that the shooter ever even thought they were in mortal danger.
The autopsy puts Treyvon in at 5'11" and 158 lbs. Zimmerman is put at 5'7" and 200 lbs on Feb 26th (the time of the shooting) and at 5'8" 185 lbs in April.
Even going by the April weigh in (which is silly, but hey, w/e), Zimmerman has a 25-30 pound advantage and is at an 4" height disadvantage (so small one would need to be a professional boxer to exploit it).
but even going beyond that, you can take "way larger" out of my statement, and it is still valid.
but you are wrong anyways, at the time of the murder, Zimmerman had close to a 45 pound weight advantage on Treyvon.
y-you actually just tried to give logical credit to the idea that Martin might have assaulted Zimmerman had he never been followed?
really?
and you want to be taken seriously?
[and, actually, by Zimmerman's own account of the events, we know he didn't follow the dispatcher's instructions...]
what a victim Zimmerman is
you are a brave soul, standing up for a man who murdered an unarmed civilian who wasn't breaking any laws. Someone will find this thread some day, and they will name a medal of bravery for you.
Most people suspect Zimmerman is in the wrong because most people are not incapable of following fairly clear evidence.
Like, you realize the defense of Zimmerman rests on the interpretation of a law many people don't feel is right in the first place (and which a presiding judge said turned Florida into something like the wild west). Sure, you might be right, Zimmerman might be legally protected by a terrible law. congrats! you came out in the right on this one! woo hoo!
not really, like I've said, he might actually be innocent given Florida laws. if that is the case, I can hardly argue for his guilt.
maybe I've been unclear, my big issue is that Florida laws appear to promote these type of "self-defense" shootings and are thus problematic. I'd actually take Zimmerman being found innocent as proof of that point.
if I thought a street protest in Winnipeg, Manitoba would change Florida gun policy I might participate.
Everyone point and laugh at the old man that still reads the paper.
What do you mean, here? Rednecks are just as apesh*t over their knives as their guns. In fact, I bet you that you will find a pocket knife on a redneck more often than a gun.
and that weight advantage did what for Zimmerman exactly?
so youre just gonna pick and choose what part of Zimmermans story is true and which part isnt? my argument was WE DONT KNOW WHAT REALLY HAPPENED meaning IT COULD HAVE WENT DOWN ANY POSSIBLE WAY so yeah im looking at this from many different angles and possibilities sorry you cant keep an open mind and do the same
if someone asks someone else a question and gets his a$$ beat for it he is not a victim in any way? and you have the nerve to sit here and preach about gun control and stopping violence and crap like that? way to be a hypocrite buddy
all im saying is anything could have happened and if what Zimmerman is saying (he asked what Martin was doing here and got attacked) is indeed the truth then yes he was the victim and did act in self defense.
if not then not but quit acting like your some kind of authority on how America should be run just cuz you dont like something.
unless you are trying to say: "Because Zimmerman was a poor fighter, he is allowed to murder Martin", this is irrelevant.
you made a long post about how Zimmerman wasn't larger than Treyvon, which turned out to be incorrect, as I showed. Unless you have better data (my numbers come from the police), I am correct and my characterization of Zimmerman as "way larger" is appropriate (a 45 pound advantage is considerable)
so, in your mind, anything we can't say without question didn't happen must be considered a possible option.
very well, I will introduce the "George Zimmerman was possessed by Satan" defense. We don't know what happened, so we don't know he wasn't possessed by Satan, so have and open mind!!!!
NOW i TYPE A FULL SENTENCE IN CAPS BECAUSE I AM THE CORRECT!!!!!!
thats not actually what hypocrite means
I would have to be defending violence in some way... though I'm glad you are so willing to demonstrate you aren't really even reading my points
well, sure, but now we are talking about what a decent standard is for shooting someone. You have said "being punched twice" justifies murdering someone, we clearly disagree on this.
how about this, if it is so obvious to you that Zimmerman was defending himself, explain how Zimmerman was in mortal danger? I know, I know, stand your ground and all that, but try to justify it in a way that doesn't rely on a law that a judge who presided over a stand your ground case said turned Florida into the wild west.
oh, no, don't get me confused at all
I'm not interested in telling America how it should be run. I'm happy to see it run itself into the ground. I'm acting as more of an authority about how any nation should be run if they don't want people shot in their streets.
You seem to have a pro-street shooting platform, so it is obvious why we wouldn't agree here
Despite my position on this particular topic (pretty much not one), I still find amusement from the fact that Zimmerman got his ass kicked. That's exactly what should happen to "tough guys."
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Jun 1st, 2012 03:45 PM
