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marvel cosmology
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leonidas
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k, so because of some cool discussion brought up in this awesome thread:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...mp;pagenumber=7

props to galan for raising the sh!t again, thumb up

i thought i'd throw in a few more tidbits here as food for thought and maybe outline again my own thoughts on this confusing topic of marvel's cosmology. but first, some of the discussion that led to this BUMP big grin

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
as regards the rest--each eternity is a multiverse unto itself imo. i do think that each eternity is also a part of a larger version of eternity as that was mentioned in that famous ff book, but i don't think that version of eternity has ever been seen in a book outside that singular issue. it's not something we'll ever agree on as we can both use the exact same scans to support why we think we're right, nor is this the place to really carry the discussion. the marvel cosmology thread in the comics section has already addressed all of this in far more depth anyway. i left off that discussion because it was never gonna be resolved either.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f95/t566750.html


basically this entire conversation is off topic, and not really irrelevant to the thread.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
Then this isn't Marvel comics, and therefore can't be argued with.

This is why I label that "Eternity" you refer to as "Leo's" Eternity.

So, this single ambiguous reference trumps everything else, before and after?

I disagree ... and it's a "pocket," not an "ENTIRE" universe like in the Dr Strange scan.

And I still disagree.

On top of that, whatever's going on there isn't natural. Like a "tumor."

But, if you do persist on pushing this idea,
I'll return with 10-20 scans on panel and bios
where the Negative Zone is outside 616 in it's own standalone universe. This is a Negative Zone fact since its inception.

Let me know.

Heck, the Negative Zone is permeated with anti-matter, no freakin way 616 wants anything to do with that.

Cool, I just proved that to be a fallacy, but as you wish.

The Eternity in the Dr Strange scan didn't care about the 616 reality dying,
and also called it an infinitesimal part of itself.

But again, as you wish.

Not in Marvel comics, but as you wish.

I completely disagree.

I can and have proven the facts many times, but right now, from the replies, I see it as pointless.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
yeah, like i said, you're not changing my mind and i'm not changing yours. thumb up

i am LEGIT curious about one thing in particular you said though:





what are you saying? 616 eternity DOESN'T embody all of time in the universe....? that goes against, well, pretty much everything ever written about eternity.... confused

and because i'm just hanging out and watching the olympics today:

let's say we look at a what if where parker isn't bit by a spider but instead becomes one of the ff. we both agree that's an alternate earth, and it's conceptual entities are all alternate versions as well, including eternity. least i think we agree on that..... but then that parker goes on to discover the negative zone, and needs the help of that planet's thor to stop that annihilus. now all of a sudden we have an alternate nine worlds, and an alternate negative zone.

now, even if you don't think the nine worlds and the negative zone are actually part of that alternate eternity, it's still clear there is some sort of synergistic relationship between eternity and all these other worlds. i mean clearly there would also be an alternate dr strange (with an alternate eye) and an alternate dark dimension, an alternate jugg's so an alternate realm of cyttorak. all of these things stem from an alternate eternity. so, because of the creation of this alternate eternity, we suddenly have an alternate collection of realms (nine worlds)/dimensions (dark dimension)/universes (negative zone). and what do all of these alternates, together, comprise? (say it with me...) an alternate multiverse. agree or no?



nah, you haven't. no one has, or can, because that ff version has only been specifically named that singular time.

quote:
tbh, there's really nothing you CAN show (believe me, mrm has tried and tried over the years, and he's shown much of what you've shown in the last posts) save this: a scan that specifically states ETERNITY encompasses ONLY the 616 universe and NO OTHER. even his bio references his representing everything in all planes of existence. show me a scan that says he SPECIFICALLY does not represent ANY other dimension (even something like asgard which would then relegate eternity to being nothing more than a small piece of the far greater nine worlds.....a silly realization imo) and i will happily concede. until then, i'll continue to believe what was shown, and forego having to connect distant dots, or having to try and deduce which version of eternity is being spoken of. hope this didn't sound snarky. not my intent. just that mrm and i have covered almost all of this over many threads, many times and until i see the specific proof i mentioned, it's not likely my opinion will change on the subject of eternity's multiversality.




quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
Yea, the one that then elaborated and concluded it was a MULTIVERSE instead. beyond question to me? Indeed. thumb up

Cool, it doesn't change anything, I agree,
especially the fact that the Beyonder scene in no way resembles the Carey explanation.

I don't care about Lucifer tbh,
it's just that certain trolls in here were lowballing and trollin Marvel so I wanted to sting em,
so I found Mike Carey's personal input on the Lucifer creation scene, and what a "multiverse" is to him.

laughing out loud ... kinda true.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
elaborated on and concluded? where did that happent? and you never answered my questions from my earlier post... sad


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Old Post Aug 15th, 2016 05:25 PM
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leonidas
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ok, so, i've said it a million times, but terminology in comics is MEANINGLESS. saying eternity represents a UNIVERSE is equally meaningless. marvel may have an "official" definition, but that by no means implies all writers KNOW that definition, or adhere to it. here is an oft-debated scan:

http://static7.comicvine.com/upload.../3140518-24.jpg

imo, this is simple--it implies our "universe" is comprised of....many layers. meaning that there are different dimensions to our universe. in effect, our universe is a multi-verse.

again, an oft-debated scan:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads...lluniverses.jpg

whole universe inside eternity. some will claim this is the legendary multi-eternity of FF fame:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads...doft6_super.jpg

some will claim that 616 eternity IS multi-eternity! confused

my thoughts on the issue have always remained the same: 616 eternity is a "multiverse" unto itself. that term is misleading though. by "multiverse" i mean that 616 is comprised of more than just earth's little universe. it has other universes/dimensions/realities "associated" with it. 616 eternity does NOT embody parallel earths of course--those earths are included within ALTERNATE eternities (the number of which are infinite). but each of those parallel earths comes with its own set of alternate universes/dimensions/realities that are spawned as a direct result of an alternate earth.

for example--an alternate earth necessitates alternate asgards, dark dimensions, negative zones, etc....

in effect, that means that whenever an alternate earth pops up, it is associated with.....an ALTERNATE MULTIVERSE.

now, afaik, there is nothing that shows the nine worlds (of which asgard is one) is or is NOT a part of eternity. i think this scan IMPLIES that fact though:

http://imgur.com/a/CEFLV

that's thor narrating, and taking us up the ladder. to me, when he talks about eternity representing the "UNIVERSE ENTIRE" it would be silly to think he was EXCLUDING himself and his asgardian people from that description... so, to me, that is circumstantial proof that asgard and the nine worlds ARE included as part of ETERNITY.

and he didn't say UNIVERSE and mean MULTIVERSE, because he clearly mentions multiverse when talking about the LT.

so, yes, i think there is PLENTY of evidence to suggest that ETERNITY (616 and other individual aspects) ARE in fact multiverses unto themselves. the TERM multiverse may be a poor choice though because of the connotations it carries--a LOCALIZED MULTIVERSE? has other universes ASSOCIATED with it?? i dunno exactly what the best way to describe it is. i just know there is plenty of proof to suggest that 616 eternity represents more than JUST earth's little universe. smile


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Old Post Aug 15th, 2016 06:09 PM
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leonidas
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now, something new. ima quote my man basilisk here because he sums up some of my own thoughts nicely AND raised another issue i wanted to bring up, and a bit of the discussion that follows:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by basilisk
Personally I don't see the IG as 'omniversal' as such, just multiversal purely in the sense that it operates within 616 and its associated universes, dimensions and realities. Just as say an earth 7598777 IG operates within its versions of the universe, the Dark Dimension, Asgard, and so on, but not into 616. And certainly not into even more distant mega/omniverses like say DC or the equivalent of WF Mxy's 'real world'.

The whole time travel thing is a mess that started out with a mechanism of allowing writers freedom to have stories set in the future without having to worry about later continuity, and to block paradoxes. It works for that. It doesn't tell us anything about the cosmology and structure of space-time in the Marvel Universe.

Does a universe such as 616 have its own infinite series of possible alternate futures branching off from it, alongside but entirely separate from say 8272's own infinite series of alternate futures? As in mathematics where you can have an infinite series within an infinite series? Possibly, because a universe where Wolverine was killed at birth can't lead to a future where Wolverine grew up as he did in 616. It's quite possible the IG only grants access to the 616 series of infinite futures - so yes, the IG can give you access to "a million tomorrows" without necessarily influencing beyond the scope of 616. In that sense Thanos's words might well be true without him grasping the full truth.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
If it only operates in 616, then its universal since the 616 Reality is a SINGLE Universe.

Not a Multiverse in any sense of the word.

Dark Dimension/Asgard and so on
are Pocket-Realms/realities located OUTSIDE 616,
but withIN the Multiverse that houses the infinite Alternate/Parallel UniverseS.

Mxy only destroyed DC in WF. Nothing more.

The 616 IG's power was devastating Reality across all creation,
it even surpassed the Omniverse and bashed its way into the Beyond Realm,
which is located beyond the end of the Marvel Omniverse.

I'm not saying it's the same thing as what Mxy did,
I'm saying none of them have affected other OmniverseS.

Actually, I'm not sure what's your point here friend.

But in Marvel Comics,
any Reality representing a different point in time than the Present,
is located in a separate Parallel Universe outside 616.

The Present ... as in 2012 ... (616)

Any other time before or after (Alternate Dimension/Universe) outside 616.


now, this bit about time, and any time before or after the present is "outside" 616 is not correct. or rather, it is not ALWAYS correct at least.

in the SPIDERVERSE arc, it is stated definitively that the 2099 "universe" (formerly universe 928) IS the 616 universe, only decades in the future:

here we see miguel (spidey 2099) returned to the 616 universe, jsut along a different point in time:

http://imgur.com/a/R4FyS

and here is editorial confirmation of the fact that the 2099 universe IS the 616 universe, just a future version:

http://imgur.com/a/nsDnG

so, no, not all futures are alternate futures. which makes sense. if every facet of the past and the future were alternates, that would mean eternity (the embodiment of ALL of time in a "universe" would only represent....the present? confused because if he also represented the PAST and the FUTURE (which would obviously include ALL of time) then he'd represent...alternates of himself?? a clear paradox.

but paradox averted since we now know a "future" CAN be the same reality as a "present".

thumb up


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Old Post Aug 15th, 2016 06:29 PM
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leonidas
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now, just to throw some other things out there (monkeywrenches in the works) that may stir up discussion and throw into question ANY attempt at a "THEORY OF EVERYTHING" in marvel:

here we have the CELESTIALS being shown as responsible for the creation of the MULTIVERSE:

http://imgur.com/a/KAWuU

http://imgur.com/a/LlOLj

beyond that, we see in the SPIDERVERSE, that it is the MASTER WEAVER who pulls at the great web and controls the way the multiverse unfolds. here we see him actually pluck an entire universe out of harm's way, removing it from the greater multiverse proper and placing it within it's own pocket reality:

https://retconpunchdotcom.files.wor...1/rebellion.jpg

so, the celestials created the web? the big bang that created eternity created the celestials? the master weaver wove eternity into existence??

lol

as you can see, marvel is FAR from an orderly "creation", and getting hung up on terminology and speaking in terms of absolutes, is the surest way of being wrong. lol

feel free to comment on anything i've brought up, safe in the knowledge that i am not claiming to be right with what i've said. i've simply tried to find the simplest, most straight-forward way to explain the BULK of on panel evidence that is often used to explain the the nature of marvel's cosmology. to me, if you have to connect a whole bunch of different dots from issues that are often decades apart to explain a possible point.....well, there should be an easier way.

i invite all discussion. smile


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Old Post Aug 15th, 2016 06:58 PM
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Last edited by Astner on Aug 15th, 2016 at 08:16 PM

Old Post Aug 15th, 2016 08:11 PM
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Galan007
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
k, so because of some cool discussion brought up in this awesome thread:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...mp;pagenumber=7

props to galan for raising the sh!t again, thumb up
Glad I could help.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
my thoughts on the issue have always remained the same: 616 eternity is a "multiverse" unto itself. that term is misleading though. by "multiverse" i mean that 616 is comprised of more than just earth's little universe. it has other universes/dimensions/realities "associated" with it. 616 eternity does NOT embody parallel earths of course--those earths are included within ALTERNATE eternities (the number of which are infinite). but each of those parallel earths comes with its own set of alternate universes/dimensions/realities that are spawned as a direct result of an alternate earth.
There is also this scene, in which Dormammu states that Eternity is the most powerful entity in all the multiverse:
http://i.imgur.com/Z129it6.jpg

Then Dormammu states that he and Umar can use Eternity's power to reshape the universe:
http://i.imgur.com/tOjZQCT.jpg

Then Dormammu merges with Eternity, and, to paraphrase, states that he is comprised of numerous dimensionS and universeS that are constantly being born and collapsing... And that is just a fraction of Eternity's totality:
http://i.imgur.com/GD3I0JN.jpg

...But then there are several other comics that describe Eternity solely as a universal entity(*see pretty much anything Starlin has written, for example*) So who the f*ck knows..?


It's hysterical when people act like Marvel cosmology isn't as big of a mess as DC's, lol.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Astner
I thought Kang created the multiverse with his time travel shenanigans.
I thought Sise-Neg created Marvel... No wait, I thought Reed and the Alien Entity created Marvel... Etc. laughing out loud

As mentioned above: Marvel cosmology is a giant clusterf*ck. thumb up


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Old Post Aug 16th, 2016 07:10 PM
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leonidas
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quote: (post)


meh, i think this only shows that the kangs ADDED to an already existing multiverse. even she said each kang preferred their own paradigm. there would already have existed several universes with different kangs who traveled across the multiverse and added more earths by splintering timelines.

least that would be my interpretation. /shrug


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Old Post Aug 16th, 2016 08:45 PM
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Astner
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I'm with Galan here. It's presented like a bunch of isolated continuities that's treated like a single continuity without addressing the plot holes that appear when you force them together.


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My visit with Vorador only strengthened my resolve. His power uncontested by mortals, he had fallen to another enemy. Decadence has claimed itself many a great warrior.

Old Post Aug 16th, 2016 09:15 PM
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leonidas
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
Glad I could help.

There is also this scene, in which Dormammu states that Eternity is the most powerful entity in all the multiverse:
http://i.imgur.com/Z129it6.jpg

Then Dormammu states that he and Umar can use Eternity's power to reshape the universe:
http://i.imgur.com/tOjZQCT.jpg

Then Dormammu merges with Eternity, and, to paraphrase, states that he is comprised of numerous dimensionS and universeS that are constantly being born and collapsing... And that is just a fraction of Eternity's totality:
http://i.imgur.com/GD3I0JN.jpg

...But then there are several other comics that describe Eternity solely as a universal entity(*see pretty much anything Starlin has written, for example*) So who the f*ck knows..?


lol that arc was fukin hilarious. umar getting it on with hulk was brilliant.... even that discussion you posted where she calls him an imbecile is good stuff.

of course, playing devil's advocate, the other side would say that was obviously the mutliversal form of eternity.

then i say this was the same eternity dormmy faced years ago and that was WAYYYY before there was ever even the THOUGHT of a multiversal eternity.

then they say, well, yeah, universal and multiversal forms of eternity share the same consciousness so clearly multi-eternity would know and remember dormmamu....

ugh. laughing out loud

quote:
It's hysterical when people act like Marvel cosmology isn't as big of a mess as DC's, lol.

I thought Sise-Neg created Marvel... No wait, I thought Reed and the Alien Entity created Marvel... Etc. laughing out loud

As mentioned above: Marvel cosmology is a giant clusterf*ck. thumb up [/B]


absolutely. i think the best w can do is try and find the most CONSISTENT form of cosmology that marvel applies.

looking back at this thread though, i can say i learned a bunch of stuff, and i think the discussion stayed pretty civil.

mrm sort of came around to the idea that eternity IS a form of multiverse (even if it's just a separate universal eternity and associated pocket realms), and i think opr also came to that same conclusion. between you and opr you definitively proved universes can indeed exist within universes and the "spheres within spheres" model is completely supportable.

i've since come around to the idea that the microverse would likely survive the destruction of 616 eternity, though i'm still not 100% sure of that....

it's hard to believe really, that in marvel there hasn't been any stories that really deal with the relationship between say, asgard and eternity, or even, specifically, the exact nature of 616--it's limits and just what it makes up.

i think above all, it's that 616 definition that really mucks things up.

to change things up a bit, and maybe get some new discussion going (and you invisible lurkers out there--yeah you, i'm talking to you!) feel free to join in.

i'd like to explore the meaning of 616. a couple questions to get things started:

(1) what comprises the "616" iyo?

and in a somewhat related question (2) if 616 eternity were destroyed, what "associated" dimensions do you think would be left behind? for example, if 616 eternity died, would the 616 nine worlds be left behind?

to my mind, they def would get taken out WITH eternity (proving further the 'multiversal' nature of eternity). what about mephisto's realm? would it go too? i'd say yeah, mephisto would be f'd too....

what other realms do you closely associate with eternity's make up? which realms WOULD survive (not counting of course any alternate versions of any relam....)?


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Old Post Aug 16th, 2016 10:54 PM
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Mr Master
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Damn Leo, it's like yur having a discussion with a make-believe me. laughing out loud
I didn't even know my name was splattered across this new page.

Cute, but I'm not in the mood.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas

in the SPIDERVERSE arc,

it is stated definitively that the 2099 "universe" (formerly universe 928) IS the 616 universe,

only decades in the future:

here we see miguel (spidey 2099) returned to the 616 universe, jsut along a different point in time:

so, no, not all futures are alternate futures.

but paradox averted since we now know a "future" CAN be the same reality as a "present".

Imo, you see it to uniformly sometimes old friend, or perhaps, too realistically.

Anywho, the moment u jump out of 616 into any point in time ... forward or backward,
u end up in an alternate universe representing whatever point in time you jumped to.

As for the Spidey joint ...

------------------------------------------

Spider-Man 2099, is from one of the countless possible futures of 616: ... (Reality-98120)

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix6/...20spiderman.htm

------------------------------------------

But, like all potential futures of 616, ... this "future" is situated in another universe: ... (Reality-98120)

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix5/earth-98120.htm

------------------------------------------

Earth-98120 is in the category listing page of Marvel's "Alternate Earths" ...

http://www.marvunapp.com/list/appalte.htm

------------------------------------------

As you can see ... Spiderman 2099's reality is located in a separate universe. thumb up

So NO, a "future" CAN'T be the same reality as the "present" ... not until time-space has reached that "future."

Then ... we find out which "future" (of the countless possible futures) is the real "future."


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Last edited by Mr Master on Aug 17th, 2016 at 02:01 AM

Old Post Aug 17th, 2016 01:53 AM
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Galan007
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
i'd like to explore the meaning of 616. a couple questions to get things started:

(1) what comprises the "616" iyo?

and in a somewhat related question (2) if 616 eternity were destroyed, what "associated" dimensions do you think would be left behind? for example, if 616 eternity died, would the 616 nine worlds be left behind?

to my mind, they def would get taken out WITH eternity (proving further the 'multiversal' nature of eternity). what about mephisto's realm? would it go too? i'd say yeah, mephisto would be f'd too....

what other realms do you closely associate with eternity's make up? which realms WOULD survive (not counting of course any alternate versions of any relam....)?
My opinion basically mirrors yours. Eternity = a boundless universe, which is also comprised of its closely associated dimensions/realms and such(ie. Asgard, Meph's realm, Nightmare's dimension, etc. etc.) Hence its "many-layered" nature.

Then there is a "Multi-Eternity", who embodies a boundless multiverse(ie. infinite singular Eternities.)

And now we have an "Omni-Eternity", who is only viewable from outside the Marvel continuum, and evidently represents the totality of creation(ie. potentially infinite Multi-Eternities -- assuming the current Omniverse is still comprised of infinite multiverses of course.) Admittedly, though, Ewing seems to use the term 'omniverse' in the same way some writers use the term 'multiverse', so who knows..? Again, Marvel cosmology is a cluster.

Anywho, if you destroy 616 Eternity, I also believe its associated realms/dimensions would be wiped out as a corollary. I liken the prime universe to a lake, and its associated realms to divergent streams. The streams are ultimately 'fed' by the lake -- so if the lake dries up, the streams will dry up as a result. Conversely, if you only dry out one of the streams, the lake itself will be left perfectly full/intact.



All of that being said, I am also of the opinion that Eternity is meant to represent a universal embodiment, unless the writer of that particular comic/arc gives us a legitimate reason to assume we are dealing with a Multi or Omni-Eternity. Starlin, as an example, almost always writes Eternity in a universal manner -- as do quite a few other writers. I only mention this because some people like to act as though any time Eternity appears on panel, he is a bonafide multiversal being. I totally disagree with that, personally.


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Last edited by Galan007 on Aug 17th, 2016 at 02:20 AM

Old Post Aug 17th, 2016 02:06 AM
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leonidas
MWHAHAHAHA!

Gender: Male
Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
Damn Leo, it's like yur having a discussion with a make-believe me. laughing out loud
I didn't even know my name was splattered across this new page.

Cute, but I'm not in the mood.

Imo, you see it to uniformly sometimes old friend, or perhaps, too realistically.

Anywho, the moment u jump out of 616 into any point in time forward or backward,
u end up in an alternate universe representing whatever point in time you jumped to.

As for your Spidey example ...

------------------------------------------

Spider-Man 2099, is from one of the countless possible futures of 616: (Reality-98120)

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix6/...20spiderman.htm

------------------------------------------

But, like all potential futures of 616, ... this "future" is situated in another universe: (Reality-98120)

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix5/earth-98120.htm

------------------------------------------

Earth-98120 is in the category listing page of Marvel's "Alternate Earths" ...

http://www.marvunapp.com/list/appalte.htm

------------------------------------------

So NO, the "future" CAN'T be the same reality as a "present" ... not until time-space has reached that "future."

Then ... we find out which "future" (of the countless possible futures) is the real "future."


ha! maybe, but i don't think i said anything too inflammatory. thumb up

anyway, yeah, that is how futures USED to be viewed i guess. but not sure how you can argue with that scan that clearly says spidey 2099 was returned, very specifically, to 616--EARTH 616 circa 2099, to be even more specific still.

it was even reaffirmed in the editorial page: "2099's future is in fact the 616."

no way to view it "overly realistically." your older marunapp links aren't enough to contradict something both stated clearly (by no less than a member of the cap britain corps, someone exceedingly familiar with the workings of the multiverse) then clarified in the editorial page.

not sure what to tell you--call it a retcon if you want? i'm just going by what it says on the pages. /shrug


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Old Post Aug 17th, 2016 02:12 AM
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Mr Master
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
ha! maybe, but i don't think i said anything too inflammatory.

not sure what to tell you--call it a retcon if you want?
i'm just going by what it says on the pages. /shrug

I wasn't offended good friend, just tickled in a good way. smile

As for the discussion: It is 616, but it's what 616 would be in the year 2099. (possibly that is)
It's no different that the GOTG Year (31st century) being an alternate Eternity, representing Earth-691.
Vance Astro travelled back to 616 and met his younger self.
But I'm sure you know the GOTG timeline is another "Eternity." I you know.

You see, the only reason it's an "alternate" "future" is cause it's being visited prematurely,
that is, before it's "time" has arrived as the "present."
If a story is auto designated in a "future" timeline like Spidey-2009, like GOTG-3000+AD,
then it's auto designated in another universe.

And logically so, cause there's an entire universe dedicated to the "present" time, that's 616.

Here's a few questions of my own good friend Leo:

To better understand my point imo I'll put it this way:

1) If Spidey is on "Earth" in the year 2099, why isn't he on "Earth" in the year 2016?
In fact, the Earth in the year 2099 has gone to shit.

We know that's NOT "present" "Earth's" condition.
2) So where is the "Earth" that represents Spidey's world located, in the 616 universe?
3) Do you believe if you travel far enough (via distance) you'll reach Spidey's "Earth?"
4) Do you believe that's how it works? The universe's "time" is stretched out ...
... and if you travel in a certain direction far enough, fast enough,
you'll eventually reach either the "past" or the "future?"

---------------------

Here are the answers:

1) Because even though Spidey's "Earth" represents "present" "Earth" in a "future"
Spidey's "Earth" is a setting taking place like 80+ yearS from now, which hasn't even come into existence in real-time.
So of course any portrayals of this "future" time would be another universe representing said "future" time,
since there's a whole other universe back there representing another time, namely, the "Present." (616)
The kicker is, that they are both the exact same universe, all the "FutureS" of 616 , ARE 616,
but they have different outcomes, and this is what differentiates them.
We'll never know which one of the countless # is the true "future."

But again,
if they are visited prematurely, then you enter an alternate reality, even though it's possibly 616 in the "future."
The same principal applies if some "future" cat decides to visit the "past" and ends up in 616 the "present,"
this cat came from an alternate world.

2) No where.
Because the "Earth" with mainstream Spidey, Avengers, X-Men, etc is occupying that space right now.

3) That's impossible, so I hoping no one does.

4) In Marvel, it doesn't. Impossible actually imo. If anyone believes otherwise, they'll have to prove it.


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Old Post Aug 17th, 2016 05:10 AM
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leonidas
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
I wasn't offended good friend, just tickled in a good way. smile


thumb up

quote:
As for the discussion: It is 616, but it's what 616 would be in the year 2099. (possibly that is)
It's no different that the GOTG Year (31st century) being an alternate Eternity, representing Earth-691.
Vance Astro travelled back to 616 and met his younger self.
But I'm sure you know the GOTG timeline is another "Eternity." I you know.


i get that, and know that the gotg future is indeed a different universe. thumb up

quote:
Here's a few questions of my own good friend Leo:

To better understand my point imo I'll put it this way:

1) If Spidey is on "Earth" in the year 2099, why isn't he on "Earth" in the year 2016?
In fact, the Earth in the year 2099 has gone to shit.


this one doesn't make sense. he's not in 2016 earth because...he's in the future? i think the issue is with your definition vs my definition of what constitutes 616. i'll elaborate in a bit.

quote:
2) So where is the "Earth" that represents Spidey's world located, in the 616 universe?


it's in the future.... or in the past if you're talking about 616 spidey.

quote:
3) Do you believe if you travel far enough (via distance) you'll reach Spidey's "Earth?"


no, it's not a place you can walk or fly to. you'd need something or someone that can time travel, or access different points along a timeline (as cap britain spidey could do).

quote:
4) Do you believe that's how it works? The universe's "time" is stretched out ...


yes, i think that is exactly how it works. we know that eternity represents/embodies TIME in his actuality (and sometimes ALL of reality depending on who is writing i guess). i could post scans to support that but i think you know that already.

now this brings us to the idea of what that means--well, if he represents ALL time in a universe, that means past present AND future. it doesn't make sense imo to say he represents....just the present? if i went back 1 second in time, your thought is i am now in a different universe that is no longer 616? or if i go ahead 1 second, i'm again in an alternate universe? that would limit eternity to existing AS the present, and nothing more. so why/how does he embody "ALL" of time? (infinity is supposed to embody all of space...)

way i see it is there IS a definite past AND future in all universes. we don't know (or, up until now, haven't been privy to) what the TRUE future of the universe is. but a true future must exist. maybe in the current civil war arc ulysses is privy to the "true" future path of time? we see people able to read futures all the time. sometimes the futures are right, other times its described as possible.

in any event, 2099 is apparently viewed differently by marvel--with that issue (at least pre sw) it seems marvel has signed off on the fact that 2099 IS the "Real" future, hence, the very specific designation of 2099 AS 616. it wasn't a mistake, nor was it random as it was further elaborated on in the editorial page.

i see 616 eternity differently than you do. since i believe he represents the past present and future, then...there must be a TRUE future that he represents. it seems marvel has designated the 2099 AS that true future (unlike, say, the gotg future). again, maybe that isn't the way it USED to be, but....those scans either have to be dismissed out of hand or taken at fact value. i think the latter is fine because it fits with my understanding of what eternity 616 represents.


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Old Post Aug 17th, 2016 02:58 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
My opinion basically mirrors yours. Eternity = a boundless universe, which is also comprised of its closely associated dimensions/realms and such(ie. Asgard, Meph's realm, Nightmare's dimension, etc. etc.) Hence its "many-layered" nature.

Then there is a "Multi-Eternity", who embodies a boundless multiverse(ie. infinite singular Eternities.)


thumb up

quote:
And now we have an "Omni-Eternity", who is only viewable from outside the Marvel continuum, and evidently represents the totality of creation(ie. potentially infinite Multi-Eternities -- assuming the current Omniverse is still comprised of infinite multiverses of course.) Admittedly, though, Ewing seems to use the term 'omniverse' in the same way some writers use the term 'multiverse', so who knows..? Again, Marvel cosmology is a cluster.


it seems like it should be simple if terminology were used consistently. omni-eternity is a great term that if used regularly would help clear SOME things up....maybe.

quote:
Anywho, if you destroy 616 Eternity, I also believe its associated realms/dimensions would be wiped out as a corollary. I liken the prime universe to a lake, and its associated realms to divergent streams. The streams are ultimately 'fed' by the lake -- so if the lake dries up, the streams will dry up as a result. Conversely, if you only dry out one of the streams, the lake itself will be left perfectly full/intact.


that analogy works as well as any of the others in this thread. lol thumb up



quote:
All of that being said, I am also of the opinion that Eternity is meant to represent a universal embodiment, unless the writer of that particular comic/arc gives us a legitimate reason to assume we are dealing with a Multi or Omni-Eternity. Starlin, as an example, almost always writes Eternity in a universal manner -- as do quite a few other writers. I only mention this because some people like to act as though any time Eternity appears on panel, he is a bonafide multiversal being. I totally disagree with that, personally. [/B]


i agree with this. my own thought as always been that when he acts in a 'universal' capacity, that does not preclude him from still being a 'multiversal' entity in the sense that i've been describing him all along. sometimes eternity is written as a compassionate being. other times he is a whiny b!tch. i think starlin did more to f up cosmology than he did to help it, tbh.

what are some of the other realms you associate with 616? when i think of 616 i think of ALL of marvel--discounting alternates of any kind. the main...continuity that most marvel stories take place in. i mean you can find 616 and alternate versions of almost EVERY character in marvel. 616 and alternate dormmamu for example. alternate vishanti. name it and there is an alternate form of it. i think that any 616 designation implies they are part of or at least associated with, 616 eternity. would you agree?

marvel people don't apparently like the term though (from wiki):

Former Marvel Editor in Chief Joe Quesada and Executive Editor Tom Brevoort have each stated their dislike for the term Earth 616.

I can tell you for sure that those of us actually working on the books virtually never use the term ó and I kind of wince inside whenever I hear somebody use it. It just sounds so stupid to my ear, and so counter to the kind of mindset we try to foster in regard to the stories we create and the thinking we try to employ.

ó Marvel Executive Editor Tom Brevoort
I never use it, I hate the term pure and simple and agree with Tomís assessment of it. I canít remember ever hearing it in the office and only really see it used online for the most part. I think the term really came into vogue when the Ultimate Universe came into prominence, but in my world, the language and distinctions are simple, there is the Marvel Universe and the Ultimate Universe. Anything other than that reeks of all that DC Earth 1, Earth 2, Earth Prime stuff which Iíve never really taken to, but then again, I got into DC when they got rid of all that stuff so it was from and for a different era than my own.

ó Marvel Editor-in-Chief Joe Quesada


not sure why. i think the term helps keep things....tidier. easier to keep track of. maybe it's just me. if they don't like it, they shouldn't have made things so impossible to follow. lol


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Old Post Aug 17th, 2016 03:13 PM
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@anyone really--how many times has 616 (the actual term) been used, and used what does it generally describe in comics? i know the cap brit corps used it with some frequency, but it's been used in other books as well. anyone have any in-book definition of the 616?


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Old Post Aug 18th, 2016 04:36 PM
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I'm not sure whether or not these are in-comic references, references found in question and answer-sections, or references from handbook excerpts; but here's a list of references.


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Old Post Aug 18th, 2016 07:19 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
@anyone really--how many times has 616 (the actual term) been used, and used what does it generally describe in comics? i know the cap brit corps used it with some frequency, but it's been used in other books as well. anyone have any in-book definition of the 616?


It used to be referenced on a regular basis in Captain Britain related books and Exiles from what I remember. FF and X-Men titles referenced it on a few occasions but not as frequently. Current Marvel uses it in a bigger capacity and across a bigger array of titles from what I can tell.

And it was used to refer to the "present" mainstream marvel reality if that's what you're asking. It was never used in the same context as your spidey instance, at least not from what I remember. Although I always thought that alternate futures weren't necessarily alternate realities; it all depends on the writer's intentions and several instances in comics support this stance (we debated this before).

Old Post Aug 19th, 2016 12:33 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by operator616
Although I always thought that alternate futures weren't necessarily alternate realities; it all depends on the writer's intentions and several instances in comics support this stance (we debated this before).


lol we did? i don't remember that discussion at all....i agree though--i think 616 has sort of taken on a bigger meaning as well.


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Old Post Aug 19th, 2016 02:02 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
lol we did? i don't remember that discussion at all....i agree though--i think 616 has sort of taken on a bigger meaning as well.


We as in the KMC community, not you and I. Still, feel free to read the thread if you're interested:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...mp;pagenumber=3

I provided two instances where futures don't equate to alternate realities (and there are more; you just provided proof yourself). Make no mistake though, in most cases they are, but on the other hand we also have a few instances where they're not treated as such. That's why I base my opinion on writer's intention based on the context of the story to determine in which way it is being used. That's also the main reason why I see Sise Neg universal - because based on the context of the story, the writer treated the history of the universe as one single timeline, imo.

Old Post Aug 19th, 2016 02:47 PM
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