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marvel cosmology
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leonidas
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hmm, just thought of something else. you've said that the realm of chaos and order is not part of the purview of 616 eternity. and yet, when adam went before the lt, eternity says that he represents all there is in the universe and adam says that some of the most powerful beings in the universe are present at the hearing. he also sets himself and eternity beyond all others present. so you think chaos and order represent those concepts in the 616, but do so from a place OUTSIDE 616--in your view that would mean outside eternity's realm/universe, no?

to me, their realm, like the concepts themselves, are simply part of 616 eternity.

you also said something similar as regards the demon realms--cyttorak's, dormmy's, hell, etc. but during the fear itself arc we saw all those demons come toegether in hell (which i think even you acknowledged--at least at one point) had some special relationship to the 616 universe. why would all these outer realms be concerned about what was happening in one universe when they have their own to concern themselves with? the gods (also different dimensions) showed something similar when they were in that giant tower thing that the lt built iirc.

to me, it all makes sense. ALL the realms i mentioned are part of eternity 616. just wondering how you reconcile all those things.


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Old Post Jul 4th, 2012 04:58 PM
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Endless Mike
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Well 616 is supposed to be the "keystone" or "core" reality, so it makes sense for people to be concerned about what happens in it.


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Old Post Jul 4th, 2012 06:46 PM
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Mr Master
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^^^ thumb up Sometimes there's concern for 616, like the Omniverse depends on it,
sometimes there are characters who don't care about 616's demise.

It really depends on the writers with this one nowadays.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas

you've said that the realm of chaos and order
is not part of the purview of 616 eternity.

I never said that. (that was back in the day when they the so-called "Magik universe")

Remember big G and in-Betwener ended up there after their fight.

Mistress Death, on the other hand does though.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas

you also said something similar as regards the demon realms--
cyttorak's, dormmy's, hell, etc. but during the fear itself arc we
saw all those demons come toegether in hell (which i think even
you acknowledged--at least at one point) had some special
relationship to the 616 universe. why would all these outer realms
be concerned about what was happening in one universe when they
have their own to concern themselves with? the gods (also
different dimensions) showed something similar when they were in
that giant tower thing that the lt built iirc.

Cyttorak, Dormmy, and any other Demon or Pantheon
are located in Pocket-Dimensions outside 616 but withIN the prime
Multiverse that houses the infinite alternate/parallel realities.

These Pocket-Universes
surround the infinite alternate/parallel worlds as well as 616.

I would actually have to re-read that "Fear' arc,
cause right now I don't recall jack.

So, I'll have to get back to ya.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas

to me, it all makes sense.
ALL the realms i mentioned are part of eternity 616.

I respect that. But according to Marvel Comics, that's not so.

The previous page explains that thoroughly true debater.


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Last edited by Mr Master on Jul 4th, 2012 at 10:35 PM

Old Post Jul 4th, 2012 10:31 PM
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leonidas
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how come you keep referencing pocket dimensions for the likes of mephisto et al,? i'm not sure the dark dimension could have classified as pocket, nor the crimson cosmos. in fact, collectively (including hel and even surtur's realm) have been referred to as splinter realms. so is it your belief that eternity holds no sway in these other dimensions?

and how are you defining prime multiverse? what is outside your prime multiverse?

re: order/chaos. so you think they exist withIN the 616 universe? or they have a realm outside 616 and represent 616 from their outside realm? are order and chaos part of eternity imo?


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Last edited by leonidas on Jul 5th, 2012 at 05:12 PM

Old Post Jul 5th, 2012 05:09 PM
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Mr Master
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas

how come you keep referencing pocket dimensions for the likes of mephisto et al,?

i'm not sure the dark dimension could have classified as pocket,
nor the crimson cosmos.

Leo, good friend, you know me. smile

(please log in to view the image)


Notice how he says ... "that surround Man's World" ...

That's directly from the explanation from the prior page.

In the other On panel instance with Dr Strange,
where they're describing the Multiverse thoroughly in detail,
they said the "Pocket-Universes/Dimensions"
surround the center of the Infinite alternate universes.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas

so is it your belief that eternity holds no sway in these other dimensions?

I did say they are part of the Multiverse of infinite alternate universes.

Eternity showed up in Nightmare's pocket-dimension and smacked em up.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas

and how are you defining prime multiverse?
what is outside your prime multiverse?

I defined it as clearly as I could via the "Infinite Spectrum" analogy.

I wish I could take credit for such understanding poetic harmony,
but actually those are mostly Roy Thomas & RJM Lofficer's words,
which are the writers of that Dr Strange issue.

(scans later cause I gotta dig)

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas

what is outside your prime multiverse?

Other MultiverseS.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas

re: order/chaos.
so you think they exist withIN the 616 universe?
or they have a realm outside 616 and represent 616 from their outside realm?
are order and chaos part of eternity imo?

Leo, I never mentioned them, but I can address this again.

Order & Chaos used to reside in the so called "Magick Universe."

It was the Universe Galactus and the In-Betweener ended up in
when they battled in that SS issue:

[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12465098_Chaos_Mag.jpg]

[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12465099_Chaos_Magick2.jpg]

[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/12465100_Chaos_Magick3.jpg]

As far as I know, that's still in-affect.



Order & Chaos have been depicted hanging out with Eternity,
but their "Magick Realm" is still referenced in their bio:

(OHotMU - 2008)

(please log in to view the image)


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Last edited by Mr Master on Jul 5th, 2012 at 10:58 PM

Old Post Jul 5th, 2012 10:43 PM
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Mr Master
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The analogy from the previous page with the scans. smile

================================


Look at it this way.

The Multiverse is an infinite spectrum.

At the center of this spectrum is the prime Reality Eternity-616 (Man's Universe or the Earth Universe)
and surrounding 616 are the Infinity of Alternate Eternitys/Universes as well.

(All of these Universes (616 & Alternates) share the same 3 Spatial Dimensions
and obey roughly the same natural laws.

Let's call that bunch the "center group" ...

Now ...

As you move away from that "center group" you bump into OTHER UniverseS,
which still have 3 Spatial Dimensions but where natural laws may be different.
Like the Negative Zone or the Reality of Arkon's Pole Machus amongst others.

Now ...

As you move further outward you bump into "Pocket UniverseS."
These Realities are home to the Patheons as well as Demons like Mephisto,
also Mystical deities and entities of significant power.

(you can access these realm easily via inter-dimensional portals but that doesn't mean they're next door.)

Now ...

As you move even further outward you bump into other UniverseS
with a # of Spacial Dimensions which is senseless. These Realities looked warped to 3 D senses.
Out here there's Universes like:
Tiboro's Sixth Dimension,
Tazza's Domain
or Nightmares' Dream-verse
and even Dormy's Dark Dimension.

All these Universes are subject to a commonality of concepts.

Hence ... the Prime Multiverse that houses the 616 Eternity/Universe.

+++++

That's about it, that's where the Prime Mutliverse in it's entirety ends,
and where the rest of the Omniverse begins.


================================


According to Dr Strange's explanation on panel with artistic images of this explanation.

(below)

================================


(please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image)


This gives the above more substance, and it's all I'm gonna do cause imo it's enough.

In the scans above,
you notice Nightmare's Universe is WAY outside not only 616,
but even further outside than the Pocket Universes of the Demons/Pantheons
in relation to distance from the center where the infinite Alternate UniverseS
surround the 616 Universe.
It's in the company of the 6th Dimension.

Well, within an actual story, I have Dweller clarifying/supporting that,
actually, it's even higher ... on panel:

(please log in to view the image)

"Nightmare ... we both come from Everinnye, a Universe higher than the Sixth Dimension."


(from the perfect reference chart above,
this Universe should be at the border of the Multiverse,
WAAAAY outside 616
and even the clump of Infinite Alternate UniverseS surrounding the 616 Universe)


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Last edited by Mr Master on Jul 5th, 2012 at 11:41 PM

Old Post Jul 5th, 2012 11:26 PM
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leonidas
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bump in case anyone else feels like weighing in with an opinion or feels like chatting about changes they think are taking place.....like skyfather's being able to end the multiverse.... shifty


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Old Post Jun 12th, 2013 08:58 PM
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JakeTheBank
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I never understood why people get so agitated about beings doing things outside their alleged sphere of influence in the grand scope of things as far as tier hierarchy.

If it serves the story...why does it matter?

And as far as a battleboard/feat mentality goes...feats are feats and on-panel evidence is on-panel evidence.

Virtually every character ever has their "average" and then has their moments when they go above and beyond said average. It's how the medium of comics, specifically superhero ones, work.


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Old Post Jun 13th, 2013 01:29 AM
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Endless Mike
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Here's my attempt at a map: http://i.imgur.com/DfOnxdP.jpg


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Old Post Jun 13th, 2013 10:22 PM
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TheGodKiller02
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^Why are the infinity gems in the omniverse category?


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Old Post Jun 14th, 2013 01:00 PM
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Endless Mike
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Based on the Malibu/Rune arc, I think.


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Old Post Jun 16th, 2013 02:19 AM
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TheGodKiller02
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Based on the Malibu/Rune arc, I think.

Standalone. Ever since then, it has been solidly confirmed that the Infinity Gems are restricted to their native universe.


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Old Post Jun 16th, 2013 12:56 PM
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basilisk
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
Order & Chaos have been depicted hanging out with Eternity,
but their "Magick Realm" is still referenced in their bio:

I just like how Lord Chaos and Master Order are like best buds - always hanging out together, doing stuff together, making things together, concerned for each other's well-being. Seem to agree on most things. Not bad for complete opposites. Maybe they feel some sort of kinship because they are both just floating heads and one is a deformed fugly and the other one is bald and has no ears.

Old Post Jun 16th, 2013 03:20 PM
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Endless Mike
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Standalone. Ever since then, it has been solidly confirmed that the Infinity Gems are restricted to their native universe.


Fairly certain Thanos' comments in the original IG saga and The End kind of contradict that. MrMaster also has the IG pretty high up on the cosmic hierarchy. But of course the map is mostly my interpretation.


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Old Post Jun 17th, 2013 04:17 AM
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TheGodKiller02
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Fairly certain Thanos' comments in the original IG saga and The End kind of contradict that. MrMaster also has the IG pretty high up on the cosmic hierarchy. But of course the map is mostly my interpretation.

Not really. All of that was mostly hyperbole. Barring the Ultraforce incident, there has never been an actual demonstration of the Infinity Gems operating in a separate universe, or on a trans-universal scale. MrM's opinion has also been disputed by people like Leonidas, Galan007 and OneDumbG0. So it's not that clear cut.

Anyways, Thanos' comments should be taken with a grain of salt, especially when we're literally shown on-panel the universal limitations of the gems, when they got blown up just trying to push back another universe.


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Old Post Jun 17th, 2013 04:46 PM
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Endless Mike
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There's the fact an incomplete IG effortlessly deflected the multiverse-busting UN, the fact that the LT said Adam Warlock was a threat to all reality with it (whereas Thanos was content to mostly stay overlord of 616 so LT didn't step in) and the fact that LT said that if he and Warlock fought he couldn't easily win and all reality might be destroyed, the fact that the IG is clearly above beings that have multiversal feats, the fact Uatu said the IG was too powerful for Reed to be able to handle yet he had no problem with Reed using the UN, etc.

I think my position is well supported.


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Old Post Jun 18th, 2013 11:32 AM
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TheGodKiller02
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Endless Mike
There's the fact an incomplete IG effortlessly deflected the multiverse-busting UN, the fact that the LT said Adam Warlock was a threat to all reality with it (whereas Thanos was content to mostly stay overlord of 616 so LT didn't step in) and the fact that LT said that if he and Warlock fought he couldn't easily win and all reality might be destroyed, the fact that the IG is clearly above beings that have multiversal feats, the fact Uatu said the IG was too powerful for Reed to be able to handle yet he had no problem with Reed using the UN, etc.

I think my position is well supported.

OneDumbG0 explained why the IG deflecting away the UN's blast isn't a demonstration of multiversal scope of power. The LT/Warlock statement was also made in the Dimension of Manifestations iirc, and their battle would have been limited to that. Not to mention that Warlock knew, one way or another the IG would leave his person. What multiversal beings are you talking about, that were inferior to the IG? LOL, Uatu's statements aren't blatant truth. Ever since then, we have seen Reed's peers from the Council easily handle their universe's native IGs.

Per Hickman's work in Fantastic Four and New Avengers, your position has been thoroughly unfounded.


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Old Post Jun 18th, 2013 11:54 AM
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Mr Master
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by TheGodKiller

All of that was mostly hyperbole. Barring the Ultraforce incident,
there has never been an actual demonstration of the Infinity Gems
operating in a separate universe

You must be referring to Hickman's retconned IG.

Because even Magus with an Incomplete IG merged Two entire UniverseS (one of which was 616)
while sitting in another separate Actuality over 100 UniverseS away down the Nexus of Realities.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by TheGodKiller

OneDumbG0 explained why the IG deflecting away the UN's
blast isn't a demonstration of multiversal scope of power.

And because you agree with it he's right? (iyo perhaps)
quote: (post)
Originally posted by TheGodKiller

The LT/Warlock statement was also made in the Dimension of Manifestations iirc, and their battle would have been limited to that.

Wait,
so Warlock's 616 IG was functional in the Dimension of Manifestations?

Well, then, you're making a claim, then contradicting your own claim. (below)

---------------------------------------------------------------


The Dimension of Manifestations is Not withIN 616, Not part of 616,
in fact, it has No relation to 616 whatsoever:

(please log in to view the image)

"In a place that exists Beyond All Time & Space, that transcends All levels of Reality & Dream"

---------------------------------------------------------------


The Dimension of Manifestations is also considered to be the actual "Realm of the Cosmics"

(please log in to view the image)

---------------------------------------------------------------


The Dimension of Manifestations has also been called: "The Realm of the Living Tribunal"

(please log in to view the image)

---------------------------------------------------------------


So, you yourself have just submitted, the IG worked just fine Outside All of Eternity/Infinity!
and battling the LT would've destroyed what's considered home for em.

One should stick to their own interpretation/opinion good friend,
because being liked by a mod and writing pretty doesn't make one right.


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Last edited by Mr Master on Jun 19th, 2013 at 05:29 PM

Old Post Jun 19th, 2013 05:26 PM
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Digi
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I never understood why people get so agitated about beings doing things outside their alleged sphere of influence in the grand scope of things as far as tier hierarchy.

If it serves the story...why does it matter?

And as far as a battleboard/feat mentality goes...feats are feats and on-panel evidence is on-panel evidence.

Virtually every character ever has their "average" and then has their moments when they go above and beyond said average. It's how the medium of comics, specifically superhero ones, work.


I sometimes wonder what this forum would be like if everyone really internalized this point.


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Old Post Jun 19th, 2013 05:55 PM
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srankmissingnin
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
Because what the Tribunal says clearly implies that infinite universes already exist. What the Watcher says implies that for every action/event that unfolds, a universe us created. The Watcher's statement doesn't bear testimony to the "infiniteness" of the multiverse, while the Tribunal's does.

Deadpool's references are about as reliable as those of a deranged schizophrenic who goes about gunslinging and wearing a skirt in zoos. Since it was a standalone reference in a New Exiles comic, then how can we be sure that it is the prime reality? Because, going by that logic the universe which the Marquis of Death originated from can also be called the prime reality. There is sufficient evidence for 616 being the prime reality. That much is not up for debate,


That's not what he implies, he says there are infinite realities, the how and why of it is left out, you've imprinted some thing that isn't there onto the statement. Nothing Tribunal said even slightly contradicts The Watcher.

I'll give you that about Deadpool, but it is established canon that he knows that he is in a comic, and its established canon that 1218 is the reality making those comics. Everything that happens in Marvel happens because some writer made it happen, because they are comic characters. That is truth of our reality but its also the truth of the Marvel Multiverse. 616 isn't the Prime Universe, if it was ever said to be it's because someone in 1218 wrote it down. /shrug


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Old Post Jun 19th, 2013 10:19 PM
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