It also states that Kenobi had Dooku stepping back desperately.
I wouldn't give that book any credit at all, honestly.
That being said, obviously Yoda is his superior. I mean for Christ's sake, Dooku couldn't beat Yoda even when they were fighting on a dark side nexus (Vjun) and Yoda was dueling with one hand trying to simultaneously keep an old woman from falling to her death with the force.
So rich and white it's like I'm runnin gainst a cheeeeesecaaaaake
I think Obi-Wan is the best swordsman he proves it by beating Maul (though he was very lucky), Grievous and Anakin in the movies and he is only ever beaten with the Force by Revenge of the Sith. Maul is arguably better though, but Dooku and Anakin both got beat, as did Palpatine, and Mace is way too slow to be among the best. Maybe Yoda but he was unable to deal with Dooku quite like Anakin did and for all his speed lacked affinity with Makashi and defence against thrust attacks.
But surely you must agree mastering different saber/combat arts and combining them is lethal. Example In the Last CW episode: [SPOILER - highlight to read]: Neither Maul nor Obi-Wan were getting the advantage in pure sabers, but Maul's other combat skills (his kicks) were giving him the decisive edge.
Id say Not as much for those 2 because Mace's style is so unpredictable itself, and classed as "the deadliest".
And Yoda himself so small in size, but so fast and with mastery over every form, would be a nightmare for anyone really.
But I think Dooku's pure fencing form (which is designed specifically for sword to sword fighting and the best for that specifically) would not fight at it's optimum ability against complete mastery of a Saber Staff and Physical combat arts.
I do however see Dooku taking the all out against Maul via his force tk. [SPOILER - highlight to read]: although this could be proven wrong if we see more from Maul's Force abilities in CW Series.
Im not a particular fan of Mace, but him, Yoda and Sidious do just seem to be faster and more powerful than everyone else in the PT.
But if you can prove that wrong Im open to changing my views
Still having Sidious call Maul's skills as a warrior unpareil(Shadow Hunter) and having Sidious telling Maul his Skills as a Master Swordsman are peerless (Darth Maul: Saboteur) are high praises indeed considering how amazing Sidious's sword skills were.
Not to mention Maul proved himself a "Superior fighter" to Anoon Bondara whose skills with a Saber were second to none in a time period where we still had Yoda, even if Mace and the others were not yet in their prime.
Seriously I have a new found respect for Maul and see him as a PT Kas'im type.
I don't need to prove it have you seen the movies? Maul attacks with two blades as if they were one and does spins and acrobatics, Mace Windu was one of the slowest Jedis in the movies and Sidious was also slow, isntead focusing on the dark side and the senate.
Not really. Whichever style you use, you first learn how it works. Then you put it into practice. On practice you do random sequences of strikes trying to follow logic of your style. At the same time you learn to defend against spar mate's random strikes. In the end which ever styles you both were masters at is irrelevant since you both have learned to defend from whatever you execute against each other.
Trust me, sword fight is far simpler, than those silly Star Wars encyclopedias and Wookieepedia are trying to make out of it.
It is called pure fencing form simply because it is harder to deflect blaster bolts with one hand, that's all. Form's inability against "Saber Staff" is only your assumption. "Physical combat arts" have nothing to do with lightsaber forms, you can chop a leg off with any style and you can kick/grab a practitioner of any style.
Yes, they do seem to be faster and more powerful but speed can't be compared and power is not determining factor as Sidious was more powerful than both Yoda and Windu, yet, couldn't win.
Combining the best of different combat arts is lethal. Take mixed martial arts for instance. It takes the best from different combat forms, grappling, boxing and thai boxing.
The Best Thai boxer is never a match for any of the top Mixed martial artists. Will he have better kicks and punches? Sure. That's what he's best at. But in an all out the mixed martial artist takes it every time.
No Im not saying Dooku is useless against blasters, droids or any unorthodox situation. He's taken on multiple opponents more than once (which his form is not designed for), and he's trained and knowledgeable in all forms.
But his greatest mastery is of a form which is only designed for fencing. And that's what he uses while fencing. So Im not saying he would be useless against a Saber Staff or that he can't take a kick.
But when he's up against someone who has mastered the deadliest form, and mastered the saber staff, and mastered close combat, those things will all give him an edge over Dooku's mastery of pure fencing form.
But Dooku has his advantages as well. He's more powerful in the force, is extremely talented at simultaneous saber and force attacks.
I would give the edge to Count Dooku in the all out. Just saying in pure Sabers and close combat I would give Maul the edge. His Combat skills are peerless and he's physically a beast.
Well yes I agree Sidious was more powerful. But he was not exactly combat hardened at the point when he fought them. I believe his fight with Mace Windu was the first time he touched his Lightsaber in over 10 years!
As for speed. We have passages from the ROTS novel and Shatterpoint which confirms how fast Sidious and Mace are. Characters like Dooku and Maul (though very fast themselves) do not have the speed descriptions/feats of those 2 powerhouses.
Last edited by DARTH POWER on Apr 16th, 2012 at 10:30 AM
MMA and generally unarmed combat is much more complecated, than sword fighting. It is true that boxer would loose to kick boxer and kick boxer would loose to grappling on the floor and similar examples. But sword fighting whatever style is essentially the same type of skill. It's like comparing two boxers trained under different school. it's all about swinging sword at different angle. Myself I trained in two Katana styles, different logic and moves but essentially it is all about swinging sword in random direction and countering attacks with blocks, redirections and counters.
Moreover, I went to watch Kendo session. Surprisingly I found that it is the same thing, the only difference is that in Kendo's logic is "Sacrifice your finger, arm or leg but finish of your opponent", while I was thought surviving aspect. In other words, if I am put against any other Katana wielder, it wouldn't make any difference, will win the one with better skill. There would be difficulties against musketeer as their sword is much lighter or spear as it is very different weapon but any Katana sword fighter with any style would have the same difficulties.
You approach it like form VII is better, than form II, which I can't agree with. Close combat is a separate art, it can be incorporated with any form, even if it is "pure fencing form". In other words any other Jedi would have difficulty against saber staff and kicks. In Yoda's case he is too small to kick or grab him but Windu would have exactly same difficulties against Maul but as you said he is powerhouse, so he is more likely to overcome it.
I, also, give him the edge but not in a way that Dooku's specific style sucks against "deadliest form", saber staff and close combat.
It is still indirect comparison. Maul simultaneously defended against both Kenobi and Qui-Gon attacking from opposite sides. It is, also, a great speed feat and much more realistic, than beautiful description of one or another author. And Qui-Gon was Windu's equal at that time. Of course Windu got improved but to what extend? We can only assume how much faster he became since, maybe the difference is very small, maybe there is almost no difference.
No that's not what I was implying. Form II is a better fencing style than Form VII. Whilst form VII is overall the most demanding and unpredictable form.
They all have their advantages and disads. I just think someone with Mace's physical strength and wielding Vapaad would handle Maul better than Dooku would.
On the other hand I see Makashi's elegance and efficiency backed by the skill in the force that Dooku has, most likely handling someone like Obi-Wan much more easily than Mace would.
Although I do overall see Mace as a more powerful swordsman than Count Dooku.
Of course the counter argument could be that Mace handled Sidious whose speed took out 3 Jedi Masters(Council memebers as well) in just a few seconds. I know that was a crap scene. Nevertheless it happened.
Last edited by DARTH POWER on Apr 16th, 2012 at 03:25 PM
My point is that there is no better style. Makashi is indeed fully dedicated to duel fencing but it doesn't put it above other forms. It is like saying samurai style is better, than kingdom knight style, when in reality the one with better skill and capabilities wins. Moreover, both Dooku and Windu are masters of sword fight on top of their skill with knowledge of multiple forms. Saying that one form is better/more suitable, than other ruins the whole aspect of talent, capabilities and versatility.
It is the most demanding because the whole aspect of it is about emotional state but emotional state is important in any real combat. And unpredictability is determined not by style but by wielder. Fair enough that form VII practitioners are taught how to move unpredictably but again in real combat even form I practitioner will move as unpredictably as any other style, if he wants to win. The whole my point is that whatever style you learn, towards real combat you try to be as efficient as possible and at the end style matters no more as you know how to counter all other styles in its most effective way. In MMA even with very different background top competitions are still showing more or less equal fight.
He would but I don't put credit in style specifically. And Windu would still experience same problems encountering unorthodox saber staff and unarmed combat.
Dooku definitely can hand Obi-Wan much easier because of his offensive Force use. But imho pure lightsaber fight would be more or less equal. In AotC Kenobi learned his lesson and clearly after started dedicating more time to lightsaber combat. Sad in CW Dooku was fighting only Anakin. And generally Obi-Wan is shown to have impenetrable saber defense but keeps failing to kicks and offensive Force attacks .
For blaster fire it is never problem to switch to double grip and Dooku seemed to handle Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously quite well in RotS.
Agree, they have advantages as well as disadvantages against each other. But does it make one form ultimately better, than other in duel?
As you can see, when it comes to fight between experienced masters I don't give more wight to one or another form, I even created topic, where I describe farther reasons and my skepticism.
Kit Fisto was master of Form I and was still described as one of the best sword fighters and demonstrated it against Grivous. Yes, he failed miserably against Sidious but can we blame the form for that?
In your opinion Dooku lost to Anakin because his style wasn't suitable against form V or because Anakin became better fighter?
Lol! Lets now work on every small detail and unreality of actor's choreography! Watched that fragment and now I am confused why instead of cutting Dooku down he simply switched lightsaber off
If seriously, I believe Kenobi by RotS to be better sword fighter as he put up much better and more impressive fight against Anakin. Anyway. We have different believes and logic behind them. Just saying as we are coming back to very old subject we discussed long ago, I'm trying to avoid repeating things.
The fanny thing is that Qui-Gon's form was Ataru, yet, in film it indeed looks like V as he constantly was giving powerful strikes instead of focusing on agility. I guess at that point forms weren't invented yet.
And, yes, Dooku is better and more versatile fighter, I was referring strictly to lightsaber combat.