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marvel cosmology
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leonidas
MWHAHAHAHA!

Gender: Male
Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
You must be referring to Hickman's retconned IG.

Because even Magus with an Incomplete IG merged Two entire UniverseS (one of which was 616)
while sitting in another separate Actuality over 100 UniverseS away down the Nexus of Realities.

And because you agree with it he's right? (iyo perhaps)

Wait,
so Warlock's 616 IG was functional in the Dimension of Manifestations?

Well, then, you're making a claim, then contradicting your own claim. (below)

---------------------------------------------------------------


The Dimension of Manifestations is Not withIN 616, Not part of 616,
in fact, it has No relation to 616 whatsoever:

(please log in to view the image)

"In a place that exists Beyond All Time & Space, that transcends All levels of Reality & Dream"

---------------------------------------------------------------


The Dimension of Manifestations is also considered to be the actual "Realm of the Cosmics"

(please log in to view the image)

---------------------------------------------------------------


The Dimension of Manifestations has also been called: "The Realm of the Living Tribunal"

(please log in to view the image)

---------------------------------------------------------------


So, you yourself have just submitted, the IG worked just fine Outside All of Eternity/Infinity!
and battling the LT would've destroyed what's considered home for em.

One should stick to their own interpretation/opinion good friend,
because being liked by a mod and writing pretty doesn't make one right.


well, i for one am a bit puzzled by the scans. i didn't see a mention of the DoM anywhere in the dormmy or protege scans, soooo....how do you figure that dormmy, protege were actually in the DoM?

@srank: look at you in the cosmic end of the swimming pool! logan must have f'd up the multiverse some where.... laughing out loud


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Old Post Jun 20th, 2013 12:15 AM
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TheGodKiller02
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@MrM: I'll get back to you when I have the time.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
That's not what he implies, he says there are infinite realities, the how and why of it is left out, you've imprinted some thing that isn't there onto the statement. Nothing Tribunal said even slightly contradicts The Watcher.

I'll give you that about Deadpool, but it is established canon that he knows that he is in a comic, and its established canon that 1218 is the reality making those comics. Everything that happens in Marvel happens because some writer made it happen, because they are comic characters. That is truth of our reality but its also the truth of the Marvel Multiverse. 616 isn't the Prime Universe, if it was ever said to be it's because someone in 1218 wrote it down. /shrug

Because the how and the why is relevant to him declaring a specific fact(that infinite realities already exist). Again, what the Watcher says(and I am making this claim based on a trust of your paraphrasing here) is clearly limited to how divergent futures end up getting created, and if we go by your logic that the multiverse is infinite simply because divergent futures already exist, then that presents a logical problem. On the other hand, what the Tribunal states very clearly focuses upon the already existing infinite variants of Earth-616.

It is also established canon that he's crazy as a methjunkie though. It's also established canon that 616 is the prime reality as well. Even if we take the existence of Earth-1218 at face value from a standalone reference in a single comic, look at it this way: the comic book writers(aka Marvel's TOAA), of that universe have also written 616 to be the prime reality of the multiverse, in a number of different stories, and alluded it to be the case on other stories. Once you read things from this perspective, everything will become a lot clearer, and you'll realize why 616 being the prime reality makes sense, and how those 7 futures being prime timelines is also a (unique)fact.


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Old Post Jun 20th, 2013 08:58 AM
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Mr Master
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas

well, i for one am a bit puzzled by the scans. i didn't see a mention
of the DoM anywhere in the dormmy or protege scans, soooo....how
do you figure that dormmy, protege were actually in the DoM?

Darn it Leo, they tell me I can sell sand in a desert at work, but yur one tuff cookie.
laughing out loud I love it though cause you make me work, and when I do I
sometimes discover things that I either never knew, overlooked, or didn't realize.

Cool. So I broke down my reply in two posts,
cause I didn't wanna clog it all in one.
I value your thoughts, and I'll accept your honest conclusion of my "evidence."

----------------------------------------------


The Dimension of Manifestations is known as the place where manifested Concepts
linger, it is a near Void, with only unassigned Fractals and past-
present M-bodies that have been and are manifested.
ie. If the LT or Eternity (or any other concept) is not manifested withIN reality,
then you'll find them in the Dimension of Manifestations. That's why Dormy went straight there.

Here's another instance where the DoM is referred to as the home of the Concepts:

"Dimension of Manifestations, realm of Abstract Entities"

(please log in to view the image)

But that aside, I have to prove this,
since unfortunately the Dormy scan didn't add the name of the
place, only its description which is that of the Dimension of Manifestations.
This Dormy scan is also a Void like the DoM as well.

That said ...

----------------------------------------------


First Leo,
I'd like to confirm that the place Beyonder/Protege-Eternity-LT & Hawkgod were,
was completely outside Eternity:

(please log in to view the image)

"In a place beyond All That Is"

----------------------------------------------

(please log in to view the image)

"and in that nether-region that Exists outside of All Reality"

----------------------------------------------


The Dormy scan which imo presents the DoM,
defines it as a "place that transcends all levels of reality and dream" ...

In these Beyonder/Protege scans this place is stated to be:

(please log in to view the image)

"In that realm removed from All things Real or Imagined"

----------------------------------------------


The DoM itself was depicted on panel as something not withIN Eternity:

(please log in to view the image)

"Eternity is shunted into Another Realm ... the Dimension of Manifestations"

----------------------------------------------


Continues below ...


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Last edited by Mr Master on Jun 20th, 2013 at 06:08 PM

Old Post Jun 20th, 2013 05:56 PM
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Mr Master
Senior Member

Gender: Male
Location: somewhere within time & space

++++++++++++++++++++


So I proved Eternity, the LT and Hawkgod are outside 616, outside anything really.

But where are they? In the Dimension of Manifestations?

From what I know? Yes! ... but ... You decide below.

++++++++++++++++++++


I have Quasar wanting to find the LT so he can talk to him,,
he didn't even think twice about before quantum jumping into the DoM:

(please log in to view the image)
(please log in to view the image)

"Dimension of Manifestations, a strange realm where bodiless beings assume form"

----------------------------------------------


So, Quasar goes looking for the LT's Present manifested M-body. (May 94)

Along the way,
he bumps into ...

Eternity, LT and Hawkgod - 31st Century manifestations, during the Protege madness,
when they converged to discuss the threat as presented in scans above:

(please log in to view the image)

(Protege first came around in #15 years ago, but the climax was March-June 94 coincidentally)

----------------------------------------------


Anyway,
soon enough Quasar just finds the Present manifestation of the Living Tribunal
just lingering like I said earlier:

(please log in to view the image)

----------------------------------------------


Finally, when scenes return to 616 the writer puts it as:

"Real Space" ........

(please log in to view the image)
(please log in to view the image)

.... since it's evident imo the Dimension of Manifestations is a strange place
removed from all things real or imagined,
which transcends reality and dream
.


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Last edited by Mr Master on Jun 20th, 2013 at 06:08 PM

Old Post Jun 20th, 2013 05:57 PM
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leonidas
MWHAHAHAHA!

Gender: Male
Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
++++++++++++++++++++


So I proved Eternity, the LT and Hawkgod are outside 616, outside anything really.

But where are they? In the Dimension of Manifestations?

From what I know? Yes! ... but ... You decide below.

++++++++++++++++++++


I have Quasar wanting to find the LT so he can talk to him,,
he didn't even think twice about before quantum jumping into the DoM:

(please log in to view the image)
(please log in to view the image)

"Dimension of Manifestations, a strange realm where bodiless beings assume form"

----------------------------------------------


So, Quasar goes looking for the LT's Present manifested M-body. (May 94)

Along the way,
he bumps into ...

Eternity, LT and Hawkgod - 31st Century manifestations, during the Protege madness,
when they converged to discuss the threat as presented in scans above:

(please log in to view the image)

(Protege first came around in #15 years ago, but the climax was March-June 94 coincidentally)

----------------------------------------------


Anyway,
soon enough Quasar just finds the Present manifestation of the Living Tribunal
just lingering like I said earlier:

(please log in to view the image)

----------------------------------------------


Finally, when scenes return to 616 the writer puts it as:

"Real Space" ........

(please log in to view the image)
(please log in to view the image)

.... since it's evident imo the Dimension of Manifestations is a strange place
removed from all things real or imagined,
which transcends reality and dream
.


cool. i get your reasoning regarding why you think they were in the DoM. just not sure WHY they would be. i agree though it makes sense. i'm less sure if you asked the writer that HE would say they were in the DoM. not sure all writers know about it.

i'm curious though--also seem to recall you saying/thinking that the beyond realm fit in much the same way that the DoM seems to fit. it was beyond all there is, etc.... it was also a white emptiness. how are you distinguishing between the beyond realm (ie--the one in that ff arc with the tva) from the DoM? is it simply that beings don't ever visit there?


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Old Post Jun 26th, 2013 05:33 PM
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Omega Vision
Face Flowed Into Her Eyes

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First rule of comics, Leo, there's always room for another vast infinitude beyond reality. Clever names for them might run out though.


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to him who loved them so.
Where the faint murmurs now dwindling
echo o’er tide and shore."

-A Grave Epitaph in Santa Rosa County, Florida; I wish I could remember the man's name.

Old Post Jun 26th, 2013 05:56 PM
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leonidas
MWHAHAHAHA!

Gender: Male
Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!

lol yeah, that's part of my issue with making assumptions about things like the above--just because it's big and white doesn't mean it is the same place as the other big white place. if only marvel would use names more frequently to create a little better sense of consistency....


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Old Post Jun 27th, 2013 12:05 AM
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Endless Mike
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Well this stuff is ostensibly beyond human comprehension, so of course it's going to be confusing and spark arguments, lol.


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Old Post Jun 27th, 2013 06:27 AM
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leonidas
MWHAHAHAHA!

Gender: Male
Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!

hmm, since some of this seems relevant to some recent discussion......bumpity-bump. smile


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Old Post Jan 2nd, 2014 06:18 PM
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leonidas
MWHAHAHAHA!

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
I learned yesterday that even Pocket-Realms are outside 616,
while I was under the impression that wasn't the case.


well, as i was going through the infinity arc, i came across this scan. i think it helps solidify my universes within universes theory:

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/10...q90/27/cq5c.jpg

"a failed pocket universe resting within an existing one...."

clearly 2 universes CAN co-exist within each other. that would also mean that eternity 616 represents at LEAST 2 universes--the negative zone and the 616 universe. a rather large piece of information imo, and one that seems to strongly support what i've been saying, no?


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Old Post Jan 17th, 2014 11:47 PM
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leonidas
MWHAHAHAHA!

Gender: Male
Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!

oh, and here is a link to a thread where much of this idea of eternity=a multiverse took place. not exactly the most....peaceful discussion ever, but, opinions make the world go round. and it WAS fun. laughing out loud

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...mp;pagenumber=6

I think looking back at that thread, coupled with the on panel proof that the negative zone IS within the 616 universe, proves incontrovertibly (despite handbook definitions that are used and misused over and over by writers) that 616 eternity is indeed multiversal in nature.

that definition of multiversal does NOT extend to ALTERNATE versions of 616 though. I see a series of eternities (each a multiverse unto itself) creating a larger TRUE multiverse. the terminology sucks, but it's the mess we're left with after looking at all the proofs. beyond the TRUE multiverse of alternates we have the omniverse (which also comes with varying definitions....)

if I could select terms, I'd use multiverse to represent eternity, MEGAVERSE to represent ALL eternities (all alternate eternities) and omniverse to include everything else. the fluidity of language is what causes all the doubt and blurred lines. I look forward to comments, disagreements or discussion on the topic.


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Old Post Jan 18th, 2014 03:56 PM
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leonidas
MWHAHAHAHA!

Gender: Male
Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!

another link to yet another interesting thread relating to marvel's cosmology.....

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...10#post14597200


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Old Post Jan 19th, 2014 02:19 PM
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Mr Master
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas

on panel proof that the negative zone IS within the 616 universe

I disagree.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Panel: (from Four separate arcs across the years)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

(please log in to view the image)

"... is not of This Universe" (616) "... this body origins in, the Negative Zone"

----------------------

(please log in to view the image)

"Ben, the Negative Zone is an Alternate Universe"

----------------------

(please log in to view the image)

"Both UniverseS purged of life. This One (616) and the Negative Zone."

----------------------

(please log in to view the image)

"This Universe's (616) creature's are not like us" (from the Negative Zone) = another universe.

----------------------

(please log in to view the image)

"Our Universe" (616) "is expanding into the Universe Annihilus rules." (Negatve Zone)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Handbook Files:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


"In their home Dimension, the anti-matter realm the Negative Zone, space is constantly contracting,

while our own Universe
(616) expands from the Crunch."

(please log in to view the image)

(so the Two separate UniverseS even operate completely differently, besides that positive/negative matter joined = obliteration)

----------------------

(please log in to view the image)

"Annihilus learned that the positive-matter Universe (616) was gradually expanding into his anti-matter Negative Zone.

... Crunch, the energy surge that Separates the positive-matter Universe from its anti-matter counter-part
"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Handbook bio:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

(please log in to view the image)

"The Negative Zone is an alien Universe with different physical laws.

Reed learned that it was a different Universe.
"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


I also noticed you mis-interpreted the SW Beyonder scan.

Beyonder visited the Negative Zone but also the Microverse in his multiversal journey.

The Microverse was without question (even years prior in-fact) located in a Distant Universe, it was/is a Parallel Universe.

Therefore Beyonder travelled the actual infinite mulitverse of alternate relaities
and not some made up multiverse within the multiverse imo.


__________________

Last edited by Mr Master on Feb 11th, 2014 at 01:38 AM

Old Post Feb 11th, 2014 01:34 AM
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leonidas
MWHAHAHAHA!

Gender: Male
Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
I disagree.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Panel: (from Four separate arcs across the years)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

(please log in to view the image)

"... is not of This Universe" (616) "... this body origins in, the Negative Zone"

----------------------

(please log in to view the image)

"Ben, the Negative Zone is an Alternate Universe"

----------------------

(please log in to view the image)

"Both UniverseS purged of life. This One (616) and the Negative Zone."

----------------------

(please log in to view the image)

"This Universe's (616) creature's are not like us" (from the Negative Zone) = another universe.

----------------------

(please log in to view the image)

"Our Universe" (616) "is expanding into the Universe Annihilus rules." (Negatve Zone)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Handbook Files:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


"In their home Dimension, the anti-matter realm the Negative Zone, space is constantly contracting,

while our own Universe
(616) expands from the Crunch."

(please log in to view the image)

(so the Two separate UniverseS even operate completely differently, besides that positive/negative matter joined = obliteration)

----------------------

(please log in to view the image)

"Annihilus learned that the positive-matter Universe (616) was gradually expanding into his anti-matter Negative Zone.

... Crunch, the energy surge that Separates the positive-matter Universe from its anti-matter counter-part
"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Handbook bio:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

(please log in to view the image)

"The Negative Zone is an alien Universe with different physical laws.

Reed learned that it was a different Universe.
"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


I also noticed you mis-interpreted the SW Beyonder scan.

Beyonder visited the Negative Zone but also the Microverse in his multiversal journey.

The Microverse was without question (even years prior in-fact) located in a Distant Universe, it was/is a Parallel Universe.

Therefore Beyonder travelled the actual infinite mulitverse of alternate relaities
and not some made up multiverse within the multiverse imo.


well,you're free to disagree, but i hope it's not because of those scans......

all those scans are cool and everything, and i know all about the status of the negative zone, but..... not one of them refutes, in any way at all, what was said.

a universe WITHIN a universe. no one has said they aren't 2 separate universes, so.....? confused they are most certainly separate, parallels, whatever you want to say. no one is disputing that. your dispute is over it's LOCATION. it can be separate, but still WITHIN the universe, like a blood cell within my body. the 2 ideas are not mutually exclusive no matter how much you want them to be. the NZ may have once been thought to exist BESIDE our universe or something (makes no sense at a meta-spatial level, but whatever), but now it has been clearly shown and stated on panel by the builders (pretty powerful, certainly extremely knowledgeable multiversal travelers and creators...) that the NZ exists WITHIN our universe. which makes perfect sense to me, as that is precisely the theory i`ve postulated for years now. smile

as for the SW scan--fraid there`s no misinterpretation there either. i could show--again--the scan of ss SHRINKING to enter it. even if you don`t want to accept that, it doesn`t matter. clearly universes CAN exist within each other. the MICROverse`s entire PREMISE is that it is a tiny universe--relatively.

i`ve never understood your reticence regarding this reductionist model that i`m talking about, that has been stated to exist on panel by both a builder and kubik. the multiverse exists WITHIN the omniverse. eternity exists WITHIN a greater multiverse. why you refuse to believe universes can exist WITHIN universes is something i`ll never understand. the microverse in particular fits in perfectly with the reductionist idea. in a comicbook world, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to suppose a universe can`t exist within another universe. used to be you just never saw proof of it so wouldn`t believe. but now you HAVE your proof, stated clear as day, but just want to say it`s pis or something. the alternative (eternity ONLY represents one single, tiny universe) leads to soooo many problems (eternity=a tiny part of the greater nine worlds, anyone? lol), and ignores so much evidence. seems like a lot of effort to go to to not see something that is pretty clear imo. i don't think you're opinion will ever change for some reason, and while you're welcome to your thoughts, i don't know that there is really much reason to get into the topic with you again.


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Last edited by leonidas on Feb 11th, 2014 at 10:12 PM

Old Post Feb 11th, 2014 10:04 PM
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operator616
Senior Member

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
that has been stated to exist on panel by both a builder and kubik.


Actually, it's not just those 2 instances, there are several others (i agree with you that certain universes contain other universes)

Marvel has always established that fact (that universes can exist within universes).

Examples:

Here's a scan from the 1960s. Dr Strange v1 #171, where Strange enters the "realm of the unkown" and literally sees universeS within it:

http://i.imgur.com/gDJiY6t.jpg

"World within a world.......each tiny droplet contains a cosmos"

Dark dimension itself has multiple pocket universes in itself, Dr Strange v3 #22:

http://i.imgur.com/YxY0ngu.jpg?1

Heck, this was confirmed even in the 1960s as well (Strange tales v1 #126). Dr. Strange, while being in the Dark Dimension, goes to another dimension (while being inside the DD):

http://i.imgur.com/rE2aw5H.jpg

...Hence his comment: "worlds within worlds"

See this red thingy? That's a portal leading to another universe within the Dark Dimension.

That much is indisputable.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
-the scan of ss SHRINKING to enter it. even if you don`t want to accept that, it doesn`t matter. clearly universes CAN exist within each other. the MICROverse`s entire PREMISE is that it is a tiny universe--relatively.


the microverse is actually another universe separate from 616. I trust that posting a lot of scans (there's literally dozens of them) saying that won't suffice like in NZ's case (even though it should), but you also gotta understand that the shrinking process breaks the dimensional barrier between the Earth's and the microverse to get to it. So, the microverse is not within 616, it's separated by a dimensional barrier.

Like this, for example, from Micronauts v1 #35:

http://i.imgur.com/u0CyymD.jpg?1

"The spacewall, the barrier which separates the microverse from the earth and the larger macroverse"

Or here, in X-Men and the Micronauts #1, Charles literally says "my thoughts cannot breach the spacewall separating our dimensions from theirs":

http://i.imgur.com/Mbkq61Y.jpg?1

Or like in Cable v2 #39, Rann says:

http://i.imgur.com/HkEqCri.jpg?1

"spacewall separating out two dimensions"

There are lots of examples.

See, that's why shrinking, merely breaks the dimensional barrier instead of just transporting you into a tinier universe (2006 handbook):

http://i.imgur.com/idI3ASq.jpg?1

I understand that you think microverse being called "world within world" proves that it's within 616.....but everything else points otherwise.

smile

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
that the NZ exists WITHIN our universe. which makes perfect sense to me, as that is precisely the theory i`ve postulated for years now.


Okay, but apart from the countless instances where it's called as being a "parallel" or "another" universe (which honestly, should be proof enough)......how do you explain the fact that one has to travel through the distortion area (between realities)/Crossraods of Infinity to reach the Negative Zone? like in FF #51:

http://i.imgur.com/f7Gu6jS.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Y5b9PaD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/eNtNeaY.jpg

Or FF #251 (of course, there are other examples, as well):

http://i.imgur.com/wSFn1Pl.jpg?1

Just curious about your answer here. Because i honestly don't see a counter to that.

Remember That's also what the most recent evidence (more so than Avengers #21) shows. That right there massively contradicts your point.

I even recall that someone actually asked Brevoort (who was the editor of Avengers #21) on formspring about Negative Zone being a pocket reality or something, he kinda avoided the question....can't imagine why.

PS: Sorry, i know your response had nothing to do with me, i just couldn't help it. big grin

Last edited by operator616 on Feb 12th, 2014 at 01:28 AM

Old Post Feb 12th, 2014 01:18 AM
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Mr Master
Senior Member

Gender: Male
Location: somewhere within time & space

quote: (post)
Originally posted by operator616

Actually, it's not just those 2 instances, there are several others (i agree with you that certain universes contain other universes)

Marvel has always established that fact (that universes can exist within universes).

Examples:

Here's a scan from the 1960s. Dr Strange v1 #171, where Strange enters the "realm of the unkown" and literally sees universeS within it:

http://i.imgur.com/gDJiY6t.jpg

"World within a world.......each tiny droplet contains a cosmos"

Dark dimension itself has multiple pocket universes in itself, Dr Strange v3 #22:

http://i.imgur.com/YxY0ngu.jpg?1

Heck, this was confirmed even in the 1960s as well (Strange tales v1 #126). Dr. Strange, while being in the Dark Dimension, goes to another dimension (while being inside the DD):

http://i.imgur.com/rE2aw5H.jpg

...Hence his comment: "worlds within worlds"

See this red thingy? That's a portal leading to another universe within the Dark Dimension.

That much is indisputable.

Good points. Although I believe that all changed in the late 70's or early 80's. (then again, Strange writers were rogue)

Especially concerning the Microverse

(are there depictions that suggests there are Entire UniverseS withIN the 616 reality?) I never seen it.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by operator616

the microverse is actually another universe separate from 616. I trust that posting a lot of scans (there's literally dozens of them) saying that won't suffice like in NZ's case (even though it should), but you also gotta understand that the shrinking process breaks the dimensional barrier between the Earth's and the microverse to get to it. So, the microverse is not within 616, it's separated by a dimensional barrier.

Like this, for example, from Micronauts v1 #35:
http://i.imgur.com/u0CyymD.jpg?1

"The spacewall, the barrier which separates the microverse from the earth and the larger macroverse"

Or here, in X-Men and the Micronauts #1, Charles literally says "my thoughts cannot breach the spacewall separating our dimensions from theirs":

http://i.imgur.com/Mbkq61Y.jpg?1

Or like in Cable v2 #39, Rann says:

http://i.imgur.com/HkEqCri.jpg?1

"spacewall separating out two dimensions"

There are lots of examples.

See, that's why shrinking, merely breaks the dimensional barrier instead of just transporting you into a tinier universe (2006 handbook):

http://i.imgur.com/idI3ASq.jpg?1

I understand that you think microverse being called "world within world" proves that it's within 616.....but everything else points otherwise.

Okay, but apart from the countless instances where it's called as being a "parallel" or "another" universe (which honestly, should be proof enough)......how do you explain the fact that one has to travel through the distortion area (between realities)/Crossraods of Infinity to reach the Negative Zone? like in FF #51:

http://i.imgur.com/f7Gu6jS.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Y5b9PaD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/eNtNeaY.jpg

Or FF #251 (of course, there are other examples, as well):

http://i.imgur.com/wSFn1Pl.jpg?1

Just curious about your answer here. Because i honestly don't see a counter to that.

Remember That's also what the most recent evidence (more so than Avengers #21) shows. That right there massively contradicts your point.

I even recall that someone actually asked Brevoort (who was the editor of Avengers #21) on formspring about Negative Zone being a pocket reality or something, he kinda avoided the question....can't imagine why.

PS: Sorry, i know your response had nothing to do with me, i just couldn't help it.

thumb up ... I been on this ride before.


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Last edited by Mr Master on Feb 12th, 2014 at 02:08 AM

Old Post Feb 12th, 2014 02:06 AM
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Galan007
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Gender: Male
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by operator616
Actually, it's not just those 2 instances, there are several others (i agree with you that certain universes contain other universes)

Marvel has always established that fact (that universes can exist within universes).

Examples:

Here's a scan from the 1960s. Dr Strange v1 #171, where Strange enters the "realm of the unkown" and literally sees universeS within it:

http://i.imgur.com/gDJiY6t.jpg

"World within a world.......each tiny droplet contains a cosmos"

Dark dimension itself has multiple pocket universes in itself, Dr Strange v3 #22:

http://i.imgur.com/YxY0ngu.jpg?1

Heck, this was confirmed even in the 1960s as well (Strange tales v1 #126). Dr. Strange, while being in the Dark Dimension, goes to another dimension (while being inside the DD):

http://i.imgur.com/rE2aw5H.jpg

...Hence his comment: "worlds within worlds"

See this red thingy? That's a portal leading to another universe within the Dark Dimension.

That much is indisputable.
For me, Franklin's universe was the first thing that came to mind where this side of the debate is concerned:
(please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image)


We also saw the same type of thing from MJJ:
http://imgur.com/mZpHFSS
http://imgur.com/KQPg54j
http://imgur.com/JDvFfkx


But yeah there are dozens of other instances.


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Last edited by Galan007 on Feb 12th, 2014 at 03:04 AM

Old Post Feb 12th, 2014 03:02 AM
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Mr Master
Senior Member

Gender: Male
Location: somewhere within time & space

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007

For me, Franklin's universe was the first thing that came to mind where this side of the debate is concerned:

The Portal that leads to the Pocket Reality is withIN 616, but not the pocket-reality itself,
which is why everything changes into his world when he enters it.

The shape of the portal can confuse the reader I agree.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007

We also saw the same type of thing from MJJ:
http://imgur.com/mZpHFSS
http://imgur.com/KQPg54j
http://imgur.com/JDvFfkx

This has nothing to do with an entire universe, or any universe withIN the universe.

That's MJJ, who's warp allowed him to manifest as The Universe. (616)

Again, the doorway was nothing more than a gateway.

Anyway, flip further pages and MJJ is hovering over London still in
Eternity/Infinity-esk transparency/one with the skies/space.
Also, Sartunyne and Linda were conversing outside and reality was twisted.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007

yeah there are dozens of other instances.

I still haven't seen a single instance where there was an entire Universe withIN 616 or any other.


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Old Post Feb 12th, 2014 03:17 AM
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Galan007
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Nah, when Franklin created his first pocket reality it was housed inside of a blue ball, as you well know:
http://imgur.com/qSyt4Ic

That ball literally WAS the Heroes Reborn universe... And as its handbook entry confirms, that pocket reality was located "IN earth-616 dimension":
http://imgur.com/VtcUWd1
ie. a universe withIN a universe.

If you don't think Frank's second(more recent) pocket reality was also located "IN earth-616 dimension", then I find that somewhat silly considering we saw Franklin holding said universe under his sheets when it was in its infancy, before promptly stuffing it inside his closet:
http://imgur.com/c5qIVz2
http://imgur.com/h3vSF9w
Essentially Franklin's closet had now become what his blue ball was the first time--a universe. It is only logical to assume that Franklin's closet universe was [also] part of the 616 reality, just as his blue ball-verse was... Unless you think the closet universe inexplicably diverged from the 616 reality entirely, all by its lonesome..? If so, that's quite an accomplishment for a non-sentient universe.

Anywho, Ashema ultimately incorporated the Heroes Reborn-verse into herself, yet was still under the confines of Eternity:
http://imgur.com/XAY4xnO
http://imgur.com/s4XfN8d
http://imgur.com/qhP8C4o
ie. a universe existed withIN Ashema, who existed withIN the 616 universe. eek!


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Last edited by Galan007 on Feb 12th, 2014 at 04:05 AM

Old Post Feb 12th, 2014 04:01 AM
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Mr Master
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Gender: Male
Location: somewhere within time & space

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007

Nah, when Franklin created his first pocket reality it was housed inside of a blue ball, as you well know:

That ball literally WAS the Heroes Reborn universe... And as its handbook entry confirms, that pocket reality was located "IN earth-616 dimension":

ie. a universe withIN a universe.

Actually my friend, that's just the Planet Earth of the pocket-universe that was transported by Doom/Ashema into the 616 reality.

This is why it's located there now, in that bio at the time.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007

If you don't think Frank's second(more recent) pocket reality was also located "IN earth-616 dimension", then I find that somewhat silly considering we saw Franklin holding said universe under his sheets when it was in its infancy, before promptly stuffing it inside his closet:
Essentially Franklin's closet had now become what his blue ball was the first time--a universe. It is only logical to assume that Franklin's closet universe was [also] part of the 616 reality, just as his blue ball-verse was... Unless you think the closet universe inexplicably diverged from the 616 reality entirely, all by its lonesome..? If so, that's quite an accomplishment for a non-sentient universe.

If that's the actual pocket-universe under his sheets, then you can basically destroy it with a broom stick.
Imo, it's artistic portrayal for us the readers, this is why it's like a foot across.
I agree, it is a pocket-universe, but Franklin's ball and then closet are portals to his pocket-reality.
Like when people enter Eternity's M-body and end up withIN the actual Universe somewhere.
Eternity's "m-body" in Franklin's case would be like the blue ball/closet.

Again, imo and I'll leave it at that.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007

Anywho, Ashema ultimately incorporated the Heroes Reborn-verse into herself, yet was still under the confines of Eternity:
ie. a universe existed withIN Ashema, who existed withIN the 616 universe.

Bad-ass. Uatu contains a pocket-universe in his chest too.

I have a perfect Marvel explanation on this in marvunapp, they break it down better than I can.

*edit ... Celestials do operate outside of "Time" (Eternity) though. Like every time they pop up in the D of M, even though they're his "figments."


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Last edited by Mr Master on Feb 12th, 2014 at 05:20 AM

Old Post Feb 12th, 2014 05:13 AM
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