__________________ There are no contests in the Art of Peace. A true warrior is invincible because he or she contests with nothing. Defeat means to defeat the mind of contention that we harbor within.
- Morihei Ueshiba
See,the flaw in this is Zam making a 'good case' about anything from what I've seen of his arguments.
Caedus at that point lacked Palpatine's power, and never once surpassed him in it. You'll need a lot more than that sort of nonsense to make acompelling argument, or why Palpatine won't simply snap her neck, or burst a vessel in her brain with a thought. He is far more accomplished with the use of the force.
Well. We actually can only assume power difference between Jacen and Palpatine. It's more of a matter of believe. Yes, canonically Palpatine is the most powerful Sith but it doesn't seem that Jacen was much weaker. On the other hand Palpatine never showed versatility of Caedus during combat. Yes, Palpatine has deeper knowledge of the darkside but Caedus has learned loads of other techniques making him unique in his own way.
When Jacen's power is referenced it's said to have surpassed vader. Palpatine is another animal.
Based upon what? Jacen's combat feats aren't exactly the most versatile and impressive. Against Jaina, he didn't pull out anything particularly incredible. Against Kyle Katarn, he used basic telekenisis to win, and against Luke? Nothing particularly special, and Luke dominated him with the Force earlier that same book.
Palpatine didn't JUST know of the Dark Side, he knew a ton of other esoteric little things from the Nightsisters, the Sorcerers of Tund, etc.
And again, this is almot irrelevant as Caedus did not hit his true power until after he took the name Caedus. Mara fought tactically, but frankly, we know Palpatine can crush you with the Force without making a motion of his limbs, and he is more likely to do that than engage you in a saber duel
Registered: May 2010
Location: No clue. Looks.... Blue?
I agree with Lightsnake there. In fact, I believe Palpatine gave every Force Religion a choice: Join him, or be destroyed. In either case, he studied their teachings. Thats part of what makes him so dangerous, he has more knowledge than just about anybody else.
And we know that Vader wasn't far behind Palpatine.
Caedus combat feats aren't exactly the most versatile and impressive? Ok, it is your right to believe in it. As for Luke's first encounter with Caedus, he caught him off guard. In the middle of the fight Luke never did anything like that even against inferior opponents.
And how many of those he utilized in combat? Let's compare versatility of Sidious and Jacen.
Sidious vs strike team - lightsaber only, not a single Force push, not a single kick.
Jacen vs strike team - opponents utilized battle-meld, which puts him at higher disadvantage. Was using TK cleverly and was Force pushing opponents into each other. Was constantly analyzing surroundings and caught the strongest Jedi off guard, while other three were still alive.
Sidious vs Yoda - lightning, sabers, a few platforms and again lightning.
Jacen vs Mara - got injured by stone avalanche and got his leg crippled, yet, still survived and continued fighting. Constantly used TK, was blocking her lightsaber with Force barrier, while grappling with her. Tried to paralyze her spine, used illusion and finally poison dart. I am yet to see any character in entire mythos to display more versatility than that.
Sidious vs Luke - both fights he used pure lightsaber combat, not a single Force push, not a single kick.
Jacen vs Luke - Got attacked from behind and crippled and still was able to fight. Body strikes, kicked Luke into ribs and later hit him in exact the same place, in other words utilized shatterpoint ability. Using surroundings: Force pushed Luke into vines, later again used vines to choke Luke.
Moreover, old Palpatine without lightsaber utilized lightning and occasional TK only.
It is clear that Jacen is much more versatile in combat, even, when he is badly crippled he keeps fighting and manages to utilize surroundings or some arcane abilities.
Did not hit true power until took the name Caedus? That's quite an assumption.
On practice Palpatine showed that he is more likely to engage in lightsaber combat.
In the fight, there wasn't much chance. They made it a close range one and Caedus was a dead man if not for Ben's interference.
Caedus might've been caught offguard, but he couldn't fight. and he knew if he did, he'd die. The text even states that all that kept him from death was Luke's sense of decency
Given he killed three of them near instantly, and his level of seriousness against Mace is...debatable?
Caedus lost an arm when he faced Jaina the first time. Against Luke, he was legitimately in fear for his life. Against Mara, he managed a single, desperate illusion...he was a split second's hesitation from getting killed and he knew it.
So...force push and TK?
Also, you're listing 'analysis of surroundings' as a force power here? Palpatine should pretty much dominate when it comes to strategy then.
the problem is, you're not listing me any of Jacen's amazing force abilities in combat, you're listing him using pretty basic maneuvers. A poison dart is not a force ability, and he used it because she was about to kill him.
I think you forget that Jacen himself said Ben saved his life.
and again, you're not showing me any diversity in Force powers.
Methinks TK plus force lightning against Yoda is about as 'diverse' as Jacen ever got
[SPOILER - highlight to read]: ask Maul and Savage how versatile Palpatine is, before he kills them.
And so is Jacen who reliably did so in every engagement he was in. Palpatine has a larger archive of abilities to draw from.
And in this instance, just ask Plagueis how likely he is to engage in saber combat...or Starkiller.
Outcome is irrelevant.
Caedus crippled Luke much more, than Palpatine after losing him.
The talk was about versatility. You claimed that Palpatine is more versatile in combat. Prove it.
Did you actually read that book? She shot his arm with rifle, so in their first fight he had only one working arm. And Luke was in heavy meditation empowering her. Moreover, she learned mandalorian fighting, which gave her element of surprise. So again we see Jacen at very strong disadvantage and he still handled her.
Luke attacked from behind and seared his liver. Mara hid in the Force and crippled his leg, then put avalanche of stone on top of him. In both cases Caedus was at heavy disadvantage right from the beginning. Thanks to his pain tolerance, which empowers him instead of weakening and versatility in use of surroundings, uncommon Force powers and other means.
I am giving examples of versatility. You said Jacen is not very versatile. Give me a single example of his versatility. He hasn't been shown to utilize a single uncommon power during combat. The most we see is pure lightsaber fencing and Force lightning. Throwing platforms is perhaps the only known feat of him utilizing TK.
Shatterpoints, paralyzing spine, illusions, getting empowered from pain - these are all uncommon abilities Sidious was never shown to possess. Your turn to list Palpatine's combat powers. Moreover he utilizes kicks and punches and uses surroundings a lot, which Palpatine, also, never showed.
List those abilites, please, and how they helped him in actual combat. .