In the game, Revan fought 4 powerful individuals simultaneously and managed to escape from the tough battle by using Fold Space ability. Revan, with his TK abilities, could rag-doll his opponents around the room and he could also throw gigantic rocks at his opponents. Revan also demonstrated Force Lightning Storm power.
And not to forget that Revan have endured several centuries of punishment from Vitiate.
Do not underestimate Revan. Canonically, he was the most powerful Jedi of his time.
How about this feat:
3 Jedi Masters and the main hero (Jedi Knight) confronted Vitiate and attempted to arrest him. Jedi Master Tol Braga was particularly powerful in the Force and capable of performing decent TK feats and he also failed in this fight. The Sith Emperor overwhelmed his opponents without much effort with his Force Lightning Storm. Vitiate also turned all 4 Jedi in to his puppets after breaking them.
The main hero (Jedi Knight) was able to break free from the mental grip of Vitiate through external assistance after a long time. He was then sent after the others to bring them back.
In addition, Vitiate has demonstrated the capability to create illusions with the Force (I believe, Luke Skywalker has demonstrated this capability once). Vitiate can confuse and pre-occupy Marek with this ability and take advantage.
Furthermore, Vitiate is immortal. He can transfer his essence in to another human, if his body is destroyed.
Also keep in mind that Vitiate has impressive TK abilities. While we do not see him do much in the novel, there are two powerful hints:
1. Vitiate empowered his Elite Guards to such a degree that they could withstand Force based attacks from Revan and Meetra.
2. Vitiate prevented Scourge from striking Revan without any gesture; similar to what Yoda did to Ventress.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on May 11th, 2012 at 08:15 AM
Not selling Revan or Tol Braga short. But Vitiate has done nothing that doesn't require preparation that compares to Marek's powers. If it comes time that blades proverbially clash, then Vitiate goes down hard.
Registered: Apr 2011
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I'm still not sure why a few seconds prep is somehow an ineffective method of defense/attack. Vitiate floored Revan who was balls-out charging him, and then spammed lightning left right and center.
This isn't FF Tactics where you need three to five turns to cast a spell; Force use prep is not unheard of and indeed is consistently referred to as an appropriate way to gather more strength for a stronger use of the Force.
You're assuming because Vitiate made efforts to gather up strength to flatten Revan (which he did utterly) that it's all he can do and therefore something like a Yoda-esque Force push is out of the equation.
When Galactic enters his ultimate BS pimp mode, they call him Marka Ragnos.
Ineffective? Clearly not, since it yielded results with Revan.
A comparison between Revan and Marek isn't flattering for the former, as the latter enjoys a tremendous advantage in sheer power. As Neph pointed out, Marek is also capable of hurling TIE Fighters with his bare hands, indicating that his physical strength vastly outstrips Revan's as well, which means that it's unlikely Vitiate's pedestrian!lightning will impede Marek to the extent that it did Revan (I refer to how the impact stopped Revan in his tracks). Marek is also a Juyo practitioner, which requires him to have been a "high end master of multiple forms" and therefore absolutely lethal with a lightsaber.
Nowhere did I claim that that was all he can do. I claimed that, based on Marek's superiority over Revan, I doubt that anything less but the absolute best Vitiate can muster will threaten Marek.
Registered: Dec 2007
Location: Land of Little Cubes and Tea
You're underestimating Vitiate if you think that nothing but his A-game will even threaten Marek. Marek was challenged by a random Shadow Guard at one point. And he was definately threatened by Vader. Would you put Vader over Vitiate (srs question)?
I wasn't suggesting you were. Its just that he literally told me that story yesterday and I thought it was worth mentioning.
Last edited by Nephthys on May 12th, 2012 at 01:42 AM
Force Lightning Storm, Fighting Illusions, Fold Space, throwing TIE fighters with bare hands. Stick to novelizations to avoid all that colorful over hyping.
Considering that Marek's feats are enormous even in novels my opinion is that he would definitely do better against Vitiate and at least achieve that BANG effect like with Palpatine.
Vader had lightsaber...
Just couldn't ignore this one.
How exactly Ventress fully trying to resist Yoda is similar to Vitiate stopping Scourge, when fight was finished, his Force defenses down, he would never dare to confront Vitiate himself and was so scared of him that quite literally pissed his pants from a mind brush?
Last edited by Arhael on May 12th, 2012 at 05:07 AM
Revan's feats are also enormous. We do not see many fancy moves like in TFU but Revan's accomplishments are well-known.
"I have saved the Republic twice before. I have fought Mandalores and armies of the dark side." (Revan to Sith Strike Team)
So? Vitiate is immensely powerful in the Force. He did not felt the need to use one.
His power was such, that 'armed Sith Lords' were allowed in his room to meet him without second thoughts.
Scourge expected them to search him, or at least instruct him to turn over his weapons. But Yarri and the others simply stood at attention, waiting for him to enter. The fact that they showed no concern over letting an armed Sith Lord speak to the Emperor face-to-face without any kind of preparation was a testament to the Emperor’s unfathomable power. (Source: Revan novel)
The Sith Lord raised his lightsaber to deliver the coup de grâce. He brought his arm down, but it suddenly stopped as if an invisible and impossibly strong hand had seized his wrist. He glanced back at the Emperor in surprise.
“Put away your blade. You have passed the test,” the Emperor said. “But Revan can still be of use to me.” (Source: Revan novel)
Do not underestimate Scourge. He is far from being a weakling.
From codex entry of Scourge in SWTOR:
As the Sith Emperor’s personal executioner, the grimly fatalistic Lord Scourge has personally killed more than a hundred Jedi–and ten times as many Sith.
Just because Socurge stands no chance against Vitiate - doesn't indicates that he is not a powerful and lethal combatant. Point is that you have yet to grasp Vitiate' power.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on May 12th, 2012 at 07:53 AM
Gonna state out of the actual debate. But as for Revan's mask, it was taken from a Mandalorian and used by him. Back then I believe Beskar was plentiful enough that it was used by the Mandalorians regularly, and Beskar's basically the adamantium of Star Wars. And the mask is not 4,000 years old. I think Old Republic takes place in the area of 300 years after KOTOR 1&2, so it's still pretty new.
But all in all, to do what Vitiate did to Beskar is amazing.
Accomplishments don't equal to feats. And there is no enormous feats from him apart from absorbing lightning, which Marek happened to be able to do as well.
Which is why he totally failed with Jedi Knight.
And disarming Sith before meeting him would be very stupid as it would show that he fears them and cripple his dominance over them.
It is his own interpretation of Vitiate's power. It only shows how scared he was. And again he didn't try to resist, he wouldn't dare.
Amount of Jedi he killed means nothing as he would never dare to fight, if he thought he could lose. If he doesn't have any advantage, he wouldn't risk his life.
When he met Meetra, he didn't risk fighting her. He was scared to fight Nyriss as well as he thought her to be more powerful and in her prime.
He dared to face another Council member only because Nyriss convinced that he was old and weak and she was right.
Yet, when he faced that council member, he wasn't even able to block Force lightning. Got his ass kicked by Nyriss within seconds before she faced Revan. Got subdued by Jedi Knight.
In book he was perfect depiction of typical Sith Lord - ambitious, cunning and cowardice. In no way he was much for any powerful individual like Meetra, Revan, Malgus, Satel Shan, e.g.
Yet? It's not like I researched about Vitiate yesterday.
I grasp his power enough to know that he can mind dominate unprepared/unconscious foes and give Force lightning so intensive that very few Jedi are capable to block it.
Satel Shan while being Knight already effectively utilized Force offensively and demonstrated absorbing ability of extreme level as well as defeated Malgus, who was one of the strongest combatants, if not the strongest at the time. Moreover became Grand Master decade later.
While Marek defeated Vader and fought Palpatine, who at the time was enormously powerful as Vitiate and didn't need lightsaber. Didn't read book but at least in game Marek put Palpatine on the floor before that fatal BANG.
Either of this two have good chance one on one against Vitiate as did Jedi Knight.
Last edited by Arhael on May 18th, 2012 at 12:30 AM
Revan's feats are mostly summarized in dialogues. We do not have much visual materials. Revan's performance on the Star Forge is specially noteworthy.
WTH? Vitiate is a match for any powerful Jedi.
This is your assumption. The novel does not supports your view.
This sounds like an excuse to belittle Vitiate's feat.
How about this:
Revan landed on the ground and wheeled around to face the other man. He thrust out with the Force, the impact hitting the soldier square in the chest. Instead of sending him flying, it only staggered him back half a step—this close to the Emperor they were sworn to protect, the guards were able to draw on his power to protect themselves.
Now what excuse you have for this?
He is smart. However, he is also a warrior. He proved his mettle in the Sith Academy and has many kills under his belt.
This is how Nyriss percieved Scourge:
"I have studied your records from the Academy and observed your battle with the mercenaries in my courtyard," she said at last. "You have a special gift. You do not just feed on the raw emotions of your foe; you gorge yourself on them. You feast on their primal fear. It amplifies your hate and anger. It fuels the power of the Force. It transforms you into an instrument of death and destruction."
Scourge nodded. Battling a living foe was intoxicating; with each attack and counter he felt a rush of heat coursing through his veins, energizing and empowering him. Yet he had felt almost none of that at the UDM plant. "When I fought the security droid, there was nothing to grab on to. It was cold. Empty."
Are you assuming that he always got lucky or was stronger? Extremely one-side assumption from you. Though I am not surprised since you are looking for excuses to belittle Vitiate.
"You're lying," she said with a disbelieving shake of her head. "You’re afraid to face me. You'll say anything to avoid a fight."
"Do I seem afraid to you?"
"No," she admitted. "You seem strangely calm."
"That is because I finally understand what Revan meant. He wants us to unite against a common foe."
"What common foe?"
"Our Emperor is planning an invasion of the Republic. Revan wants to stop him. So do I."
"Why would you want to stop an invasion of the Republic?"
"The Emperor is mad. He wants to repeat the mistakes of the Great Hyperspace War; he wants to plunge us into a conflict that will end with our extinction."
Prior to the aforementioned exchange of the dialogue, this is what Scourge thought about Meetra:
Part of him wanted to leap into the fray: battling this Jedi would be a true test of his skills. He didn’t know which of them would prove the stronger, but he was intrigued by the challenge. Yet another part of him knew she represented something far more significant than a worthy foe.
You were saying?
Dark Council members are the most powerful representatives of the Sith Empire.
And Sith ideology is not just about the power but also the opportunity.
It is very difficult to block a powerful variant of the Force Lightning. And one thing that you should have noted is that Scourge handled Xedrix's guardians simultaneously - a testament to his combat abilities.
Nyriss was one of the most powerful individuals in the whole Galaxy. She subdued both Scourge and Meetra simultaneously. However, this does not takes away from the capabilities of Scourge and Meetra.
Listen genius! This Jedi Knight is immensely powerful.
The information provided above should enlighten you.
He can crush the will of even a prepared foe. Their is no known defence against his mental powers.
No one can block his Force Lightning Storm for long.
1. Vitiate subdued Revan TWICE.
2. Vitiate also floored 3 Jedi Masters and the main Jedi hero simultaneously without much difficulty.
3. Vitiaite killed nine Dark Council members within 2 hours.
3. Vitiate has killed many many individuals and ruled for a very long time. He is extraordinarily powerful in the Force.
On individual basis, none of these two stand a chance against Vitiate.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on May 18th, 2012 at 07:55 PM
This is not assumption, this is opinion based on facts from the novel.
No it is not excuse to belittle powers of anyone. I merely point out at stupidity of comparing Ventress actively trying to resist Yoda to Scourge submitting to Vitiate without slightest attempts to resist.
Why should I have excuse to it at all as it is totally irrelevant to the subject?
Actually all feats of both Scourge and Vitiate are irrelevant. Whatever powers Scourge had, he never dared a single time to try resisting Vitiate, which makes comparison of Yoda disarming Ventress totally useless.
I gave you examples proving that Scourge would not engage stronger foe, unless circumstances suit him, while you try to counter it with his feats and combat capabilities brining out quotes as if I never read book myself. My point is Scourge did not resist Vitiate, however, Ventress did try to resist as much as possible. Conclusion, you can't compare this two things, whatever powers and skills each individual possessed.
So, is your opinion that Jedi Knight is more powerful than Satel Shan and Marek. Satel Shan, who is described as widely recognized as the most powerful Jedi of her time and Emperor's most hated foe?
And Marek, who constantly tested his limitations, which puts his in power levels beyond any known Jedi and who was much even for Palpatine.
It seems that you put Jedi Knight out of context as he singlehandedly engaged Vititate, did not get his mind raped, had fun time with his illusions and blocked his "Force Lightning Storm" for long enough to strike him down.
So what is your point? Are you saying that Vitiate's power and capabilities are beyond Palpatine's?
So, are you saying that Jedi Knight, which is still "Knight" for god sake, is more powerful and skillful, than Satel Shan and Marek? Please, that's just silly. You need to understand that Vitiate is not undefeatable and there are individuals in EU that are capable to defeat him or at least put up a good fight.
And notice, I don't say that Marek or Satel would win Vititate. I said that either of them could defeat him individually, which means that they could loose as well, I never gave definite answer like you always give about Vitiate raping everyone. And again it is not Force power contest, all goes out, Vitiate's huge advantage in terms of superior power is only part of the complicated combat equation.
Also, let's not forget that others also have advantages Vitiate lacks. For instance Satel Shan as a Jedi and very experienced and wise grand master has superior self-control and clear focused state of mind. And Marek gets so insanely angry that, while he is still no much for Vitiate in terms of power, his Force bursts are much more offensive.
Last edited by Arhael on May 21st, 2012 at 12:31 AM
Implications should not be equated with evidence, since they are by their very nature somewhat vague. You shouldn't disparage LeGenD for not concluding Marek is superior to the Jedi Knight based on rank.
That said, Marek has shown himself to be substantially more powerful and ferocious than Vitiate in combat.