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marvel cosmology
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Mr Master
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas

no one has said they aren't 2 separate universes, so.....?
they are most certainly separate, parallels, whatever you want to say.
no one is disputing that. your dispute is over it's LOCATION.
it can be separate, but still WITHIN the universe.

no expression ... wait, huh?
quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas

as for the SW scan--fraid there`s no misinterpretation there either.
i could show--again--[u[the scan of ss SHRINKING to enter it[/u]. even if you don`t want to accept that, it doesn`t matter. clearly universes CAN exist within each other. the MICROverse`s entire PREMISE is that it is a tiny universe--relatively.

the microverse in particular fits in perfectly with the reductionist idea.

I'm not sure if yall all know this, but I'll throw it in just in case.

Beyonder was traveling the one and only infinite Marvel Multiverse of the time.

Beyonder was exploring - but his main objective was to find Bruce Banner.
Beyonder, while sitting in 616, with his cosmic awareness noticed Bruce in despair,
who was in the "CrossRoads of Infinity"

The "CrossRoads" is a (Multiversal Nexus to the infinite Parallel/Alternate UniverseS)

The "CrossRoads of Infinity" is also located outisde 616!

Like all Nexuses!

This is why Beyonder had to step out of 616 to reach the Nexus,
and as he did, he explored UniverseS (pockets & also dimensions which are infinite like the Micro-Cosmos)
then finally arriving at his destination WAY outside 616 ... the "CrossRaods."

Anyway ... Mantlo (writer) clearly states:

[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/14753389_B_explores_Multiverse1.jpg]

[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/14753390_B_explores_Multiverse2.jpg]

"Traversing the Myriad Planes" (realities)

[img=http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/14753391_B_explores_Multiverse3.jpg]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I could systematically prove everywhere Beyonder went on that page is outside 616, including the Pockets like Asgard.

But I don't need to do that, I just need to prove that ONE of those "Planes" (realities)
is outisde 616, and then ... that's it imo.

Microverse will do just fine for now.


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Old Post Feb 12th, 2014 01:23 PM
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Mr Master
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Location: somewhere within time & space

--------------------------------------------------------

There once was a time when the Microverse was thought to exist withIN the universe,
that idea was shattered On Panel yearS before Secret Wars I or II.

As far back as 1980!

--------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------


Hank Pym 1980 - (5 years BEFORE SW II) specifically targets this "realms withIN realms" notion:

(please log in to view the image)

"The thing is, the 'Worlds within Worlds' model we've been using NO longer works!

Violate the Plank Limit and you drop Out of This Universe and into Another Parallel One.

Which we call a MICRO WORLD
"


*** One of those "Micro-Worlds" he's talking about is the Microverse!

[img=http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/14773807_26.jpg]


I mean, seriously, that seals my argument as a prove fact. smile


But the Fantastic Four follow up on that in 1984.

An it also directly addresses your notion of "shrinkage" within the universe to enter the Microverse.

-----------------------------------------------


Reed Richards & FF - 1984 - (1 Year BEFORE SW II)

(please log in to view the image)

"This is the Microverse, hm? Isn't how I'd pictured walking on a sub-atomic particle."

"That's because you're NOT, ... we now know This is Extra-Dimensional Space" ...

"I thought we were shrinking?"

"We were, but that somehow Pops us through into a Parallel Universe. We call it the Microverse"


-----------------------------------------------


-----------------------------------------------


I remember one time the 616 Universe and the Microverse came close to touching too much,
it nearly cause the complete destruction of Both (as in Two) UniverseS.

Commander Raan and Dr Strange - 1981 - (4 Years BEFORE SW II)


It only takes a piece of the Micro-Cosmos (like the Microverse)
to touch 616 and it would obliterate BOTH UniverseS:

(please log in to view the image)

"The Microverse expanding - encroaching on the Space occupied by Earth.

But No Two objects or UniverseS can occupy the same place in Time
"

-------

(please log in to view the image)

"You would allow Two UniverseS to be destroyed"

-----------------------------------------------


This is because the Micro-Cosmos that contains the Microverse is a completely separate Alternate Universe that was re-created by The Makers:

Commander Raan - 1984 (1 Year BEFOR SWII)

(please log in to view the image)

"The Makers ... To have reshaped This Universe" (Micro Cosmos which contains the Micro-verse)
so it resembled the structure of life" ...


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Last edited by Mr Master on Feb 12th, 2014 at 01:36 PM

Old Post Feb 12th, 2014 01:26 PM
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Mr Master
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==========================


That should more than enuff, but back to the Beyonder and .... (Secret Wars II mis-interpretation)


==========================


Beyonder himself calls the Microverse A DISTANT UNIVERSE!

Beyonder noticed the Microverse when he went looking at UniverseS BEYOND UniverseS, before locating Bruce Banner.

... NOT Universes withIN Universes ... That's incorrect!


Beyonder (1985 - DURING SW II)

(please log in to view the image)

"I am from Beyond!"

"You sound like you're from Earth" (616)

"From There" (616) "I looked through the Worlds Beyond Worlds --
and saw This Distant Universe
" (Microverse) "was in trouble."



********* IS THIS TRUE? **********


Did Beyonder really look at UniverseS BEYOND UniverseS while sitting in 616
and noticed a DISTANT Universe called the Microverse in his journey?


yes ... back in the Hulk tie-in!


Beyonder sitting in 616 acknowledges there's more than just a Universe in Marvel
this is actually an infinite Multiverse of UniverseS:

(please log in to view the image)

----------------------

Beyonder went looking for Bruce,
who was WAY OUTSIDE 616 in Another Dimension called the "CrossRoads of Infinity"
located in the Neagtive Zone which is also located OUTSIDE 616. (remember Annihilation)

But he enjoyed the scenic view across the Myriad Planes (universeS)
as he traveled to the CrossRoads!

(please log in to view the image)

----------------------

Beyonder passes by the Microverse (A DISTANT Universe BEYOND UniverseS)
and off-panel noticed Scion's cry who told us in Micronauts V2 #16.

(please log in to view the image)


-------------------------------------------------------------


So ...

... Was the Micro-Cosmos that contains the Microverse a Parallel Universe Outside 616
during Secret Wars II published in 1985
?

...Was the Micro Cosmos an Alternate Universe from the infinity of the Multiverse
taken by the "Makers" and re-made in their liking into the Micro-Cosmos
during Secret Wars II published in 1985
?


YES!


According to:

Hank Pym 1980 - (5 years BEFORE SS II)

Reed Richards & FF - 1984 - (1 Year BEFORE SS II)

Commander Raan and Dr Strange - 1981 - (4 Years BEFORE SS II)

Commander Raan - 1984 (1 Year BEFOR SSII)

Beyonder (1985 - DURING SS II)

... and explicitly so every single issue AFTER Micronauts V1 #25 (1981)


-------------------------------------------------------------


I luvs ya L, but I'm done here my good friend.


__________________

Last edited by Mr Master on Feb 12th, 2014 at 01:30 PM

Old Post Feb 12th, 2014 01:27 PM
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Galan007

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
Again, imo and I'll leave it at that.
Great. I didn't expect you to change your opinion--that's why my initial post wasn't directed at you. I was simply responding to operator.


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Last edited by Galan007 on Feb 12th, 2014 at 03:23 PM

Old Post Feb 12th, 2014 03:16 PM
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operator616
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
Good points. Although I believe that all changed in the late 70's or early 80's. (then again, Strange writers were rogue)

Especially concerning the Microverse

(are there depictions that suggests there are Entire UniverseS withIN the 616 reality?) I never seen it.


You say good points......yet when i look at your next post, i see you completely disregarding them. Believe what you want, i know that my opinion is backed by on panel proof.

The pocket universes within the Dark dimension scan is from Dr Strange v3 (Sorcerer Supreme series) #22, 1990.

I remember in FF #550, when it was stated that a pocket universe was cut from Eternity (confirming that Eternity, the 616 universe, contains pocket universes):

http://i.imgur.com/Dug0nr7.jpg?1

Could it also be what Dr Strange v3 #54 (An Infinity Crusade Tie-in) was referring to, when it's stated that Eternity holds universeS in his hands?:

http://i.imgur.com/T5Vm4Ov.jpg

Because i really doubt that the Eternity who was portrayed in Infinity Crusade was intended to be multiversal (it directly involved the prior events such as Infinity Gauntlet and Infinity War) -- unlike in Defenders v1 #92, or throughout the Defenders v3 mini-series, or in the FF Annual 2001, or in Captain Marvel v5 (all of which, Eternity was confirmed to encompass the whole multiverse, as in 616 and all the fully functional alternate universes as opposed to pocket ones).

So now that i think of it.....it's possible....but also doubtful.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
For me, Franklin's universe was the first thing that came to mind where this side of the debate is concerned:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/177...00-092.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/177...00-093.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/177...00-097.jpg.html

But yeah there are dozens of other instances.


Hmm.....for some reason, it never occurred to me using Franklin's pocket universe as proof of universes existing within universes.

But yeah, i don't see why not. Portal or not, it doesn't matter, like in the Strange Tales scan, Doctor Strange goes through a portal within the dark dimension and ends in another universe, and he calls it a "world within world".....so imo, it's applicable.

This also reminds of Age of X, where we see an actual universe (embodied by Eternity) within a box:

http://i.imgur.com/TFm64dK.jpg

A universe within a universe, essentially.

And as you know, the pocket universes examples continue, we have Astonishing Thor #2, for instance, where we see Collector has a bunch of pocket universeS contained:

http://i.imgur.com/KPIlhal.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/LS8vssk.jpg

Or like Mr Master stated about Uatu containing a pocket universe in 1602 #8, etc...

Last edited by operator616 on Feb 12th, 2014 at 03:42 PM

Old Post Feb 12th, 2014 03:35 PM
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operator616
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Location: BTAS

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master


Hank Pym 1980 - (5 years BEFORE SW II) specifically targets this "realms withIN realms" notion:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/14781294/24.jpg.html

"[i]The thing is, the 'Worlds within Worlds' model we've been using NO longer works!



Yeah, but even after that, it was referred to as "worlds within worlds". Examples:

Alpha Flight (1998)

http://i.imgur.com/uJUge5r.jpg

Cable (1996):

http://i.imgur.com/HkTNkio.jpg?1

Which is why i responded to Leo, that everything else (being separated by dimensional barriers, and being continually called as a separate universe) points otherwise, even though it is referred to as such.

Old Post Feb 12th, 2014 04:08 PM
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Mr Master
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^^ thumb up ... That's weird, rogue idiot writers perhaps?
Well, maybe it's been changed again to being atomic universes. (although yur other scans contradict that)
Still ... it doesn't change the fact that during (and years before) SW II it was what I proved it was.

Therefore, the Beyonder scene where he walks the Multiverse, is the actual Multiverse (passes NZ-Micro-Crossroads)
and Not a multiverse within the universe, or Shooter meaning 616 was a multiverse.

I'm sure you'll agree to that at-least.

That was the whole point of me posting those irrefutable scans concerning the Micro-Cosmos during SW I-II.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by operator616

You say good points......yet when i look at your next post, i see you completely disregarding them. Believe what you want, i know that my opinion is backed by on panel proof.

I didn't disregard them, I believe I responded to that part of your post.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by operator616

The pocket universes within the Dark dimension scan is from Dr Strange v3 (Sorcerer Supreme series) #22, 1990.

I remember in FF #550, when it was stated that a pocket universe was cut from Eternity (confirming that Eternity, the 616 universe, contains pocket universes):

http://i.imgur.com/Dug0nr7.jpg?1

True that. Everything is withIN Eternity/Infinity.

I'm talking about universes withIN/Megred into the actual physical universe.

If it's somewhere withIN a single universe, then one wouldn't need to cross into another dimension, one could just travel there via distance.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by operator616

Could it also be what Dr Strange v3 #54 (An Infinity Crusade Tie-in) was referring to, when it's stated that Eternity holds universeS in his hands?:

http://i.imgur.com/T5Vm4Ov.jpg

Nah. Since those are "Whole" Universes with Pasts/FutureS and a Present.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by operator616

Because i really doubt that the Eternity who was portrayed in Infinity Crusade was intended to be multiversal (it directly involved the prior events such as (Infinity Gauntlet and Infinity War) -- unlike in Defenders v1 #92, or throughout the Defenders v3 mini-series, or in the FF Annual 2001, or in Captain Marvel v5 (all of which, Eternity was confirmed to encompass the whole multiverse, as in 616 and all the fully functional alternate universes as opposed to pocket ones).

So now that i think of it.....it's possible....but also doubtful.

I disagree opr. That was definitely a Multiversal portrayal in Infinity Crusade.

Remember good friend,
Eternity in that scene with Strange (Infinity Crusade) didn't give a rats ass about the 616 Universe.

Eternity called the 616 Reality ... "one Dimension ... an infinitesimal part of myself"

(please log in to view the image)

-----------------------------------

Actually, in three separate scenarios (involving Infinity Crusade) in 3 different books,
Eternity & even Infinity was/were portrayed not caring about the 616 Universe.

I already addressed the Strange scene, here's another with Eternity and Warlock:

(please log in to view the image)

-----------------------------------

Here's another with Eternity and Infinity plus Warlock again:

(please log in to view the image)(please log in to view the image)

-----------------------------------

Eternity/Infinity didn't care about the demise of the 616 Universe, but he did care about the Multiverse!

(please log in to view the image)

-----------------------------------

As you can see, if this was just a singular Eternity/Infinity and nothing else,
that verbal tone would be senseless. It's also obvious that the dialogue tells us
they are more than a single universe that may or may not contain "pockets."

You're a reasonable debater, I'm sure you'll agree even if you don't voice that, as I would.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by operator616

Doctor Strange goes through a portal within the dark dimension and ends in another universe, and he calls it a "world within world".....so imo, it's applicable.
This also reminds of Age of X, where we see an actual universe (embodied by Eternity) within a box:
http://i.imgur.com/TFm64dK.jpg
A universe within a universe, essentially.
And as you know, the pocket universes examples continue, we have Astonishing Thor #2, for instance, where we see Collector has a bunch of pocket universeS contained:
http://i.imgur.com/KPIlhal.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/LS8vssk.jpg

Or like Mr Master stated about Uatu containing a pocket universe in 1602 #8, etc...

Cool scans. The Dark Dimension is a special case I believe, because it's a
universe which merged a bunch of tiny pockets if I'm not mistaken. The DD
was a pocket itself I believe. I gotta flip pages on this so I'll be back on that.

I'll get that link to where its explained meticulously how these "pockets" work,
why it seems they're located within the universe when we see a ball, door, box, whathaveyou.

Although I'll submit, until I find the direct info to establish my point, I can't decisively explain away your scans.

You're interpretation may be correct. You don't believe this applies to all pockets though right?

That aside, ... from what I've known,
Pockets may seem to be in the universe but they actually occupy their own space, I know that's a fact.
This is true even if they're part of the greater Eternity/infinity.
Which is why you end up in another place when you enter one. (a place un-reachable via distance-travelling speed)


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Last edited by Mr Master on Feb 12th, 2014 at 07:59 PM

Old Post Feb 12th, 2014 07:53 PM
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TheGodKiller02
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Considering that a rogue planet was merged with the Earth recently in an issue of Avengers NOW, I don't see why the same can't hold true of universes.


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Old Post Feb 12th, 2014 08:05 PM
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Galan007

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by operator616
Hmm.....for some reason, it never occurred to me using Franklin's pocket universe as proof of universes existing within universes.

But yeah, i don't see why not. Portal or not, it doesn't matter, like in the Strange Tales scan, Doctor Strange goes through a portal within the dark dimension and ends in another universe, and he calls it a "world within world".....so imo, it's applicable.

This also reminds of Age of X, where we see an actual universe (embodied by Eternity) within a box:

http://i.imgur.com/TFm64dK.jpg

A universe within a universe, essentially.

And as you know, the pocket universes examples continue, we have Astonishing Thor #2, for instance, where we see Collector has a bunch of pocket universeS contained:

http://i.imgur.com/KPIlhal.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/LS8vssk.jpg

Or like Mr Master stated about Uatu containing a pocket universe in 1602 #8, etc...
thumb up


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Old Post Feb 12th, 2014 08:19 PM
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Mr Master
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Epicurus

Considering that a rogue planet was merged with the Earth recently in an issue of Avengers NOW, I don't see why the same can't hold true of universes.

Yea, I wouldn't be surprised if that were possible Nowadays.
Marvel has changed much, it's difficult to keep up with the constant flux with "life" as another priority lol.

But yea, I'm starting to realize leo, opr and myself are all wrong and right.
leo was right after all, there's too many writers/interpretations to neatly fit this into a perfect painting.

I've noticed books cater to their own ideas many times, even though they're all Marvel.
X-Men world, FF world, Dr Strange world, Britain/Excalibur/Exiles world and so on.

I know Leo gets what I'm saying here cause I think this is the foundation of his point, and he's right.

The debate is pointless, there are certain things that are of course concrete,
but in the cosmology aspect of comics, nothing's set in stone and worse yet,
things evidently change very quickly anyway. (at-least Nowadays for sure)
There was a more structured established understanding imo before,
it may not have been absolute, but it was manageable.

The debate from now on for me will depend on the writers type of usual story-line,
or book title rather, cause that says it all. That would give me an idea of what to expect from their interpretation.

Well anyway, bottom-line is we can add different points of views concerning different stories,
and if they add up that's great and will solidify a claim more,
but if not, if it's contradicted by another story/writer and still both make sense,
then it's just separate angles to look at the idea from.

Imo.


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Old Post Feb 12th, 2014 08:43 PM
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leonidas
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by operator616
Actually, it's not just those 2 instances, there are several others (i agree with you that certain universes contain other universes)

Marvel has always established that fact (that universes can exist within universes).

Examples:

Here's a scan from the 1960s. Dr Strange v1 #171, where Strange enters the "realm of the unkown" and literally sees universeS within it:

http://i.imgur.com/gDJiY6t.jpg

"World within a world.......each tiny droplet contains a cosmos"

Dark dimension itself has multiple pocket universes in itself, Dr Strange v3 #22:

http://i.imgur.com/YxY0ngu.jpg?1

Heck, this was confirmed even in the 1960s as well (Strange tales v1 #126). Dr. Strange, while being in the Dark Dimension, goes to another dimension (while being inside the DD):

http://i.imgur.com/rE2aw5H.jpg

...Hence his comment: "worlds within worlds"

See this red thingy? That's a portal leading to another universe within the Dark Dimension.

That much is indisputable.


thumb up

quote:
the microverse is actually another universe separate from 616. I trust that posting a lot of scans (there's literally dozens of them) saying that won't suffice like in NZ's case (even though it should), but you also gotta understand that the shrinking process breaks the dimensional barrier between the Earth's and the microverse to get to it. So, the microverse is not within 616, it's separated by a dimensional barrier.

Like this, for example, from Micronauts v1 #35:

http://i.imgur.com/u0CyymD.jpg?1

"The spacewall, the barrier which separates the microverse from the earth and the larger macroverse"

Or here, in X-Men and the Micronauts #1, Charles literally says "my thoughts cannot breach the spacewall separating our dimensions from theirs":

http://i.imgur.com/Mbkq61Y.jpg?1

Or like in Cable v2 #39, Rann says:

http://i.imgur.com/HkEqCri.jpg?1

"spacewall separating out two dimensions"

There are lots of examples.

See, that's why shrinking, merely breaks the dimensional barrier instead of just transporting you into a tinier universe (2006 handbook):

http://i.imgur.com/idI3ASq.jpg?1

I understand that you think microverse being called "world within world" proves that it's within 616.....but everything else points otherwise.

smile



Okay, but apart from the countless instances where it's called as being a "parallel" or "another" universe (which honestly, should be proof enough)......how do you explain the fact that one has to travel through the distortion area (between realities)/Crossraods of Infinity to reach the Negative Zone? like in FF #51:

http://i.imgur.com/f7Gu6jS.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Y5b9PaD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/eNtNeaY.jpg

Or FF #251 (of course, there are other examples, as well):

http://i.imgur.com/wSFn1Pl.jpg?1

Just curious about your answer here. Because i honestly don't see a counter to that.

Remember That's also what the most recent evidence (more so than Avengers #21) shows. That right there massively contradicts your point.

I even recall that someone actually asked Brevoort (who was the editor of Avengers #21) on formspring about Negative Zone being a pocket reality or something, he kinda avoided the question....can't imagine why.

PS: Sorry, i know your response had nothing to do with me, i just couldn't help it. big grin [/B]


well, the microverse issue, like the NZ as you guessed, is pretty easily explained away. hell, in the real world the quantum world has a different set of natural laws but yeah, i can easily see the microverse existing within 616 universe, like so many others can and do. but of course you'd need to pass some barrier to enter it, like you'd have to pass a barrier or dimensional wall to enter ANY other dimension/universe. we've also seen that reed has a simple door that opens to the NZ. rips in space lead to it. i'm....not really sure what you're asking me, or how the fact that the both the microverse and the NZ are lept apart from our universe by their respective barriers somehow implies they can't still exist within our universe? confused

ps--incidentally, i've only said i COULD see the microverse existing within our universe. i never really had much of an opinion if ot did. i DO think it has a place within eternity though, and at the heart, this is what the discussion has been about. i STILL say eternity 616 is a multiverse, comprised of many universes/dimensions outside JUST the earth 616 universe. i think mr m did a good job showing that the microverse probably is NOT within 616, but imo it IS within 616 eternity. even if you want to assume the NZ isn't within 616 either, that does NOT preclude it being apart of 616 eternity, imo.


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Last edited by leonidas on Feb 12th, 2014 at 09:12 PM

Old Post Feb 12th, 2014 08:59 PM
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leonidas
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Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
==========================


That should more than enuff, but back to the Beyonder and .... (Secret Wars II mis-interpretation)


==========================


Beyonder himself calls the Microverse A DISTANT UNIVERSE!

Beyonder noticed the Microverse when he went looking at UniverseS BEYOND UniverseS, before locating Bruce Banner.

... NOT Universes withIN Universes ... That's incorrect!


Beyonder (1985 - DURING SW II)

(please log in to view the image)

"I am from Beyond!"

"You sound like you're from Earth" (616)

"From There" (616) "I looked through the Worlds Beyond Worlds --
and saw This Distant Universe
" (Microverse) "was in trouble."



********* IS THIS TRUE? **********


Did Beyonder really look at UniverseS BEYOND UniverseS while sitting in 616
and noticed a DISTANT Universe called the Microverse in his journey?


yes ... back in the Hulk tie-in!


Beyonder sitting in 616 acknowledges there's more than just a Universe in Marvel
this is actually an infinite Multiverse of UniverseS:

(please log in to view the image)

----------------------

Beyonder went looking for Bruce,
who was WAY OUTSIDE 616 in Another Dimension called the "CrossRoads of Infinity"
located in the Neagtive Zone which is also located OUTSIDE 616. (remember Annihilation)

But he enjoyed the scenic view across the Myriad Planes (universeS)
as he traveled to the CrossRoads!

(please log in to view the image)

----------------------

Beyonder passes by the Microverse (A DISTANT Universe BEYOND UniverseS)
and off-panel noticed Scion's cry who told us in Micronauts V2 #16.

(please log in to view the image)


-------------------------------------------------------------


So ...

... Was the Micro-Cosmos that contains the Microverse a Parallel Universe Outside 616
during Secret Wars II published in 1985
?

...Was the Micro Cosmos an Alternate Universe from the infinity of the Multiverse
taken by the "Makers" and re-made in their liking into the Micro-Cosmos
during Secret Wars II published in 1985
?


YES!


According to:

Hank Pym 1980 - (5 years BEFORE SS II)

Reed Richards & FF - 1984 - (1 Year BEFORE SS II)

Commander Raan and Dr Strange - 1981 - (4 Years BEFORE SS II)

Commander Raan - 1984 (1 Year BEFOR SSII)

Beyonder (1985 - DURING SS II)

... and explicitly so every single issue AFTER Micronauts V1 #25 (1981)


-------------------------------------------------------------


I luvs ya L, but I'm done here my good friend.


sure, i'll buy that. but like i said to opr--that's doesn't imply it's not part of 616 eternity.

the heart of my issue with saying eternity compromises only on SINGLE universe has been exemplified wonderfully in the last page by you and opr. you're trying to decide amongst yourselves if the eternity shown was intended to be the 'multiversal' form or not.

well, that discussion seems....silly to me. we already KNOW, from on-panel evidence, that eternity comprises more than a universe. this was well before the concept of a multiversal/multi-eternity ever existed. EVERY eternity in existence is a multiverse unto itself, imo. ASPECTS of eternity represent individual universes/dimensions/realities, etc.... but each contains ONLY A SINGLE VERSION OF EACH REALITY THAT MAKES IT UP.

alternate eternities possess differing versions of many of the same dimensions.

now, take all the eternities (each a multiverse in itself) and look at the collective sum and you have the GREATER MULTIVERSE. that's why we can literally HAVE more than 1 multiverse. it also ends the debate about universal/multiversal eternity, and of course there is NEVER cause to mention multi-eternity, the entity that supposedly represents the entirety of the GREATER MULTIVERSE. and he should never be brought up, imo, as he has never made a definitive appearance in any book, ever. he was alluded to by cap universe, but there has never been anything else. to retroactively and, via reader discretion, ascribe appearances by eternity as being appearances by MULTI-eternity just never made any sense to me.

i think the idea of eternity as a 'minor' multiverse solves a LOT of inconsistencies. it also has the advantage of having a lot of support. for example--the eternity in the defenders mini--we know it was 616 eternity, because he referenced fighting dormmy in the past. he recalled it. we can do 2 things: one, assume this is a multiversal version of eternity who just....shares the collective conscious of the regular 616 eternity (that seems....needlessly complex imo, and requires speculation i'm not comfortable with), or, two, we just assume it is 616 eternity, the SAME one that fought dormmy and he is simply a multiverse. not THE GREATER multiverse, just A 'minor' multiverse, one in the grand scheme of infinite multiverses.

seems simple and clear to me.


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Old Post Feb 12th, 2014 09:25 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master

I still haven't seen a single instance where there was an entire Universe withIN 616 or any other.


the builder stated ON PANEL that the NZ is WITHIN the universe. it can't get much clear. the only way around it is to simply relegate it to pis or bad writing. imo, that is not at all necessary.


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Old Post Feb 12th, 2014 09:27 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
no expression ... wait, huh?


not sure how to be more clear. something CAN be separate from, yet still BE a part of a greater whole..... a virus is a part of me, yet still it is WITHIN me. it exists within me yet is still a separate entity....there are loads of cases to support the stance both in the real world and comic world....


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Old Post Feb 12th, 2014 09:30 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
Yea, I wouldn't be surprised if that were possible Nowadays.
Marvel has changed much, it's difficult to keep up with the constant flux with "life" as another priority lol.

But yea, I'm starting to realize leo, opr and myself are all wrong and right.
leo was right after all, there's too many writers/interpretations to neatly fit this into a perfect painting.

I've noticed books cater to their own ideas many times, even though they're all Marvel.
X-Men world, FF world, Dr Strange world, Britain/Excalibur/Exiles world and so on.

I know Leo gets what I'm saying here cause I think this is the foundation of his point, and he's right.

The debate is pointless, there are certain things that are of course concrete,
but in the cosmology aspect of comics, nothing's set in stone and worse yet,
things evidently change very quickly anyway. (at-least Nowadays for sure)
There was a more structured established understanding imo before,
it may not have been absolute, but it was manageable.

The debate from now on for me will depend on the writers type of usual story-line,
or book title rather, cause that says it all. That would give me an idea of what to expect from their interpretation.

Well anyway, bottom-line is we can add different points of views concerning different stories,
and if they add up that's great and will solidify a claim more,
but if not, if it's contradicted by another story/writer and still both make sense,
then it's just separate angles to look at the idea from.

Imo.


i agree with this, obviously. thumb up

really the only thing to try and do is find a solution that BEST fits most of the info. that's what i've been trying to do. for sh!ts and giggles. smile


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Old Post Feb 12th, 2014 09:32 PM
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Mr Master
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^^ thumb up

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas

well, that discussion seems....silly to me. we already KNOW, from on-panel evidence, that eternity comprises more than a universe. this was well before the concept of a multiversal/multi-eternity ever existed. EVERY eternity in existence is a multiverse unto itself, imo. ASPECTS of eternity represent individual universes/dimensions/realities, etc.... but each contains ONLY A SINGLE VERSION OF EACH REALITY THAT MAKES IT UP.
alternate eternities possess differing versions of many of the same dimensions.
now, take all the eternities (each a multiverse in itself) and look at the collective sum and you have the GREATER MULTIVERSE. that's why we can literally HAVE more than 1 multiverse. it also ends the debate about universal/multiversal eternity, and of course there is NEVER cause to mention multi-eternity, the entity that supposedly represents the entirety of the GREATER MULTIVERSE. and he should never be brought up, imo, as he has never made a definitive appearance in any book, ever. he was alluded to by cap universe, but there has never been anything else. to retroactively and, via reader discretion, ascribe appearances by eternity as being appearances by MULTI-eternity just never made any sense to me.

I don't really agree that every individual Eternity/Infinity is a multiverse unto itself,
but I can accept each individual Eternity/Infinity containing "pockets" somehow.
In Marvel, and I don't think that's ever changed, a/the Multiverse is an infinite number of individual whole/entire alternate-parallel/diverged UniverseS.

Imo, Eternity/Infinity 616 could be made up of galaxies/stars/planets and pockets.
Although I still don't think the pockets are located withIN the physical universe 616,
but in a limited sized carved out "pocket" containing its own space yet within 616 Eternity/Infinity.

Imo ... and that's about as far as I'll go.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas

i think the idea of eternity as a 'minor' multiverse solves a LOT of inconsistencies. it also has the advantage of having a lot of support. for example--the eternity in the defenders mini--we know it was 616 eternity, because he referenced fighting dormmy in the past. he recalled it. we can do 2 things: one, assume this is a multiversal version of eternity who just....shares the collective conscious of the regular 616 eternity (that seems....needlessly complex imo, and requires speculation i'm not comfortable with), or, two, we just assume it is 616 eternity, the SAME one that fought dormmy and he is simply a multiverse. not THE GREATER multiverse, just A 'minor' multiverse, one in the grand scheme of infinite multiverses.

I disagree with this good friend.

First, on panel we've seen an alternate Eternity speak about itself as though it was the Multiverse,
even though its physical matter was rubbed out of existence.
This alternate spoke about countless others that make up its Totality.
Then Strange references that comment and reasons that there are an infinite number of other UniverseS because of it.
"Other universeS" meaning Other Eternities ... since theirs (Strange/Surfer/Jean) was rubbed out.

This clearly means they all share the same consciousness. So they all know what they have all experienced.

That aside, the term "Multiverse" was used at-least 5 times,
and references to millions and tens of millions of universeS was mentioned,
on top of labeling the entire 616 universe as a little universe in comparison with what Umar had become.

So yea L, this one was too direct to be guessed upon:

(please log in to view the image)

"It always comes down to conquering the Universe, well, Multiverse in my case"

The context in that sentence differentiates the two terms (Universe & Multiverse) as two separate meanings.

We can't start fixing your cool idea on every story now friend, cause where do we draw the line then.

Also, Dormy saw all kinds of crazy when he was entering the heart of Eternity,
dimensions folding into themselves, entire universeS being born ... and dying,
even your worlds within worlds view was thrown in, and that was just a fraction,
until he actually hit the center and got the full picture.

It had to have been a Multiversal representation of Eternity. Imo.


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Last edited by Mr Master on Feb 13th, 2014 at 03:12 AM

Old Post Feb 13th, 2014 03:08 AM
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operator616
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ thumb up ... That's weird, rogue idiot writers perhaps?
Well, maybe it's been changed again to being atomic universes. (although yur other scans contradict that)
Still ... it doesn't change the fact that during (and years before) SW II it was what I proved it was.

Therefore, the Beyonder scene where he walks the Multiverse, is the actual Multiverse (passes NZ-Micro-Crossroads)
and Not a multiverse within the universe, or Shooter meaning 616 was a multiverse.

I'm sure you'll agree to that at-least.

That was the whole point of me posting those irrefutable scans concerning the Micro-Cosmos during SW I-II.


Yeah, while it is called as "worlds within worlds", it's still regarded as being a separate/parallel universe, i already posted a scan from Cable (which would be from the next issue after the "worlds within worlds" statement) confirming that it's separate. Alpha Flight also makes a reference to the spacewall:

http://i.imgur.com/InptbDa.jpg?2

So, nothing has been changed, the handbooks throughout the years also confirm this:

You'll notice that the handbooks over the years never changed the definition of the microverse, it's always been:

A parallel universe that may be reached from Earth by reducing one's mass to a certain point, thereby creating a nexus. They are erroneously thought to exist within the atoms of our universe

OHOTMU vol. 2:

http://i.imgur.com/QmSczei.jpg?1

OHOTMU vol. 3:

http://i.imgur.com/uLZQlkb.jpg?1

All new OHOTMU:

http://i.imgur.com/EkQfxNK.jpg?1

I also posted another handbook which contains Microverse's entry. All say the same thing.

If you want a more recent comic, then here's one from 2009 (Mighty Avengers #25):

http://i.imgur.com/sQVfRVv.jpg?1

"our universe into the microverse" (clearly differentiating between the two).

Like i said, Microverse being referred to as "worlds within worlds/inside our universe", doesn't change the fact that it's erroneously believed to be so, and most importantly: established to have a spacewall separating the mainstream universe from the microverse. <---That imo, is all the proof we need.

And yeah, i completely agree with you on your interpretation of the microverse, never disagreed with it.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master

I didn't disregard them, I believe I responded to that part of your post.


In your next response (directed at Galan), you said that you haven't seen a single instance where there was an entire universe within 616 or any other....

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master

Nah. Since those are "Whole" Universes with Pasts/FutureS and a Present.

I disagree opr. That was definitely a Multiversal portrayal in Infinity Crusade.

Remember good friend,
Eternity in that scene with Strange (Infinity Crusade) didn't give a rats ass about the 616 Universe.

Eternity called the 616 Reality ... "one Dimension ... an infinitesimal part of myself"

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/177..._616-5.jpg.html

-----------------------------------

Actually, in three separate scenarios (involving Infinity Crusade) in 3 different books,
Eternity & even Infinity was/were portrayed not caring about the 616 Universe.

I already addressed the Strange scene, here's another with Eternity and Warlock:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/177..._616-1.jpg.html

-----------------------------------

Here's another with Eternity and Infinity plus Warlock again:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/177..._616-2.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/177..._616-3.jpg.html

-----------------------------------

Eternity/Infinity didn't care about the demise of the 616 Universe, but he did care about the Multiverse!

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/177..._616-7.jpg.html

-----------------------------------

As you can see, if this was just a singular Eternity/Infinity and nothing else,
that verbal tone would be senseless. It's also obvious that the dialogue tells us
they are more than a single universe that may or may not contain "pockets."

You're a reasonable debater, I'm sure you'll agree even if you don't voice that, as I would.


Yeah, i did express doubt regarding this particular idea. Although try to hear me out. Starlin chose to portray Eternity throughout Infinity Gauntlet and Infinity War as universal. And Eternity also appeared before Strange in issue #36 of his series and was regarded as being universal (of course there are several other instances where Eternity was confirmed universal, most importantly in IG #5, where he challenges Thanos to see who'll become the master of "this" reality):

http://i.imgur.com/PDxfro3.jpg

That was directly before the 1st issue of Warlock & the Infinity Watch (where Eternity presents his case to the LT of Warlock being unworthy to wield the IG), and this is also where Eternity clearly says that he is the embodiment of "this universe" (this was clearly a reference to 616-reality despite them being inside DoM):

http://i.imgur.com/9GUMSlx.jpg?1

....Same Eternity who was shown in Infinity Crusade, your scan from Warlock Chronicles #2, solidifies this point, when it directly references the events of Warlock & the infinity watch #1:

http://i.imgur.com/6HxVnxu.jpg?1

So while i cannot say that you're wrong (your argument is clearly a strong and a reasonable one) but im just telling you where this idea of mine comes from. That's why i said in my previous post that "it directly involves prior events such as the IG and IW.

Although, now i remembered that in Defenders v3, Eternity (despite being portrayed as fully multiversal), did say that he had a prior encounter with Dormammu (a reference to Strange Tales v1 #146), where he was just universal. So that kinda weakens my case, i just remembered this now.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master

Cool scans. The Dark Dimension is a special case I believe, because it's a
universe which merged a bunch of tiny pockets if I'm not mistaken. The DD
was a pocket itself I believe. I gotta flip pages on this so I'll be back on that.

I'll get that link to where its explained meticulously how these "pockets" work,
why it seems they're located within the universe when we see a ball, door, box, whathaveyou.

Although I'll submit, until I find the direct info to establish my point, I can't decisively explain away your scans.

You're interpretation may be correct. You don't believe this applies to all pockets though right?

That aside, ... from what I've known,
Pockets may seem to be in the universe but they actually occupy their own space, I know that's a fact.
This is true even if they're part of the greater Eternity/infinity.
Which is why you end up in another place when you enter one. (a place un-reachable via distance-travelling speed)


No, you're not mistaken, Dark Dimension did in fact, merge with several realities. This was initially shown Dr Strange v2 (Master of Mystic Arts series) #71, and then retold in later issues:

http://i.imgur.com/eAl8Z3z.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/7Pjcugb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/6kNb56l.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/hsLNG7T.jpg

...But how's that diminish my point? I clearly said "Certain universes" in my initial post, i am well aware that it's a special case, this was even shown in the same issue that i posted the "Dark dimension containing pocket universes" scan from:

http://i.imgur.com/dj8keeK.jpg?1

And no, i don't believe this applies to all pockets, obviously.

Last edited by operator616 on Feb 13th, 2014 at 03:39 AM

Old Post Feb 13th, 2014 03:28 AM
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operator616
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The text was too long, so i continued my reply here, Mr Master.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
Yea, I wouldn't be surprised if that were possible Nowadays.
Marvel has changed much, it's difficult to keep up with the constant flux with "life" as another priority lol.

But yea, I'm starting to realize leo, opr and myself are all wrong and right.
leo was right after all, there's too many writers/interpretations to neatly fit this into a perfect painting.

I've noticed books cater to their own ideas many times, even though they're all Marvel.
X-Men world, FF world, Dr Strange world, Britain/Excalibur/Exiles world and so on.

I know Leo gets what I'm saying here cause I think this is the foundation of his point, and he's right.

The debate is pointless, there are certain things that are of course concrete,
but in the cosmology aspect of comics, nothing's set in stone and worse yet,
things evidently change very quickly anyway. (at-least Nowadays for sure)
There was a more structured established understanding imo before,
it may not have been absolute, but it was manageable.

The debate from now on for me will depend on the writers type of usual story-line,
or book title rather, cause that says it all. That would give me an idea of what to expect from their interpretation.

Well anyway, bottom-line is we can add different points of views concerning different stories,
and if they add up that's great and will solidify a claim more,
but if not, if it's contradicted by another story/writer and still both make sense,
then it's just separate angles to look at the idea from.

Imo.


Pretty much. Yeah ive noticed certain titles/writers use concepts/terms in a different matter than others.

I also on the 1st page you saying that there's only 1 type of a multiverse (which consists of alternate universes), but as a matter of fact, Marvel in these years, has referenced a "pocket multiverse", like in Deadpool Killustrated #2:

http://i.imgur.com/tUq7Yj4.jpg?1


quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas

well, the microverse issue, like the NZ as you guessed, is pretty easily explained away. hell, in the real world the quantum world has a different set of natural laws but yeah, i can easily see the microverse existing within 616 universe, like so many others can and do. but of course you'd need to pass some barrier to enter it, like you'd have to pass a barrier or dimensional wall to enter ANY other dimension/universe. we've also seen that reed has a simple door that opens to the NZ.


Reed has a "simple door".....? Come on, you know better.

Anyway, i can understand you arguing about the Microverse (it being called "world within world" or a "universe inside of our own"). But there's no denying NG's status. You still haven't answered the distortion area question.

And no, it doesn't depend on the title. Captain Marvel v4 #24, directly references the distortion area which leads to the Negative Zone:

http://i.imgur.com/jB6TEYU.jpg?1

Handbook directly referencing the distortion area:

http://i.imgur.com/FiPCJRe.jpg?1

Official Index to the FF #7, directly references the distortion area:

http://i.imgur.com/m0450cg.jpg?1

Same distortion area which is between realitIES (FF #253):

http://i.imgur.com/452XmV1.jpg?1

That's how it's always been. From FF annual #6 (one of its first appearances):

http://i.imgur.com/EVPj2cb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0BmTINJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nkr0Uzr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2QL3zHZ.jpg

"we're entering the distortion area".

Right to its most recent (more recent than your scan from Avengers v5 #21):

http://i.imgur.com/J5KyD1R.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/w4YyAem.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RLQaDFn.jpg

I could dedicate a whole post with references to NZ being a parallel/separate reality (from various titles), im just giving you 3 different sources (on panel, handbook, Index) to confirm that everything contradicts that point of yours.

That isn't to say that the NZ can only be reached by traveling through the distortion area, just that the fact that it's shown to clearly be a separate reality (via the distortion area) should settle it.

And what you're suggesting is impossible. Because Anti matter universe cannot exist within a matter.

That's setting aside the countless times the Negative Zone has been called as being "a parallel/separate" reality.

So im not sure why you're still clinging to that single Avengers scan of yours that contradicts EVERYTHING.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
i'm....not really sure what you're asking me, or how the fact that the both the microverse and the NZ are lept apart from our universe by their respective barriers somehow implies they can't still exist within our universe? confused


You said that one can simply "shrink" to get to the microverse, which implies that it's simply a "tinier" universe.

I, responded with proof that it merely breaks the dimensional barrier which has always been separating the 616 universe and the separate microverse.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas

ps--incidentally, i've only said i COULD see the microverse existing within our universe. i never really had much of an opinion if ot did. i DO think it has a place within eternity though, and at the heart, this is what the discussion has been about.


Then clarify your stance. Which one is it, in our universe or out?(stronger evidence pointing toward the former).

I disagree that the microverse is within Eternity. Eternity embodies the 616 reality along with some pocket dimensions. Microverse is separate.

We also have Mighty Avengers #35 (and this was even confirmed before that in that same series, but this one is a bit clearer), dissociating Eternity from the microverse, indirectly:

http://i.imgur.com/886dWAv.jpg

So, Overspace is above the mainstream 616 universe (which Eternity embodies), which in itself is above/separate from the microverse.

Note: In case you don't know what the overspace refers to, it's dimension where cosmic beings reside (like the DoM). This was confirmed (i can post scans if needed).

Last edited by operator616 on Feb 13th, 2014 at 03:35 AM

Old Post Feb 13th, 2014 03:28 AM
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TheGodKiller02
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
Yea, I wouldn't be surprised if that were possible Nowadays.

Read Avengers #24.NOW. In case you want specifics, this is the first time we see Hickman's adult Franklin appear in an issue outside of the F4/FF series.


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Old Post Feb 13th, 2014 05:45 AM
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leonidas
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by operator616
The text was too long, so i continued my reply here, Mr Master.



Pretty much. Yeah ive noticed certain titles/writers use concepts/terms in a different matter than others.

I also on the 1st page you saying that there's only 1 type of a multiverse (which consists of alternate universes), but as a matter of fact, Marvel in these years, has referenced a "pocket multiverse", like in Deadpool Killustrated #2:

http://i.imgur.com/tUq7Yj4.jpg?1




Reed has a "simple door".....? Come on, you know better.

Anyway, i can understand you arguing about the Microverse (it being called "world within world" or a "universe inside of our own"). But there's no denying NG's status. You still haven't answered the distortion area question.

And no, it doesn't depend on the title. Captain Marvel v4 #24, directly references the distortion area which leads to the Negative Zone:

http://i.imgur.com/jB6TEYU.jpg?1

Handbook directly referencing the distortion area:

http://i.imgur.com/FiPCJRe.jpg?1

Official Index to the FF #7, directly references the distortion area:

http://i.imgur.com/m0450cg.jpg?1

Same distortion area which is between realitIES (FF #253):

http://i.imgur.com/452XmV1.jpg?1

That's how it's always been. From FF annual #6 (one of its first appearances):

http://i.imgur.com/EVPj2cb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0BmTINJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nkr0Uzr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2QL3zHZ.jpg

"we're entering the distortion area".

Right to its most recent (more recent than your scan from Avengers v5 #21):

http://i.imgur.com/J5KyD1R.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/w4YyAem.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RLQaDFn.jpg

I could dedicate a whole post with references to NZ being a parallel/separate reality (from various titles), im just giving you 3 different sources (on panel, handbook, Index) to confirm that everything contradicts that point of yours.

That isn't to say that the NZ can only be reached by traveling through the distortion area, just that the fact that it's shown to clearly be a separate reality (via the distortion area) should settle it.

And what you're suggesting is impossible. Because Anti matter universe cannot exist within a matter.

That's setting aside the countless times the Negative Zone has been called as being "a parallel/separate" reality.

So im not sure why you're still clinging to that single Avengers scan of yours that contradicts EVERYTHING.



You said that one can simply "shrink" to get to the microverse, which implies that it's simply a "tinier" universe.

I, responded with proof that it merely breaks the dimensional barrier which has always been separating the 616 universe and the separate microverse.




Then clarify your stance. Which one is it, in our universe or out?(stronger evidence pointing toward the former).

I disagree that the microverse is within Eternity. Eternity embodies the 616 reality along with some pocket dimensions. Microverse is separate.

We also have Mighty Avengers #35 (and this was even confirmed before that in that same series, but this one is a bit clearer), dissociating Eternity from the microverse, indirectly:

http://i.imgur.com/886dWAv.jpg

So, Overspace is above the mainstream 616 universe (which Eternity embodies), which in itself is above/separate from the microverse.

Note: In case you don't know what the overspace refers to, it's dimension where cosmic beings reside (like the DoM). This was confirmed (i can post scans if needed).


and you're free to disagree. my stance has always been crystal clear though--eternity is a multiverse. the thing that gets murky (and i've said this in previous posts on this topic) is the location and of the other realities relative to each other. could the microverse be separate instead of within our universe? sure. does it have to be? no, not imo. you DO need to shrink to reach it. a corollary of shrinking to a certain degree is that you leave our universe and enter the microverse. if you shrunk in an ALTERNATE earth, you'd end up in an ALTERNATE microverse though. the alternate micro comes as part of the package of an alternate earth 616 universe which of course is part of an alternate eternity.

and @mrm--again, it's not a pick and choose circumstance, IMHO. eternity HAS been shown to be multiversal. the one dormmy fought ages ago WAS the eternity he fought in that defenders mini. him speaking in a universal sense DOES NOT PRECLUDE HIM BEING MULTIVERSAL, AS THAT WHAT IF SHOWED. he WAS an aspect. he still comprised the rest of the minor multiverse he represents. again, imo.

i'm glad you're willing to amend your stance even to a small degree though. i think we've all maybe learned something, and in that sense the discussion has been productive for some things at least. smile


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Old Post Feb 13th, 2014 12:25 PM
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