This was a pretty good debate, so I want to personally congratulate both Existere and Abhil for doing a good job making their case. I like to rant and talk a bit, so excuse me if my vote isn't brief enough.
Now, Cable vs. Wonder Woman is an intriguing match because both these characters could not be more different than one another for their respective Mid-Herald Tiers. This match is made all the more interesting because you have two debaters who know their shit when it comes to each character.
One thing that I liked from Existere's posts is that he was able to show me the level of precision and control Cable had. Multitasking and the like while dealing with arguably one of - if not the - top high herald in Marvel in the form of ol' Norrin Radd. Being able to fight, even in the form of an ultimately losing battle against the Surfer, is a good feat. Being able to do that while performing everything else at the same Cable was doing is pretty absurd, all things considered. Considering that in this fight, Cable has no need to split his attention while fighting Wonder Woman, that's a strong advantage I personally don't think Abhil properly countered or deconstructed here.
On the other hand, Abhil made a strong case concerning the sheer raw physical might of Diana, who's a solid level below the likes of Superman and able to give him and other "elites" a strong physical fight. He was definitely capable of bringing some points to light such as Cable's default durability outside of his shields. Should Diana breach them, I'd confident Nate wouldn't be able to endure a full powered punch from the Amazon.
But could she breach them to begin with?
This is ultimately something I wasn't convinced with utmost certainty. Given time, I'm positive she could, but Existere made a lot of strong points showing that Cable wouldn't give her that time. Cable's versatility and ability to do a laundry list of things at once while fighting an opponent was a point that Abhil dismissed, but didn't outright counter, imo. Granted, levitating a massive landmass and repairing structures and reading minds of the planet doesn't matter in terms of this fight as there's no reason for him to even attempt those things, but the fact that Cable was able to do those things while during a fight leads me to believe that should he focus all of his effort on his opponent as he would here, things would simply look progressively bad for Diana.
I certainly don't think Cable would have an easy time besting Wonder Woman, but Existere proved to me that he'd eventually overwhelm Diana with a multitude of different options where as Diana is limited in comparison. Ultimately, I have to give him the vote. Tough, tough match up. to the both of you.
No problem to me man. This was my first match and apparently I didn't do too bad against a forum veteran. Win and loss hardly matter in such kind of debates.
The match up is between superior physical stats/magical equipment and versatility in psi-powers. Wonder Woman is obviously more powerful in a physical sense. Her speed, strength, durability, and magical equipment give her an underrated edge in most battles. However, I do believe that Cable's force-fields and 360 degree control of objects through telekinesis is a major point to this battle. I will concede that his telepathy isuseless with WW's Pallas upgrades (Athena gave Wonder Woman her vision - basically no mind phucking of any kind will happen).
However, WW is a close combat fighter. Her only ranged attacks are her Tiara throw and her Aegis lightning. Her tiara would almost definitely tear through Cable's forcefield but I believe that while it might tear through a wall of force, it can be re-directed if pushed from the side. Her lightning won't do much against his forcefields. She has to be able to break past his force-fields to actually be able to fight the man she is clearly physically superior to - the main question becomes can she do it before he telekinetically slices off her head?
This becomes especially relevant when you take into account the fact that during his fight with Silver Surfer he was holding up an entire island in the sky (and the Namor examples do not fly with me as it's supported by a large body of water - meaning he was not the only thing keeping the island afloat. The buoyancy issue only meant that it was not stable, part of it was sinking. He kept that part up.) So, taking into considering that a large portion of Cable's power is now freed up to do damage, I can see him TK striking WW with a ton of force. And being that he can do it omni-directionally, I see him striking her from behind, slicing her head off - because TK is nothing you can physically/mentally see. Just because Spiderman dodged Moondragon's mental blast (btw, Spidey has Spider Sense - WW doesn't have that) does not mean that anyone can dodge an invisible force.
However, and this was the point I had the most trouble on - I've seen the lasso do incredible things. Often it is the easiest and simplest things that would have netted you the win: If Abhi had talked more about encasing Cable, inside his forcefield, with the lasso I might have been inclined to give him the win - because then Cable's powers would have basically been nullified. She would have nullified his powers, contained him, and mind controlled the mind controller. Instead Abhi went for a brute force attack against Cable's TK, from which he can use to attack at any angle.
In my opinion, that leads to her death. Existere gets my vote.
To say that Smurph did a better job debating, and I believe he did, is no insult to Abhi. If this is your first KMC tourney-style match - and I think I remember you saying it is - it's better than 90% of the debuts others have had.
However, I'm voting for Abhilegend. Why? Smurph was fighting an uphill battle imo. He picked a character with variable power levels and not a ton of time at the apex of his power. Abhi had a lot more raw material to draw from, since Diana is the older character and has stayed fairly consistent in portrayals. Abhi didn't do anything unexpected, but also didn't shoot himself in the foot and did a good job showing what Diana is capable of, which was enough in my eyes.
The gambit that is a telepath at this power level also did Smurph no favors, so it wasn't an easy matchup for him. The fact that I was siding with Cable briefly is a testament to your ability to squeeze the most out of the character. Judges tend to side with the best in-thread arguments, usually with good reason, but occasionally matches can be won in the draft room.
Would liked to have seen a few things though. One, at least a couple more posts from each. I felt like I was still in the "see-saw" early stages of fighting when each post sways me back and forth, before I can form a coherent opinion that is less susceptible to individual posts. Second, no ABC logic (Abhi). Watch yourself there, it usually doesn't stick. Third, discussion on some of the old scans Abhi used, which may have been able to be disqualified on grounds of continuity.
Vote to Abhi, but grats to Smurph. You earned the win, and I thought did more with a slightly less powerful character.
I'd like to thank everyone that came together to create this battlezone.
Digi, jake, Galan, Blair , and Gecko thank you for your expert analysis of this very hard to judge match. I'm just glad I wasn't a judge because this match was very close and too hard to pick out a clear winner.
Smurph and Abhil I thought both of you did an excellent job and set the standard of what it takes to come in here and win a belt.
Abhil , you where sensational ! Never did I think going into this match you were such a good debater ( I better watch out in the vs. forum). My hat's off to you man. Keep up doing what you're doing and I'm sure you'll have a title in no time.
Smurph , once again you've proven that you are the best of the best. Top 1% in KMC in terms of debating. Congratulations man you are KMC'S Mid Herald Champion . Here'e a little something the gang over at Team Authority made for you.
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
i think it was very well done. not entirely sure who i would have voted for tbh. i think maybe more posts would have helped solidify things for me in one direction or the other.
smurph is among the class of kmc and was likely the huge favorite going in. drafting one of the best in the tier also didn't hurt.
i've had reason to come to know abhi is distinguishing himself as a very good debater as well. don't know of anyone in the forum who can bring scans to bear like he can in a debate. VERY impressive and very knowledgeable and fun to debate against. he made a great first showing here.
all told, i think it went very well for the first event. great idea jake and well run by don. kudos gents.
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to the both of you.
May 26th, 2012 07:09 AM
