Tbh, doesn't (or shouldn't) matter how close Superman is to the Sun - in the vacuum of space, as soon as he leaves the atmosphere he should get the full benefits of the sun dip, assuming he takes the UV rays.
Well I dunno just how strong and durable Uncle Sam is, but he does have superhuman strength/durability. And GL Power Rings can provide automatic protection(at least one-time per-charge) from at least Planet-Busting force when it comes to lethal harm. And Superman still killed him with one punch(although it wasn't insta-kill, he died within moments).
But you'd know that if you read and/or paid attention to my entire post.
While there is at least one example showing that Superman gets some boost from being out of Earth's atmosphere, there's nothing whatsoever indicating he gets the full-benefit of being in the Sun just because he's out of Earth's atmosphere. Abhi pointed-out an example, and we also see this in the TRIAL OF SUPERMAN storyline, in the beginning when Superman's virtually powerless because of Parasite(and is a husk of himself) and he gets healthy again after being in the Sun for a moment, but is not back to full power, and takes time to get back to full power, then greater than full power, by being near the Sun.
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Superman was not trying to kill at the time, he was trying to make "Doomsday" suffer. And that's nowhere near Superman going all-out with his Heat Vision. Fail, Carter. Yes, Carter, not Carver.
Last edited by Delta1938 on Aug 15th, 2012 at 07:55 AM
Yah, I know, I've seen the scans, that's why I said it SHOULDN'T make a difference - but it obviously does. Writer error, perhaps?
If he's soaking up UV rays, in space, with a vacuum, there's literally nothing to block the rays from the sun. So if you're just outside our atmosphere, you still get the full effect of the UV rays as you would if you were standing on the sun. Well, pretty much all, there might be stray particles here and there.
But I guess its moot, because we've seen in comics that he gets a bigger amp the closer he is to the sun.
I guess I can see about the being near the Sun part, there logically shouldn't be a difference between being outside Earth's atmosphere and being near the Sun, but are you trying to argue there shouldn't be a difference between being in a vacuum and being IN the Sun? That I cannot agree is logical. He'd be in direct contact with the source of his power. And I'm pretty sure that there's a huge difference between the energy output actually inside the Sun and what's in a vacuum. For example, the Sun produces gamma rays in it's fusion reaction in the core, but there's little to no gamma ray emission from the Sun itself after you get a certain distance past the core. Apparently scientists can't even decide if the Sun EMITS(not produces) gamma rays or not.
Uncle Sam is a class 100 brick who has gone toe to toe with people like black adam and superman on ocassions and has done well. What is special about it was that he was wearing the classic "infinite charge" gl ring of hal jordan which specifically protects wearer against mortal harm and its auto-shields have almost never been broken. The feat is even more notable since sam had the backing of willpower of an entire nation worth of people.
D, you're not stopping to take into account that, nearer the sun, Superman is collecting more rays than he would receive on Earth, blocked OR unblocked. The Earth receives a smaller percentage of sunlight than, say, Mercury, owing to sheer distance. I'll draw a diagram and make it clearer if time permits or if I can't find one online to illustrate, if time permits.
Relevance to this thread, though: Yes, Superman got a LOT more sun exposure in Sacrifice219, which translates into a LOT more power than he would normally have. Which translates into Wonder Woman taking a far more potent blast from Superman than she would on Earth, even if we DON'T take into account it was near-focused, and right in her face.
And yes, given that Hulk, even before his WorldBreaker incarnation, was shown as more durable than Wonder Woman has been portrayed, it makes sense that this attack would fail to have solo lethal effect on the Hulk, either.
(SHRUGS) Dunno if it was ever specified. I just assume the full spectrum Sol emits/produces. But Hell, he's absorbed electricity, Strange Visitor's energy form, heat and PRESSURE from Earth's core, and "anti-sunlight," and has shown to be powered from blue and white stars, and I think orange stars too(although it's possible I'm mixing this up with an episode of SUPERFRIENDS). So I guess the real answer is, Superman can absorb whatever the Hell the writer wants except red solar energy.
Except, you'd have to explain if they were so near the Sun, why the box holding the Kryptonite didn't get destroyed.
Oh and since you appear to be arguing again that Superman has to be Sun-Amped to hit with that level of force, here he's throwing a mass far larger than Wonder Woman the same distance when WEAKER than normal.
Rucka never meant them to get near the sun, it was an artist error. Not to mention that there was not even a single hint that he was amped in sacrifice like Superman MOT 13 which is what makes it even more suspect. What most people don't know that in the first printing of WW 219 superman literally shrugged off every attack of diana, then rucka changed it to save his pet character from humiliation. There are only a few copies of that printing and I am trying to find them.
Hulk has just strength to hold back, Superman has a host of other powers, including a game-ending speed advantage. Which you can't get around AT ALL since CIS being off means you can't even argue how characters fight in-character. Of course, much like before, I'm expecting you to ignore all evidence disproving your claims and just say Superman loses.
You say Hulk has only strength to hold back, and called it irrelevant in your original post as if Superman has not, in fact, been beaten to death by physical strength, as was famously the case of Doomsday, a fairly obvious Hulk analog.
As for the "can't argue how characters fight in-character", you're wrong there, too, since Pr stated the following way back on page 2 of this thread:
Yes, but added to the CIS off, is the fact that he is willing to kill. That essentially removes the largest in-character trait of Superman.
And THAT is the main gamechanger here. Even with Doomsday, when he was beaten to death (a weaker version of Superman, mind you) he wasn't going for the kill until the very end.
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Last edited by DarkSaint85 on Aug 15th, 2012 at 08:34 AM
Also people act like that was a low showing. The same doomsday was so tough that superman was hurting his hands punching him and shrugged off a guardian's suicide attack/killed hundreds of gls and injured thousands.
I have to disagree with Pr. The whole reason people argue that against certain points is often because it's "not in-character" for him/her/it to do so. CIS exists because of a character fighting in-character, so it being off takes away the "in-character" excuse that one wouldn't use that tactic.
But even if we pretend you're correct, that Superman wouldn't blatantly and devastatingly exploit this speed advantage off the bat, Pr's own words do indicate it'd be used more quickly. And considering the force that Hulk produced compared to what a WEAKENED Superman endured, it wouldn't matter if he didn't speed-blitz off the bat. And I proved that Superman is capable of punching with force that would kill Hulk in a few punches, if not with one blow. Two things you're of course going to ignore.
And Doomsday being similar to Hulk is irrelevant since A: Doomsday is superior to most incarnations of Hulk, and B: as others have pointed-out, Superman's grown in power since. AND that Superman's going for the kill from the start. So that's a fail argument. Superman beat Doomsday to death while dying himself in a relatively short number of blows. Superman won't be waiting for ever, taking damage before he tries to kill Hulk in this scenario.
The same Doomsday who was owning Beetle, Booster, Ice, Fire, Guy(with Sinestro's Power Ring), J'Onn(as Bloodwynd) and Maxima, with ONE HAND TIED BEHIND HIS BACK. Before he ever came across Superman. And was getting stronger as the fight went on.
People tend to not think about that.
Last edited by Delta1938 on Aug 15th, 2012 at 08:42 AM
No one yet has proven that to be the case, though.
I still don't have an answer from anyone as to why Superman won't initially tackle Hulk head-on as he does the majority of his foes.
I have yet for anyone to tell me why he won't be caught by Hulk swinging away or thunder-clapping, given that even Pr admitted Superman wouldn't plausibly be blitzing from the start.
I also have yet to hear why he is going to stay conscious past the first few hits, given that he did not do so against Konvickt, or Atlas, if memory serves correctly, or Doomsday, who actually killed him just by using physical strength to batter him to death.
And I see all this talk about Superman enduring explosions, but riding out the shockwave of a blast is treated as something very different in comics than the concussion of a focused punch or kick.
Wonder Woman detonated a thermonuclear warhead without flinching during Gail Simone's run. Could she treat the equivalent force coiled behind a metahuman's fist the same way?
Nothing has been said to convince me Superman won't be a quick knockout victim to CISless Bruce.
Wait where did Pr said that Superman wouldn't be blitzing from the start?
He only said that CIS-off, he won't speed blitz off the bat - he'd use it sooner than normal Supes, but it won't be the first tool in his arsenal. I agree with this.
Blood-lusted, out for the kill, Superman? Different story. Even CIS-less Superman has been seen pretty regularly in comics, but how often have you seen a Superman willing to kill somebody?
I don't think I've ever been this quoted before...
A few things:
Firstly, everyone, be on topic and don't be personal, or simply don't post at all.
Second, anyone who wants to ask me a question is welcome to do so; I like being approachable. What I don't like is the chance that people take things I say out of context or use them as ammunition against other people.
Third... There really needs to be a DC equivalent to Avengers Alliance.
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Aug 15th, 2012 07:39 AM
