In this post I'm going to tackle the part of the debate that rests on all issues telepathic.
Smurph Post 2: The Telepathy Debacle
As I see it, here are the major issues:
Xavier vs. Cable
This is, of course, the major comparison that Leo wants to draw. Why, I'm not super sure. Xavier's record against Magneto - erasing his mind, controlling his mind, having Erik state Charles could easily enter his thoughts - are not really falling in Leo's favor. Yeah, Leo can attempt to brush away these instances. We saw him draw out in detail what a grueling battle Mags went through in Fatal Attractions. But at the end of the day, he's up against someone who dueled Surfer on even ground while performing global telepathy (and having done that for days). That's sort of the bottom line here, and no matter how Leo props up Magneto's fight against the X-Men, that's still something that can't be ignored.
Incidentally, the X-Men in a wide variety of incarnations have defeated Magneto over and over again.
Here's the X-Men getting decimated by their simulation of Cable 75 times in a row with even Wolverine losing all hope for victory:
(Cable DID go on to beat the X-Men with utter ease, as well as Six Pack, while simultaneously holding up Providence, performing global telepathy and immediately prior to dueling the Silver Surfer. Magneto, on the other hand, got beat up by Rogue and Bishop, then stabbed by Wolverine. Har har. )
Leo would like us to believe that Xavier's offensive telepathy is better than God-Like Cable's offensive telepathy. This is, of course, ridiculous.
I've already talked about how Xavier's peer, Emma Frost, was facing utter collapse by simply being near Cable's mind despite having Cerebra at her side.
This isn't the only comparison that exists however:
X-Man, pre-shaman. Xavier ran from him. Cable withstood an onslaught that put Xavier on his knees, and actually bested Nate.
Stryfe, Cable's genetic duplicate, made Xavier his slave. Cable, however, mindraped Stryfe, Gambit and Bishop (there's that name again!) with utter ease in the exact same arc.
And, I shouldn't need to say it, but for emphasis: this was before Cable began to harness his true potential, before he got Deadpool's healing factor, before he became a god.
As direct comparisons go, Cable is the superior in skill and (depending on the version) in power. Which makes sense, really. Xavier may be a mutant leader and a powerful mind, but Cable is a mutant who was bred to be the most powerful mind, who has been leading a war since the day he was born. As experience and genetics go, so do skill and power, and Cable comes out on top in this comparison.
Cassandra Nova
I shouldn't really need to address this, but while I'm covering telepathy:
A hilariously disingenuous comparison.
Cable's mind nearly crushed Emma's shields without him directing any attention towards her whatsoever.
Xavier got mindraped by Cassandra Nova while he was using cerebra, then he got mindraped by her while she destroyed his team, then she went on to destroy the Shi'Ar. Then he split his mind into thousands of pieces and hid in them via Cerebra, and managed to successfully ambush Cassandra Nova's mind.... but didn't actually do anything but cause her to jump into a different body.
So no, I don't really think the second feat is in any way superior to the first.
What was that you were saying about context, Leo?
Magneto's anti-telepathy EM powerz
Magneto once reversed the poles on the earth. These powers hampered Xavier and Jean's global telepathy, thus leaving them to use Cerebra to access the mutant minds across the world.
Incidentally, this also hindered the vaunted Cassandra Nova.
This was still in affect when Cable, in god-form, accessed not only the mutant minds but every single mind across the planet, read every thought and soothed the pain of every dying person. For days on end.
Yet more proof that Xavier falls hilariously short of God-Like Cable and that Magneto has squat to offer against Nate's telepathy.
Moving on...
Scope vs. Depth
This is Leo's argument to counter Cable's stupidly impressive telepathy feats that he performed globally, as well as to argue against Cable's outright accidental trouncing of Emma Frost.
Basically, you buy into his argument if you believe that there is no difference between Cable crushing Emma's shields without even realizing she's there, and Cable directing his entire attention towards Emma. Further, you buy into his argument if you believe that Magneto's telepathic shields are actually superior to those of Emma w/ Cerebra, and that they are so superior that unlike Emma, who devoted all her attention to shielding her team, Magneto's shields (powered not by meta human ability, but by willpower and hope) would be so strong that they could hold up while devoting attention to battling somebody who effectively dueled Surfer.
We've seen Cable without god-like power show significant ( > Xavier) skill in telepathic combat, and we've seen Cable with god-like power show significant ( > Xavier) skill with global telepathy. Cable doesn't have to choose between scope and depth, he possesses both, and, as Emma Frost will tell you, uses both simultaneously.
Conclusion
While, I've pretty much beaten this point to death, but one last go: Cable has shown significant skill across his career, and frankly Xavier doesn't compare. Against Stryfe, against X-Man, against Emma Frost or against Magneto's anti-TP EM manipulation, Cable has the clear cut superior showings, and those are almost all without God-Like Power. Xavier is hilariously outgunned, and Xavier actually has a winning record against Erik.
Magneto, meanwhile, has to devote his entire attention to fighting off Xavier. He was distracted enough by Bishop, Rogue and Wolverine that Xavier actually broke through and utterly mind-raped him. Now he's up against a man that was simultaneously outputting >Xavier telepathy while dueling the Silver Surfer while levitating Providence (Magneto simply kept his rock in orbit, with the help of Earth's gravitation), etc, etc.
Basically, Magneto is out of his league, up against a simply superior threat. This is reinforced when we look at his long, losing history against the X-Men, and compare that to the battles the X-Men had against a simulation of God-Like Cable: they got utterly decimated 75 battles in a row.
My next post will get into how Cable's telekinesis is what Magneto's EM manipulation would like to be, and the last points that I'd like to throw down to hammer this match home.
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
sweet.
i'll give this post a tombstone piledriver on the weekend if you manage to get your concluding post up and running. if not i'll just wait for you to make your conclusion and i'll wrap things up. if you feel you'd like the last post, no worries, make it whenever.
Between the new argumentation that I want to bring into the debate and the points of yours that I want to deconstruct, I probably have 1-2 posts worth of material that I want to add. Because I'm going to bring up stuff that we haven't touched on yet, I want to give you appropriate response time, so last post goes to you at your leisure sir.
I saw something about a Tombstone Piledriver. Not having read anything yet, I expect this match to play out exactly like Wrestlemania. Don't disappoint.
Hey guys, I apologize in advance if this seems kinda rushed. If I were a responsible man, I'd be packing up all my bags and heading to my first day of work early for a good impression. Instead I'm debating comic book characters. Priorities are a win.
What I want to do with this post is get some perspective on everything that would be happening in this battle. I've talked a lot about what I think is at the center of the match: Cable's telepathy vs. Magneto's defense. While I think that's the core issue, however, there's a lot of other stuff on top, beneath and around that.
EM Manipulation and God-Like Telekinesis
Leo talks a lot about 'scope vs. depth' when he wants to attack Cable's telepathic superiority, but it's a funny talk to talk given how he boasts about Magneto's EM manipulation.
The famed bullet feat is impressive, sure. If Leo's going to talk about how scope doesn't translate into power though, then it certainly hurts his feats more than Cable's. The bullet itself was big, but not incredibly so - no more so than Avalon or Providence, for instance. Additionally, the scans actually talk about how as opposed to manipulating the metal of the bullet, he's pulling at its' cargo, and the unique properties of the phased construct. All in all I'm not really sure what Magneto's actually doing, but for sure the most impressive part of the feat is that he did so from so far away, which has absolutely zero application in this match.
Cable, on the flip side, went toe to toe with Surfer using only his telekinesis. He showed he could match a herald of Galactus both in finesse (subatomically manipulating everything they passed by to repair the world as they fought) and in brute force (outright breaking Surfer's board like a motherf*cking badass).
Leo claims that Magneto's EM manipulation would have a detrimental effect on Cable, but he hasn't really shown this other than giving feats with scope, but lacking depth. Cable's used his TK to manipulate energy, make shields and perform worldwide biological manipulation (when he modified a virus and infected the world, turning everybody pink... he showed he could undo it with a snap of his fingers).
Pretty frankly, his fight against Surfer was a greater use of TK in battle than Magneto, though versatile and impressive, has ever shown. People love Mags (myself included) because he uses his powers so effectively, breaching the traditional limits of magnetism. Cable, however, possesses no limits. He has Magneto's powers, plus every other kind of tele-ism, and then his godlike telepathy to boot. In short, Cable's telekinesis is what Magneto's EM manipulation would like to be when it grows up, and there is no way that Magneto could utilize his powers in battle that Cable, having shown subatomic manipulation in battle could not counter.
I think Leo wanted us to really buy into Erik being the 'master of magnetism', and ride out on the fact that Cable has a metal arm to manipulate. Cable, having performed subatomic manipulation on that arm every moment of his life since he was infected with the TO virus, will not be an easy target. If Magneto really tries to do harm to Cable's body, however, it's not really going to even bother Cable, bringing me to my second bullet...
Deadpool's Healing Factor
I probably don't need to post too much here. Basically, the only way for Magneto to win this battle is to knock Cable out. Cable's shields, TK and telepathy already make this super difficult for Erik to even attempt, but any damage he could manage to inflict would be immediately repaired.
Deadpool is a mutant that has healed himself from a puddle of goo. Cable has his healing factor in his God-Like incarnation.
The Big Picture
I know I've harped on this point enough already, but here goes one more time:
God-Like Cable performed a ludicrous amount of feats in the span of days.
He rerouted enough water to flood half the Sahara. Kicked loggers out of the rainforest. Stopped the white blood count deterioration of every AIDS victim in Africa. Straightened the leaning tower of Pisa.
On a daily basis he stopped 14 individual acts of terrorism, 1100 attempts of murder, 7 thousand car accidents.
Every day he output enough telepathic power to accidentally ruin Emma Frost and enough telekinetic power to levitate Providence.
He then showed that his leftover power was enough to give Surfer a run for his money.
His ability to multitask is nothing short of absolutely awesome. He starts fresh here, and will not tire out.
Magneto, while a multitasker and powerful in his own right, has never had such a display of power. When performing his big feats like the bullet feat, it's taken so much concentration and energy that his nose was bleeding the entire time and he was spent from the exhaustion. Fending off Professor X consistently took all of his attention, enough so that Wolverine stabbing Magneto allowed X to get through.
Cable could attempt zero telepathy other than simply having his mind present, and Magneto's shields would be hard pressed to hold up, as shown by Emma. Should Cable direct any attention whatsoever towards Magneto, Erik's concentration and willpower is divided and his shields short out, as does his mind shortly after.
The big picture is that all of this is happening at once and that Magneto, with his mental shields being fueled by concentration and constant energy, will not be able to hold up against somebody of Cable's caliber. The fact that Cable doesn't even need to worry about his own person, since he possesses DP's healing factor, is the icing on the cake. He can focus almost the entirety of his considerable energy and power on the offensive, both telepathically and telekinetically.
Magneto couldn't deal with that tactic when it was Professor X, Wolverine, Bishop and Rogue. He falls in this battle.
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
nice. should make for a fun reply.
you good now, or did you still need to post? if you've wrapped things up, i can probably address these posts tomorrow. if you still need more, no worries. just let me know when i can go ahead and post a conclusion.
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
all righty, so getting to the end now. i'll reply to some of the points smurph made in the last couple posts then share some final thoughts
well, the reason why i drew that comparison is because xavier is widely considered to be the most powerful mind on the planet. i showed some of his feats to illustrate his power, then showed that despite that, the only reason he is ever able to defeat magneto is because he has help from team or plot or both. in a straight 1on1 match up, xavier has NEVER defeated magneto. even when mags was caught off guard and without his helmet he defended against xavier's assault with only his will power. i showed that in one instance it took jean and xavier to break through a DISTRACTED magneto's mind. even phoenix couldn't get through his shields with a tk/tp combo assault. and THEN i showed newer evidence relating to his helmet and its ability to protect vs psi attacks. xavier didn't even bother to ATTEMPT to attack mags until AFTER he removed his helmet.
on even ground? hrm. even ground would imply the battle was close, or in doubt in some way. that battle was neither. ss was NEVER in any danger during that battle at all, nor is it said nate was using his telepathy during that fight. given that he was dying, my thought would be that no, he probably wasn't. there is also the fact that his helping those who were dying was his ONLY focus while he performed that feat (as i showed earlier).
i showed mags EFFORTLESSLY defeating the team of x-men by simply not allowing them to access their powers, and he even defeated a team that had phoenix. beating the x-men has always been easy for mags. his loyalties are often divided however and as much as he battles them, he respects them and has no desire to kill them.
seriously? in the first scan she has a couple drops of sweat on her forehead then....nothing. so much so she's actually clowning with logan! lol we clearly have different definitions of 'near collpase'. in the second scan we see she is not even WEARING cerebra! yet she talks as though her shields are still holding--WITHOUT it.
er, no he didn't. in fact he didn't really even try attacking nate. nate was uber, no doubt (but drawing comparisons between cable and x-man is ridiculous for loads of reasons) but xavier only let nate THINK he defeated him otherwise nate would have burned out or shut down. xavier never really engaged him and ALLOWED him to THINK he'd won. big difference.
well, that was a display of TK not TP so.....really kinda moot. besides, THAT cable was NOT just the regular cable:
co-opted a mind maybe even GREATER than his own..... tch.
well, i think we've seen that smurph MAY have overstated that fact, slightly.... we also have the fact that xavier has done MORE than this version of cable, with greater feats to show. that may seem unfair, and yet that is part of the disadvantage he faces with this version--extremely limited feats. we know that even a FOCUSED xavier (who has easily read the minds of MORE people than are on our planet) was unable to get through a prepared magneto's mind. we saw his shields were so great he utterly no-sold emma. smurph wants us to believe that FOCUS would lead to greater showing, but that absolutely DOES NOT FOLLOW. we've seen a focused emma, a focused sersi and a focused xavier. why would a focused cable be any different?
bear in mind judges--while preconceived notions and intuition play a role in deciding the outcome of these character battles ON PANEL PROOF must still be the deciding factor. we know cable has some good feats, but magneto's are as impressive. cable has good feats, but xavier's are as impressive and more so imo. all we really know is cable was definitely below (quite a bit below) the ss and was never able to actually mount a serious threat to norrin. breaking his board was cool and all, but did nothing.
well, close..... i would invite judges to go back to the cassie scans for a correct summation of that event. which is STILL (imo) xavier's best feat. maybe. and by causing her to jump into a new body, it led directly to cassie's defeat.
well, if that's all..... the moon is 6x smaller than earth and IT has poles too..... nothing to stop him reversing the poles on an object so small.
heh. again with the over-estimation. 'accidental trouncing'. again we have different definitions.... cable's ONLY feat is global TP. xavier's feats are better. he has the very telling NON-feat of NOT having engaged ss in TP battle. wonder why he didn't try that.....
lol willpower AND his own power AND his psi proof helmet which seemingly (currently) offers far greater protection than in the past. the final point which i have not brought up, deals PRECISELY with with mags' OWN meta-human PSI abilities. these have been documented NUMEROUS times. from his sending tp messages to tp talents, from sensing dreams and even going astral. his own minor psi talents ALSO aid in protecting him from tp assault.
smurph is making a huge deal of this tp issue because he knows his tk will be effectively newtered by my shields. in effect, if he can't convince you he can beat me quickly, via tp, he can't really win this fight imo. in order, again, to believe that, you have to believe he can literally OVERWHELM magneto to the point where mags can't use his powers to affect cable's METALLIC body at all. it's true cable can keep the t-o virus in check by himself, but if mags is controling it, forcing him to FIGHT to control the t-o, suddenly he's left open to a variety of attacks.
well, we don't know he was still using tp as he fought, but we do know it wasn't much of a duel with ss. cable was very clearly inferior to ss. and mags actually brought avalon into earth's atmosphere as he depowered the x-men and it was at least the size of providence imo.....
so, really, nothing too new here. him saying cable's global tp feat>>>all other tp feats, when really that is nowhere close to accurate. even in my first post, did xavier seem intimidated by cable in the least??
mags has dozens of great tp-resistant showings against KNOWN/PROVEN/UBER telepaths whose feats surpass cable's. he simply cannot support the stance he is attempting to take. it's part of the disadvantage of having so few feats to draw from. mag's otoh has dozens of great showings, some as impressive as anything nate did. he also has the additional luxury of battling someone he has effortlessly crushed in the past, and who has the ultimate vulnerability against magneto--a mostly metallic body. there is absolutely ZERO proof cable's tp could so completely overwhelm magneto that he would be unable to defend and reply to the attack. and since tp is his only real avenue, that leaves him in a world of trouble.....
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
so, let's finish.
i bet you only got the job because you put you're a kmc champion on that resume! or was it digi's reference letter??
only because he showed great scope with his global tp. but as i showed repeatedly, scope does not translate to depth.
i'm not really disagreeing with this assessment. i showed it TO demonstrate that even the SCOPE of his powers were equal to cable's. in fact the bullet feat showed a greater scope of power than anything cable did imo. reread that feat from one of my first posts. it was in deep space when he summoned it and he brought it all the way to earth at nearly the speed of light after simply memorizing the unique metals in kitty's phased body.
and he did this while he set up all his shields--even psychic shields that according to emma were "practically impregnable". an absolutely amazing feat by ANY measure.
i know smurph has said this a bunch of times--and i would too were i him since there is such a dearth of feats to call upon--but again, this battle was never for a second in doubt. he blasted ss away once and that was it then ss tired of it and one-shotted him. does anyone really think that had he stopped holding up that island (something he did while SLEEPING) would have made ANY difference in the fight? really?
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
hmm, i'd say his battle--and VICTORY--against proteus would be AT LEAST the equal of cable's fruitless effort against the ss.....
much thanks, again, to phil. while weakened. the greatest thing about that battle? proteus was a PURELY psychic being (of immense power) and he was unable to take possession of mags with his psychic powers.
if you don't know proteus, here is a quick link that give a brief rundown of his powers:
a wiki, but feel free to fact check. he was a reality warper and has massive psi powers. mags' handling of proteus was every bit as 'impressive' as cable's getting one-shotted by ss was.
nah, that was just a bonus. and the cable that mags ripped apart ALSO used his tk on that arm his whole life..... didn't help much.
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
logan's healing factor is pretty good too, but we all saw what happened when mag's ripped the ADAMANTIUM out of him. logan nearly died from that. and logan even has actual FEATS! heh cable's use of the hf was to keep his virus in check while he used his full power. as far as anyone knows, that was all it really did. he got a NOSEBLEED from stopping some missiles. and that healing factor CERTAINLY didn't do much of anything at all to help the mess that the ss left him in......
the hf was TAXED to the limit and we never saw even a SINGLE feat from it. to say it worked on cable like it did on deadpool is....ridiculous. and the fact that it was basically a footnote to smurph's argument shows that even he has no faith in that particular line of reasoning. something like that requires at least SOME on panel proof. the hf has exactly ZERO feats aside from allowing him to USE his powers for longer periods of time, we cannot pretend to be able to judge how it would have worked for cable. lack of proof and feats MUST have an impact at some point.
logan regenerated from a skeleton. didn't help him. didn't save him from being one-shotted by ss.
and that is about it.
so let's do a quick recap and sum up:
cables's tp--we've seen mag's is capable of creating a practically impregnable defense if focused. his helmet currently grants greater protection than it ever has (thank you movie mags!). he's a latent psychic and has one of the premiere wills in comics. he has defeated and resisted some of the greatest minds in comics and xavier has more and better ON PANEL feats than cable does. no limits fallacy not withstanding, i see no way cable can take this with his tp. again, if you feel he can, he needs to so quickly and so utterly overwhelm mags that he has NO CHANCE to retaliate by taking advantage of cable's numerous vulnerabilities. and given mag's own feats and defenses against tp, there is NO evidence to suggest he is capable of that kind of overwhelming assault.
cable's tk--even smurph barely touched on this because he knows his tk vs my shields is a no-win for him and mag's shields have stopped uber tk in the past (the phoenix battle is just one of the more famous examples). his tk is essentially neutered here, and given that smurph's whole focus lay on tp, (by his own admission) it's obvious smurph agrees with me.
sooooooo....... that leaves tp or nothing. he's essentially putting all his chips on his global tp feat and that single scan of emma sweating, and commenting that her shields were barely holding while she was NOT wearing cerebra. that is simply NOT enough to go on given the level of cable's opponent and his many many feats.
otoh, magneto has a variety of offensive avenues to choose from. the easiest and surest way is to simply attack cable's obvious vulnerabilities--namely his metal body or the t-o virus that courses through his body. both can be used to utterly devastating effect. he could attempt a shut down of cable's powers like he did to all the x-men, xavier included, by controlling the iron in cable's blood. he could literally PULL all the blood from his body, or institute a cerebral hemorrage. he can call upon the battlefield to assist him if need be and open a crevice to the mantle and cause a volcano, or use the dust to blind or distract. if he can get cable to drop his shield for an instant the dust could be devastating. he could attempt a wormhole and force cable through it into the iron core of the moon. he could turn invisible (his helmet should render him psi invisible as well, at least for a short time) and he could do damage that way. there are other courses, but you get the message. cable is limited to his tp. mags has dozens of ways to win this match.
intuition can inferred power can only carry one so far. on panel feats and their dearth must play the dominant role in these debates. in that area, mags is overwhelmingly superior.
thanks for taking time to read through this and thanks to smurph for (what i hope) was an entertaining match up.
Smurph, you did me no favors trying to judge this. Your character is probably more powerful. God-Cable's implied power is off the charts. It's just hard to prove that with so few "God" feats, and not knowing how expended he was when he fought Surfer. Cable's a good pick, it's just frustrating from my perspective.
Leo won the TP discussion in my mind. You guys went on about it for a while, probably too long, but proving that it would constitute a win or a big hindrance is a taller order than proving that Magneto has enough defense against it to remove it as a deciding factor. Everyone mentioned has uber feats, and Chuck's been around long enough to have bad ones as well (same with Magneto), but the whole "Is Nate > Charles" became a moot point to me once it was established that they're both very uber, and comparative analyses are somewhat arbitrary.
Outside of that protracted discussion, I'm a little unclear how either is planning to kill the other. If someone had gone more overtly offensive, they probably would have won it decisively.
Nate does have metal in him. When called upon, Magneto hasn't really shown limits to his nuance with EM manipulation when it's in his wheelhouse. Voting leo. Sorry Smurph. I promise I'm not voting against you on purpose. I appreciated the music video with your first post.
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Jun 15th, 2012 01:40 AM
