Gender: Male Location: Ontario
but still reppin naija
It does not matter whether it was WWHs max or not as the step/stomp dichotomy that Pak uses, underscores the enormity of the strength gap and applies regardless Note judges that I am not at all asserting that collateral damage is the sole indicator of strength as i know that there are certain writers that dont make use of it as extensively.However it is undeniable that Pak made use of it in relation to the strength gap between WWH and WBH. To simply try to discard/ignore it as Newjack is attempting to do, displays a lack of the capability for objective analysis
csm]facepalm[/csm]. Its hilarious how you blanketly describe everything that decimates your position as "long winded". Judges this portion of his "reasoning" is straight up retarded. He suggests that Hulk saying that Wendigo is possibly his strongest opponent is invalid and should be ignored because Hulk was koed by Namor in a collision that rocked both of them on an entirely seperate occasion. This is supposed to be a counter argument? Hulk being koed under completely different circumstances against a completely different character and even a different writer does NOT invalidate other writers authoritative classification of Wendigos strength level ( in his fights with Hulk) as top notch. You arent even trying if you are trying to pass of such Non-sequitur reasoning as valid. As I have shown previously Wendigo has actually been able to match a Savage Hulk operating at quite a high level (high enough to no sell wolverines claws) in addition to holding his own against BOTH Professor Hulk and Genis Vell on another ocassion. Since the Wendigo is a wendigo that had fought Hulk before, he would logically be at the high level that he has been shown to operate at against Hulk. Newjack is transparently attempting to use WWHulks trouncing of Wendigo to denigrate Wendigo's strengthlevel instead of actually looking at his previous encounters with Hulk and accepting that the author deliberately used Wendigo to emphasize the strength increase. Thus he is once again allowing predispositions to cloud his perception of what is straightforward on panel evidence.
I placed emphasis on Armageddons trouncing of Merged Hulk not his beating of Surfer by manipulating his PC. The only relevance the Surfer incident has is to underscore the consumate ease with which Armageddon trounced merged Hulk since he was manipulating Surfers PC at the same time. Furthermore, you do no get to simply dismiss any evidence you dont like no matter how many time s you try which means that the merged Hulk comparison is particularly pertinent.. Again direct performance comparisons against common points of reference are an excellent way to go about judging a character powerlevel increase.. certainly much better than the ridiculous absolute highest outlier feat comparison u seem to want to engage in. Armageddon was using a "plot device" to attain what? Talk about more baseless empty posting. Armageddon DID NOT use a a plot device to casually subdue merged/Professor Hulk but did it easily with his own power (same applies to his manip of Surfers PC). In terms of general powerlevels this is extremely impressive and very telling seeing as Merged Hulk was definitely within Savage Hulks upper levels. WWH conversely was able to literally walk through much more powerful blasts from Armageddon (who was amped heavily by WBH energies)
Pak didnt just throw in cannon fodder to try and make the feat more impressive as if they were just cannon fodder it wouldnt have been impressive in the first place. He brought formidable and established Hulk villains and even amped them enormously in order to emphasize his point. Characters like Wendigo and Armcheddon especially have feats establishing themselves as top level Hulk opponents and in attempting to denigrate them with such laughable reasoning Newjack only further exposes his bias.
Now to deconstruct his ridiculous conclusion:
Newjack loves appealing to this imaginary sense of what "everyone knows or understands" in the hopes of masking his lack of substantive arguments. Easily stomping a hugely amped Wendigo and BI beast simultaneously as well as thunderclap koing a Rulk highly amped of WWH energies is NOT something that just any high Hulk would have previously been able to do. Still lets get to the other issue here: the HOTM feat
Your feigned attempts at objectivity succeed in fooling only yourself. Your mode of operation throughout this dicussion has been to ignore, misrepresent, and twist clear on panel occurrences as well as my arguments Now you claim you dont want to downplay the feat and yet you come up with even more nonsensical denigration attempts while further making a mockery of logic. Undoubtedly at the levels they are most regularly portrayed at, neither WWH,Mindless, or Savage Hulk would have been able to do that feat or come even close. Heck we saw WWH (the strongest previous Hulk version) actually FAIL to do anything remotely comparable right before Hulk went Worldbreaker so to suggest that he could have done so when it was the exact opposite that was shown on panel is senseless
Your agenda is transparent and has been from the beginning. This downplaying in the face of all reason is merely a roundabout way to maintain what you believe Thors status should be in relation to the Hulk. Its the same schtick used by those who constantly attempted to invalidate the amp that Odinforce Thor had by appealing to classic Thors outliers in order to maintain Thors status in relation to other herald levelers.
Unfortunately for you, the enormous gap between WBH and WWH exists just as much ( actually to a higher extent) between WBH and Thor and none of your mindless sorry excuses for arguments will change that. Thor has no quantifiable strength feat even within the same vicinity as what WBH did (lets not even start with the farcical silver age hyperbolic feats) and thats taking into account even the highest of his highs let alone consistent portrayals. Your ridiculously ambiguous references to "what Thor level strength characters can do" does not indicate anything because "Thor level strength" characters CANNOT do what WBH did or come even close. Performing even half of the total feat is several orders of magnitude more impressive than a mere "planetary level feat" (regular planet busting that is) for several reasons that I have already outlined.
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All thanks goes to starlock.
"Beware trolls, know me and know fear"
Gender: Male Location: Ontario
but still reppin naija
^That is what you call a breakdown? Every part of that feat was impressive. Even the "easiest" part of the feat (relative to the other parts of the feat of course): http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/...rmBIWendigo.jpg
literally not noticing simultaneous attacks from Armcheddon, Wendigo. and Bi Beast is hella impressive.
Additionally, Armcheddon going from being able to take multiple direct blows from WWH as well as his own amped blasts to the face before going down to getting vaporized as a side effect from the impact of the collision that happened in mid air, hundreds of metres away from him is an overt indicator of the strength increase as well as general strength level WBH was operating at at that point. The same applies to the similar evisceration of Wendigo, Bi Beast, and a hugely amped Fing Fang foom (who had just been amped to levels were he could take over earth). Thus your attempt to ignore the enormity of the feat itself and strength differential indicated by the destruction of these characters fails miserably just like a bulk of your other "arguments"
As for the mindless ones, its apparent that your only strategy in that case is once again to plead with the judges to ignore whats on panel. Even taking into account what was shown however Hulk is not a skyfather. Being skyfather level involves a lot more than just physical strength and thus despite the strength level Hulk was operating at, he would be outmatched against any skyfather particularly due to the limited nature of his powerset. Nonetheless that takes nothing away from his strength output and DOES not at all denigrate the fact that WBH and Betty DID do something from the residual shockwave of their collision which Umar (who would not have even survived) and Dormammu (who has had his power drained from even trying) have failed to do. There is nothing inconsistent about that position since it is the position that acknowledges writer intent and on panel depictions without superimposing pre-conceived notions onto the scene in an attempt to rationalize away or downgrade its impressiveness. The mindless ones were flat out stated as being at their upper levels (Umar couldnt defeat nor surive them) and at those upper levels (as well as most recent appearance) they have been shown to be an army of extremely formidable, nigh indestructible, neutron star working, Class 100 characters. You cant get around that. Your appeal to the inverse ninja law is entirely fatuous and representative of your ignorance of these characters since the ninja law refers to the weakening of characters when in groups. Conversely, the mindless ones have always been emphasized as being most powerful WHILE in groups. If looking for a set of characters with whom the law does NOT apply it is the mindless ones. Your appeal to it makes apparent your unadulterated desperation.
Smh,scratch my comment about the previous low light of this debate and replace it with this one. You have gotten so low that you are really attempting to take the fact that a skyfather level character shielded themselves from and then survived the shockwave from Hulk and Bettys collision as a reason why it is...wait for it....NOT impressive? What a slap in the face of all the reasonable people observing and juding this debate. "She didnt seem to care for the attack afterwards"? So you expected her to be trembling and bowing down to the Hulk in fear? You have to be freaking kidding me. The residual shockwave of the attack not harming a shielded skyfather level character DOES not and CANNOT at all denigrate its impressiveness. You cannot use this astoundingly maladroit observation to conclude that the other characters must have just been fodder in direct opposition to what was shown on panel and intended by the writer. Thats is a fallacious logical leap of gargantuan proportions The fact that Umar shielded herself at all only adds to the feat and takes nothing away and at this point your doing no more than make a fool of yourself.
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God of mercy, this is getting more idiotic as it moves along. This made up notion of "planetary level" attacks that you keep referencing is completely nonsensical. Does it mean you can destroy a planet by hitting it directly? destroy a planet as a residual effect? etc. he way in which the planet is destroyed is very important in determining power levels. In terms of physical attacks, a punch that can destroy a planet with one direct hit is epitomized by the fact that it can destroy a planet in one direct hit. Consequently if the punch needs to hit the planet once to destroy IT,it IS NOT at the level where it can destroy that same planet as a residual effect from hitting something else miles away. The physics of physical collisions DO NOT support your claim and neither does common sense. Hitting something directly and hitting something else a considerable distance away, ARE NOT the same because of the exponential dissipation rate of the energy in the shockwave and differing points of impact. Even at the micro level such as koing a person with a punch vs koing that same guy via punching someone else several feat away, the level of force involved diverges hugely. Even if two guys who could both ko me individually punched each other as hard as they could at the same time only a few feet away, I would be completely unaffected. This is absolutely indisputable and completely intuitive. Newjack is attempting to invoke the word "planetary" and claim that this intuitive as well as physically accurate distintinction somehow dissappears at the planetary level but NO such thing occurs and such a suggestion is a obvious case of "I dont like it" so "it didnt happen" reasoning. That he is attempting to make up his own physics while ignoring the intuitive as well as the established operation of physical impacts is nothing short of shameful and yes..atrocious. You do need to be several several orders of magnitude greater than traditional planet wrecking strength to do what Hulk and Betty did ( a thousands times may not even do it justice ) because the residual shockwave which actually,damaged a nearby moon, destroyed the planet, as well as all the characters on it was miles away from the epicentre of the physical collision and was acting upon the entire planet.Hence due to the huge area of outward radiation (the whole planet), distance involved, rapid energy dissipation rate of physical impact shockwaves and inverse square law, the shockwave that actually did the damage would be astronomically and exponentially less powerful (as it contained less energy) than the epicentre of that collision. To argue against it is to argue against physics and common sense as Newjack unfortunately has no problem doing
What you think is irrelevant as your posts indicate that it can be called into question whether you think at all. Neither of the characters you mentioned as they are consistently portrayed would be able to come close to performing that kind of feat. (the bulk of them dont have a feat EVER coming close to it) Most of those characters are comparable or even inferior to WWH and so them being 10X less strong is underselling it hugely. Planet destroying strength as it is generally conceived (posessed by most of the characters u mentioned) is far below what was displayed by WBH and Betty and your equivocation with the term "planetary" (which means nothing literally) is yet another poor debating strategy that exposes the weakness of your case
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All thanks goes to starlock.
"Beware trolls, know me and know fear"
Last edited by Naija boy on May 9th, 2012 at 05:37 PM
Gender: Male Location: Ontario
but still reppin naija
Generating half of the force displayed is astronomically beyond them at their consistent levels. The strength differential being discussed here is in orders of magnitiude and high exponentials so your paltry suggestions of 1/2 and 1/4 dont even begin to scratch the surface.
Rather than me blowing things out of proportion Newjack has demonstrated his aptitude for desperate downplaying and disregard for the actual content of the comics as long as he does not favor the character. As I have mentioned, my assessment of the strength gap between WBH and WWH is cumuative and takes into account character statements, feats, portrayal and authorial intent. The HOTM incident is certainly a big part of it though and I have thoroughly displayed how indicative it is of the enormous strength gap at play well as well as its overall impressiveness by meticulously analyzing the characters involved as well as the overall damage done. Both Armcheddon (who in addition to having blast power enough to effortlessly subdue merged Hulk, was also portrayed as being more formidable than his son Trauma that was physically giving Merged Hulk, a character with legit top tier class 100 strength, a run for his money) and Wendigo have feats showing themselves as top level Hulk villains and thus herald level beings. Bi beast on his part is firmly in the mid class 100 tier. Fing Fang Foom is a class 100 character normally, but in this case we know he was amped to become powerful enough to take over the earth considering the power of the wishing well, and its ability to amp Red she Hulk to match WBH, this amp must have thus been huge. http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/...mwasamped-1.jpg
The feats and portrayals of the mindless ones also speak for themselves (particularly because we know they were operating at their upper levels). Newjak has opted to literally ignore it all. Thats his perogative but there is obviously no flawed logic at work here save his suggestion that consistent portrayals and comparisons against common points of reference are inferior to isolated outliers when comparing character atrributes (like strength in this case).
The core dispute in this debate thus lies in whether consistent portrayals or isolated outliers are better representatives of a characters powerlevel and attributes. Newjak believes that it is the latter. I contend that it is the the former and have used it to make an exhaustive analysis taking into account character portrayal, statements, authorial intent, and actual on panel depiction. Despite Hulk dynamic strength any one who has actually read up on the character would be able to find a strength range which he regularly fell into. Heck, this is done virtually unconsciously any time that Savage Hulk/mindless hulk is placed in a versus battles on the forums as you dont see people arguing in favor of his infinite dimension busting strength The notion that Newjack is attempting to put forward in which Hulk is so unpredictably inconsistent that you cannot determine a range of strength that he falls into regularly is absolutely false, particularly because we know that a vast majority of Hulks villains fell between the mid-top tier strength range in the first place, and because of how Hulk dominated those villains below that range . If such a notion were true, it would mean that relative strength comparisons between Hulk incarnations would be impossible since each would be too unpredictable to even compare . We know it IS FALSE however, because strength comparisons among the different incarnations HAVE been made on panel (Grey Hulk vs Savage Hulk, by Abomination and others, WWH vs previous incarnations, by a multitude of characters) and thus the relative comparison i make here is entirely valid. Because of the Hulk incarnations equivalent strength potential , these comparisons exist on a sliding scale as any incarnation can keep getting stronger. Nonetheless, it is still possible to compare the upper ends of these incarnations consistent strength ranges and come to a conclusion regarding the differences in their usual relative strength levels . I have shown evidence for the range and typical levels that Savage Hulk as well as WWH operated at consistently and have compared them to the few but authoritative appearances of WBH. This comparison indisputably validated the 10x base strength difference that I posited in this thread.
Newjak comes into this with an unfortunate willingness to ignore direct performance comparisons against common reference points (Hulk villains in this case) but as ive displayed such comparisons serve as the most clear cut way for writers to pass across power level increases (i.e Odinforce Thor, Sundipped Supes etc). Furthermore, even without considering the relative performance comparisons, WBH feats are considerably beyond the consistent levels of WWH (the strongest version of Hulk prior to WBH) a typical upper end Savage Hulk, mindless Hulk and characters of that level. The evidence is thus damning to Newjacks case regardless of how it is approached.
As I mentioned in my opening salvo, the evidence for the gargantuan strength gap between WBH and previous Hulks is so overwhelming that any argument against it would have to discard either portrayal, authorial intent, or the actual on panel depiction in order to retain any form of coherence. In a display of unfettered bias however, Newjak has gone the extra mile and has decided to literally ignore all of these key aspects that are essential to power level determination. The list is disgracefully large and ranges from his ignoring the multitude of authoritative references and battles demonstrating WWH as the angriest and strongest Hulk prior to WBH (oh and i forgot to add this scan of Green Scar/WWH laying out the enormously amped Wendigo when i first posted the fight http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/...oandBiBeast.jpg )
,to his complete disregard for the pertinent showings and history of the mindless ones, Armcheddon and Wendigo establishing their formidability (all canon fodder in his estimation despite their history showing otherwise) to his ironic acceptance and then dismissal of Paks clear intention throughout WBH appearances. He then supplements this with massive amounts of equivocation, and continual references to irrelevant (as well as distorted) occurrences. In one of his many low points throughout the debate, he even attempts to make use of his own made up physics, all to demean the character........
As astonishing as this is, even more alarming is Newjacks ignorance of the characters in question. His misrepresentation of scans and lack of knowledge of the characters in question strongly suggests that his case against Hulk was formed through isolated scan hunting as opposed to actual study of the characters involved in this discussion. Nonetheless, the most unfortunate part of this debate is the mockery Newjack makes of logical argumentation. He repeatedly attempts to use emotive appeals to judges to conceal his distortion of logic and saddening use of fallacies which runs the gamut from strawmanning, to circular reasoning. Seriously trying to portray a skyfather level character surviving Hulk and Bettys collision via shielding themselves, as demeaning speaks volumes about his reasoning or lack thereof. Such reasoning would not hold up if used against other characters and there is no reason it should against Hulk. Jumps in power that are much less, significant, clearly defined and, authoritative are widely recognized on the forum (Kuurth juggernaut, Odinforce Thor etc) and so to denigrate Hulks clear elevation in power on the back of such a fickle case would be nonsensical.
No amount of appealing can hide the lack of coherence contained in his "counter arguments" because they are NOT born out of a genuinely different perception of the events surrounding WBH, but rather a desire to maintain the status of his preferred characters in relation to the Hulk. This sentiment underpins his entire approach to this discussion. Fortunately such desires, no matter their strength have no effect on the clarity and validity of evidence at hand and I can therefore confidently re-assert, that WBH in his few appearances definitively showed himself to be significantly (10x and above) above the consistent levels and ranges of previous Hulk incarnations. I have shown the evidence to be even more overwhelming and more barefaced. My assertion HAS been substantiated. The decision IS easy Case closed
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All thanks goes to starlock.
"Beware trolls, know me and know fear"
Last edited by Naija boy on May 10th, 2012 at 07:34 PM
So Naija has gone ahead and done what I knew he was going to do... Make long winded bloated posts full of insults.
He says that I've somehow made this about some hidden agenda. I don't know what he's talking about it's not a hidden agenda nor does it take away from my statements. I don't think WBH is that much stronger than Savage Hulk or Thor. Definitely not 10 times more. I've never hidden that judges. We are talking about strength levels of people able to destroy planets BRB, Gladiator. Hold the heavens Hercules. Close dimensional portals with their punches effecting the space/time barrier Thor/Hercules/Superman. So when someone comes in trying to say someone is astronomically stronger than that I would hope people would raise an eyebrow.
So nothing I've said changes.
Now I do agree with Naija that generally speaking direct comparisons of opponents can help distinguish how much stronger different versions of a character are. The Hulk is not that case. One tough Hulk opponent does not equal another. I've already showed that.
Namor beating Hulk, Thor losing to Hulk, Thor one shot KOing Namor. Yet Naija's reasoning would have you believe that Thor and Namor should be equal or incredibly close. They aren't.
Abom loses to Hulk barely, Herc manages to stalemate Hulk, Hercules easily one shots Abom. Clearly they are not equal nor are they in the same zip code strength wise.
Thor destroying Rulk, and destroying someone who easily dispatched Rulk. And no that wasn't Odinforce Thor. Anyone who knows what they are talking about would know when Thor encountered Rulk the second time Steve Rogers was running shield, and that Thor lost the Odinforce after his fight with Bor when Dr. Strange used the last portion of the OF Thor had to fix his hammer. And of course the fight with Bor took place during Dark Reign when Norman Osborn was in control which was before Steve Rogers was in control.
As for Hulk not being able to be in the low end. Hulk has had hard encounters with the Thing, even an intelligent Rhino has a win over him, and Colossus has netted a recent flashback win over him. So he can have tough fights against low end people. Of course no one would dare claim Thing is anywhere close to Thor in terms of physical might.
So his notion that the beings WBH fought automatically have to be herald level beings cause they are supposedly a 1000 times more powerful and they gave previous versions of Hulk hell is flawed.
Especially considering I've already shown supposedly stronger versions of Hulk fairing the exact same against opponents of previous Hulks.
He has called into question why I keep using planetary level to describe the attack. Because that is what I feel is the baseline level of power needed to perform the feat in question which involved destroying a planet.
He's been trying to play up the attack by saying since it took place a couple of miles in the air that somehow makes it a million times better. He tries to compare it to him not feeling me punch a couple hundred feet away.
The problem with his comparison is I don't pack enough power to not only destroy a planet with it, but also cause all the pieces of the planet to go scattering around neglecting their gravitational pull towards each other. Now add another person with that same power within the atmosphere of a planet yes it will f*ck that planet up even if the energy is released a few miles away.
Now he also tries to claim that it had to be better because Mindless ones were there. So obviously it took something way more than planetary level ability to break them.
I mean come on the Mindless Ones can and have suffered the same thing as any other nameless faceless horde used to make a hero look better.
Then he tells you that a skyfather Umar, assuming she was skyfather level, had to shield herself or she was gonna die. Baseless speculation considering the attack didn't even phase her, yeah she put a shield up but it's not like Magic Spell Based characters don't do that all time anyways.
He relies on Armcheddon.
Here is that same guy's son being vaporized by an explosion that only tickled the Hulk.
For the rest of his post just re read my first ones again that will pretty much sum up my retort to him.
There may come a day when Naija is proven right, and WBH might destroy Thor/Silver Surfer other LEGIT herald level beings with his attack. If that day should come I'll say I'm wrong.
But not based on a feat where Hulk had to share an attack to take out a planet which didn't even kill the major established power houses on it. I'm willing to say yes that WBH is supposed to be stronger, yes the feat is impressive, but in no way does it make him 10 times or more stronger than any other high end character or high end Hulk.
I wipe my hands of Naija's insults, rudeness, and just poor, a$$hole. attitude. You took what should have been a civil, fun debate and turned into a some kind of dick measuring contest. Even if I didn't completely agree with what you were saying I could still see the logic in it where as you acted like some self proclaimed genius who couldn't possibly be wrong probably at fault for the same things you claimed me to be doing. If that's how you are I'm just putting you on ignore. I don't have time to waste on people like you, even though you already have wasted too much of it already.
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Last edited by Newjak on May 17th, 2012 at 02:14 AM
It strikes me that these two conclusions are not mutually exclusive. That's really been a problem I've had judging this debate. I'm not, however, chalking this up to a miscommunication between the two and them just talking past each other. It's clear to me that there is significant disagreement. I am considering who proved their conclusion better, and who undermined the other's conclusion more. I spent several more hours than I anticipated reading and re-reading the posts and writing this. These are the highlights:
Naija boy had a lot of scans to illustrate the gap between WBH and prior incarnations. Selectivity, as Newjak strongly asserted, might explain the choice of scans. But those were a lot of scans; dozens it seemed. Naija boy being spoiled for choice tends against the idea that there is surreptitious picking and choosing. So WWH and WBH were stronger. And Newjak appears to have accepted that with an important caveat: the gap wasn't 10x huge or beyond heralds. So Newjak's admission appeared to defang Naija boy's insistence that there was a pronounced gap here.
Newjak centered his argument on Naija boy's idea of a consistent range for Hulk over his career. Newjak made sense at the start and at the end: crazy feats happen at these levels that Hulk/Thor/Superman occupy. Newjak hammered that point in by highlighting WWH's, Mindless Hulk's and Gray Hulk's own high-end feats. And, again, sometimes this attack seemed supported but oddly defanged by Naija boy's explanations that Hulk possesses dynamic strength.
For his part, Naija boy spent time attacking Newjak's issues over all those scans of past performances against opponents like Namor, Rulk, and Juggernaut. Naija boy pointed out context a few times, e.g., Namor relying on strength draining and being knocked out in his two wins. The showings don't seem as widely varying as it initially might have appeared to be. Which reinforces the alleged gap when they were pitted against WWH, let alone WBH (the actual subject here).
Inevitably, the large number of initial scans established the undeniable conclusion that both WWH and especially WBH were stronger. You would think that Newjak's acceptance would defang Naija boy's insistence that there was a pronounced gap here. But it didn't seem to. Not after all the posts were in. If there really was no consistency with a character like Hulk, if there really was no reason to think that higher end Savage Hulk couldn't do what occurred in HOTM, there's a distinct disconnect between that idea and Newjak's casual acknowledgment that, "Ok, yes, WBH was stronger, but..."
This doesn't prove that WBH was at least 10x stronger than WWH. But this didn't disprove it. And it didn't convince me that Naija boy's perspective on past performance comparisons was misplaced. Furthermore, I didn't see a lot of (if any) evidence that previous Hulks, Thor and Superman could do what WBH did. Generally speaking, Thor/Hulk/Superman do have crazy feats. But there wasn't any evidence of annihilating a planet and incinerating characters like Bi-Beast, Wendigo, Arm'Chedon and the population of Mindless Ones with collateral damage. What there was, was a lot of argument about the finer points of fictional physics on how comic planets get busted. Which, again, was more opinion than evidence on both sides.
It's true that the arguments tended to slide past each other. And for that reason, my conclusion became easier after awhile. Naija boy helped his case with evidence and pointed out issues of fact with Newjak's rebuttals concerning that evidence. Newjak had generalizations that made sense but Newjak's core criticisms tended to fall flatter because of disconnect and he didn't exactly help his case with evidence. Which begged the question for me: "If WBH's feat (shared) wasn't evidence that he was significantly stronger than his past selves and all his peers, then there should be a lot of evidence to draw from his past selves and his numerous peers across comics, right?" In simpler terms, I had an easier time believing that WBH was 10x stronger than previous incarnations than I did believing that WBH could in no way be 10x stronger than previous incarnations (or peers).
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
this was a tricky match to judge for basically the reason i said early on--both seemed to be arguing different issues. i had to continually remind myself that the goal here was for someone to convince me the new hulk was 10x stronger than the old one.
that is an extremely difficult thing to attempt to ascertain as it involves so much subjectivity and requires a firm grasp on where reg hulk should be viewed and likewise the new hulk. clearly the new hulk is stronger. but TEN TIMES stronger?
hrm.
i'm not convinced i'm going to use the best rationale to assess this match, but since direct feats become difficult to use (since finding 'average' feats for both is....almost impossible and direct battle feats do NOT reflect the best method of gauging strength imo due to different writers portraying characters as very different at times) i was forced to use authorial intent to come to a decision.
i think it was clear that wwh was INTENDED (feats aside) to be the stronger hulk we've ever seen. how much stronger is hard to say, but certainly stronger--strong enough to scare pretty well everyone in marvel. taking that, we know wbh was supposed to be far stronger than even THAT version of hulk. how much stronger though??
in the end, i was left thinking--wbh is meant to be a LOT stronger than even wwh hulk, and though i do not feel comfortable putting ANY number on it, i tended to buy NAJIA BOY's side more than i did nj's. it was certainly a cloudy debate, when you think that ANY hulk can possibly match or exceed (potentially) what wbh did, but again, i was forced to ask myself what i knew of the characters and decide what marvel was trying to do with wbh.
wbh was intended to be a lot stronger, that's all i know. nj i def see where you were coming from. a strange debate, but well done by both.
I have to admit, at times, I wasn't sure what exactly was being debated here as the topic seemed to bounce around. But after reading thoroughly and re-reading, I was able to come to a conclusion.
Hulk is a tricky character to gauge strength wise, just because finding an "average" is next to impossible. Hulk's very nature as a character in terms of power and strength is fluctuating, dependent on his anger and other emotional triggers. It gets even more cloudy when you realize that even the "weaker" incarnations of Hulk have done insane shit such as punch the time-stream, one shot asteroids bigger than Earth, and just recently, stalemate teams of characters whom they really shouldn't.
One thing, however, that's pretty clear is that under Pak, the "Green Scar" persona is intended to be above the other forms of Hulk. It's constantly drilled away at us, annoyingly so at times, that Hulk is madder/stronger/in greater control/etc. The real issue is whether or not WBH is greater than 10x stronger than previous incarnations.
To this end, I feel that Naija Boy did more to convince me. NewJak certainly raised points I agree with, though. Hulk, like I said before, is inconsistent because of the nature of his powers. In today's world of comics, Hulk will probably always be top level at "base", but his entire history suggests that "base" can vary wildly depending on who's writing.
This was a difficult thing to judge, and truth be told, I'm leaving the debate more confused than when I entered it, but I do appreciate the effort given by both debaters.
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Last edited by JakeTheBank on May 27th, 2012 at 06:35 PM
Am I still judging? I'm unclear about how many judges were asked on to the panel, but I'll go ahead and post my thoughts.
Basically I think that this was a flawed match from the beginning. I actually think that you could ultimately both be right about what you believe, and I think that the miscommunication (or outright ignorance, I'm not really sure) of what exactly you were concluding is reflected in the pacing of the match and the styles of the posts. The walls of text and back-and-forth ultimately didn't feel like they strongly supported either side but actually just actively worked to disparage the other poster.
You guys both spent a lot of time reinterpreting the match in order to sort of recap for the judges while digging away at your opponent. This felt less like a discussion about Hulk and more like a grudge match.
I think Naija Boy had the benefit of the comic book world putting a solid stamp of approval on what he was saying. Newjak had to contend with arguing against not only Naija but also the ignorance of the Marvel Universe regarding Hulk's previous displays of power.
I'm still leaving this match ultimately unconvinced about the significance of the strength gap between current Hulk and previous incarnations. Newjak, I think you had all the right ideas but were fighting an uphill battle and in that process got lost in all the side arguments to be had. You showed a lot of conviction and you had concrete points within what you were saying, but they got muddled. Just think about being concise, I guess. Attacking the heart of his argument and narrowing down what the match is really all about can help your argument to be more powerful.
Newjak asked me to post, so here I am. Going to keep it short and sweet though.
First of all, this was a pain in the ass to read. Seriously, this is not something I'd do again on a day when I've just gotten home from work. Going through it, I tried my best to read both sides of the argument, though honestly it felt a little too personal at times between both competitors, so it wasn't what I'd hoped it would be.
Personally, I don't believe for a second that the Hulk is or was ten times stronger than previous incarnations. That said, Naija did, for me, present a more concrete argument, which was always going to happen when, for me, It almost felt like Newjak was in the unenviable position of having to prove a negative. Had their positions been reversed i'd be voting for Newjak, but as it stands, Naija Boy just brought more to the table imo, and he gets my vote.
KMC Community Forums
May 9th, 2012 05:30 PM
Every part of that feat was impressive. Even the "easiest" part of the feat (relative to the other parts of the feat of course): 
