Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
hmm, just thought of something else. you've said that the realm of chaos and order is not part of the purview of 616 eternity. and yet, when adam went before the lt, eternity says that he represents all there is in the universe and adam says that some of the most powerful beings in the universe are present at the hearing. he also sets himself and eternity beyond all others present. so you think chaos and order represent those concepts in the 616, but do so from a place OUTSIDE 616--in your view that would mean outside eternity's realm/universe, no?
to me, their realm, like the concepts themselves, are simply part of 616 eternity.
you also said something similar as regards the demon realms--cyttorak's, dormmy's, hell, etc. but during the fear itself arc we saw all those demons come toegether in hell (which i think even you acknowledged--at least at one point) had some special relationship to the 616 universe. why would all these outer realms be concerned about what was happening in one universe when they have their own to concern themselves with? the gods (also different dimensions) showed something similar when they were in that giant tower thing that the lt built iirc.
to me, it all makes sense. ALL the realms i mentioned are part of eternity 616. just wondering how you reconcile all those things.
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
how come you keep referencing pocket dimensions for the likes of mephisto et al,? i'm not sure the dark dimension could have classified as pocket, nor the crimson cosmos. in fact, collectively (including hel and even surtur's realm) have been referred to as splinter realms. so is it your belief that eternity holds no sway in these other dimensions?
and how are you defining prime multiverse? what is outside your prime multiverse?
re: order/chaos. so you think they exist withIN the 616 universe? or they have a realm outside 616 and represent 616 from their outside realm? are order and chaos part of eternity imo?
Last edited by leonidas on Jul 5th, 2012 at 05:12 PM
Notice how he says ... "that surround Man's World" ...
That's directly from the explanation from the prior page.
In the other On panel instance with Dr Strange,
where they're describing the Multiverse thoroughly in detail,
they said the "Pocket-Universes/Dimensions"
surround the center of the Infinite alternate universes.
I did say they are part of the Multiverse of infinite alternate universes.
Eternity showed up in Nightmare's pocket-dimension and smacked em up.
I defined it as clearly as I could via the "Infinite Spectrum" analogy.
I wish I could take credit for such understanding poetic harmony,
but actually those are mostly Roy Thomas & RJM Lofficer's words,
which are the writers of that Dr Strange issue.
(scans later cause I gotta dig)
Leo, I never mentioned them, but I can address this again.
Order & Chaos used to reside in the so called "Magick Universe."
It was the Universe Galactus and the In-Betweener ended up in
when they battled in that SS issue:
Gender: Male Location: somewhere within time & space
The analogy from the previous page with the scans.
Look at it this way.
The Multiverse is an infinite spectrum.
At the center of this spectrum is the prime Reality Eternity-616 (Man's Universe or the Earth Universe)
and surrounding 616 are the Infinity of Alternate Eternitys/Universes as well.
(All of these Universes (616 & Alternates) share the same 3 Spatial Dimensions
and obey roughly the same natural laws.
Let's call that bunch the "center group" ...
As you move away from that "center group" you bump into OTHER UniverseS,
which still have 3 Spatial Dimensions but where natural laws may be different.
Like the Negative Zone or the Reality of Arkon's Pole Machus amongst others.
As you move further outward you bump into "Pocket UniverseS."
These Realities are home to the Patheons as well as Demons like Mephisto,
also Mystical deities and entities of significant power.
(you can access these realm easily via inter-dimensional portals but that doesn't mean they're next door.)
As you move even further outward you bump into other UniverseS
with a # of Spacial Dimensions which is senseless. These Realities looked warped to 3 D senses.
Out here there's Universes like:
Tiboro's Sixth Dimension,
or Nightmares' Dream-verse
and even Dormy's Dark Dimension.
All these Universes are subject to a commonality of concepts.
Hence ... the Prime Multiverse that houses the 616 Eternity/Universe.
That's about it, that's where the Prime Mutliverse in it's entirety ends,
and where the rest of the Omniverse begins.
According to Dr Strange's explanation on panel with artistic images of this explanation.
This gives the above more substance, and it's all I'm gonna do cause imo it's enough.
In the scans above,
you notice Nightmare's Universe is WAY outside not only 616,
but even further outside than the Pocket Universes of the Demons/Pantheons
in relation to distance from the center where the infinite Alternate UniverseS
surround the 616 Universe.
It's in the company of the 6th Dimension.
Well, within an actual story, I have Dweller clarifying/supporting that,
actually, it's even higher ... on panel:
I just like how Lord Chaos and Master Order are like best buds - always hanging out together, doing stuff together, making things together, concerned for each other's well-being. Seem to agree on most things. Not bad for complete opposites. Maybe they feel some sort of kinship because they are both just floating heads and one is a deformed fugly and the other one is bald and has no ears.
Fairly certain Thanos' comments in the original IG saga and The End kind of contradict that. MrMaster also has the IG pretty high up on the cosmic hierarchy. But of course the map is mostly my interpretation.
Not really. All of that was mostly hyperbole. Barring the Ultraforce incident, there has never been an actual demonstration of the Infinity Gems operating in a separate universe, or on a trans-universal scale. MrM's opinion has also been disputed by people like Leonidas, Galan007 and OneDumbG0. So it's not that clear cut.
Anyways, Thanos' comments should be taken with a grain of salt, especially when we're literally shown on-panel the universal limitations of the gems, when they got blown up just trying to push back another universe.
There's the fact an incomplete IG effortlessly deflected the multiverse-busting UN, the fact that the LT said Adam Warlock was a threat to all reality with it (whereas Thanos was content to mostly stay overlord of 616 so LT didn't step in) and the fact that LT said that if he and Warlock fought he couldn't easily win and all reality might be destroyed, the fact that the IG is clearly above beings that have multiversal feats, the fact Uatu said the IG was too powerful for Reed to be able to handle yet he had no problem with Reed using the UN, etc.
OneDumbG0 explained why the IG deflecting away the UN's blast isn't a demonstration of multiversal scope of power. The LT/Warlock statement was also made in the Dimension of Manifestations iirc, and their battle would have been limited to that. Not to mention that Warlock knew, one way or another the IG would leave his person. What multiversal beings are you talking about, that were inferior to the IG? LOL, Uatu's statements aren't blatant truth. Ever since then, we have seen Reed's peers from the Council easily handle their universe's native IGs.
Per Hickman's work in Fantastic Four and New Avengers, your position has been thoroughly unfounded.
That's not what he implies, he says there are infinite realities, the how and why of it is left out, you've imprinted some thing that isn't there onto the statement. Nothing Tribunal said even slightly contradicts The Watcher.
I'll give you that about Deadpool, but it is established canon that he knows that he is in a comic, and its established canon that 1218 is the reality making those comics. Everything that happens in Marvel happens because some writer made it happen, because they are comic characters. That is truth of our reality but its also the truth of the Marvel Multiverse. 616 isn't the Prime Universe, if it was ever said to be it's because someone in 1218 wrote it down. /shrug
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