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marvel cosmology
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TheGodKiller02
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I agree that Eternity is a multiverse, though not in the same vein as Leo.


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Old Post Feb 13th, 2014 02:26 PM
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Galan007
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Epicurus
Read Avengers #24.NOW. In case you want specifics, this is the first time we see Hickman's adult Franklin appear in an issue outside of the F4/FF series.
thumb up

...And he now wields a pre-rape-smirk of abstract proportions:
(please log in to view the image)


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Old Post Feb 13th, 2014 03:24 PM
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Mr Master
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by operator616

Yeah, while it is called as "worlds within worlds", it's still regarded as being a separate/parallel universe, i already posted a scan from Cable (which would be from the next issue after the "worlds within worlds" statement) confirming that it's separate. Alpha Flight also makes a reference to the spacewall:

http://i.imgur.com/InptbDa.jpg?2

So, nothing has been changed, the handbooks throughout the years also confirm this:

You'll notice that the handbooks over the years never changed the definition of the microverse, it's always been:

A parallel universe that may be reached from Earth by reducing one's mass to a certain point, thereby creating a nexus. They are erroneously thought to exist within the atoms of our universe

OHOTMU vol. 2:

http://i.imgur.com/QmSczei.jpg?1

OHOTMU vol. 3:

http://i.imgur.com/uLZQlkb.jpg?1

All new OHOTMU:

http://i.imgur.com/EkQfxNK.jpg?1

I also posted another handbook which contains Microverse's entry. All say the same thing.

If you want a more recent comic, then here's one from 2009 (Mighty Avengers #25):

http://i.imgur.com/sQVfRVv.jpg?1

"our universe into the microverse" (clearly differentiating between the two).

Like i said, Microverse being referred to as "worlds within worlds/inside our universe", doesn't change the fact that it's erroneously believed to be so, and most importantly: established to have a spacewall separating the mainstream universe from the microverse. <---That imo, is all the proof we need.

And yeah, i completely agree with you on your interpretation of the microverse, never disagreed with it.

Get a hurst, cause this coffin is sealed. smile

Nice job.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by operator616

In your next response (directed at Galan), you said that you haven't seen a
single instance where there was an entire universe within 616 or any other....

I'm not referring to certain pockets anymore since that needs more info for a conclusion.
I'm talking about entire/whole universes merged/meshed/combined into/with 616's physical universe.

You feel me opr? Think about it, Franklin's pocket-reality isn't a foot across in size,
unless it's ridiculously miniaturized, then cool. Although that's not the case.
So, there are full sized stars, planets and whathaveyou in a Foot long universe? I disagree.

It makes more sense, that he enters the physical visualization of his pocket located in 616,
and disappears into another dimension where his stars/planets and so on is located.
I also believe the pocket (certain pockets at-least) can be withIN Eternity/Infinity due to your scans.

Imo at-least.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by operator616

Yeah, i did express doubt regarding this particular idea. Although try to hear me out. Starlin chose to portray Eternity throughout Infinity Gauntlet and Infinity War as universal. And Eternity also appeared before Strange in issue #36 of his series and was regarded as being universal (of course there are several other instances where Eternity was confirmed universal, most importantly in IG #5, where he challenges Thanos to see who'll become the master of "this" reality):

http://i.imgur.com/PDxfro3.jpg

That was directly before the 1st issue of Warlock & the Infinity Watch (where Eternity presents his case to the LT of Warlock being unworthy to wield the IG), and this is also where Eternity clearly says that he is the embodiment of "this universe" (this was clearly a reference to 616-reality despite them being inside DoM):

http://i.imgur.com/9GUMSlx.jpg?1

....Same Eternity who was shown in Infinity Crusade, your scan from Warlock Chronicles #2, solidifies this point, when it directly references the events of Warlock & the infinity watch #1:

http://i.imgur.com/6HxVnxu.jpg?1

So while i cannot say that you're wrong (your argument is clearly a strong and a reasonable one) but im just telling you where this idea of mine comes from. That's why i said in my previous post that "it directly involves prior events such as the IG and IW.

Although, now i remembered that in Defenders v3, Eternity (despite being portrayed as fully multiversal), did say that he had a prior encounter with Dormammu (a reference to Strange Tales v1 #146), where he was just universal. So that kinda weakens my case, i just remembered this now.

That's a solid stance, but you're right the Dormy joint kinda weakens it.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by operator616

No, you're not mistaken, Dark Dimension did in fact, merge with several realities. This was initially shown Dr Strange v2 (Master of Mystic Arts series) #71, and then retold in later issues:

http://i.imgur.com/eAl8Z3z.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/7Pjcugb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/6kNb56l.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/hsLNG7T.jpg

...But how's that diminish my point? I clearly said "Certain universes" in my initial post, i am well aware that it's a special case, this was even shown in the same issue that i posted the "Dark dimension containing pocket universes" scan from:

http://i.imgur.com/dj8keeK.jpg?1

And no, i don't believe this applies to all pockets, obviously.

thumb up


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Old Post Feb 13th, 2014 03:40 PM
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Mr Master
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by operator616

Pretty much. Yeah ive noticed certain titles/writers use concepts/terms in a different matter than others.

I also on the 1st page you saying that there's only 1 type of a multiverse (which consists of alternate universes), but as a matter of fact, Marvel in these years, has referenced a "pocket multiverse", like in Deadpool Killustrated #2:

http://i.imgur.com/tUq7Yj4.jpg?1

thumb up To be fair to myself, I never got into Deadpool comics,
Every time I came across one, it had this goofy undertone in their writing making them annoying, to me.

Also, that's "Deadpool" world. Remember my point above concerning different books/writers.
So basically, certain ideas may cater to their books specifically.

Or the scan is yet another new concept. (although you'd probably have to be a Deadpool fan to know about it.)
quote: (post)
Originally posted by operator616

Reed has a "simple door".....? Come on, you know better.

Anyway, i can understand you arguing about the Microverse (it being called "world within world" or a "universe inside of our own"). But there's no denying NG's status. You still haven't answered the distortion area question.

And no, it doesn't depend on the title. Captain Marvel v4 #24, directly references the distortion area which leads to the Negative Zone:

http://i.imgur.com/jB6TEYU.jpg?1

Handbook directly referencing the distortion area:

http://i.imgur.com/FiPCJRe.jpg?1

Official Index to the FF #7, directly references the distortion area:

http://i.imgur.com/m0450cg.jpg?1

Same distortion area which is between realitIES (FF #253):

http://i.imgur.com/452XmV1.jpg?1

That's how it's always been. From FF annual #6 (one of its first appearances):

http://i.imgur.com/EVPj2cb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0BmTINJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nkr0Uzr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2QL3zHZ.jpg

"we're entering the distortion area".

Right to its most recent (more recent than your scan from Avengers v5 #21):

http://i.imgur.com/J5KyD1R.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/w4YyAem.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RLQaDFn.jpg

I could dedicate a whole post with references to NZ being a parallel/separate reality (from various titles), im just giving you 3 different sources (on panel, handbook, Index) to confirm that everything contradicts that point of yours.

That isn't to say that the NZ can only be reached by traveling through the distortion area, just that the fact that it's shown to clearly be a separate reality (via the distortion area) should settle it.

And what you're suggesting is impossible. Because Anti matter universe cannot exist within a positive matter universe.

That's setting aside the countless times the Negative Zone has been called as being "a parallel/separate" reality.

So im not sure why you're still clinging to that single Avengers scan of yours that contradicts EVERYTHING.

You said that one can simply "shrink" to get to the microverse, which implies that it's simply a "tinier" universe.

I, responded with proof that it merely breaks the dimensional barrier which has always been separating the 616 universe and the separate microverse.

Then clarify your stance. Which one is it, in our universe or out?(stronger evidence pointing toward the former).

I disagree that the microverse is within Eternity. Eternity embodies the 616 reality along with some pocket dimensions. Microverse is separate.

We also have Mighty Avengers #35 (and this was even confirmed before that in that same series, but this one is a bit clearer), dissociating Eternity from the microverse, indirectly:

http://i.imgur.com/886dWAv.jpg

So, Overspace is above the mainstream 616 universe (which Eternity embodies), which in itself is above/separate from the microverse.

Note: In case you don't know what the overspace refers to, it's dimension where cosmic beings reside (like the DoM). This was confirmed (i can post scans if needed).

yes

Sure, these points lean towards my perspective,
but he elaborated with plenty extras to further cement the point as fact.

Leo, you can't argue this one good friend.


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Old Post Feb 13th, 2014 03:57 PM
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leonidas
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
thumb up To be fair to myself, I never got into Deadpool comics,
Every time I came across one, it had this goofy undertone in their writing making them annoying, to me.

Also, that's "Deadpool" world. Remember my point above concerning different books/writers.
So basically, certain ideas may cater to their books specifically.

Or the scan is yet another new concept. (although you'd probably have to be a Deadpool fan to know about it.)

yes

Sure, these points lean towards my perspective,
but he elaborated with plenty extras to further cement the point as fact.

Leo, you can't argue this one good friend.


wellllll, of course i can argue it. wink

as i said, being a parallel universe, being composed of anti-matter, none of those things PRECLUDE it being within the 616 universe. not sure how many times that can be said. matter and anti-matter DON'T touch because.....? the universes ARE separate, they ARE distinct realities, EXACTLY like 616 and it's alternates are DISTINCT realities WITHIN the multiverse. not sure why everyone seems so adamant about the exclusivity of the recent claim by the builder. it isn't some major retcon. imo it contradicts NOTHING that has been shown because everything that has been shown has shown the NZ IS A SEPARATE UNIVERSE. no one, not i, not the builder, contradicted that idea, ever. the only thing it did was change the 'relative' location of the NZ. it makes us look at the NZ in a way no one is used to. and to me that's no big deal. we (mrm and myself) discussed this longggg before this builder scan ever came out, and my stance was already firmly in place so the scan really didn't change anything for me in the grand scheme. i thought it would be more pertinent to you thb. for me, it only further cemented an idea i already took for granted. /shrug

all that said, if you don't like the scan, just throw out the builder's comment. i HATE tossing out info like that but admit that from time to time (very rarely imo) something is egregious enough to be tossed. that is NOT the case here. to me it's easier to see that the idea still fits with what we know about the NZ. if you guys want to label it PIS, by all means, do so. seriously, it doesn't matter all that much to me. the idea of universes within universes has been proven more than once in this thread by several people anyway. not sure why it's so difficult to place the NZ in that category, but do what you guys need to do. but know that imo there is no need to throw out ANY info. with only minor allowances, it fits just fine altogether.

and re: the 'distortion field'. why shouldn't there be a distortion field? if the NZ is within the 616, why would the fact that the distortion field is there as well be an issue? the distortion zone surrounds the NZ, and both are within the 616 universe. pretty simple imo. /shrug

in any event, i think most are of the opinion that eternity is indeed a multiverse, though his/its composition IS up for debate. i'll consider that victory enough given where this discussion started so long ago.

ps--epi, just out of curiosity--you said you see eternity as a multiverse as well, but differently from the way i do. care to elaborate? may shed some more light on things.


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Old Post Feb 13th, 2014 10:03 PM
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operator616
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^ You're right, it's not a major retcon, it's just Hickman talking out of his ass. Ive been following his F4/FF work (where he featured the NZ multiple times) and i don't recall him regarding the NZ as a "failed pocket universe". So i don't know what's his deal...but whatever. Im not going to disregard NZ's entire history cause of him. And more recent evidence (a Deadpool comic featuring the distortion area) cleared that up, so as far as im concerned, it's settled.

Why shouldn't there be a distortion area? Well, that's because (as i showed you multiple times), that's the area between REALITIES.

Anyway, i think we've offered enough proof to solidify Microverse's and NZ's status as separate realities.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
and you're free to disagree. my stance has always been crystal clear though--eternity is a multiverse. the thing that gets murky (and i've said this in previous posts on this topic) is the location and of the other realities relative to each other. could the microverse be separate instead of within our universe? sure. does it have to be? no, not imo. you DO need to shrink to reach it. a corollary of shrinking to a certain degree is that you leave our universe and enter the microverse. if you shrunk in an ALTERNATE earth, you'd end up in an ALTERNATE microverse though. the alternate micro comes as part of the package of an alternate earth 616 universe which of course is part of an alternate eternity.


I see. Although, as of 2000, all the microverses got merged to form one single microverse. First revealed in Captain Marvel v4:

http://i.imgur.com/44xNY8D.jpg

Notice it references the event as happening in the "Small X-Pectations" oneshot".....when in fact, no such one-shot/event exists. Don't know what Peter David/Brevoort were thinking here, honestly.

That's also quite an important event for Marvel (merging of all the micro-realms), yet....it never had a chance to have an event of its own.

-------------------

Also, the main point is to actually breach the spacewall separating the 2 universes. Example:

Micronauts v1 #28, an interdimensional transporter is used to breach the spacewall between the 2 universes:

http://i.imgur.com/28ytRQf.jpg?1

Those are basic facts, and they are undeniable.

One last thing: Even though the Negative Zone has alternate counterparts, it doesn't mean it's inside Eternity at all. I don't see a reason to believe that the NZ is part of Eternity.

Throughout its depictions, the Negative Zone is regarded as being a separate reality (literally referred to as a "parallel", "separate", and "a universe not our own", etc...), while Eternity is the embodiment of a single ("this") universe (unless its a multiversal portrayal).

Im curious though, on what basis are you arguing that the NZ and microverse being within Eternity?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master

I'm not referring to certain pockets anymore since that needs more info for a conclusion.
I'm talking about entire/whole universes merged/meshed/combined into/with 616's physical universe.


So you're not referring to pockets, okay. But there are several instances where universes (not pockets) merge together. I can show you multiple examples even back in the day. Here's one:

The story involves FF #151-53 (mid 70s). Two full alternate realities merge together.

So there are 2 alternate realities. In their respective worlds, one is ruled by Femizons, and another by men. Notice that "world" and "universe" are used interchangeably (this is important for the ending):

http://i.imgur.com/OeHBjUj.jpg

And as the above scan says the two realities are beginning to drawn to each other. The handbook (Marvel Legacy 1970s) confirms that the two "realities" began to close to each other:

http://i.imgur.com/Se2NzKZ.jpg?1

And in the end, they end up merging, resulting in a reality/world with the 2 sexes ruling:

http://i.imgur.com/5d6zHX1.jpg

Handbook:

http://i.imgur.com/pPhlJVI.jpg?1

Does that fit with what you're demanding? Because i can give other examples, and im pretty sure that you (whom i know to be very knowledgeable when it comes to Marvel) can remember some.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master

You feel me opr? Think about it, Franklin's pocket-reality isn't a foot across in size,
unless it's ridiculously miniaturized, then cool. Although that's not the case.
So, there are full sized stars, planets and whathaveyou in a Foot long universe? I disagree.

It makes more sense, that he enters the physical visualization of his pocket located in 616,
and disappears into another dimension where his stars/planets and so on is located.
I also believe the pocket (certain pockets at-least) can be withIN Eternity/Infinity due to your scans.

Imo at-least.


I get what you're saying, although how is that different from the Strange Tales instance, where Strange was transported to another universe within the Dark Dimension (via a portal), and called it "worlds within worlds"?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
thumb up To be fair to myself, I never got into Deadpool comics,
Every time I came across one, it had this goofy undertone in their writing making them annoying, to me.

Also, that's "Deadpool" world. Remember my point above concerning different books/writers.
So basically, certain ideas may cater to their books specifically.

Or the scan is yet another new concept. (although you'd probably have to be a Deadpool fan to know about it.)


Yeah, it's only limited to Deadpool's world, for now. We'll have to wait and see if this concept will appear outside Deadpool in the future (although i highly doubt it).

More-so, the writer is a relatively new one, who btw, technically got "killed" by Deadpool, as hinted at the end of Deadpool kills the Marvel Universe #4, lol.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Epicurus
I agree that Eternity is a multiverse, though not in the same vein as Leo.


Yeah im curious to know, in what sense, then?

Imo, the regular 616 Eternity, is the embodiment of a single (616) universe; while every other "multiversal" depiction for Eternity should be regarded as being "Multi-Eternity".

Old Post Feb 14th, 2014 02:28 AM
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TheGodKiller02
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
ps--epi, just out of curiosity--you said you see eternity as a multiverse as well, but differently from the way i do. care to elaborate? may shed some more light on things.

Your comments seem to indicate that you think that every individual Eternity is a metaphorical multiverse. If this is the case, then I disagree.

We know that universal Eternities are supposedly mere fractions/aspects of Eternity's totality, which is known as Multi-Eternity in the comics. We also that Earth-616 is the prime reality/timeline of the multiverse, and crap which happens in 616 inevitably ends up f*cking up the rest of the multiverse. Which indicates that 616-Eternity contains the core of the actual Multi-Eternity. Not to mention that since it is the true Eternity, we can colloquially refer it as "Eternity".

To me, all the misc Eternities of different universes are like Eternity's analogues of Chaos King who himself was an aspect of a higher Abstract. Similarly, these Eternities too are aspects of the actual thing, with one of them containing the soul/essence of the real deal.

Just my 2 cents.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by operator616
Yeah im curious to know, in what sense, then?

Imo, the regular 616 Eternity, is the embodiment of a single (616) universe; while every other "multiversal" depiction for Eternity should be regarded as being "Multi-Eternity".

Read the above para.

Anyways, imo the actual Eternity should definitely be a "encompassing parallel universes" sort of multiversal being, seeing how he is the Abstract embodiment of time, and how a real multiverse would theoretically be a 4-D construct.


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Old Post Feb 14th, 2014 06:51 AM
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operator616
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Epicurus

We know that universal Eternities are supposedly mere fractions/aspects of Eternity's totality, which is known as Multi-Eternity in the comics. We also that Earth-616 is the prime reality/timeline of the multiverse, and crap which happens in 616 inevitably ends up f*cking up the rest of the multiverse. Which indicates that 616-Eternity contains the core of the actual Multi-Eternity. Not to mention that since it is the true Eternity, we can colloquially refer it as "Eternity".


I see where you're coming from, but that particular concept (the underlined part) is not used in all the stories. So there's that.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Epicurus

To me, all the misc Eternities of different universes are like Eternity's analogues of Chaos King who himself was an aspect of a higher Abstract. Similarly, these Eternities too are aspects of the actual thing, with one of them containing the soul/essence of the real deal.


Trying to fit CK into this doesn't work, imo.

Because we also know that CK is 616-Eternity's opposite. While on the other hand, it's outright stated on panel that Oblivion is Eternity's opposite. The CK retcon in the Thor Annual, didn't make much of sense to me.

So while i can understand why you see the alt. Eternities being aspects of Eternity's totality in the same sense that CK is an aspect of Oblivion, it contradicts things when we look at the bigger picture.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Epicurus
Anyways, imo the actual Eternity should definitely be a "encompassing parallel universes" sort of multiversal being, seeing how he is the Abstract embodiment of time, and how a real multiverse would theoretically be a 4-D construct.


It should be noted though, that Eternity is sometimes portrayed as being the embodiment of the universe in all its aspects (not just time). After all, that's what Eternity was meant to represent when he was initially created (in the 60s). Infinity (embodiment of space) came later on.

Old Post Feb 14th, 2014 03:17 PM
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Galan007
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by operator616
So you're not referring to pockets, okay. But there are several instances where universes (not pockets) merge together. I can show you multiple examples even back in the day. Here's one:

The story involves FF #151-53 (mid 70s). Two full alternate realities merge together.

So there are 2 alternate realities. In their respective worlds, one is ruled by Femizons, and another by men. Notice that "world" and "universe" are used interchangeably (this is important for the ending):

http://i.imgur.com/OeHBjUj.jpg

And as the above scan says the two realities are beginning to drawn to each other. The handbook (Marvel Legacy 1970s) confirms that the two "realities" began to close to each other:

http://i.imgur.com/Se2NzKZ.jpg?1

And in the end, they end up merging, resulting in a reality/world with the 2 sexes ruling:

http://i.imgur.com/5d6zHX1.jpg

Handbook:

http://i.imgur.com/pPhlJVI.jpg?1

Does that fit with what you're demanding? Because i can give other examples, and im pretty sure that you (whom i know to be very knowledgeable when it comes to Marvel) can remember some.
Yeah, I really don't understand what the block is here. In the world of comics, size is not always relative to size--that is to say: something of nigh-infinite scope/scale *can* be housed within a very small container. I think you may have posted this scan already, but I'll go ahead and reiterate it with some additional info...

During New Mutants and X-Men Legacy, we saw that a very small/handheld wooden box actually contained an entire universe:
http://imgur.com/Zefrv0R


Confirmation that the box itself *was* a whole universe, and not simply a gateway to one...

"The pulse of the universe stirs between their fingers.":
http://imgur.com/CLOMZlB

"Someone died and left you the whole universe.":
http://imgur.com/YOwByCL

"You're holding the whole of creation in your hands.":
http://imgur.com/HUEdYX2


= Further proof of one reality existing within another. That is about as simple/basic/cut-and-dry as it gets. /shrug


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Last edited by Galan007 on Feb 14th, 2014 at 03:46 PM

Old Post Feb 14th, 2014 03:38 PM
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leonidas
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Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!

quote: (post)
Originally posted by operator616
^ You're right, it's not a major retcon, it's just Hickman talking out of his ass. Ive been following his F4/FF work (where he featured the NZ multiple times) and i don't recall him regarding the NZ as a "failed pocket universe". So i don't know what's his deal...but whatever. Im not going to disregard NZ's entire history cause of him. And more recent evidence (a Deadpool comic featuring the distortion area) cleared that up, so as far as im concerned, it's settled.

Why shouldn't there be a distortion area? Well, that's because (as i showed you multiple times), that's the area between REALITIES.

Anyway, i think we've offered enough proof to solidify Microverse's and NZ's status as separate realities.



I see. Although, as of 2000, all the microverses got merged to form one single microverse. First revealed in Captain Marvel v4:

http://i.imgur.com/44xNY8D.jpg

Notice it references the event as happening in the "Small X-Pectations" oneshot".....when in fact, no such one-shot/event exists. Don't know what Peter David/Brevoort were thinking here, honestly.

That's also quite an important event for Marvel (merging of all the micro-realms), yet....it never had a chance to have an event of its own.

-------------------

Also, the main point is to actually breach the spacewall separating the 2 universes. Example:

Micronauts v1 #28, an interdimensional transporter is used to breach the spacewall between the 2 universes:

http://i.imgur.com/28ytRQf.jpg?1

Those are basic facts, and they are undeniable.

One last thing: Even though the Negative Zone has alternate counterparts, it doesn't mean it's inside Eternity at all. I don't see a reason to believe that the NZ is part of Eternity.

Throughout its depictions, the Negative Zone is regarded as being a separate reality (literally referred to as a "parallel", "separate", and "a universe not our own", etc...), while Eternity is the embodiment of a single ("this") universe (unless its a multiversal portrayal).

Im curious though, on what basis are you arguing that the NZ and microverse being within Eternity?


i agree completely--NZ and microverse ARE completely separate realities. the NZ even has a buffering distortion zone. thumb up that, of course, has never been the issue.

to me, the idea that the micro and NG fit within a broader multiversal eternity comes from what ifs, as well as the clear scans that show eternity is indeed a multiverse. not MULTI-ETERNITY. just eternity. we've seen strange blatantly comment that eternity is composed of multiple universes and realities. we've seen dormmy refer to himself as mutliversal when he took control of eternity (i don't for a moment believe he was intended to have taken control of MULTI-ETERNITY, who was never referenced by name, ever, outside that singular ff arc), an eternity he battled in the past. the only way around that is to come up with some notion that each eternity shares some pool of knowledge or something with others. seems like a lot of speculation when it's easy to just go with what is on panel--the eternity dormmy battled IS a multiverse. even beyonder states our universe is multi-layered.

anyway, the proof for eternity being a multiverse, just ONE of an infinite number of mutliverses seems so clear to me that it's hard to see why it isn't just commonly accepted by this point. the lack fluidity in language in comics makes references to 'universal' all but meaningless imo.

so, if i take it as fact that eternity is indeed a mutliverse, tehn it begs the question: which comic book dimensions/realities/etc make it up? and here's where it gets murky. imo, MOST are included, but i confess i'm not sure where all of them would lie. a great deal of support comes from the fact that when an alternate 616 exists, it automatically brings with it alternate versions of nearly everything else. why would an alternate 616, have an alternate set of vishanti, if the vishanti account for magical balance in the whole multiverse? stands to reason to me that there must be ANOTHER multiverse where those alternate vishanti are magical arbiters. the same can be said of MOST dimensions. why should there be alternates of ALL these other dimensions (hell, dark dimension, crimson cosmos, NZ, micro, etc......) just because an alternate 616 is born? why wouldn't alternate 616 characters simply interact with 616 dormammu for example? every alternate 616 has an alternate asgard, an alternate hell, etc,. why? to me, it's NOT because the 616 alternate exists, it's because there is an entirely alternate MULTIVERSE from our own, and imo an eternity represents THAT multiverse as well. just a different eternity.

i suppose that multiverse doesn't need to be an alternate 'eternity'. maybe all those realms are just.....linked in some way? but to me it stands to reason--if eternity is a multiverse, it must be made of and almost infinite number of dimensions/realities. seems reasonable to assume that these separate dimensions i mentioned make up his/its multiversal TOTALITY. it explains why an alternate eternity ALSO HAS all these other ALTERNATE dimensions.

maybe i've not been very clear, but IMO it is a simple answer that ties up most of what I'VE seen in marvel comics.


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Old Post Feb 14th, 2014 09:11 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Epicurus
Your comments seem to indicate that you think that every individual Eternity is a metaphorical multiverse. If this is the case, then I disagree.

We know that universal Eternities are supposedly mere fractions/aspects of Eternity's totality, which is known as Multi-Eternity in the comics.


cool, and you're entitled to believe what you'd like of course. but i didn't mean eternity is a multiverse in a metaphorical sense--i mean it in a wholly literal sense. and that every eternity is ALSO a multiverse unto itself.

as for the aspects bit--i'd disagree with this. it requires retroactively applying multi-eternity to that what if issue. to me, it's easier to say that the 616 universe died, the part of eternity that represented that universe was finished, but that eternity was only part of the larger totality that still represents that multiverse. not the GREATER mutliverse that "multi-eternity" is believed to represent, just the rest of the minor multiverse that it comprises.

i wish multi-eternity had never been introduced.......


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Old Post Feb 14th, 2014 09:17 PM
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Mr Master
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by operator616

So you're not referring to pockets, okay. But there are several instances where universes (not pockets) merge together. I can show you multiple examples even back in the day. Here's one:

The story involves FF #151-53 (mid 70s). Two full alternate realities merge together.
So there are 2 alternate realities. In their respective worlds, one is ruled by Femizons, and another by men. Notice that "world" and "universe" are used interchangeably (this is important for the ending):
http://i.imgur.com/OeHBjUj.jpg
And as the above scan says the two realities are beginning to drawn to each other. The handbook (Marvel Legacy 1970s) confirms that the two "realities" began to close to each other:
http://i.imgur.com/Se2NzKZ.jpg?1
And in the end, they end up merging, resulting in a reality/world with the 2 sexes ruling:
http://i.imgur.com/5d6zHX1.jpg
Handbook:
http://i.imgur.com/pPhlJVI.jpg?1

Does that fit with what you're demanding? Because i can give other examples

Wow, haven't seen that in a while, but it doesn't fit. Because it's glazed in a stipulation.

Thanx good friend, but I knew about that particular occurrence and it it's probably not a good example.

First, that merger was Un-Natural. Those were two separate Alternate realities which merged into one.
Universes aren't supposed to be meshed together
which is why Reed told us
this could not only cause the destruction of the Two universes: 'Machans' and 'Femizonia'
but of ALL the Alternate universeS including 616
:

(please log in to view the image)

-----------------------------------------------------

This is why Isabella (writer) via Reed pointed out how the "explosion"
merged both worlds without disrupting the other Alternate Universes:

(please log in to view the image)

This was highlighted because under normal conditions Two universes meshed = obliteration.

-----------------------------------------------------

Anyway, I forgot about that story it's been years, I also lol at Mid-70's comedy like
funny how some nuclear explosion can merge two universes warping them into one working reality,
merging them so perfectly that this un-natural state was contained
and no damage was caused to the rest of infinity.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by operator616

and im pretty sure that you (whom i know to be very knowledgeable when it comes to Marvel) can remember some.

I appreciate you noticing that but honestly, I've never seen a story that involved two universes merged working separately.

That's a universe within a universe imo, not two universes forced merged into one universe, (working or not)
or a mini box, ball, carpet, or room that leads to another space that contains full sized galaxies and such.

Imo.


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Old Post Feb 14th, 2014 10:33 PM
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operator616
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
to me, it's easier to say that the 616 universe died, the part of eternity that represented that universe was finished, but that eternity was only part of the larger totality that still represents that multiverse. not the GREATER mutliverse that "multi-eternity" is believed to represent, just the rest of the minor multiverse that it comprises.


Not possible, imo. Since in that What If? Eternity specifically said "of the night infinite aspects..." that's a clear reference to the nigh-infinite alternate realities, not universes such as the NZ, or pockets etc... who are associated with that reality where Eternity died.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas

to me, the idea that the micro and NG fit within a broader multiversal eternity comes from what ifs, as well as the clear scans that show eternity is indeed a multiverse. not MULTI-ETERNITY. just eternity.


So what if the specific term "multi-Eternity" is never referred as such again?

The page clearly says that each Eternity represents a universe. While Multi-Eternity represents the multiverse. So when we have a "multiversal" portrayal for Eternity, we should automatically consider it as "multi-Eternity".

Same concept, but different terminology by different writers.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
we've seen strange blatantly comment that eternity is composed of multiple universes and realities.


I also thought there for a minute that this was supposed to be a reference to the pocket dimensions and the other universes associated with 616. But Mr Master pointed out that those universeS refer to future/past realities....which have to be alternate realities. He was right about that.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
we've seen dormmy refer to himself as mutliversal when he took control of eternity (i don't for a moment believe he was intended to have taken control of MULTI-ETERNITY, who was never referenced by name, ever, outside that singular ff arc), an eternity he battled in the past. the only way around that is to come up with some notion that each eternity shares some pool of knowledge or something with others. seems like a lot of speculation when it's easy to just go with what is on panel--the eternity dormmy battled IS a multiverse. even beyonder states our universe is multi-layered.



Just because that Eternity referenced their encounter in Strange Tales v1, doesn't mean it has to be the same one.

I remember the same thing in Defenders v1 (i already showed you some of those).

So in Defenders v1 #92, Strange encounters Eternity and recognizes him due to their previous meetings (which technically means it's the same Eternity):

http://i.imgur.com/ZKDrGtz.jpg?1

Yet, we know that this Eternity was meant to be multiversal. Because in that story, Eternity was incomplete, and as a result, reality was dying:

http://i.imgur.com/huWhtsl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/HPvY9W9.jpg

We know that "reality" = multiverse, it's mentioned in the issue itself:

http://i.imgur.com/MniJ8CS.jpg?1

And a few issues later, a recollection of the event confirms it:

http://i.imgur.com/s0VL4a2.jpg?

So, we deduce that (as you said) all those Eternities share the same consciousness with Eternity's totality.

So you're saying that the Eternity whom Dormammu/Umar usurped is a multiverse in the sense that he's consisted of universe-616 along with its associated realities? .... i don't think so, it's already been pointed out that Dormammu differentiates between "universe" and "multiverse" ..... which is how it's always been. When the term "multiverse" is used, it's always meant to refer to the infinite/trans-infinite alternate realities which compromise it.

I don't think you're quite getting the Beyonder instance. It's really simple. It says that our "universe" (which is meant to refer to the actual multiverse) is many-layered composed of endless dimensions (clearly a reference to alternate realities), that's why if you look at the top of every issue of Secret Wars 2, you'll notice that it says "beyond the myriad (endless) dimensions lies another universe (Beyonder's)". We know that Beyonder's universe is beyond all the alternate realities of the multiverse. So that tells us the endless dimensions = endless alternate realities. That much is indisputable, imo.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
a great deal of support comes from the fact that when an alternate 616 exists, it automatically brings with it alternate versions of nearly everything else. why would an alternate 616, have an alternate set of vishanti, if the vishanti account for magical balance in the whole multiverse? stands to reason to me that there must be ANOTHER multiverse where those alternate vishanti are magical arbiters.


That would be because one Vishanti exists. Agamotto'd realm for one, is confirmed to be outside Eternity.

In Infinity War, when Galactus, Strange, SS, and Nova were traveling throughout the dimensional corridor (passing past realities), they come across Agamotto's realm who snatches Strange from the ship. Strange tells Agamotto that because Eternity is catatonic, the whole universe is in danger:

http://i.imgur.com/TH4LVAW.jpg?1

Agamotto's reply was: your universe not mine:

http://i.imgur.com/7AjH9m0.jpg?1

That definitely confirms that he's outside Eternity.

As a collective, they appeared to come from The relam of "Magick", which was shown in the the 3rd silver surfer series.

in a later issue (#31). It's explained that as LT's 3 faces represent vengeance, necessity, and equity (represented by Death, Eternity, and Galactus respectively). The realm of Vishanti (Magick) have Lord Chaos, Master order and Inbetweener representing those three concepts:

http://i.imgur.com/wCn8mRS.jpg

Just like it was explained in SS v3 #16:

http://i.imgur.com/hXNmh0J.jpg

So they don't have alternate reality counterparts, they have their own universe from which they come from.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
the same can be said of MOST dimensions. why should there be alternates of ALL these other dimensions (hell, dark dimension, crimson cosmos, NZ, micro, etc......) just because an alternate 616 is born? why wouldn't alternate 616 characters simply interact with 616 dormammu for example? every alternate 616 has an alternate asgard, an alternate hell, etc,. why? to me, it's NOT because the 616 alternate exists, it's because there is an entirely alternate MULTIVERSE from our own, and imo an eternity represents THAT multiverse as well. just a different eternity.


Alternate characters don't interact with 616 Dormammu, because those dimensions that are associated with a specific reality, surround man's world (surround the universe). Scan from Dr Strange v3 #31 (IG tie in):

http://i.imgur.com/tX3DfUB.jpg?1

(notice that Dormammu is shown, so his dimension is included to "surround man's world).

So every Dark Dimension surrounds its respective universe, that's why they interact with each of their respective universes. (there are several other instances solidifying this).

Another thing worth mentioning: I noticed that you included the Crimson Cosmos as part of the dimensions associated with a reality....but it's not, only one Crimson Cosmos exists. It actually exists within the Gem of Cyttorak, and on the other hand it can be reached by other means (like traveling throughout the dimensional corridor).

That's why it's called as being "between dimensions" (definitely alternate universes), even back in the day (X-men #32)

http://i.imgur.com/VXgcSFM.jpg?1

(this is confirmed several times)

Although there's still the fact that it exists within the Gem somehow....confirmed by multiple sources. And we see instances where people enter the gem and pop up in the crimson cosmos (and we know that's where Cyttorak created it)

But anyway, point is, there's only one.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
every alternate 616 has an alternate asgard, an alternate hell, etc,. why? to me, it's NOT because the 616 alternate exists, it's because there is an entirely alternate MULTIVERSE from our own, and imo an eternity represents THAT multiverse as well. just a different eternity.


You terminology is wrong, imo. Those cannot be called "multiverse". You can call it that yourself if you want, but i know for a fact that Marvel does not, because a multiverse only refers to the set of alternate universes that compromise it.

Another point is that, Eternity does not encompass every dimension associated with a certain reality. I can say for sure that it does not encompass the NZ.

So again, on what basis are you saying that the NZ or the microverse are within Eternity?

Last edited by operator616 on Feb 15th, 2014 at 04:13 AM

Old Post Feb 15th, 2014 04:08 AM
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leonidas
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by operator616
Not possible, imo. Since in that What If? Eternity specifically said "of the night infinite aspects..." that's a clear reference to the nigh-infinite alternate realities, not universes such as the NZ, or pockets etc... who are associated with that reality where Eternity died.


iyo. thumb up


quote:
So what if the specific term "multi-Eternity" is never referred as such again?


then i'll pass him off as a myth most likely.

quote:
The page clearly says that each Eternity represents a universe. While Multi-Eternity represents the multiverse. So when we have a "multiversal" portrayal for Eternity, we should automatically consider it as "multi-Eternity".


not at all imo. we've seen eternity reach for strange, seen strange reference universes within universes as the hand reaches for him. why would i ascribe that to a one-time only myth called multi-eternity. imo, if marvel was really sold on that concept, they'd have pushed it in the crazy cosmic stories they've turned out in the last 10 years. they certainly wouldn't resort to confusing readers, or forcing readers to try and figure out on their own just which eternity/consciousness of eternity, is being discussed.

and any time the term universe is used as proof is pretty meaningless imo. the term has been rendered meaingless and only seems to get ascribed a specific meaning when someone is looking for it to HAVE a specific meaning. we can say eternity represents a universe, but then when we're told thanos and the hotu absorbed a universe we're to assume it's the multiverse. you can find as many universe scans as you'd like. i've seen on panel through strange and dormmy that eternity is a multiversal entity. and seeing it means i don't have to discover via distantly connected dots that eternities MAY share a consciousness and thereby be forced to fit a conclusion that the vast majority of readers would never, in a million years be able to make.... that conclusion being that the eternity dormmy took over wasn't in fact the same eternity he fought. rather it was a more....widely conscious? eternity? nah. i'll take what i saw, and saw more than once on panel. occam's razor. no disparate dots to connect.

quote:
Same concept, but different terminology by different writers.


that sword cuts both ways. thumb up

quote:
I also thought there for a minute that this was supposed to be a reference to the pocket dimensions and the other universes associated with 616. But Mr Master pointed out that those universeS refer to future/past realities....which have to be alternate realities. He was right about that.


in his opinion. thumb up

quote:
Just because that Eternity referenced their encounter in Strange Tales v1, doesn't mean it has to be the same one.

I remember the same thing in Defenders v1 (i already showed you some of those).

So in Defenders v1 #92, Strange encounters Eternity and recognizes him due to their previous meetings (which technically means it's the same Eternity):

http://i.imgur.com/ZKDrGtz.jpg?1

Yet, we know that this Eternity was meant to be multiversal. Because in that story, Eternity was incomplete, and as a result, reality was dying:

http://i.imgur.com/huWhtsl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/HPvY9W9.jpg

We know that "reality" = multiverse, it's mentioned in the issue itself:


thumb up i agree. in that instance, like in ALL instances, eternity is multiversal.

quote:
So, we deduce that (as you said) all those Eternities share the same consciousness with Eternity's totality.


why should we be forced to deduce anything? eternity is multiversal. the only time deductions are required seems to be when you need to explain away some proof that may lend credence to eternitiy's multiversal nature. that's why i like my theory better.

quote:
So you're saying that the Eternity whom Dormmmu/Umar usurped is a multiverse in the sense that he's consisted of universe-616 along with its associated realities? ....


yep. i'd wager giffen had that in mind as well, instead of imbuing all the subtext you're saying is required to fully understand the scene.

quote:
I don't think you're quite getting the Beyonder instance. It's really simple. It says that our "universe" (which is meant to refer to the actual multiverse)


but said universe..... and eternity is said to be a universe as well. why doesn't that mean HE's a multiverse? you have your opinion, like mrm does. that's cool. it just isn't mine. at all.

quote:
That would be because one Vishanti exists. Agamotto'd realm for one, is confirmed to be outside Eternity.


it says outside eternity somewhere? not outside the universe. outside eternity? because if he is a multiverse his universe is separate and WOULD be fine if 616 fell. like the other aspects of that what if eternity....

quote:
That definitely confirms that he's outside Eternity.


confirms its outside the universe, it certainly does.


quote:
So they don't have alternate reality counterparts, they have their own universe from which they come from.


huh? of course they have counterparts.....

quote:
Alternate characters don't interact with 616 Dormammu, because those dimensions that are associated with a specific reality, surround man's world (surround the universe). Scan from Dr Strange v3 #31 (IG tie in):

http://i.imgur.com/tX3DfUB.jpg?1

(notice that Dormammu is shown, so his dimension is included to "surround man's world).

So every Dark Dimension surrounds its respective universe, that's why they interact with each of their respective universes. (there are several other instances solidifying this).


that doesn't explain the reason they have counterparts at all, especially just because 616 is remade. so let's label eternity the sum of the man's world worlds then. works for me.

quote:
That's why it's called as being "between dimensions" (definitely alternate universes), even back in the day (X-men #32)

http://i.imgur.com/VXgcSFM.jpg?1

(this is confirmed several times)

Although there's still the fact that it exists within the Gem somehow....confirmed by multiple sources. And we see instances where people enter the gem and pop up in the crimson cosmos (and we know that's where Cyttorak created it)

But anyway, point is, there's only one.[quote]

there are a couple what if issues i believe that deal with alternate jugg's and different versions of cyttorak.

[quote]You terminology is wrong, imo. Those cannot be called "multiverse". You can call it that yourself if you want, but i know for a fact that Marvel does not, because a multiverse only refers to the set of alternate universes that compromise it.


which is why i keep saying minor multiverse. the language in marvel is f'd. there is no consistency and so no way to USE the language in anyway that is consistent.

quote:
Another point is that, Eternity does not encompass every dimension associated with a certain reality. I can say for sure that it does not encompass the NZ.


iyo. thumb up

quote:
So again, on what basis are you saying that the NZ or the microverse are within Eternity? [/B]


i'd refer you back to the previous post as nothing that was shown here changes my way of thinking.

tbh, there's really nothing you CAN show (believe me, mrm has tried and tried over the years, and he's shown much of what you've shown in the last posts) save this: a scan that specifically states ETERNITY encompasses ONLY the 616 universe and NO OTHER. even his bio references his representing everything in all planes of existence. show me a scan that says he SPECIFICALLY does not represent ANY other dimension (even something like asgard which would then relegate eternity to being nothing more than a small piece of the far greater nine worlds.....a silly realization imo) and i will happily concede. until then, i'll continue to believe what was shown, and forego having to connect distant dots, or having to try and deduce which version of eternity is being spoken of. hope this didn't sound snarky. not my intent. just that mrm and i have covered almost all of this over many threads, many times and until i see the specific proof i mentioned, it's not likely my opinion will change on the subject of eternity's multiversality.


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Old Post Feb 16th, 2014 11:09 PM
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argh tried editing but stupid time limit.... anyway, the idea of alternate crimson cosmoses is pretty simply explained. you just need alternate versions of the gem. there are definitely an alternate version of juggs and i seem to recall another incidence where there was an alternate cyttorak shown. as for the vishanti--marvel officially recognized alternate versions of them on earth 791218. that's just one, and doesn't take into account alternate versions of the eye of agamotto that the plethora of dr strange alternates wear. they even reference all alternates as ORIGINATING from "earths". you also mentioned chaos and order but seemed to imply they don't represent order/chaos in our universe, but we've seen them shift and alter sizes relative to each other BASED on events transpiring within our universe. seems to be a pretty clear implication to me.....

re the microverse--i'm still not sure what the fact that all the alternates (which would have existed in any alternate version of 616.....) getting merged into one by karza is supposed to show. there were certainly alternate versions of bug out there. maybe they're gone now (not sure, but certainly one was part of the gotg...) but regardless, there WERE alternate microverses, like there are alternates of all dimensions associated with the 616 and eternity. conincedence? not at all imo.

maybe eternity doesn't encompass all those places, but all those other dimensions certainly exist (and the entities that populate them) where an alternate earth exists and they seem to almost always come hand-in-hand. to me that most certainly implies a relationship between all the realms of a multiversal nature, whether you believe eternity serves as the representative or not.


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Old Post Feb 17th, 2014 12:43 AM
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TheGodKiller02
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by operator616
So while i can understand why you see the alt. Eternities being aspects of Eternity's totality in the same sense that CK is an aspect of Oblivion, it contradicts things when we look at the bigger picture.

It really doesn't though. Considering that 616 too is technically only an aspect of the true Eternity according to my theory, one aspect of the true Oblivion being the antithesis of an aspect of the true Eternity actually makes things even clearer. Heck, it further adds substance to my belief that Abraxas too was an aspect/incarnation of Oblivion like Mikaboshi.


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Old Post Feb 17th, 2014 08:02 AM
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TheGodKiller02
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
cool, and you're entitled to believe what you'd like of course. but i didn't mean eternity is a multiverse in a metaphorical sense--i mean it in a wholly literal sense. and that every eternity is ALSO a multiverse unto itself.

Multiverse composed of associated realms like the Negative Zone and the Hell-Lords' domains, right?

In which case, that's a metaphorical multiverse. The multiverse I am talking about is the more popular, infinite parallel universes sort of deal which is popular in comics and fiction in general. Which is what the real Eternity represents imo, and the various designated realities(616, 4280, 88194, 1610, 93060 etc) are represented by miniscule fractions of Eternity's essence, in other words, the various universal Eternities are mere aspects of the real Eternity(which should be called Multi-Eternity based on the on-panel evidence available at hand).


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Old Post Feb 17th, 2014 08:09 AM
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leonidas
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thumb up

not sure how you're using the term metaphorical though. i do see where you're coming from however, and, like mrm and opr, you could very well be right.

go back and look through early posts--i've never said MINE is the correct way to view this, only one POSSIBLE way. i've said that to mrm in countless debates. the issue i have is never with the fact that others may have equally sound explanations, but rather the fact that someone says the way i see things is IMPOSSIBLE. anyway, the discussion, while interesting, is growing a bit old. maybe i'll try and throw together one coherent post that more fully outlines why i think the way i do using all the scans i have to support the idea. feels like i've done that many times over the years, but, if i'm bored maybe i'll do it one more time.


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Old Post Feb 17th, 2014 01:59 PM
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TheGodKiller02
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
thumb up

not sure how you're using the term metaphorical though. i do see where you're coming from however, and, like mrm and opr, you could very well be right.

go back and look through early posts--i've never said MINE is the correct way to view this, only one POSSIBLE way. i've said that to mrm in countless debates. the issue i have is never with the fact that others may have equally sound explanations, but rather the fact that someone says the way i see things is IMPOSSIBLE. anyway, the discussion, while interesting, is growing a bit old. maybe i'll try and throw together one coherent post that more fully outlines why i think the way i do using all the scans i have to support the idea. feels like i've done that many times over the years, but, if i'm bored maybe i'll do it one more time.

I call it metaphorical because a reality tethered with pocket dimensions like like the Hell-Lords' domains isn't an actual multiverse as far as I am concerned.

Just my 2 cents.


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Old Post Feb 18th, 2014 06:00 AM
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We'll agree to disagree regarding this topic overall, but i just want to clarify this point:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas

huh? of course they have counterparts.....


quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
as for the vishanti--marvel officially recognized alternate versions of them on earth 791218. that's just one, and doesn't take into account alternate versions of the eye of agamotto that the plethora of dr strange alternates wear. they even reference all alternates as ORIGINATING from "earths".


...No they don't.

I figured you'd use alternate versions to prove your point. But fact is, it doesn't.

The Vishanti aren't multiversal powers, but they do operate on a multiversal scale. That's why referencing a What if? to prove your point isn't gonna work.

Also, you think that writers take into account What If?s when writing a mainstream comic? Let me give you an example of how things work:

In his Excalibur run, Claremont established in the The Cross-time Caper story-line that there's only one Rachel/Phoenix. Basically, we never saw an alternate version of the character, as opposed to other characters. It was stated that the Phoenix Force exists once across all realities in Excalibur #34 letters page:

http://i.imgur.com/E847rD6.jpg?1

(Regarding Rachel, this was confirmed several times throughout the Excalibur series, and even after that).

Now, when a fan came asking that how come there's only one version of the Phoenix across the entire multiverse, when Phoenix appeared in various What if?s, guess what they answered?

http://i.imgur.com/qaWUEi5.jpg?1

"What If...is not part of the 'real' Marvel Universe"

See what i mean? At least some writers, don't take into accounts What Ifs even when establishing multiversal constants.

But that aside, there are mainstream comics (other than What Ifs), confirming the existence of Vishanti in other realities (one such example would an issue of Exiles)......but that doesn't change anything either.

Cause like i said before: The Vishanti operate on a multiversal scale. Just like LT appears in alternate realities yet we know it's the one and same LT. Although like i said: That doesn't mean that the Vishanti are multiversal powers (someone like Immortus, the one version, appears not only in certain alternate realities, but in several What Ifs, for instance).

2007 handbook:

http://i.imgur.com/NtbBUuq.jpg?1

"Agamotto ...observing events throughout the multiverse"

Hence why in Infinity War, Agamotto says that he has a duty to the multiverse:

http://i.imgur.com/cXSB3i2.jpg?1

Although the Vishanti are mostly treated as being universal deities (pretty sure ive read virtually all if not actually all comics associated with them)....that doesn't change the fact that we have certain accounts confirming that they operate on a multiversal scale.

Now if you're gonna try and say that "the multiverse" simply refers to the 616-reality and its associated dimensions and various pockets.....then that's a big NO. Because that same series -- Dr Strange Sorcerer Supreme #21 -- gives us a lovely explanation of the nature of the multiverse, and confirms that it's constituted from the various Trans-infinite alternate realities (not that we didn't know that, because i know for a fact that every time the term "multiverse" is used, it refers to the infinite alternate realities that constitute it):

http://i.imgur.com/Odc7cod.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/9jBC6PA.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/MxARuhL.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/VCTb0gD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/A7ZuhOk.jpg

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas

confirms its outside the universe, it certainly does.


As for this.....come on now. Strange says that because Eternity is catatonic, the whole universe is in danger. In other words (and this really doesn't have to be spelled out): The universe which Eternity represents is in danger as a result of Eternity being catatonic.

Agamotto responded that it was Strange's universe not his (confirming that his dimension is outside Strange's universe/Eternity).....which makes sense considering it's reached through the dimensional corridor.

Old Post Feb 19th, 2014 12:04 AM
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